[PF] Synthesist Summoner Question

[Feint's End]

I'll play a Synthesist Summoner in an upcoming PF game (mainly due to the large group I try to stay away from screwing action economy even more) and came across a problem.

Which base saves does the Summoner have in Eidolon Form? RAW there is nothing on this and RAI it would make sense to have the WIL of the Summoner and the REF and FORT of the Eidolon (new body but old mind). I could see that seeming "Overpowered" though. It is the most logical though.

What are your opinions on this? I feel like retaining the original saves is somewhat unlogical but getting the Eidolon ones makes no sense neither (I mean ... you have worse wil saves even though there is literally no change to your mind?). Have I missed a line? Because except for saves the Synthesist seems quite well written to me.

[Snowbluff]

You use the summoner's base saves. They get bonuses on saves as they level, which means their saves are near the Good Progression before their stats. No change needed.

[grarrrg]

What he said.
Nothing says that you do get the Eidolon saves, thus you do NOT get the Eidolon saves.
You start with your good Will save.
Your Eidolon will replace your DEX and CON with its, which won't be much of a boost at low levels.
At 4th level Shielded Meld kicks in, giving you +2 Shield AC, and +2 Circumstance to all Saves.
And then at 12th level Greater Shielded Meld boosts that to +4 Shield AC, and +4 Circumstance to Saves.

So your Saves before stats/equipment/etc... will be at 10/10/16 at level 20.


Because except for saves the Synthesist seems quite well written to me.

*uncontrolled laughter*

[Snowbluff]

*uncontrolled laughter*

*nods* It's pretty vague at places.

I think it should have been like "You gain the basic form (# of legs) and evolutions of your eidolon" and then had a bonus progression. I've also heard it suggest that you get the eidolon's stats -10 as a bonus.

[Feint's End]

Nothing says that you do get the Eidolon saves, thus you do NOT get the Eidolon saves.

Well on another note it tells you what you loose (namely skills and feats) and therefor I think it is totally acceptable to think things unnamed in the text don't change from the basic Eidolon.

For example the Synthesist Eidolon still gets the Attribut Increases due to this line
In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability. If we apply this line on Saves then you get the Eidolon's saves when you fuse.

What you shouldn't forget is that the Eidolon is still an Outsider with it's own thinking. You merely fuse with it and therefor take control of it's body (reason why it doesn't get feats and skills but can still use the Skilled-Evolution to increase your own skills)

RAW seems pretty clear to me and I also think it is RAI

[papr_weezl8472]

Well on another note it tells you what you loose (namely skills and feats) and therefor I think it is totally acceptable to think things unnamed in the text don't change from the basic Eidolon.

The archetype quite clearly applies various features of the Eidolon to the Summoner, rather than the other way around. It doesn't need to specify something as different from a standard Eidolon; it needs to specify it as different from a standard Summoner.

A Synthesist's Eidolon simply isn't an independent, thinking entity. It has no mental scores, skills, feats, or actions of its own.

If we default to "in all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal Eidolon ability", then we don't get anything else, because the standard Eidolon ability does not change the Summoner's statistics (saves or otherwise) at all.

[Feint's End]

A Synthesist's Eidolon simply isn't an independent, thinking entity. It has no mental scores, skills, feats, or actions of its own.

If we default to "in all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal Eidolon ability", then we don't get anything else, because the standard Eidolon ability does not change the Summoner's statistics (saves or otherwise) at all.

Yes the Eidolon is still an independent, thinking entity but not when summoned and fused with the Summoner (after they fused they are both one being ... outsider and humanoid). Read the lore text.

The Eidolon doesn't change the Summoner's statistics. That's where you are wrong. They fuse into one being gaining parts from both sides hence the reason the fused being gets the Eidolons physical stats and the saves. Nothing by RAW indicates the Eidolon is different from the original in any other way than what we have written in the text (namely fusing their ability scores, saves, no feats and skills for the Eidolonpart (obviously since just one controlling part).

[Lord Vukodlak]

If we apply this line on Saves then you get the Eidolon's saves when you fuse.

With a standard summoner the Eidolon has its own saves, and thus the line, "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability " means the Eidolon retains its own saves while fused to the summoner and the summoner retains his.

Normally what saves the Eidolon has wouldn't be very relevant while fused to the summoner but a dismissal or banishment could easily effect the Eidolon but not the summoner.

[charcoalninja]

With a standard summoner the Eidolon has its own saves, and thus the line, "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability " means the Eidolon retains its own saves while fused to the summoner and the summoner retains his.

Normally what saves the Eidolon has wouldn't be very relevant while fused to the summoner but a dismissal or banishment could easily effect the Eidolon but not the summoner.

Other than the line about them being one being and unable to be targeted separately. Dismissal and banishment have their own rules because they are one entity. The summon has no mind otherwise it could take actions and it cannot.

The writing of Synth summoner isn't bad the only thing terrible with it is how SKR decided it should work, ie: standard healing spells don't restore eidolon hp which is hogwash.

[grarrrg]

What you shouldn't forget is that the Eidolon is still an Outsider with it's own thinking. You merely fuse with it and therefor take control of it's body
...
Yes the Eidolon is still an independent, thinking entity but not when summoned and fused with the Summoner (after they fused they are both one being ... outsider and humanoid). Read the lore text.

Unless you have high enough level magic to communicate across Planes, then you never actually have mental contact with your Eidolon.
For all intents and purposes, your Eidolon is NOT a thinking independent being. Yes, "technically" it is, and "flavor" supports this, but for actual accessible USEFULNESS it is brain dead.




They fuse into one being gaining parts from both sides hence the reason the fused being gets the Eidolons physical stats and the saves. Nothing by RAW indicates the Eidolon is different from the original in any other way than what we have written in the text (namely fusing their ability scores, saves, no feats and skills for the Eidolonpart (obviously since just one controlling part).

Added emphasis.
NOTHING in the text says you get it's saves.
NOTHING in RAW says you get saves.
And yes, Nothing in RAW says you _don't_ get the saves either.
It's a blank spot.
If you can convince your DM you get its saves, good for you.
The general consensus here is that you do NOT get the saves, because it does not say you get the saves.

[Feint's End]

Unless you have high enough level magic to communicate across Planes, then you never actually have mental contact with your Eidolon.
For all intents and purposes, your Eidolon is NOT a thinking independent being. Yes, "technically" it is, and "flavor" supports this, but for actual accessible USEFULNESS it is brain dead.

Added emphasis.
NOTHING in the text says you get it's saves.
NOTHING in RAW says you get saves.
And yes, Nothing in RAW says you _don't_ get the saves either.
It's a blank spot.
If you can convince your DM you get its saves, good for you.
The general consensus here is that you do NOT get the saves, because it does not say you get the saves.

I agree on the first part and it isn't really important here but it can explain the reason why the fused Eidolon/Summoner retains the ability boosts and the saves. Now lets get to RAW

Hmmm first of all you don't need to emphasize that much. I feel a bit offended by that to be honest and would much rather have your view explained to me than just to say "this is that way and this is the other way ... go figure". Now that might have not been your intention but I thought I'd just let you know.

I read some articles about this on google (should have looked about it earlier ... sorry) but couldn't find a really fullfilling answer. It makes sense to keep the Summoners saves to a certain degree although then again not getting tougher when you fuse is a bit of a wash and RAW is still not clear to me. Probably the most logical solution would be to get the Ref, Fort of the Eidolon and the Wil of the Summoner (not RAW mind you).

In the end I feel like you should ask your DM with a stronger arguement for the Summoner's saves staying in both forms.

Also as has been mentioned before I don't think the Synthesist's wording is bad (at least not pos errata) except for the saves.

[Nihilarian]

The fact that there's even a question in your mind that the Synthesist gets the Eidolon's saves (and that you can't find a "fulfilling answer") should make it seem poorly written to you. In this case, though, you're wrong. The synthesist is very clear on the stats you get from the eidolon while being vague about some more basic things (if your eidolon is a quadraped and you don't take the Limb (arms) evolution, do you still have your hands?). The synthesist gets: Physical ability scores (if this increases your Constitution, does that affect your base Hit Points in addition to your THP? If it decreases your Con...), the Eidolon's HP as THP, The eidolon's Attack Bonus (so a synthesist 4/Fighter 16 has a BAB of... 3? I believe this was clarified in a FAQ, but that's not an argument for it being well written.), and gains the Natural Armor bonus and modifiers to ability scores detailed on the Eidolon chart. It gets a bit more wordy after that (special abilities, evolutions, etc), but nowhere does it say, or even imply, that the synthesist gains the eidolon's base saves. Now, your saves can still increase, because your stats are being changed, but you do not gain the base saves of the eidolon.

It may make sense to you, but there is nothing in the text to suggest that.

And the synthesist was poorly written when it first came out. I don't know if it still is, as I haven't checked the errata. The version (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) on the PFSRD seems to not have changed much, so as far as I can tell it's still poorly written.

[Feint's End]

The fact that there's even a question in your mind that the Synthesist gets the Eidolon's saves (and that you can't find a "fulfilling answer") should make it seem poorly written to you. In this case, though, you're wrong. The synthesist is very clear on the stats you get from the eidolon while being vague about some more basic things (if your eidolon is a quadraped and you don't take the Limb (arms) evolution, do you still have your hands?). The synthesist gets: Physical ability scores (if this increases your Constitution, does that affect your base Hit Points in addition to your THP? If it decreases your Con...), the Eidolon's HP as THP, The eidolon's Attack Bonus (so a synthesist 4/Fighter 16 has a BAB of... 3? I believe this was clarified in a FAQ, but that's not an argument for it being well written.), and gains the Natural Armor bonus and modifiers to ability scores detailed on the Eidolon chart. It gets a bit more wordy after that (special abilities, evolutions, etc), but nowhere does it say, or even imply, that the synthesist gains the eidolon's base saves. Now, your saves can still increase, because your stats are being changed, but you do not gain the base saves of the eidolon.

It may make sense to you, but there is nothing in the text to suggest that.

And the synthesist was poorly written when it first came out. I don't know if it still is, as I haven't checked the errata. The version (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) on the PFSRD seems to not have changed much, so as far as I can tell it's still poorly written.

The SRD one is already uptdated with the errata.

I think the main difference is the way how you and I percieve the Synthesists Eidolon: you see it as a completely different ability and I see it as a modified basic Eidolon.
The basic Eidolon has saves and there is no change to that therefor if you wear your Eidolon you get those. Anyways the discussion is not going anywhere and to be honest I agree with you (and the others here for that matter) that you should use the summoners saves (I just wanted to make a point that you could discuss it further).

I also don't think Evolutions and Special Abilities are worded badly since it quite clearly states them
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions so I still stand to the point that aside from the Saves (and like we just talked about argueably not even those) the post errata Synthesist is quite well written.

[charcoalninja]

The SRD one is already uptdated with the errata.

I think the main difference is the way how you and I percieve the Synthesists Eidolon: you see it as a completely different ability and I see it as a modified basic Eidolon.
The basic Eidolon has saves and there is no change to that therefor if you wear your Eidolon you get those. Anyways the discussion is not going anywhere and to be honest I agree with you (and the others here for that matter) that you should use the summoners saves (I just wanted to make a point that you could discuss it further).

I also don't think Evolutions and Special Abilities are worded badly since it quite clearly states them so I still stand to the point that aside from the Saves (and like we just talked about argueably not even those) the post errata Synthesist is quite well written.

It doesn`t matter how you are deciding to view it. Since the Eidolon fusion does not grant you the summoner the ability to use the summon`s saves, it means you don`t get the saves and they are ignored because you and the Eidolon cannot be targeted seperately.

[Feint's End]

It doesn`t matter how you are deciding to view it. Since the Eidolon fusion does not grant you the summoner the ability to use the summon`s saves, it means you don`t get the saves and they are ignored because you and the Eidolon cannot be targeted seperately.

I already agreed with you. I still think an argument using RAW interpretation can be made.

[Nihilarian]

Forget fluff. Forget "what makes sense" from a flavor stand point. Look at the mechanics. It refers you to a list of features and tells you which features you can use. Physical ability scores, Base Attack Bonus, Evolutions, etc. These features are explicitly called out in the mechanical text as features you gain access to.

You could make a case that the eidolon retains it's own saves because of the line at the bottom. "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability." But you, the synthesist, do not have access to this save and cannot use it in place of your own. Your eidolon might retain it, but cannot be targetted. The only gray area is Banishment and Dismissal. In these cases, the DM may "allow" it.

I'd like to see the synthesist on the SRD to see if there's anything in there that would contradict me. Do you have a link?

[Feint's End]

Forget fluff. Forget "what makes sense" from a flavor stand point. Look at the mechanics. It refers you to a list of features and tells you which features you can use. Physical ability scores, Base Attack Bonus, Evolutions, etc. These features are explicitly called out in the mechanical text as features you gain access to.

You could make a case that the eidolon retains it's own saves because of the line at the bottom. "In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability." But you, the synthesist, do not have access to this save and cannot use it in place of your own. Your eidolon might retain it, but cannot be targetted. The only gray area is Banishment and Dismissal. In these cases, the DM may "allow" it.

I'd like to see the synthesist on the SRD to see if there's anything in there that would contradict me. Do you have a link?

Here (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) you go

[Nihilarian]

Here (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) you goWait, that's the version with errata? That's the version I was using to make my points. If that's the errata'd version, then yes, the Synthesist is poorly written, pre or post errata. It leaves you with too many questions (again, hands? HP? BAB?). I'm not saying the idea or concept is bad, the mechanic's are just poorly written.

[Snowbluff]

(again, hands? HP? BAB?).

Your HP would change. Your BAB is the eidolon's, which is full but on lower HD. The hands thing is the one that bothers me.

Also, if I have existing natural attacks, can I use them while fused? I say yes, but the rules for it are weird if I don't get my hands.

[Feint's End]

Also, if I have existing natural attacks, can I use them while fused? I say yes, but the rules for it are weird if I don't get my hands.

That's also bothering me. I mean you can make a point as written for both to be possible but I don't think it is intended or should work in the slightest. Think about a goblin fusing into a large Eidolon. How should his hands reach the outside of the Eidolon? On the other hand how should a human in a medium size quatruped Eidolon put his arms? You can make a point for both sides using common sense and therefor I'd just ignore it. Going back to RAW.

I think the intend is to loose access to their own body since they are completely surrounded by the Eidolon and in fact take control of it. No armcontrol of your original body, no natural attacks. You could make a point using RAW (not sure though) but that would make no sense for the natural attacks and depending on your size and the size of the Eidolon sense for your bodyshape or not.

[Yanisa]

Your HP would change. Your BAB is the eidolon's, which is full but on lower HD. The hands thing is the one that bothers me.

Also, if I have existing natural attacks, can I use them while fused? I say yes, but the rules for it are weird if I don't get my hands.

The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obe) deals with some of these questions... kinda... not that you like the answers and probably not even who wrote said answers...

The hands thing is still barely answered, all we can learn from the FAQ that the Eidolon needs the limbs evolution with the appropriate limbs to be able to cast spells... Which limbs I don't even know, perhaps legs and feet are good enough.

Natural attacks are according the FAQ available, just like a normal Eidolon. Limbs be damned I guess.

I bet many other vague points aren't answered either, but I do wanna ask, what are your questions precise? Or what are the common other problems?
I am planning a Synthesist myself and the more I can preemptively tackle and talk over with my DM, less the frustration will be during the game, I hope.

P.S. All the Summoners FAQ questions are about the Synthesist! And there are a lot! Talk about poorly written. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

The hands thing is still barely answered, all we can learn from the FAQ that the Eidolon needs the limbs evolution with the appropriate limbs to be able to cast spells... Which limbs I don't even know, perhaps legs and feet are good enough.

You need Arms.
"If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, "


Natural attacks are according the FAQ available, just like a normal Eidolon. Limbs be damned I guess.

If you have an existing natural attack, you still need the appropriate Eidolon body part in order to use it.
"If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own ...natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks."

Including the whole "can I still use Manufactured weapons?" part is just stupid, but...
Of course, SKR then goes on to say you cannot "Sword and Claw with only 2 hands", completely forgetting that Eidolons can put Claws on their feet...

I also believe that there used to be a FAQ that said if you had a Flight speed before, that you could still use in while "suited up".
That was taken down for some reason...wonder why...*doesn't really wonder at all*.


P.S. All the Summoners FAQ questions are about the Synthesist! And there are a lot! Talk about poorly written. :smalltongue:

Yup.