Martial Artist Question

[Shadowscale]

I am very much of a fan of the unarmed and unarmored aspect of the monk class, not so much however the ki based eastern flavored abilities such as never aging and along the like.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/martial-artist

With Pathfinder's martial artist archetype however I feel like it's the class I always wanted to play, but it doesn't adapt very well to 3.5 D&D as well due to the monk revamp pathfinder did. 3.5 Not having the ki pool or monk feats which this archetype replaces therefore not knowing how to properly adapt it..
Is there anyway the folks here could help me apply this archetype in terms of d&d?

Also I was trying to build an annihilator glass cannon build that sacrifices defense for all out offence with this archetype and was thinking of using a small sized race for the novelty of it.

I know all this is far from optimized, but I would really appreciate any help with cross class or prestige options or any feats to be able to make a decent martial artist that hits hard and is preferably small sized.

I would appreciate any help and I'm sorry if none of this is feasible or anything along the like.

Also if this thread is in the wrong place, please let me know.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

No, it works just fine in 3.5. Just make Exploit Weakness replace the 3e monk's Ki Strike instead of the Pathfinder monk's Ki Pool. It won't be overpowered, the monk in 3e is already weak.

Being Small-sized is fine as long as you can find a race with no Strength penalty. The reduced damage die is usually an average of only 1 point of damage, and you get +1 to melee accuracy (which is great when you're flurrying at low BAB).

[Shadowscale]

Thanks for the reply. So I think I should be able to pretty easily apply the archetype.

For race I think I'll go for tall fellow halfing as I like their flavor and how they're essentially small elves.

Is there anyway someone could give me multiclass or prestige options to make this build somewhat effective I know a martial artist and especially a halfing one is not exactly easy to optimize, but if anyone had any suggestions on feats or what to do class wise with levels I'd really appreciate it. I love to play unique things like this, but still like to be able to be at least close to as useful as a vanilla fighter maybe. Sad enough to say.
Maybe around tier 4ish if at all possible with this horrible base.:smalleek:

[Sian]

I'd look at the feats Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk for abusing your small size, ideally by Hin Disciple Substitution levels in Champion of Valor. And one way or another get some way of Reduce Person / Compression (magic/psionic) so you can use the same thing against mediumsized creatures, and some sneakattack for kneestriking

[Shadowscale]

I'd look at the feats Underfoot Combat -> Confound the Big Folk for abusing your small size, ideally by Hin Disciple Substitution levels in Champion of Valor. And one way or another get some way of Reduce Person / Compression (magic/psionic) so you can use the same thing against mediumsized creatures, and some sneakattack for kneestriking
I really do appreciate the help with this it looks to be all I should need to be semi useful thank you.

I was also curious with how the martial artist goes off the assumption that stunning fist is a class feature and not a bonus feat you pick how would that apply with the template on the 3.5 monk due to I'd want to take the Underfoot Combat at first level with the substitution, but the archetype writes as you automatically have stunning fist and provides abilities that go off of it. Could I just take stunning fist later on as a monk bonus feat without the perquisites?

Any suggestions for picking up on the casting needed? Any classes other than core that give access to those spells preferably as an ability or magic as I am not a personal fan of psionic?

Sorry for all the questions i just want to be at least passable combatant primarily at least a marital artist for the base. I'm just not the best when it comes to feat knowledge or good classes to cross or prestige into.

Any other help would be greatly appreciated I love to have options for fun unique characters in 3/3.5.

I'll start building the character in a few days for my session so I really appreciate all the input and advice.

[Urpriest]

Would you be open to using other 3.5 classes to mimic the concept, rather than porting in the Martial Artist from Pathfinder?

A Swordsage (Tome of Battle) with the Unarmed Variant, taking maneuvers from Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, and some of the less ki-flavored maneuvers from Diamond Mind, would achieve your goal of a nonmagical martial artist without having to retrofit a PF class for 3.5. You could even take two levels of Monk at the beginning for the Hin Fist stuff.

[Shadowscale]

Would you be open to using other 3.5 classes to mimic the concept, rather than porting in the Martial Artist from Pathfinder?

A Swordsage (Tome of Battle) with the Unarmed Variant, taking maneuvers from Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, and some of the less ki-flavored maneuvers from Diamond Mind, would achieve your goal of a nonmagical martial artist without having to retrofit a PF class for 3.5. You could even take two levels of Monk at the beginning for the Hin Fist stuff.

Yeah, I'd be open to the concept, would I Be able to take all 3 substitution levels, and take stunning fist later than first level though? Is there anyway you could give me a sample way to start building and what to have and take for maybe the first 7 levels or so between the two classes and racial sub, I've not against using a swords age, just would like to know more about em to fully optimize with cooks concept while still taking the 3 racial subs and all.

I'd really appreciate the help, I'm usually mostly core, but am tryi g to branch out and optimize my favorite things, small sized, and unarmored/unarmed

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I'd be open to the concept, would I Be able to take all 3 substitution levels, and take stunning fist later than first level though? Is there anyway you could give me a sample way to start building and what to have and take for maybe the first 7 levels or so between the two classes and racial sub, I've not against using a swords age, just would like to know more about em to fully optimize with cooks concept while still taking the 3 racial subs and all.

I'd really appreciate the help, I'm usually mostly core, but am tryi g to branch out and optimize my favorite things, small sized, and unarmored/unarmed

If you want to avoid having to figure out the conversion from PF Martial Artist, then you're probably going to have to use as few Monk levels as possible so that you don't pick up any supernatural abilities.

I'd advise just sticking with two Monk levels. You don't get the later Hin Disciple levels, but you do get Underfoot Combat as a bonus feat, and if you also take the substitution levels from Races of the Wild you can have Skirmish +1d6 instead of Flurry of Blows, and Weapon Finesse for your second level bonus feat, both of which can be handy for this sort of build.

The rest of your levels can then be Swordsage (so Monk 2/Swordsage X).

You won't have Stunning Fist without taking the feat, but you probably shouldn't have it anyway, since in D&D it's strongly tied to the whole "ki" thing, with feats like Pharaoh's Fist (or Elemental Fist in PF) emphasizing that aspect.

You can still do "pressure point" stuff with Swordsage. Strikes like Disrupting Blow from Diamond Mind work for that theme, as do a variety of Strikes from the more supernatural-themed Shadow Hand.

[Shadowscale]

If you want to avoid having to figure out the conversion from PF Martial Artist, then you're probably going to have to use as few Monk levels as possible so that you don't pick up any supernatural abilities.

I'd advise just sticking with two Monk levels. You don't get the later Hin Disciple levels, but you do get Underfoot Combat as a bonus feat, and if you also take the substitution levels from Races of the Wild you can have Skirmish +1d6 instead of Flurry of Blows, and Weapon Finesse for your second level bonus feat, both of which can be handy for this sort of build.

The rest of your levels can then be Swordsage (so Monk 2/Swordsage X).

You won't have Stunning Fist without taking the feat, but you probably shouldn't have it anyway, since in D&D it's strongly tied to the whole "ki" thing, with feats like Pharaoh's Fist (or Elemental Fist in PF) emphasizing that aspect.

You can still do "pressure point" stuff with Swordsage. Strikes like Disrupting Blow from Diamond Mind work for that theme, as do a variety of Strikes from the more supernatural-themed Shadow Hand.

Interesting, I will go with this build and see how it plays, once I get the character rolled up I'll post it here.

Thanks for all the help this seems real fun to play.

[Shadowscale]

With this build can I take the first level hin fist and race of the wild first two levels? Also would the monk and swordsage levels stack for unarmed damage?
Lastly does a swordsage get a boost from being unarmored or must wear light armor even with the unarmed archetype where the lose the use of it?

Sorry just trying to hammer out some details.

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe you have to choose either Hin Fist or Racial Substitution Levels from Races of the Wild for each level. You could have one Hin Fist and a late Racial Sub, but you can't get both sub levels for the same level of monk.

Races of the Wild one that trades FoB for Skirmish involves a total change in combat style, as well. It's eminently possible, just you have to make sure that all of your tradeoffs are synergizing well in combat. I suggest trying to acquire a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) ASAP, which will allow your monk to move up to 10' every time s/he takes a 5-foot step. That allows you to qualify for Skirmish every round as a free action, which is very, very useful.

If you're talking about the other Racial Sub Level, I believe that synergizes just fine.

Swordsage and Monk damage progression should stack, but I'm sure someone else more expert in ToB can better handle this and the next question.

[Shadowscale]

I believe you have to choose either Hin Fist or Racial Substitution Levels from Races of the Wild for each level. You could have one Hin Fist and a late Racial Sub, but you can't get both sub levels for the same level of monk.

Races of the Wild one that trades FoB for Skirmish involves a total change in combat style, as well. It's eminently possible, just you have to make sure that all of your tradeoffs are synergizing well in combat. I suggest trying to acquire a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) ASAP, which will allow your monk to move up to 10' every time s/he takes a 5-foot step. That allows you to qualify for Skirmish every round as a free action, which is very, very useful.

If you're talking about the other Racial Sub Level, I believe that synergizes just fine.

Swordsage and Monk damage progression should stack, but I'm sure someone else more expert in ToB can better handle this and the next question.
Oh alright, so that way I'll get the hin fist first level feat and skirmish at level two, but I'll miss out on the free weapon finesse due to only taking two levels of monk. I think. Thanks for the feat I'll be sure to take that. Also since second level monk gives evasion and swordsage eventually gives evasion do they stack for improved evasion and if so what happens when I get to swordsage's improved evasion if I already have it?

[Red Fel]

With regard to Unarmed Strike stacking, it depends. The Unarmed Swordsage adaptation is not a properly statted variant, so it is subject to some debate and analysis. A general consensus, albeit not a perfectly unanimous one, is that Unarmed Swordsage grants IUS, plus unarmed strike damage as a Monk of Swordsage level. As I recall, most classes (with the exception of Shou Disciple) that advance US progression stack with Monk US. I would therefore rule that Unarmed Swordsage US stacks with Monk US progression.

With regard to being unarmored, it is generally somewhat understood, if not technically RAW, that the Swordsage Wis-to-AC bonus was meant to apply to light or no armor, since the alternative is fairly absurd. However, since the Monk gains the bonus when unarmored anyway, and the two don't stack (because the same ability gained from two separate classes will not generally stack), it's a non-issue.

With regard to Evasion and Improved Evasion, I don't believe the one upgrades into the other. Some abilities, such as Uncanny Dodge, explicitly upgrade into their improved form in the ability description; I don't see such a description on Evasion. Further, generally speaking, if you get the same ability from two different classes, it does not stack; it is, effectively, a wasted ability. I would therefore argue that Monk Evasion does not stack with Swordsage Evasion, and Swordsage Evasion is not upgraded to Improved Evasion.

[Urpriest]

Oh alright, so that way I'll get the hin fist first level feat and skirmish at level two, but I'll miss out on the free weapon finesse due to only taking two levels of monk. I think. Thanks for the feat I'll be sure to take that. Also since second level monk gives evasion and swordsage eventually gives evasion do they stack for improved evasion and if so what happens when I get to swordsage's improved evasion if I already have it?

Actually, you wouldn't get the Skirmish, because you can't take first level twice. You'd get the Hin Disciple stuff at first level, and the Weapon Finesse at second level.

My earlier advice was advising you to do something a bit dubious, and for that I apologize. Basically, if Hin Disciple or the Races of the Wild thing were Alternate Class Features rather than Substitution Levels then you could take both at first level since they affect different parts of the class. However, RAW, Substitution Levels take up the whole level, so you couldn't gain both first level abilities. That said, the rules for Substitution Levels are kind of murky, and many DMs allow you to treat them like Alternate Class Features, gaining both as long as they trade out different things. You can talk to your DM and see if he'll allow it, but I'll admit it's not quite RAW.


With regard to Unarmed Strike stacking, it depends. The Unarmed Swordsage adaptation is not a properly statted variant, so it is subject to some debate and analysis. A general consensus, albeit not a perfectly unanimous one, is that Unarmed Swordsage grants IUS, plus unarmed strike damage as a Monk of Swordsage level. As I recall, most classes (with the exception of Shou Disciple) that advance US progression stack with Monk US. I would therefore rule that Unarmed Swordsage US stacks with Monk US progression.

With regard to being unarmored, it is generally somewhat understood, if not technically RAW, that the Swordsage Wis-to-AC bonus was meant to apply to light or no armor, since the alternative is fairly absurd. However, since the Monk gains the bonus when unarmored anyway, and the two don't stack (because the same ability gained from two separate classes will not generally stack), it's a non-issue.

With regard to Evasion and Improved Evasion, I don't believe the one upgrades into the other. Some abilities, such as Uncanny Dodge, explicitly upgrade into their improved form in the ability description; I don't see such a description on Evasion. Further, generally speaking, if you get the same ability from two different classes, it does not stack; it is, effectively, a wasted ability. I would therefore argue that Monk Evasion does not stack with Swordsage Evasion, and Swordsage Evasion is not upgraded to Improved Evasion.

As Red Fel mentions, Unarmed Swordsage takes a bit of work to make it function properly, since the description is vague on exactly how it works. It probably should stack, and the Wis-to-AC should probably apply in no armor, but yeah, these things are somewhat poorly edited.

Since many sources of Evasion explicitly say they upgrade to Improved Evasion, I'm with Red Fel that you need something else to make that work. There are lots of Alternate Class Features for Monks, I'd recommend trading Evasion out for something else. The best option I can think of is Invisible Fist, but that's probably too supernatural for your taste. I'd look at the Monk list here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=lcdfavattfougtckjl7so6hs82&topic=7908).

[Shadowscale]

With regard to Unarmed Strike stacking, it depends. The Unarmed Swordsage adaptation is not a properly statted variant, so it is subject to some debate and analysis. A general consensus, albeit not a perfectly unanimous one, is that Unarmed Swordsage grants IUS, plus unarmed strike damage as a Monk of Swordsage level. As I recall, most classes (with the exception of Shou Disciple) that advance US progression stack with Monk US. I would therefore rule that Unarmed Swordsage US stacks with Monk US progression.

With regard to being unarmored, it is generally somewhat understood, if not technically RAW, that the Swordsage Wis-to-AC bonus was meant to apply to light or no armor, since the alternative is fairly absurd. However, since the Monk gains the bonus when unarmored anyway, and the two don't stack (because the same ability gained from two separate classes will not generally stack), it's a non-issue.

With regard to Evasion and Improved Evasion, I don't believe the one upgrades into the other. Some abilities, such as Uncanny Dodge, explicitly upgrade into their improved form in the ability description; I don't see such a description on Evasion. Further, generally speaking, if you get the same ability from two different classes, it does not stack; it is, effectively, a wasted ability. I would therefore argue that Monk Evasion does not stack with Swordsage Evasion, and Swordsage Evasion is not upgraded to Improved Evasion.
Interesting, would the armor class get boosted from dual stats if kung fu genius is taken?

[Urpriest]

Interesting, would the armor class get boosted from dual stats if kung fu genius is taken?

Probably not. The stacking issue is with the name of the class feature. Both are named AC Bonus, and in general people interpret the rule as meaning that you can't stack untyped bonuses if they come from abilities with the same name.

[Shadowscale]

Thanks for consistently helping me with this, you really have to optimize these kind of builds to keep up with a druid wizard cleric party.

[Red Fel]

Thanks for consistently helping me with this, you really have to optimize these kind of builds to keep up with a druid wizard cleric party.

Pretty much. It's unfortunate, because melee really is (and should be) a lot of fun, but it takes a lot of work to be as good in melee as the squishy robed spellcasters who spend their years reading books or meditating rather than physically training themselves.

... Not that I'm bitter.