Wizard Vs. Druid Through the Levels

[Feilith]

My DM and me were talking about the most powerful core classes, I was in favor of the Druid while he liked the Wizard. I know their both T1 and are both game breaking in their own right. Druid starts out definitely on top, But I'm realizing that Wizard's spell list at 20 is just over whelming.

So I'm curios, when does the Wizard over take the Druid in terms of power?

Let's assume both are in a vacuum for consistency.

[Flickerdart]

For the first few levels it's very much rocket tag, as both characters have encounter-ending spells, but the druid's are better and his backup options are also more solid. The druid pulls ahead a bit one Wildshape appears and he no longer cares about physical stats; Polymorph isn't as good, though Celerity helps wizards keep up the rocket tag game. Once we see 5th level spells appear, though, it's all over - Lesser Planar Binding, Teleport, etc take the cake, and then all the other cakes, and then hypothetical quantum cakes.

[Ghost Nappa]

For the first few levels it's very much rocket tag, as both characters have encounter-ending spells, but the druid's are better and his backup options are also more solid. The druid pulls ahead a bit one Wildshape appears and he no longer cares about physical stats; Polymorph isn't as good, though Celerity helps wizards keep up the rocket tag game. Once we see 5th level spells appear, though, it's all over - Lesser Planar Binding, Teleport, etc take the cake, and then all the other cakes, and then hypothetical quantum cakes.

So to Summarize, Druids from levels 1-8; Wizards 9+.

[Flickerdart]

So to Summarize, Druids from levels 1-8; Wizards 9+.
It's not really that clear-cut. Even before 9th, wizards have a higher optimization ceiling than druids (Abrupt Jaunt, Rope Trick, Alter Self, we're all looking at you). They also have a lower optimization floor, so in the hands of inexperienced players a druid will always win (mostly because of the pet).

[TrueJordan]

Possibly, although with proper optimization, a druid 20 can be just as powerful as any wizard 20, with this one advantage: http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/frostfell--1313/
Probably one of the most powerful spells in the game. At level 20, it covers 400 square feet (Erm, as I'm typing this I realize that the range is only 300 ft, but it should be able to cover 400... whatevs), anyone caught within makes a fortitude save or die, and if not, take 20d6 of damage. Now, a druid with empower and that feat that lowers one metamagic level by one can do really scary things with that.

And this is not including the Planar Shepherd 'Realm of Dream' Cheese, though that's hilariously powerful, it still can't attack an IotSV of the same levels.
So there's that.

[Story]

That's far from the most powerful spell in the game.

[Talya]

Awaiting eggynack.

[Fouredged Sword]

The problem is that, at lower levels, the wizard must deal with an animal who runs up to his square and keeps him from casting, possibly starting a grapple to prevent him from moving away.

Druids just rock the action economy at low levels because they are two characters.

Once the animal companion becomes less of an issue due to cheep flight and summoning, the wizard wins out.

[Rubik]

The problem is that, at lower levels, the wizard must deal with an animal who runs up to his square and keeps him from casting, possibly starting a grapple to prevent him from moving away.

Druids just rock the action economy at low levels because they are two characters.

Once the animal companion becomes less of an issue due to cheep flight and summoning, the wizard wins out.A better measure of the usefulness of classes is in a gaming situation, rather than a one-on-one death battle.

Druids excel at gishing, battlefield control, and easy action economy, as well as some healing. Wizards dabble in those easily enough (though not as well, considering they require more effort), but they excel at just about everything else.

Who is more useful depends on what is needed in the campaign, really.

[Talya]

I truly believe you guys are underestimating how awesome the druid spell list is at all levels. It's not that I don't think the wizard eventually pulls ahead -- they do gain access to more high level cheesy tricks. But the druid is better than most people assume. A druid without an animal companion or wildshape still has a stunningly capable spell list.

This post is merely an introduction to eggynack's inevitable detailed explanation of these very points.

[Flickerdart]

At the levels that the druid's dog is an overwhelming force, the Wild Cohort or the Animal Companion ACF isn't that far behind, if the wizard wants to bother. Although then you get a Pokemon Trainer battle instead of a normal fight...which would actually be an interesting twist on arena matches. Proxy fights!

[NotScaryBats]

A Druid can also change her spells out for free every day to completely new ones. This will usually not be a huge deal, because the wizard has a lot of spells in her book, free scribe scroll feat, etc, but it can be depending on the campaign.

I've had some DMs that hate the idea of dropping enemy spellbooks, spell stores, and the like, so a wizard is severely restricted in those circumstances vs a druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, this should be an interesting discussion, and I look forward to developments (and eggy!). I thought I'd make two points.

1.) The wizard has theoretical access to all wizard spells. In actuality, he needs to buy them or, at higher levels, summon things that can teach him. This is irrelevant later on when money isn't an issue, but it's worth noting that druids have access to every druid spell ever printed the moment they have access to that level of spells. Not a big issue, but if we are charting day-by-day power growth, the druid jumps much faster and with almost no need of help from WBL or npcs.

2.) Higher level druid spells v higher level wizard spells: While there is some trash in the Sor/Wiz list, I bet dollars to donuts that it can't compare with the trash in the druid spell list at high levels; there are gems, but there are plenty of spells that are 3-4 levels higher than they should be. Druids also miss out on a lot of the wizard mainstays (gate, wish, etc), and while enough shapechange can take the sting out of much of that, there is just way, way, way more Sor/Wiz stuff to choose from at high levels. Someone can use one of the spell filters to check, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sor/Wiz list is four times larger starting at level 7.

[Vinyl Scratch]

A wizard gets the best spells in the game, nut outside alternate class feature replacements and such, doesn't get much else.

A druid has a somewhat less powerful spell list, but gets a bunch of cool toys and abilities right out of the box as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's also interesting to note how druid changed from 3.0 to 3.5, mainly through the changes to animal friendship spell and AC rules. In 3.0, long-term animal minionmancy was more of a thing. Not that it can't be done now, ofc, but druids are substantially behind wizards when it comes to long-term minions. Which is sad.:smallannoyed:

[animewatcha]

How is this for a question ( s ). Through RAW, tricks, or whatever else, can the wizard gain access to the druid spell list ( like alter self or whatever into a Solar and now can cast almost like a full 20 cleric )? Can the druid gain access to wizard spell list?

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe miracle can copy most druid spells, so the wizard has that route through solars and the like.

I'd be very surprised if there isn't some type of summoning/calling that can accomplish this.

It's epic, but if a DM allows Improved Elemental Wild Shape to WS into elemental wierds, then a druid can gain access to sorcerer casting, which would open up spell-trigger items as a sorcerer, I think. Some readings of the normal Elemental Wild Shape also result in it being used to get any elemental (not just the four core types), alas, so this may be RAW possible even without epic levels.

[eggynack]

I truly believe you guys are underestimating how awesome the druid spell list is at all levels. It's not that I don't think the wizard eventually pulls ahead -- they do gain access to more high level cheesy tricks. But the druid is better than most people assume. A druid without an animal companion or wildshape still has a stunningly capable spell list.

This post is merely an introduction to eggynack's inevitable detailed explanation of these very points.
Yeah, the spell list can be pretty sweet on occasion. Over time, the quantity of things that I think that druids are incapable of has decreased, while the quantity of things that I think they are capable of has increased. For example, I've recently been working on the problem of how to planeshift as a druid, because it's obviously not on their list. It turns out that they occasionally can manage it natively, because they're capable of using animate with the spirit to get a movanic deva, and movanic devas get planeshift as an SLA. They also get a massive number of other SLA's, some of whom don't pop up on the druid list, and outside of that, planar shepherd and contemplative exist as options.

This is something that's happened to me again and again throughout my time researching druids, whether the thing in question is long range teleportation (stormwalk, transport via plants, master earth, or word of recall), tactical teleportation (shuffle, unicorn heart, and exalted wild shape), or minionmancy (valiant steed, cry of ysgard, animate with the spirit, create light archon, and a bunch more). In all of these cases I've been generally doubtful of a druid's capacity, and though the druid rarely hits wizard level power in any of these areas (Except tactical teleportation. Frigging exalted wild shape man), I've always been proven wrong by the vastness that is the druid list. Their list isn't all that great at manipulating the action economy, with stuff like celerity or contingency, but you still get stuff like dire tortoise form, low action cost spells, and just regular old initiative boosting, and those things can suffice a lot of the time. Hell, the druid list has friendly fire on it. That spell is ridiculous.

The wizard spell list is usually going to be superior to the druid spell list, but the druid isn't that far behind all the time. Druids get access to some of the best mass destruction spells in the game, ranging from control winds to earthquake to blizzard, all capable of removing everything from an army to a town from the map. As for the question of how a druid can access the wizard list, the best way I'm aware of is picking up a dip into contemplative for the spell domain, preferably with a level of holt warden beforehand. Just getting two or three spells off the wizard list each day can fill the gaps in druid casting to an insane degree, just because there aren't that many gaps in druid casting.

I think that's basically the basics of how good the druid list is/can be. After that you obviously have stuff like the animal companion, which can often act as a highly effective party beatstick, wild shape, which is an all day mobility/scouting/defense/face eating buff, which you can change the nature of at will, and spontaneous summoning, which makes all of your spells awesome, no matter what spells you prepared, and allows you to toss around really situational stuff as a result. It's all fantastic, and it can give the druid a big edge, especially in low optimization games. Finally, while wizards gain some advantage from some moderate level through 16, I don't think they have much of an advantage at 17. Shapechange just turns everything after that level into an amorphous blob of power, where all spells are your spells, and the game is crushed into nothingness by your mighty fists of magic.

[Chronos]

Quoth TrueJordan:

Possibly, although with proper optimization, a druid 20 can be just as powerful as any wizard 20, with this one advantage: http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn-...ostfell--1313/
Probably one of the most powerful spells in the game. At level 20, it covers 400 square feet (Erm, as I'm typing this I realize that the range is only 300 ft, but it should be able to cover 400... whatevs)
Check your math, there: It's 400 square feet per level, or 8000 at 20th level. And a range of 300 feet encompasses about 300,000 square feet, which is more than big enough to fit that 8000 square feet into.

Which is all fairly unimpressive anyway, given that a mere 9th-level druid can devastate an entire area of over 400,000 square feet via Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm).

[eggynack]

Check your math, there: It's 400 square feet per level, or 8000 at 20th level. And a range of 300 feet encompasses about 300,000 square feet, which is more than big enough to fit that 8000 square feet into.

Which is all fairly unimpressive anyway, given that a mere 9th-level druid can devastate an entire area of over 400,000 square feet via Control Winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm).
Yeah, I think frostfell is definitely a good spell, acting as a highly efficient 8th level AoE SoD, but in the league of great spells, it is very much outmatched. It's probably one of the better druid 8th's, but that's more because of how lousy druid 8th's are than it is because of how awesome frostfell is.

[TrueJordan]

I am ashamed. I thought that it meant a 20 ft. square, which, now that I think about it, makes no sense.
Thanks, bro.
As for the control winds, does it actually say exactly what a tornado does?

Also also, the giant vermin spell at higher levels (16 with the Ankh) is probably the best spell in the game, for it's 3rd level spot. Just throwin' that out there.

[eggynack]

As for the control winds, does it actually say exactly what a tornado does?
As is the case for most natural disaster type spells, the key is dutiful cross-referencing. Thus, you may find that data here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#tornadoWind), nowhere near the spell itself.


Also also, the giant vermin spell at higher levels (16 with the Ankh) is probably the best spell in the game, for it's 3rd level spot. Just throwin' that out there.
It's quite good, and it scales beautifully, but the enemies who really threaten you at level 15-20 (depending on CL boosters used) probably won't be too threatened by a colossal whatever. I'd honestly prefer my thirds at that level to be long duration and/or low action cost, with an impact on combat that remains meaningful at high levels. Thus, some of the 3rd's that I'd consider best at high levels would be alter fortune (PHB II, 101), heart of water (CM, 107), and primal instinct (DrM, 72). Rerolls, FoM, and initiative bonuses never go out of style.

[Zaq]

Yeah, the spell list can be pretty sweet on occasion. Over time, the quantity of things that I think that druids are incapable of has decreased, while the quantity of things that I think they are capable of has increased. For example, I've recently been working on the problem of how to planeshift as a druid, because it's obviously not on their list. It turns out that they occasionally can manage it natively, because they're capable of using animate with the spirit to get a movanic deva, and movanic devas get planeshift as an SLA. They also get a massive number of other SLA's, some of whom don't pop up on the druid list, and outside of that, planar shepherd and contemplative exist as options.

Is there a way for Druids to specifically get Summon Monster (either in addition to or instead of SNA)? SM2 can get an ur'Epona (Planar Handbook), which has Plane Shift. Seems less messy than Animate With The Spirit if there's an easy way to get Summon Monster.

[eggynack]

Is there a way for Druids to specifically get Summon Monster (either in addition to or instead of SNA)? SM2 can get an ur'Epona (Planar Handbook), which has Plane Shift. Seems less messy than Animate With The Spirit if there's an easy way to get Summon Monster.
It wouldn't really work. Summoned creatures can't use planar travel abilities. That's why you can't just summon a janni and get planeshift that way. Either way, the best way I know to add spells is still contemplative, either with the spell domain, or in this case, possibly the summoner domain. Animate with the spirit is admittedly a very messy little solution, with some substantial work required, and room for error, but I think it's one of the better ones available. Especially because you can use chain spell, either through rod or through feat, to get multiple animated folks simultaneously, and because you can use the moonspeaker's extend summoning ability, presumably combined with extend spell (once again through either rod or feat), to get the duration to a far more useful 40 minutes/level.

Edit: When I say that summoned creatures can't use planar travel, I'm specifically referring to SM and SNA creatures, if that wasn't clear. Both spells say, "A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities." Animate with the spirit is also a summoning spell, but it lacks that clause.

[Vaz]

A Druid has the benefit of Wis synergy; this means Will Save or lose spells at low levels are less effective; As you can see (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=391.0), there are a lot more Save or Sucks on Will than any other for Wizards. However, at 5th level, their Fort Save (and/or) Dex is boosted by Wild Shape; Wizards don't really have this until 7th (Polymorph), and don't have the Wis Synergy to pump their Will Save.

Knowing he's facing a Druid, a Wizard will have enough counters up, but in standard adventuring, the higher Will Save will make it more likely to save against the save or lose spells.

Those Save or Loses will of course be used against the Animal Companion of course rending it moot, but at first level, the Druid's sole Save or Lose is Sandblast, which is Reflex, and one of the Wizard's typically boosted stats.

[Blkmge]

At low levels - druid.

As levels go up, Wizard can get better but not reliably so. They have the better spells to choose from and the most potential but that is limited by luck and DM fiat whereas a druid's capabilities remain more constant.


A druid at level 20, has access to every one of these spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm) along with any in the splatbooks in play. No extra costs incurred, no downtime needed and no need to wait.

A wizard, at 20 can only be guaranteed to know this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm) spell at any given point and unless they are lucky in adventuring, a minimum of 40 others. (Not including level 0 spells!). They are also vulnerable to magical fires, thieves, and having to lug around small libraries worth of spellbooks - which also eat into your WBL (since you have to actually pay for inscribing the spells + spellbooks).

A druid also is more likely to have more skillpoints available and can quite literally ignore half of their stat values without any detriment to their performance.

(Note.. Wiz 20 vs Druid 20 is the only comparison here. Going Wiz X/Prc Y vs Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 15 is a different ballgame in which the Druid wins all the cosmology. After all, they can then gain access to all Wizard and Cleric spells in addition to the Druid ones)

[HunterOfJello]

Are these two dueling or working in a party towards a goal?

[Phelix-Mu]

It's probably also worth noting that after 20th, with the onset of epic levels, they probably are even again, as both have the power to destroy entire campaigns without much effort at that point.

Doubly so if Epic Spellcasting is on the table; all Tier 1 casters become gods with access to this particular toolkit.

[eggynack]

It's probably also worth noting that after 20th, with the onset of epic levels, they probably are even again, as both have the power to destroy entire campaigns without much effort at that point.

As I've noted, I think this becomes true earlier, at level 17. Wizards get way more good 9th's than druids, but shapechange covers pretty much all the ground. Still, this would expand the range of parity from 17 to what is presumably infinity, so that's neat.

[Phelix-Mu]

As I've noted, I think this becomes true earlier, at level 17. Wizards get way more good 9th's than druids, but shapechange covers pretty much all the ground. Still, this would expand the range of parity from 17 to what is presumably infinity, so that's neat.

Well, it's a good way into epic, but I seem to remember a discussion somewhere implying that the epic Dragon Wild Shape grants spellcasting. Which would be crazy sauce, as by that level a straight druid has probably gone for gargantuan wild shape, lol, as there are only a small number of epic feats worth taking (not Improved Spell Capacity again!).

[Crake]

It wouldn't really work. Summoned creatures can't use planar travel abilities. That's why you can't just summon a janni and get planeshift that way. Either way, the best way I know to add spells is still contemplative, either with the spell domain, or in this case, possibly the summoner domain. Animate with the spirit is admittedly a very messy little solution, with some substantial work required, and room for error, but I think it's one of the better ones available. Especially because you can use chain spell, either through rod or through feat, to get multiple animated folks simultaneously, and because you can use the moonspeaker's extend summoning ability, presumably combined with extend spell (once again through either rod or feat), to get the duration to a far more useful 40 minutes/level.

Edit: When I say that summoned creatures can't use planar travel, I'm specifically referring to SM and SNA creatures, if that wasn't clear. Both spells say, "A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities." Animate with the spirit is also a summoning spell, but it lacks that clause.

I was just about to bring this up, because I thought the inability to use teleportation or planar travel was a part of the general summoning subschool rules, but its actually only the innate ability to conjure another creature that's enforced directly by the subschool, nothing about being unable to teleport or planar travel.

Animate with the spirit is also nice for free raise dead as well by the way.

[icefractal]

So first off, at maximum optimization, they both have unlimited power. Of course, so does a Commoner, so let's forget about maximum optimization.

Now in a "high-op but no unlimited loops" context, it depends on the parameters of the challenge. In a duel, the Wizard probably has the edge because of having more ways to personally get actions. In terms of contributing to the party - I think they both can do pretty much whatever they need to. A Druid might expend less resources in doing so, so maybe a little edge there.

[eggynack]

Well, it's a good way into epic, but I seem to remember a discussion somewhere implying that the epic Dragon Wild Shape grants spellcasting. Which would be crazy sauce, as by that level a straight druid has probably gone for gargantuan wild shape, lol, as there are only a small number of epic feats worth taking (not Improved Spell Capacity again!).
That stuff is pretty nifty, though I don't know if even dragon casting has an impact on power level when you hit epic.


Animate with the spirit is also nice for free raise dead as well by the way.
Indeed so. That's one of the other big ones, with divination probably representing a third. I think plane shift is probably the biggest though, because it's one of those effects that there's just no substitute for. Past that most of the other effects aren't really at that level of impact, but they're still good. Death ward at will is a pretty interesting effect, for example, as is a number of those healing effects, like remove curse.

[Harrow]

At low levels, I prefer the Druid spell list over the Wizard spell list. Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Web, and Glitterdust are all great, don't get me wrong. But Entangle has a better casting time, range, and area respectively. Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Snowsight+Obscuring Snow, they're all deadly, even more so than Wizard spells at this level. SNA is also better at low levels than SM is. SM's big strength is the list of SLAs you get off of it, where as SNA is mostly about summoning beatsticks, but SM doesn't really give you access to SLAs at low levels, and SNA is better at beatsticks than SM.

The Animal Companion and Wildshape class features are also much more notable at lower levels than the Metamagic and item creation the Wizard specializes in, which takes some time to kick in. All in all, I'd say the transition starts at about level 7. Black Tentacles, Stone Shape, Animate Dead, Enervation, Shadow Conjuration, Dimension Door, and Scrying are all the kind of thing that just make Mundanes completely redundant, but it's only the beginning of the end for the mighty Druid. Unfortunately, as time goes on Wizards get Planar Binding, SM starts to outpace SNA, and being able to do more stuff is more important than just being able to do what mundanes can do better and earlier, though the battlefield control never lags behind.

Druid's mostly have a hard time holding up at higher levels because what they are good at is being big and mean, which the Barbarian can tell you doesn't count for much at level 20. Clerics get Divine Metamagic and Miracle, Wizards get Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix, Lesser Wish, and Wish. Druids don't get Metamagic shenanigans and for spells get... Shapechange? But Wizards and some Clerics get that too. The only prestige class worth really thinking about is Planar Shepherd, but without time trait abuse that's just a limited version of boosting Wildshape up to Shapechange.

Certain feats and ACFs mean the Wizard is just barely behind a Druid at low levels and spell selection is more important for Druids at later levels, but I would put the Wizard/Druid dominance switch anywhere between level 7 and level 11, assuming equal optimization for both.

[Phelix-Mu]

Dragon druid is like druid+wizard. I think you can probably even pick you sorcerer spells known every time, since they aren't listed. That's bonkers.

But, as you say, at epic, bonkers is simply another word for days ending in the letter "-y."

[eggynack]

All in all, I'd say the transition starts at about level 7. Black Tentacles, Stone Shape, Animate Dead, Enervation, Shadow Conjuration, Dimension Door, and Scrying are all the kind of thing that just make Mundanes completely redundant, but it's only the beginning of the end for the mighty Druid.
Actually, both stone shape and scrying are done better by a druid than by a wizard, because of spell level in the case of stone shape, and because of the lack of costly focus in the case of scrying.


The only prestige class worth really thinking about is Planar Shepherd, but without time trait abuse that's just a limited version of boosting Wildshape up to Shapechange.
I'd set the list quite a bit longer than that. For long term options, the list is planar shepherd, moonspeaker, lion of talisid, and hathran, and for dip options, the list is something like contemplative, holt warden, divine oracle, sacred exorcist (maybe), and seeker of the misty isle. The list isn't really as good as it is for wizards, apart from planar shepherd, but contemplative does cover a lot of ground.

[Story]

At low levels - druid.

As levels go up, Wizard can get better but not reliably so. They have the better spells to choose from and the most potential but that is limited by luck and DM fiat whereas a druid's capabilities remain more constant.


A druid at level 20, has access to every one of these spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/druidSpells.htm) along with any in the splatbooks in play. No extra costs incurred, no downtime needed and no need to wait.

A wizard, at 20 can only be guaranteed to know this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm) spell at any given point and unless they are lucky in adventuring, a minimum of 40 others. (Not including level 0 spells!). They are also vulnerable to magical fires, thieves, and having to lug around small libraries worth of spellbooks - which also eat into your WBL (since you have to actually pay for inscribing the spells + spellbooks).


That's highly table dependent. Any DM that is that obsessive about limiting Wizard's spellbooks will probably impose lots of limits on Druids too. And if you're just going by RAW, well there's ways around all the difficulties you mentioned.

[Akal Saris]

Thinking about it, these are some levels where one or the other gets a "power boost" in a non-core situation. I just listed levels where I consider them to get a big advantage, as well as some of the most common 'power' PrCs like incantatrix and planar shepherd.

Druid:
1: Animal companion
6: Wildshape+natural spell
8: large wildshape
11: access to 1 level dip in contemplative (non-core)
12: dragon wildshape (non-core), turn undead for wild reaper variant (non-core)
14: planar shepherd "capstone" for wildshape (non-core)
15: frozen wildshape (non-core)
- Best spell levels (roughly): 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9
- Animal companion boost at levels: 4, 7, 10, 13, 16

Wizard:
3: Big boost in spells per day, and this is typically when spell or metamagic combos can start to come online
5: a free feat or powerful ACF (spontaneous divination, domain power, etc), and the sheer power boost from 3rd level spells
6: Able to take feats such as arcane disciple (non-core), arcane thesis, or other metamagic enablers (non-core)
8: incantatrixes get metamagic effect (non-core)
10: circle magic for red wizard (12th for hathran)
12: able to take Extraordinary Spell Aim (non-core)
14: able to dip into archmage (for mastery of shaping, etc.)
16: Capstone for initiate of sevenfold veils, capstone for incantatrix
- Best spell levels (roughly): 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9

[Story]

Level 9 is when Anima Mages get their free metamagic, the poor man's Incantrix.

[Phelix-Mu]

PrC's really are an added level of complication. Wizard's undeniably have better pickings when it comes to PrCs. It doesn't even really compare.

[eggynack]

Druid:
- Best spell levels (roughly): 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9
What shows up at 7th that causes it to deserve a spot as one of the best spell levels? Most of the options seem pretty mediocre to me, even if they're not universally so. I think I'd switch it for 4th's. 4th level spells includes great stuff like animate with the spirit, boreal wind, dispel magic, enhance wild shape, and friendly fire. I don't think 7th's really compete with that. 6th's are also probably not as good as 1st's, 3rd's, 4th's, 5th's, and 9th's, though they're probably better than 7th's. 2nd's are also pretty awesome on occasion. The druid list is really frontloaded, I think.

[Phelix-Mu]

The druid list is really frontloaded, I think.

It's not just you thinking that. I've been thinking how we can objectively prove it. No ideas yet, but it's pretty obvious just looking at the tables in core. Spell Compendium and Frostburn alleviate the problem somewhat, but even in those books, the lower level stuff is way better level-for-level than the high level stuff, not to mention more plentiful.

[eggynack]

It's not just you thinking that. I've been thinking how we can objectively prove it. No ideas yet, but it's pretty obvious just looking at the tables in core. Spell Compendium and Frostburn alleviate the problem somewhat, but even in those books, the lower level stuff is way better level-for-level than the high level stuff, not to mention more plentiful.
I dunno if it can be directly proven, but it seems like a pretty obvious thing to me. The most egregious case is easily the comparison between 5th's and 9th's, where the former has control winds and blizzard, and the latter has storm of vengeance and greater whirlwind. I'd go as far as to say that the former spells are actually better most of the time, which is just a sad state of affairs.

Many of the later effects are just minor upgrades to previous ones, in ways that probably wouldn't be worth it were other spells of those levels more reasonable. So, you get stuff like control winds to sandstorm and baleful polymorph to mummify. There's a good number of strong spells at those levels, like the teleportation options, spellstaff, and superior resistance/energy immunity, but it's not at the same level as something like call avalanche, at least in terms of slot efficiency.

[Doc_Maynot]

Wait, doesn't Animate With The Spirit have a 6HD limit to the outsider it calls?

[eggynack]

Wait, doesn't Animate With The Spirit have a 6HD limit to the outsider it calls?
Yes, and they are also limited to good outsiders. However, movanic devas fill both of these criteria, and movanic devas are awesome. Also, druids aren't exactly bursting at the seams with good minionmancy options, so getting something like lesser planar ally, except with a shorter list of creatures, a different (often smaller) cost, and usually a better body, is pretty great stuff.

[Doc_Maynot]

Yes, and they are also limited to good outsiders. However, movanic devas fill both of these criteria, and movanic devas are awesome.

That's right, I'm confusing it with the pathfinder one. :smallredface:

[Blkmge]

That's highly table dependent. Any DM that is that obsessive about limiting Wizard's spellbooks will probably impose lots of limits on Druids too. And if you're just going by RAW, well there's ways around all the difficulties you mentioned.

That's the point - Wizards are table dependant. They are at the whim of the loot table or the DM to properly seed/supply them with extra spells. A DM doesn't have to worry about that with the party's bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger or sorceror - spell management is their job. It's the only class that I can think of that requires DMs to actually support them at their core mechanic. Either intentionally or by sheer lack of thought, a DM can gimp a wizard.

Nevermind that almost all the other casters in core (Bards, clerics, druids, paladins and rangers mainly) are still reasonably decent to outright unaffected if you take away their spells. They can still wade into melee and do other things to help the party out. Wizards, and by extension sorcerers in this case, are just upright corpses who haven't experienced exsanguination yet.


In sheer power, a Wizard can do more. In reality, what they can do and what a druid will do are more on par, with the druid offering more overall reliability and utility to a group.

[Rubik]

That's the point - Wizards are table dependant. They are at the whim of the loot table or the DM to properly seed/supply them with extra spells. A DM doesn't have to worry about that with the party's bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger or sorceror - spell management is their job. It's the only class that I can think of that requires DMs to actually support them at their core mechanic. Either intentionally or by sheer lack of thought, a DM can gimp a wizard.

Nevermind that almost all the other casters in core (Bards, clerics, druids, paladins and rangers mainly) are still reasonably decent to outright unaffected if you take away their spells. They can still wade into melee and do other things to help the party out. Wizards, and by extension sorcerers in this case, are just upright corpses who haven't experienced exsanguination yet.


In sheer power, a Wizard can do more. In reality, what they can do and what a druid will do are more on par, with the druid offering more overall reliability and utility to a group.You do realize that a wizard can be fully functional with his 2+ spells per level without too much of a noticeable drop off in power, right? The rest are gravy.

[Phelix-Mu]

You do realize that a wizard can be fully functional with his 2+ spells per level without too much of a noticeable drop off in power, right? The rest are gravy.

It does reduce the hyperbolic nature of the wizard op ceiling a bit, however. Granted, that ceiling is usually only relevant in TO discussions. Most campaigns that reach that level of power become fairly cakewalk-ish (e.g., IA spell trap-zone).

[Blkmge]

You do realize that a wizard can be fully functional with his 2+ spells per level without too much of a noticeable drop off in power, right? The rest are gravy.
Of course!

But then he loses the breadth that a druid has by being a divine spellcaster. And take away his spells he still is a twig while a druid can turn into a wolf, track the enemy through dense brush, shift into a bear and tear it into shreds.

Or provide flanking for the rogue while blasting away from well out of enemy range through their animal companion.

[Story]

That's the point - Wizards are table dependant. They are at the whim of the loot table or the DM to properly seed/supply them with extra spells. A DM doesn't have to worry about that with the party's bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger or sorceror - spell management is their job. It's the only class that I can think of that requires DMs to actually support them at their core mechanic. Either intentionally or by sheer lack of thought, a DM can gimp a wizard.

Nevermind that almost all the other casters in core (Bards, clerics, druids, paladins and rangers mainly) are still reasonably decent to outright unaffected if you take away their spells. They can still wade into melee and do other things to help the party out. Wizards, and by extension sorcerers in this case, are just upright corpses who haven't experienced exsanguination yet.


In sheer power, a Wizard can do more. In reality, what they can do and what a druid will do are more on par, with the druid offering more overall reliability and utility to a group.

Again, YMMV. Not gimping the wizard doesn't require any active thought on the DM's part beyond ''here's a Wizard academy, go to town". And if you're really worried about that, just grab Collegiate Wizard Elven Domain Generalist and be done with it. You rarely use that many spells in practice anyway.

Edit: I just checked and my level 12 Anima Mage from a campaign where we had easy access to basically any spell we wanted still only bothered scribing a total of 69 spells, and a bunch of those were only for crafting. By comparison, a Collegiate Elven Generalist will have around 65-70 spells at that level completely for free. So you're barely losing anything at that point.

[Zetapup]

2.) Higher level druid spells v higher level wizard spells: While there is some trash in the Sor/Wiz list, I bet dollars to donuts that it can't compare with the trash in the druid spell list at high levels; there are gems, but there are plenty of spells that are 3-4 levels higher than they should be. Druids also miss out on a lot of the wizard mainstays (gate, wish, etc), and while enough shapechange can take the sting out of much of that, there is just way, way, way more Sor/Wiz stuff to choose from at high levels. Someone can use one of the spell filters to check, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sor/Wiz list is four times larger starting at level 7.

According to dnd tools:
Wizard spell list:
1st- 293
2nd- 424
3rd- 390
4th- 349
5th- 309
6th- 230
7th- 164
8th- 140
9th- 137

Druid spell list:
1st- 146
2nd- 204
3rd- 169
4th- 146
5th- 121
6th- 102
7th- 66
8th- 50
9th- 50

Note that dndtools repeats spells if they're printed in multiple books, so the numbers aren't exact. However, it's pretty obvious that wizards have a much larger spell list, like you suspected- at least twice as many at every level. I don't play enough casters to say whose spell list/chassis is better, so I'll leave that to y'all.

[Phelix-Mu]

It is interesting, though. I wonder if they really saw arcane casting as so great that it justified no other powerful class abilities, while druid casting clearly needed a boost with WS and AC (not that either of those holds a candle to casting, but you get the idea).

I'm more inclined to think that the "spells and a robe" image for wizards is a relic of past editions that they decided to maintain. It's good that they did, since wizard (and to a lesser extent sorcerer) don't need much help. Though sorcerer could use (and did get) a few bones tossed it's way.

EDIT: Thanks, zetapup, for running those numbers. As eggy and I both noted, the druid list suffers more at 7th on up because there are an inordinate number of spells that are basically trash. Not that the wizard list is trash-free, but between more and more versatile (especially with madness like the improvements to shadow conjuration/evocation and limited/wish), the wizard list looks much better on paper. In practice, both can curbstomp anything with enough optimization by the time higher levels are reached, and shapechange pretty much solves the problem with the disparity in spell lists.

[Story]

Is it me or is basically every Sorcerer option and goodie dragon related?

[Aliek]

About difficulty of acquiring spells for wizards, there's always easy bake wizards, if that's your problem.

As for stuff druids can do, I like taking Aberration wild shape and being a wisp for spell immunity and at-will invisibility. Perfect flight 50ft is also pretty cool, on top of it.

As for planar shepherds and access to wiz/cleric lists, if you play with polymorph effects granting spellcasting(Not going to debate this here), being a Shepherd of Mechanus can let you turn into a Secundus, with 20th level sorcerer and cleric casting. I've always been a fan of how you suddenly had the 3 core full caster lists are your disposal. You don't get planar bubble tough, but seriously, who uses the 10:1 time ratio for actual play?

As for the spell lists, Shapechange or Gate alone is enough for breaking the game. Both spells are infinite loop enablers of the highest kind.

[Blkmge]

Edit: I just checked and my level 12 Anima Mage from a campaign where we had easy access to basically any spell we wanted still only bothered scribing a total of 69 spells, and a bunch of those were only for crafting. By comparison, a Collegiate Elven Generalist will have around 65-70 spells at that level completely for free. So you're barely losing anything at that point.

Which actually proves my point.

In theory, a Wizard can be more powerful. If they have unfettered access to any spell they want, on demand, then yes they will be. If that is not the case, then the gulf between power levels is not as wide. In reality, for many games - the amount of game-breaking abilities between the two classes won't be so massive that either can't bring something useful to the table.


The only strength a druid has that a wizard cannot compete with is that a druid, sans any more spells for the day - can still be a bear, riding a bear, and utterly ruin someone's day. A wizard, without spells, is a corpse waiting to take an arrow to the face.


Edit: Just to clarify.

A wizard has more potential and certainly access to more powerful spells.
A druid has more utility and is more reliable in terms of what it brings to a party. That is why they compete with, and beat the pants off, bards for the 5th man spot. In many cases they can take the spot of both the divine caster and tank at the same time as well as filling in the gaps for the skill monkey.

[Phelix-Mu]

In many cases they can take the spot of both the divine caster and tank at the same time as well as filling in the gaps for the skill monkey.

This last point bears emphasizing. No class is as good at obviating other party roles right out of the box as a druid is. Even with shabby AC selection and pre-WS, the druid can already soundly fill meatshield, beatstick, and BFC caster roles, and follow it up with some damage-type stuff and healing when necessary. That's pretty much half a party right there.

Doing any less as a druid requires real dedication to concept (such as that displayed by the original 3e playtesters).

Man, I wish I could make that last comment blue.

[Talya]

Adding more spell choices to wizard/sorcerer doesn't really boost them, though. Most of the best spells are in core, and the average wizard isn't going to get them all anyway. They're never going to know as many spells as a druid has on their list (although half the spells on the druid list are crap anyway, so that's not entirely relevant.)

As much as we all like to pretend the wizard has every spell they want, they don't. Spells are expensive and rare and in fact most splatbook spells don't even show up on drop tables, so a DM has to intentionally give them to you. With the fact that just about everybody realizes that wizards are overpowered, the likelihood of any wizard running into Ye Olde Magicke Scrolle Emporium is rather slim in any game where the DM is doing his job.

I still believe the absolute best option a wizard can take at character creation is Elven Generalist w/Collegiate Wizard feat, for precisely this reason. Yeah, the lack of specialization hurts, but wizards have limited spells known just like sorcerers - it just isn't spelled out explicitly. They're going to run into a wall where they simply don't know the spells they want most at certain times. 5 new free spells per level instead of 2 new free spells per level is a massive bonus.

[Killer Angel]

Even with shabby AC selection and pre-WS, the druid can already soundly fill meatshield, beatstick, and BFC caster roles,

and scouting!

[Chronos]

For good spell levels, don't forget that there are a lot of good SNA options at IV, such as the unicorn, giant crocodile, and tiger.

Actually, SNA in general is a big point in favor of the druid. A wizard, like most prepared casters, can be significantly hampered if he prepares the wrong spells (such as thinking he's going to face a lot of undead, but then not meeting any). The druid, though, no matter what he prepares, will always have a fairly strong and versatile set of spells available.

And epic levels aren't quite parity. Assuming that your DM isn't allowing mitigation all the way down to zero, the wizard gets the advantage that Spellcraft is Int-based, and so can reliably hit DCs about 10 points higher (or more, if he's spending epic spells on primary-stat-boosters). On the other hand, divine spellcasters can double their epic spell slots just by getting the other relevant Knowledge skill added to their class list.

[Blkmge]

And epic levels aren't quite parity. Assuming that your DM isn't allowing mitigation all the way down to zero, the wizard gets the advantage that Spellcraft is Int-based, and so can reliably hit DCs about 10 points higher (or more, if he's spending epic spells on primary-stat-boosters). On the other hand, divine spellcasters can double their epic spell slots just by getting the other relevant Knowledge skill added to their class list.

That isn't so clear cut though.

For one, Timeless Body lets a Druid boost his intelligence by 3 with no downside, whereas a venerable Wizard is going to be frail as can be. Secondly, by having the equivalent to 8 more points of intelligence when it comes to skill points, are able to keep up with ranks in as many, if not more skills, than a Wizard can.

Sure, the Wizard may ace every Int-based roll, but a Druid can come close and maintain higher ranks in other skills as well. All the while, the druid can use Wildshape to augment his skills too (size bonuses to hide/move silently, inherent bonuses to spot/search from animal forms, free swimming/climbing and yes, even animal handling).

[Talya]

For good spell levels, don't forget that there are a lot of good SNA options at IV, such as the unicorn, giant crocodile, and tiger.

Actually, SNA in general is a big point in favor of the druid.

SNA VI is the big break point. The Oread is fracking fantastic.

[Chronos]

Quoth Blkmge:

Secondly, by having the equivalent to 8 more points of intelligence when it comes to skill points, are able to keep up with ranks in as many, if not more skills, than a Wizard can.
Druids have a base of 4 skill points, while wizards have 2. That's a difference equivalent to only 4 points of Int. Even with venerable added on, the druid will still have fewer points than the wizard.

Which is irrelevant, because we're not talking about skills in general, just one specific skill. Most spellcasters are going to max out Spellcraft anyway, especially epic spellcasters. The wizard will have an easier time maxing out multiple Knowledges, but it doesn't matter, because arcane spellcasters only get epic slots from Know(Arcana).

[ShriekingDrake]

To me, if you're looking 1-20, the druid has a clear advantage. Yes, the wizard is more powerful later on, but you actually have to get to later on. Wizards, while powerful, are quite vulnerable at early levels.

If it's druid v. wizard (given a build designed to be effective generally, not for the specific match), I think the druid has a solid advantage until somewhere in the 11th level range, then there are a few levels where they are roughly equal or a slight edge to the Wizard. After level 16, wizards have the solid advantage.

Don't mistake me, wizards are great. But, if you're looking to be relevant and powerful from beginning to end, Druids--at least to my eye--are easily your choice.

[Blkmge]

Druids have a base of 4 skill points, while wizards have 2. That's a difference equivalent to only 4 points of Int. Even with venerable added on, the druid will still have fewer points than the wizard.
Could've sworn they were 6+ Int. I'll hafta check that, but I'll defer to you.


Which is irrelevant, because we're not talking about skills in general, just one specific skill. Most spellcasters are going to max out Spellcraft anyway, especially epic spellcasters. The wizard will have an easier time maxing out multiple Knowledges, but it doesn't matter, because arcane spellcasters only get epic slots from Know(Arcana).
Irrelevant for the Wizard. Not irrelevant for the party or the druid.

[Talya]

Everything is irrelevant at epic levels. Epic spellcasting is a horrible, horrible idea.

[Phelix-Mu]

Indeed, Epic Spellcasting really takes all of our measuring sticks and tosses them on a bonfire made of the DM's campaign ideas.

But it is interesting to think what happens in epic without it. Wizards get more frequent bonus feats, I think, but otherwise straight wizards and straight druid are already scraping the bottom of the barrel for things they can't do. Epic Wild Shape feats do get a bit silly, but hardly sillier than the crazy already on the table via shapechange. Improved Elemental Wild Shape and Dragon Wild Shape start removing the final limiters from the druid toolbox (assuming there are any left that eggy hasn't already dismantled), especially if the DM allows them to grant spellcasting (Imp. Elemental already grants SLAs).

Interesting to think about, anyway. But in any campaign with higher levels of op, the rocket tag has already reached it's epitome by 17th. Everything after that is basically just initiative optimization and putting as much WBL on the table as possible.

[Endarire]

I did a comparison of Druid6 vs. Wizard6 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10493.0).

[eggynack]

I did a comparison of Druid6 vs. Wizard6 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10493.0).
A couple of notes. First, as I've mentioned in this thread, and as was mentioned in that thread, druids actually do get some reasonable teleportation options, even if they don't occur by level six. In addition to those listed in the thread, storm walk and master earth make for reasonable options. Second, my list did not have frost breath, and now it does. I wonder how I missed that one, given that I must've looked through the spell compendium three times by now. Reads a bit like a better dessicate, except maybe not that much like that at all. Cool beans.

[Story]

For one, Timeless Body lets a Druid boost his intelligence by 3 with no downside, whereas a venerable Wizard is going to be frail as can be.

Assuming they don't go Necropolitan of course. Amusingly, Druids can also go Necropolitan (though the fluff is a bit odd), but without FMI, they won't get as much benefit.