Warforged Warblade Warlock

[omegalith]

Hi guys. Been a quite a few years since I played, so I'm a little rusty on the rulebooks. But, I recently started trying to stick together a Warforged Warblade/Warlock as an exercise in making the warest Warforged ever to War.

That said, I have no idea where to start with making him optimal. As I said, rusty on the rules. I abandoned the idea of making him a Warmage as well on the basis that adding one casting class to a Melee class is already tough to balance, and basically I'm looking for a few tips on how to balance him out to be a strong build at level twenty. I don't mean "game breaking" when I say optimal, merely very good.

If I do manage to find the spare time to get back into D&D at some point, I honestly think this is a cool concept to play as. Definitely in my top three or so characters to try out.

[Rebel7284]

Warlock 4/Warblade 16

DR1, taking 10 on UMD and 3 least invocations add some flexibility at the cost of 1 BAB and a few HP.

Really, the two classes have very little synergy.

Bonus other classes that reference war:
Warshaper
War Hulk
Warpriest

[shadow_archmagi]

Warforged Psiwarrior Warblade, on the other hand, has much better psynergy.

[Sith_Happens]

Bonus other classes that reference war:
Warshaper
War Hulk
Warpriest

Warmage
Warchanter

[omegalith]

Warlock 4/Warblade 16

DR1, taking 10 on UMD and 3 least invocations add some flexibility at the cost of 1 BAB and a few HP.

Really, the two classes have very little synergy.

Bonus other classes that reference war:
Warshaper
War Hulk
Warpriest

Yeah, it's exactly the lack of synergy that hurts it. Plus, both classes rely on developing a set of cool tricks as you level that mean any progress made in one class is progress you don't make in the other.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, here we go. You have to be LE to pull this off, but evil Robot Psylock here we go.

Warforged
Monk 1 / Warlock 3 / Warblade 14

Here is what we are doing.

Focused Attack monk ACF - You make a single attack as a full round action and deal double damage.
Eldrich Claws - Adds blast damage as claws for 1 round as a free action
Supreme Unarmed Strike - You have good damage
Snap kick - Adds a second attack to even a focused attack
Beast strike - Adds that claw damage to ALL unarmed strikes

With items you should be able to add 4d6 damage to your unarmed strikes, then double to total damage. I think I am remembering the item that adds +2d6 blast damage correctly, I think it's a rod...

Focus on tiger claw for blood in the water stance. You can use a battlefist for a little more damage, but also note, it adds it's enhancements to your unarmed strikes. Get an amulet of natural attacks and get +8 worth of enhancements added to your unarmed strikes.

Your full attack involves
Full bab (-1) itteratives with unarmed strikes
1 extra unarmed strike
1 extra unarmed strike from haste (someone will cast it)
2 claw attacks
1 slam attack
1 bite (there is a mask for this)

Go crazy fishing for crits.

[Blightedmarsh]

I would suggest a minimal dip into warblade with the main focus on the warlock. Initiator classes can be very front loaded and net you 1/2 progression. They make good dips. Dip latter so you can pick up better maneuvers and stances.

I would say go for a meele warlock taking advantage of your good con and natural armor of the warforged. A good warlock can be NAD (Non attribute dependent). Now if it where me I'd go for a glavelock using stances and manuvers to give me an additional layer of power and utility in close quarters. For range Id put some ranged shapes on rods of power rather than spend a precious invocation on them.


The questions become twofold.
1) Can you use a glaive and shield (if the answer is yes then there is not reason not to).
2) Can you eldrtich glaive and use a strike at the same time?

[Chronos]

I think I'd go with just a single-level warlock dip for Eldritch Glaive, and then use the glaive to deliver your maneuvers. Then again, martial adept multiclassing works best with an even number of other levels, so Warlock 2 or 4 might make sense, too.

[dascarletm]

If you can somehow get access to the War domain, that'll help.:smallwink:

Become a Warlord, and ride a Worg... CLOSE ENOUGH!

[Nihilarian]

I think I'd go with just a single-level warlock dip for Eldritch Glaive, and then use the glaive to deliver your maneuvers. Then again, martial adept multiclassing works best with an even number of other levels, so Warlock 2 or 4 might make sense, too.I don't think Eldritch Glaive will work with most maneuvers.

You should pick one to be your active and use the other one to support. So use Eldritch Glaive and defensive maneuvers, or offensive maneuvers and support invocations. Might be able to swing JPM.

Personally I'd go Warblade/War Mind. Sweeping Strike should work with maneuvers.

[Amidus Drexel]

Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action, so it's not useable with most maneuvers. That said, you can always use swift action maneuvers (swordsage might be a better dip for that), or get yourself another standard action somehow. The first idea that comes to mind is a wand of celerity, although 1) that's expensive until you're very high level, and 2) it'll leave you dazed every other turn (assuming you make full use of it).

[omegalith]

You know, I tend to feel that a Warlock who doesn't have fell flight is somehow Warlocking wrong.

Maybe that's just me.

[Nihilarian]

You know, I tend to feel that a Warlock who doesn't have fell flight is somehow Warlocking wrong.

Maybe that's just me.There are other ways of getting flight, you know.

[Red Fel]

I think I'd go with just a single-level warlock dip for Eldritch Glaive, and then use the glaive to deliver your maneuvers. Then again, martial adept multiclassing works best with an even number of other levels, so Warlock 2 or 4 might make sense, too.

Be careful about that. Quoth the Sacred Text (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708):

I have seen a lot of confusion because of eldritch glaive and that is what inspired me to make this handbook, let me say this soon - eldritch glaive is not a weapon. Common belief is that it works as a glaive, some people even claiming the text of eldritch glaive says you can apply glaive feats to it. The text has nothing of the sort; eldritch glaive is a touch-attack magic effect, as defined in Complete Arcane, a weapon-like spell effect.

In other words, EG isn't a weapon, and isn't compatible with any maneuver that requires you to attack with a weapon or the like.


There are other ways of getting flight, you know.

Yeah! You could take three levels of Enlightened Spirit!

Really, I'm going to echo what others have said. As much as I love the idea of a WarWarWarforged, this particular combination just doesn't work well. Others have listed War-classes that work so nicely.

[gadren]

There is no way to combine Eldritch Spear and warblade attack maneuvers, right?

[Nihilarian]

There is no way to combine Eldritch Spear and warblade attack maneuvers, right?Doesn't seem like it. Strikes don't really play nice with ranged attacks.

You could use strikes with Eldritch Claws, though.

[BornValyrian]

Warlock 4/Warblade 16

DR1, taking 10 on UMD and 3 least invocations add some flexibility at the cost of 1 BAB and a few HP.

Really, the two classes have very little synergy.

Bonus other classes that reference war:
Warshaper
War Hulk
Warpriest


Warmage
Warchanter

War weaver
Cleric (War domain!)

[gadren]

Doesn't seem like it. Strikes don't really play nice with ranged attacks.

You could use strikes with Eldritch Claws, though.

Uh, sorry, I meant Hideous Blow.

[gadren]

Well, if your DM won't allow you to apply Hideous Blow to warblade strikes (It is against RAW, I believe, but your DM may be generous), and doesn't allow you to take stuff from Dragon Magazine, your best bet for the concept is to get the biggest melee weapon you can (Minotaur Greathammer from MM4 if you can, though don't hold your breath) and build around hideous blow while focusing on boosts, counters, and stances from Warblade, as well as strike where damage isn't the main advantage.

Level 1: Warblade 1 (Learn Punishing Stance, Steely Strike, Sudden Leap, and Leading the Attack.) Punishing Stance give a pretty good damage boost. Steely Strike is useful for when there are two low-hp things you want to kill in one attack. Sudden Leap lets you move as a swift action if you put enough ranks in Jump. Leading the attack gives +4 to attack rolls to all your allies which can be a pretty good trade for low damage.)
OPTIONAL: Consider picking up the Burning Blade boost via the Martial Study feat. Its damage stacks with everything else you probably have, and because you are a Warblade, you can probably recover it every other round.
Level 2: Warblade 1/ Warlock 1 (Learn Hideous Blow Invocation.) You can now hit with your big melee weapon for weapon damage + 1.5 str + 2d6 damage.
Level 3: Warblade 1/ Warlock 2 (Learn Frightful Blast.) You can now hit with your big melee weapon for weapon damage + 1.5 str + 2d6 damage AND also inflict -2 to most of the target's rolls on a failed save
Level 4: Warblade 1/Warlock 3 You can now hit with your big melee weapon for weapon damage + 1.5 str + 3d6 damage AND also inflict -2 to most of the target's rolls on a failed save. You also have DR 1/cold iron.
Level 5: Warblade 2/Warlock 3 (Learn Wall of Blades counter) Wall of Blades lets you parry attack rolls with an opposed attack roll. Keep in mind it is pretty easy to recover maneuvers with this build, too.
Level 6: Warblade 2/Warlock 4 (Learn Leaps and Bounds invocation.) The bonus to jump checks helps with your Sudden Leap Maneuver. Or, just take any Other Invocation you like.
Level 7: Warblade 2/Warlock 5 You can now hit with your big melee weapon for weapon damage + 1.5 str + 4d6 damage AND also inflict -2 to most of the target's rolls on a failed save.
Level 8: Warblade 3/Warlock 5 (Learn White Raven Tactics) It gives your allies extra turns in a round. Super awesome.
Level 10: Warblade 3/Warlock 7 (Learn Beshadowed Blast) You can now hit with your big melee weapon for weapon damage + 1.5 str + 5d6 damage AND also either blind or inflict -2 to most of the target's rolls on a failed save. AND you have more DR now.
Level 11: Warblade 4/Warlock 7 (Learn Lightning Recovery) [spoiler] Free attack roll reroll.]
And so on...
Use your feats to optimize for a typical melee character. You will be on par with the other Warlocks, but way behind the real casters.

[Socksy]

With items you should be able to add 4d6 damage to your unarmed strikes, then double to total damage. I think I am remembering the item that adds +2d6 blast damage correctly, I think it's a rod...

The item is the Greater Chasuble of Fell Power. I... Don't actually know what a Chasuble is. I imagined it to be a little box thing worn around the neck. It could be a rod for all I know.

[Andezzar]

The item is the Greater Chasuble of Fell Power. I... Don't actually know what a Chasuble is. I imagined it to be a little box thing worn around the neck. It could be a rod for all I know.A chasuble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasuble) is a liturgical vestment similar in form to a poncho. Strangely the chasuble of fell power occupies the throat slot instead of the shirt/vest slot.

[Sian]

Warforged
Monk 1 / Warlock 3 / Warblade 14
[...]
Supreme Unarmed Strike - You have good damage


Superior Unarmed Strike gives damage as Monk+4, OR as monk at CL-4 (or CL-5 at CL20)

so this would be as Monk 5, if you remove the monk level its as Monk 15

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, most of your damage boost comes from counting as having a huge fist, +4d6. Get a eternal wand of greater mighty wallop or a pearl of power for a friendly caster.

The level of monk is removable, but another level of warblade won't increase your IL, so maybe a barbarian dip for pounce...

[Andezzar]

Superior Unarmed Strike gives damage as Monk+4, OR as monk at CL-4 (or CL-5 at CL20)

so this would be as Monk 5, if you remove the monk level its as Monk 15Not quite. Without monk levels you get the damage shown in the table on p. 33 of ToB. There is no connection to monk levels.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, if I was a DM I think I'd try making Maneuvers work with EB in general, though you only get one EB per round still. Then adjust JPM for the Warlock. Could be pretty cool.

[Sian]

Not quite. Without monk levels you get the damage shown in the table on p. 33 of ToB. There is no connection to monk levels.

only halfway true ... it doesn't have any direct connection to monk, but holding the tables against each other shows a consistent (except for CL20) fit

[Andezzar]

only halfway true ... it doesn't have any direct connection to monk, but holding the tables against each other shows a consistent (except for CL20) fitThat makes about as much sense as saying a medium longsword does damage as a 4th level medium monk. That the numerical values are identical does not mean there is any connection.

[Fouredged Sword]

Technically, a medium longsword DOES do damage as a 4th level monk. Just because there is no causation, does not mean that it is not true in this particular instance.

[Ruethgar]

A Warmage and the Warwizard with War spells would be war-full.

[omegalith]

There are other ways of getting flight, you know.

True, but are any of them Fell?

(Ha, yeah. I really just meant that thematically, if you aren't using your Eldritch cast-at-will powers to spurn gravity's pathetic hold upon lesser mortals, you aren't very committed to the role)

How much work do you reckon I'd need to do to a reasonable homebrew of an Eldritch Knight style Prestige Class for these two classes?

[Nihilarian]

True, but are any of them Fell?

(Ha, yeah. I really just meant that thematically, if you aren't using your Eldritch cast-at-will powers to spurn gravity's pathetic hold upon lesser mortals, you aren't very committed to the role)

How much work do you reckon I'd need to do to a reasonable homebrew of an Eldritch Knight style Prestige Class for these two classes?Eldritch Knight doesn't benefit the warblade and doesn't even have "war" in it's name. It wouldn't take much work for it to work with the warlock (I'd probably use the Knight Phantom instead, though. Phantom Steed as an invocation could be fun.) Basically all you have to do is mess with prerequisites.

If you want to be an initiator, I'd work with JPM instead.

[Red Fel]

If you want to be an initiator, I'd work with JPM instead.

I question how one would JPM as a Warlock, however. You would have to adapt the class from spells to invocations. And part of the problem is that your invocations are all-day, at-will abilities, whereas many of JPM's abilities require burning a spell slot. How exactly would you "burn" an invocation, which is an at-will ability?

It's an awesome idea, I just don't see how it would function.

Also, JPM is War-less.

[Nihilarian]

I question how one would JPM as a Warlock, however. You would have to adapt the class from spells to invocations. And part of the problem is that your invocations are all-day, at-will abilities, whereas many of JPM's abilities require burning a spell slot. How exactly would you "burn" an invocation, which is an at-will ability?

It's an awesome idea, I just don't see how it would function.

Also, JPM is War-less.Personally I'd make it so that, if you "burn" an invocation with a JPM ability, you lose the ability to use it for a set amount of time (until the end of the encounter?). Maybe you could recover it like an expended maneuver?

[Red Fel]

Personally I'd make it so that, if you "burn" an invocation with a JPM ability, you lose the ability to use it for a set amount of time (until the end of the encounter?). Maybe you could recover it like an expended maneuver?

There are several problems with that.

1. Many of a Warlock's invocations have little combat function. Some, like Flee the Scene, are tactically useful. Others, like Crawling Eye, not so much. As a result, "losing" one for one combat session doesn't necessarily have a substantial impact on the Warlock's performance the way that losing a slot might force an arcane caster into a difficult decision.

2. So what if he gives it up for the day, instead of for combat? Well, a Warlock has a much smaller list of invocations than a Wizard or Sorcerer has of spells. Consider that, not counting bonus spells from attributes, a level 20 Sorcerer has 6 spells per day of every level, or a total of 60 spells; a Wizard has 40, but chosen from a larger list. A level 20 Warlock has 12 invocations known. That's all. "Losing" any of his invocations for the day is a much bigger deal to a Warlock than to a typical arcane caster.

3. And how do we create equivalency? A 5th-level spell slot is a 5th-level spell slot, sure. But invocations don't have levels the way arcane spells do. They have Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark. What numerical values would you assign to each? And do we count blast shape or essence invocations the same way?

Let's take an example. You have a Jade Phoenix Warlock. He wants to use his JPW abilities in combat. There are two ways we could go about it: he could (1) "burn" an invocation for the duration of combat, and recover it later, or (2) "burn" an invocation in the morning, and lose access to it for the duration of the day, but be able to use each of his JPW abilities as though he had burned it.

Under example 1, he burns one Greater invocation to use Arcane Wrath. He gains +4 to his next attack, and an additional +xd10 damage to that strike. (What slot equivalent is a Greater invocation?) He then burns another invocation, say a Lesser, to use Mystic Phoenix Stance's improved version, gaining DR X/evil, again when we figure out what spell slot it counts as. He has just burned two invocations in combat, and will recover them after combat; he probably burned two useless ones like Warlock's Call and Cold Comfort. Contrast that with the fact that when an arcane caster uses these abilities, his decision is more serious and lasts all day.

Under example 2, let's say he simply burns Steal Summoning, a Dark Invocation. Does it apply to all of his uses of Mystic Phoenix Stance? Or of all JPW abilities? Even after we figure out the spell-slot equivalency, there's still the matter of whether we're in essence letting a character lose one spell slot to gain benefit to all abilities all day. Contrast this with a Sorcerer/JPM, who has to burn a day's use of a spell for each use of his JPM abilities.

It's a long way around to say it, but basically, the class would need some more-than-cosmetic restructuring to accommodate invocations.

[omegalith]

Dang. Looks like it would be better to build from scratch using the existing class-combining PRC's as guidelines than to straight up restructure one.

Oh well. Honestly, the only reason I became attached to this idea was because I figured that these were the two "coolest" classes with War in their name.

Irrelevant side note: On a non-multiclassed Warblade, how useful is Warforged Juggernaut?

[Red Fel]

Dang. Looks like it would be better to build from scratch using the existing class-combining PRC's as guidelines than to straight up restructure one.

Oh well. Honestly, the only reason I became attached to this idea was because I figured that these were the two "coolest" classes with War in their name.

Irrelevant side note: On a non-multiclassed Warblade, how useful is Warforged Juggernaut?

To be fair, other people have listed other "War-" classes, some of which are actually fairly impressive, and might have better synergy with Warlock or Warblade. (For example, a Warblade/PsiWar/Warmind could be pretty spiffy.) It's just that the two together don't mix well. (And trust me, I know the feeling of having a really cool, fun idea that doesn't pan out quite right.)

With regard to WFJ, are you suggesting you go Warblade X/ WFJ 5/ Warblade +Y? Because I think that could work. Admittedly, you'll need a solid source of repairs, since healing won't work, and you'll lose out on some maneuverability. But a smashing-focused Warblade can technically function just as well if he's a massive wall of spiked adamantine as he can if he's a squishy pink fleshbag.

Basically, if you take Adamantine Body at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Imp Bull Rush at 6, you could take WFJ at 6 (I think; I don't recall if you need to take class levels before taking feats). That would make you Wbl 5/ WFJ 5/ Wbl +10, which grants you full access to your 9th-level maneuvers.

Basically, you'd be a massive metal monstrosity with mean melee maneuvers but mostly minor mobility.

[Andezzar]

With regard to WFJ, are you suggesting you go Warblade X/ WFJ 5/ Warblade +Y? Because I think that could work. Admittedly, you'll need a solid source of repairs, since healing won't work, and you'll lose out on some maneuverability. But a smashing-focused Warblade can technically function just as well if he's a massive wall of spiked adamantine as he can if he's a squishy pink fleshbag.Compared to warblade you get some immunities at the expense of maneuvers, and if you go to ECL 20 the awesome capstone.


Basically, if you take Adamantine Body at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Imp Bull Rush at 6, you could take WFJ at 6 (I think; I don't recall if you need to take class levels before taking feats). That would make you Wbl 5/ WFJ 5/ Wbl +10, which grants you full access to your 9th-level maneuvers.The latter does not work. The first step of leveling up is always select class. You cannot select a class for which you do not yet meet the prerequisites.