PDA

View Full Version : Lethal Systems



Erock
2014-02-27, 03:05 PM
What systems are out there that can kill characters, but also have quick character creation so players aren't sitting around doing nothing?

Tengu_temp
2014-02-27, 03:07 PM
Pre-3e DND, and its retroclones. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Kobolds Ate My Baby.

Ravens_cry
2014-02-27, 03:09 PM
Savage Worlds looks like this, looking through the books. This is mitigated by Bennies, but only so much. Sometimes the dice just hate your guts.

hamlet
2014-02-27, 03:24 PM
Paranoia. You create 6 characters to begin with and see how many, if any, you have left by the end of the session.

Ravens_cry
2014-02-27, 03:35 PM
Paranoia. You create 6 characters to begin with and see how many, if any, you have left by the end of the session.
Technically, you have six clones, I believe. I don't think each successive iteration is actually differentiated in any meaningful way.

Blightedmarsh
2014-02-27, 03:37 PM
Whats that one that tends to either kill characters during random creation or create unholy abominations.

Rhynn
2014-02-27, 03:53 PM
Most D&D retroclones (see my sig). ACKS is a favorite; it has a Mortal Wound table to mitigate lethality somewhat, but also has a Tampering with Mortality table to make raising the dead a little trickier.

My party (3 PCs and 5 henchmen) lost 2 PCs and 1-3 henchmen (I forget) in the first session of B4 The Lost City. There were one or two mercy killings of permanently crippled PCs (they were in a dungeon in the middle of a desert waste) - one was paralyzed from the neck down.

Others...
Conan d20.
The Riddle of Steel.
Praedor (sorry, Finnish only).

HârnMaster is lethal in a good way, but unfortunately chargen isn't that quick.

Tengu_temp
2014-02-27, 03:58 PM
Whats that one that tends to either kill characters during random creation or create unholy abominations.

Traveller? Or FATAL? In either case, not exactly a paragon of fast character creation. Quite the opposite in fact.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-02-27, 03:59 PM
Whats that one that tends to either kill characters during random creation or create unholy abominations.
I don't know about unholy abominations, but Classic Traveller could kill a character during character creation. (It wasn't common, though.)

Hollowpoint is designed for super-speedy character creation. And it's designed to bleed off characters--but you can hang on to a character no matter what. (They're just going to be crippled and less effective.)

Rhynn
2014-02-27, 04:03 PM
Whats that one that tends to either kill characters during random creation or create unholy abominations.

Ah, that's probably deadEarth, the worst RPG that isn't an overdone meme.

Berenger
2014-02-27, 06:30 PM
Whats that one that tends to either kill characters during random creation or create unholy abominations.

The old edition of HackMaster could kill you during character creation ("Oops, sorry, your fighter was killed in a catapult freak accident during training...").

Mr. Mask
2014-02-27, 08:49 PM
It makes me a little sad to see the Riddle of Steel listed as an example of lethal combat. I'll have to look into some of the others to judge.


Would Twilight 2013 classify as lethal?

The Corinthian
2014-02-27, 08:56 PM
Retroclones are probably the way to go.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a great game, and certainly lethal, but character generation in that system is not fast.

Knaight
2014-02-28, 03:07 AM
Warrior Rogue and Mage could work for this. It depends largely on enemy makeup, and just how much armor the PCs are packing. If crossbows and polearms are common, it tends towards the brutal. Without them, it's more the matter of exploding damage dice always being a risk.

Sir Pippin Boyd
2014-02-28, 03:13 AM
Retroclones are probably the way to go.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a great game, and certainly lethal, but character generation in that system is not fast.

There are generators online for Dark Heresy that spit out every relevant detail of character creation instantly, as if one had rolled on all available random generation tables during character creation.

The ST at our local game mandates that we use a generator for characters in his game, and its been both a lot of fun and very fast to make characters for.

Geostationary
2014-02-28, 04:10 AM
I suppose Gamma World would count. Relatively disposable characters, and streamlined character creation- being mostly random is like half the fun of character creation!

Rhynn
2014-02-28, 04:32 AM
It makes me a little sad to see the Riddle of Steel listed as an example of lethal combat. I'll have to look into some of the others to judge.

Why? It's a very realistically lethal game: once your dice pool is down to 0 and someone gets an attack on you, a level 5 wound is very likely, which is going to cripple or kill you.

It also has quick character creation: divide attribute points, choose skill packages and combat skills, pick spiritual attributes, equipment, you're done.


Would Twilight 2013 classify as lethal?

Absolutely. It's pretty good modeling: if you get shot, you have a good chance of dying or being put out of the action.

It doesn't have quick and easy character creation, though.

Mr. Mask
2014-02-28, 06:10 AM
I wouldn't call it lethal. Being likely to incapacitate someone when they're helpless if you have a reasonable number of dice with a weapon, seems like they're underdoing it a bit (unless you're unskilled). I did some experiments with large numbers of dice, and it went a bit better, but that makes how clumsy some of the weapons feel even worse (thrusts with the longsword are already too clumsy and blunt).

Will have to check the stats in the Flower of Battle to see if they improved their lethality.


Twilight: That vindicates why it wasn't brought up. Will have to get that one.

Rhynn
2014-02-28, 08:52 AM
I wouldn't call it lethal. Being likely to incapacitate someone when they're helpless if you have a reasonable number of dice with a weapon, seems like they're underdoing it a bit (unless you're unskilled).

In our very first playtest, a PC grappled an armored opponent and stabbed him to death with a dagger, but had not accounted for another opponent, who promptly killed him with one blow to his helmeted head.

TROS is a very, very deadly game. Most level 5 wounds are lethal, and the rest are incapacitating, meaning you'll be killed by the next blow unless someone else engages your opponent or they want to leave you alive.


I did some experiments with large numbers of dice, and it went a bit better, but that makes how clumsy some of the weapons feel even worse (thrusts with the longsword are already too clumsy and blunt).

I have no idea what you're talking about.

If your weapon damage exceeds your opponent's Toughness plus Armor by 1-2, it's not uncommon to strike a level 5 wound (requiring only 3-4 successes more). It's very easy, in fact, if you whittle your opponent down with some Pain and Shock - it's not uncommon to start a new round with one combatant at full CP and one temporarily at 0 CP, which basically spell instant death.

TFOB is irrelevant, since weapon damages, etc., did not get changed.

BWR
2014-02-28, 09:43 AM
I hate that 'speed of character creation' bit. Even rather complicated systems can go fairly quickly if you know how to create a character. i've often found that deciding what to play can be more time consuming than the assembly of mechanics.

As already noted, pre-3.x D&D can be deadly (my first character ever had 2hp and you died at 0 - he was the first casualty to the first attack roll of the first monster we ever met in our first RPG session ever), but at the same time you play heroes that get better and less squishy. Sure, an unlucky saving throw can still kill you in one go but after 4-5 levels combat is lasting longer and you can take a couple of hits and keep trucking.

Legend of the Five Rings can be quite deadly, depending on edition and build. I'm not quite sure about 4e (the current edition) but 3e/r you could have anything from characters almost destined to die at the first hit from anything to people who could shrug off a ballista to the face. In general most people won't be standing after 1 or 2 hits from a weapon, and if they are they are suffering enough penalties that they aren't a threat anymore.
Creation time: it varies. It can be done in10-15 minutes if you know exactly what you want to play and don't bother too much with exactly how to spend your xp. It can take days if you wonder and worry and quibble over every single point and have to think about which abilities to choose, etc..

Ars Magica can be quite deadly. Not only is it easy to die but if you've taken some serious damage but survived combat chances are you will die of your wounds anyway (porbably after agonizing months in a sickbed).
Character creation is pretty slow if you're playing a magus, but for grogs and companions can be done pretty quickly. Especially if the ST is nice and lets you save some decisions for later.

Rhynn
2014-02-28, 10:09 AM
I hate that 'speed of character creation' bit. Even rather complicated systems can go fairly quickly if you know how to create a character. i've often found that deciding what to play can be more time consuming than the assembly of mechanics.

Obviously, experience helps, but there are games where I (working fast, purposefully, and with experience) need 30-60 minutes to create a character, and systems where I (in similar circumstances) need 5-10 minutes to create a character. Most players are not particularly experienced or great at creating characters for any particular game, and that lengthens these times greatly.

It's one reason I like D&D retroclones where buying equipment is the most complicated and time-consuming part of character creation (and which I shortcut by creating "equipment packages" or using ACKS's templates).

Generally, the more complex and involved character creation is, and the more individual elements there are, and the more options there are... the longer it all takes.

For instance, HackMaster character creation is really, really complex and slow and involves a million tables and choices. It seems, to me, like a very poor fit for a D&D game, which is one reason I've never considered running the game.

Mr. Mask
2014-02-28, 10:16 AM
Rhynn: Riddle makes cutting a person in half seem really challenging and strength-intensive. The challenge of cutting a person down is less one of difficulty of strength and ability, as it is the will to kill a person and to do so without them killing you. Bleeding is also more than a minor nuisance.

I do not doubt you have had instances where someone rendered themselves helpless and got cut down.

Rhynn
2014-02-28, 10:36 AM
Rhynn: Riddle makes cutting a person in half seem really challenging and strength-intensive. The challenge of cutting a person down is less one of difficulty of strength and ability, as it is the will to kill a person and to do so without them killing you. Bleeding is also more than a minor nuisance.

Er. No, it doesn't. If you're striking at a someone who can't defend themselves and has no armor with even a half-decent dice pool (say, 7), you're basically guaranteed a kill.

And Bleeding is quite lethal - it's one of the main ways to die. Combat rounds are 1-2 seconds. If you have Health 5, you can bleed to death in 5-10 seconds with bad luck or heavy enough bleeding - although if you're bleeding that badly, you're almost certainly going to get hit with a level 5 wound because your Pain is bound to be way up there and draining your dice pool.

I have to wonder how many TROS combats you've played when you appear to have no idea at all about how it plays out.

Mr. Mask
2014-02-28, 11:14 AM
You don't need someone helpless and/or injured to cut them down. Bleeding doesn't require terrible rolls to be such a concern, particularly when severe injuries are involved.

I'm afraid to disappoint by saying I have played around with the TRoS system quite a bit.

Rhynn
2014-02-28, 11:44 AM
You don't need someone helpless and/or injured to cut them down. Bleeding doesn't require terrible rolls to be such a concern, particularly when severe injuries are involved.

And that's all true in TROS. BL 8+ is bad, and you can cut perfectly healthy opponents down with counters, feints, etc.

Mr. Mask
2014-02-28, 04:04 PM
I've found that to not be the case. We simply have different expectations of the system.

kyoryu
2014-02-28, 05:04 PM
Define "deadly".

1) Likelihood of killing a character in a single hit
2) Slim margin between life and death
3) Difficulty of disengaging from combat when outmatched
4) Likelihood of a "losing" combat resulting in death
5) Length of time to determine success/failure in a combat
6) Amount of lasting consequences from combat

(I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I think "deadly" in the context of an RPG means a bunch of things to different people)

Rakaydos
2014-02-28, 05:11 PM
Myriad song, characters are out of the fight if they take a 4 damage hit, dead if they take a 5 damage hit, and splattered across the wall if they take a 6 damage hit. They get one "Plot armor" save per session... but so do named baddies.

On the other hand, character creation is, Pick a Legacy (race), Pick a Carear, Pick 3 Gifts (feats), and spend 11 skill points, pick an Outfit (armor, utility gear, ect) and a Weapon that fit in your budget.

Lord Torath
2014-03-01, 09:57 PM
Shadowrun can be very lethal. But character creation is not quick and easy.

Fabletop
2014-03-02, 07:04 PM
TSR's 'Conan' and 'Marvel Superheroes' games had 'Kill' scores readily available on their tables. I used them for several 'sword & sorcery' adventure campaigns & character creation is a snap.

My MSH homebrew will be posted a la sig eventually.

NeoSmeers
2014-03-03, 03:43 AM
What systems are out there that can kill characters, but also have quick character creation so players aren't sitting around doing nothing?

Barbarians of Lemuria is super quick character generation, super easy to mod wounds in or adjust damage values, as it's pretty rules light.

Zavoniki
2014-03-03, 09:36 AM
How has no one mentioned Call of Cthulu or GUMSHOE yet. Both are lethal, both have quick char gen(Ashen Stars can get a bit long, but its probably the most complex GUMSHOE game.)