How strong/weak should mooks be?

[killem2]

I find myself having a lot of strong enemies through the course of a dungeon, and less the General and his minions since my players have been like level 3. They are almost level 9 now.

What makes a good mook(s)?

[Dr. Cliché]

I find myself having a lot of strong enemies through the course of a dungeon, and less the General and his minions since my players have been like level 3. They are almost level 9 now.

What makes a good mook(s)?

When you say 'mook' what do you actually mean?

Are you referring to the type of (relatively) weak enemy that appears en masse, or do you mean 'any baddies that don't have names'?

[HammeredWharf]

I use all kinds on mooks. Some of them are extremely weak monsters that mostly serve as obstacles. Some of them are really weak, but can do nasty things if the players let them (like swarms of shadows). Some of them are body guards and relatively tough. Some of them can be more dangerous than the boss they're protecting, if he's an evil mastermind kind of villain. Some of them pose no threat whatsoever and only exist to warn players or to make the world more detailed.

Variety is key. Always fighting the same number of foes is boring and doesn't let some builds shine.

[Fortinbro]

Mooks should be just strong enough to inflict injuries on the party or wear them down/consume resources before the boss fight.

[Alabenson]

Assuming by mooks you mean generic faceless enemies that the PCs will mow down in large numbers, a rule of thumb I generally use is that the mooks CR should be such that 5-6 is a challenge equal to the level of the party. That way they're weak enough that the party can readily take them out without being too badly drained of resources, but at the same time they can't completely discount them as a threat.

[Red Fel]

I agree with the Dr., it depends on the context.

For example, there are bog-standard dungeon encounters en route to the boss. These may or may not be mooks. Then there are the piddly little minions around the boss proper. These are probably mooks. There are also random encounters, plot encounters, and others.

As a rule, I consider something a "mook" if one of my combat-oriented PCs can or should be able to put it down in a single round. (Note the qualifier: I don't measure mookdom by the strength of PCs specifically not designed to be able to function in combat.) For example, if the party is facing a bog-standard batch of Kobolds, they are in all likelihood mooks. No fancy special abilities, no special items or armor, no templates. Just a brief and entertaining combat before you move along.

Mooks, as defined above, are boring. They're diversion encounters or cop-out encounters; rarely are they of any value on their own. Now, they're nice if I need time to hash something else out and want to keep the players engaged, and they're fine if I need some extra pain in my BBEG encounter, but honestly, they're dull.

So let's work on the next step up. Let's call them stooges. Stooges have a trick or a gimmick. They're numerous and puny, like mooks, but they've got some kind of gag which can make them a potential threat unless you figure them out. Hammered suggests Shadows, for example; that's a good call. Basically, once you have figured out the trick (as with Shadows, ways to strike incorporeal foes) they become fairly nonthreatening. These are good encounters, again no big deal, but more entertaining than mooks, at least until the trick becomes old hat.

Next step up, let's call cronies. Cronies are tougher. Cronies have higher numbers, maybe a magic item. Whereas mooks are naturally non-threatening, and stooges become non-threatening once you know the trick, cronies can only become non-threatening by out-powering them. For example, a pack of standard Orcs is a threat at lower levels. Once you get into your teens, however, they're no big threat unless you're caught with your pants down. (Particularly if they're +2 Pants of Orc Slaying.)

Up until this point, they're all manageable at and above certain levels. I'd consider any of these to be a reasonable "mook" encounter, just taking up space and encounter time until the main event. Beyond that, you get into BBEGs, major NPCs and henchmen, who are individually crafted and generally quite threatening.

That's just my two coppers, mind you.

[ace rooster]

To a high level PC, the difference between a level 1 goblin and a level 3 goblin is generally insignificant. Both die from one hit from anything the PCs will have in their arsenal. +2 to hit might be a factor, but the main difference is an extra feat. Engaging at 500ft with a heavy crossbow with far shot is a -4 to hit, without it is a -8. Firing at a party in the open (no cover for hide checks) from a hiding place (-20 to hide for sniping, +50 for range) and that 1 goblin becomes dangerous. With a potion of see invisability, and oil of magic weapon, he can be a real problem for most PCs. The strength of mooks is best measured by their tactics, so my answer to how strong they should be is the minimum strength to make a tactic effective.

[Dr. Cliché]

I agree with the Dr., it depends on the context.

For example, there are bog-standard dungeon encounters en route to the boss. These may or may not be mooks. Then there are the piddly little minions around the boss proper. These are probably mooks. There are also random encounters, plot encounters, and others.

As a rule, I consider something a "mook" if one of my combat-oriented PCs can or should be able to put it down in a single round. (Note the qualifier: I don't measure mookdom by the strength of PCs specifically not designed to be able to function in combat.) For example, if the party is facing a bog-standard batch of Kobolds, they are in all likelihood mooks. No fancy special abilities, no special items or armor, no templates. Just a brief and entertaining combat before you move along.

Mooks, as defined above, are boring. They're diversion encounters or cop-out encounters; rarely are they of any value on their own. Now, they're nice if I need time to hash something else out and want to keep the players engaged, and they're fine if I need some extra pain in my BBEG encounter, but honestly, they're dull.

So let's work on the next step up. Let's call them stooges. Stooges have a trick or a gimmick. They're numerous and puny, like mooks, but they've got some kind of gag which can make them a potential threat unless you figure them out. Hammered suggests Shadows, for example; that's a good call. Basically, once you have figured out the trick (as with Shadows, ways to strike incorporeal foes) they become fairly nonthreatening. These are good encounters, again no big deal, but more entertaining than mooks, at least until the trick becomes old hat.

Next step up, let's call cronies. Cronies are tougher. Cronies have higher numbers, maybe a magic item. Whereas mooks are naturally non-threatening, and stooges become non-threatening once you know the trick, cronies can only become non-threatening by out-powering them. For example, a pack of standard Orcs is a threat at lower levels. Once you get into your teens, however, they're no big threat unless you're caught with your pants down. (Particularly if they're +2 Pants of Orc Slaying.)

Up until this point, they're all manageable at and above certain levels. I'd consider any of these to be a reasonable "mook" encounter, just taking up space and encounter time until the main event. Beyond that, you get into BBEGs, major NPCs and henchmen, who are individually crafted and generally quite threatening.

That's just my two coppers, mind you.

I think that's a pretty good mook-hierarchy description.


What I'd like to add is that the difficulty of mook fights (well, any fight really) can often be changed drastically with terrain and tactics.

some mooks out in the open aren't much of a challenge to a mid-lv party. However, now imagine those mooks are firing arrows from behind murder-holes, or sitting behind a barricade and throwing alchemist's fire onto a pre-greased floor.

Basically, you can make encounters much more difficult without changing the mooks' level or equipment.

Just thought it was worth mentioning.

[Red Fel]

What I'd like to add is that the difficulty of mook fights (well, any fight really) can often be changed drastically with terrain and tactics.

some mooks out in the open aren't much of a challenge to a mid-lv party. However, now imagine those mooks are firing arrows from behind murder-holes, or sitting behind a barricade and throwing alchemist's fire onto a pre-greased floor.

Basically, you can make encounters much more difficult without changing the mooks' level or equipment.

Just thought it was worth mentioning.

See Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) for the now-archetypical example of mooks gone wild.

[killem2]

Sorry I didn't realize there was more than one mook. I mean the minions. The little guys who basically act as meat shields.

[HammeredWharf]

If you just want them to act as meat shields, their threat level is irrelevant. After all, they're basically moving blocks of terrain and will most likely die in one hit. However, I prefer to mix pushovers with tougher monsters. For example, an encounter could consist of a villain, his two lieutenants and a dozen or so little guys. I'd make the "big three" myself and use published monsters as the little guys, maybe with some variation between them to make things more interesting. Using Red's categories, the little guys could be a mix of mooks and stooges. I like using "boring" monsters from time to time, because everyone having a gimmick is a bit boring, too.

Are you wondering what their CR should be? To be honest, I have no idea. I find the CR system of little use. Usually I can use monsters with a CR equal to my players' ECL as mooks, but I play with people who like to optimize.

[Dr. Cliché]

Sorry I didn't realize there was more than one mook. I mean the minions. The little guys who basically act as meat shields.

Well, I've found some lv1 Kobold sorcerers amusing. You can either have them chip away at the party with magic missiles, or cast some annoying lv1 spells (e.g. grease).

Really, I tend to use mooks in one of three ways:

- In small groups. Basically, this is when just a few are scouting or on guard or somesuch. If the party is trying to be stealthy, then it might want to kill them before they can shout/run for help. Or, it might be an opportunity to take one alive and get a bit of information from it. However, the mooks themselves aren't a threat.

- in larger groups - possibly with terrain advantages (or traps). This is what it sounds like - enough mooks to potentially do some damage, but probably not enough to seriously threaten the party. Ideally, I'll have a few different types of mook - some mages, some archers, some spearmen, maybe some bombers etc.. There might be a slightly better mook leading them, but usually no one important.

- As meat-shields, distractions or secondary targets. Basically, this is when they accompany some stronger adversaries - possibly even a mini-boss villain or even the BBEG. Here, their purpose will be more to get in the way, and perhaps flank opponents to help their stronger counterparts. If they're fanatical, I might even allow nearby mooks to jump in front of arrows/spells aimed at the BBEG and take the hit for him.

Really though, I don't generally look at mooks too much. I usually just pick a low-CR creature that fits my villain's theme/scheme and make a few profiles for them with different classes/equipment.

[Afgncaap5]

I think the two biggest considerations are how easily you want the mooks to go down, and what you want the overall CR of the combat to be. I had a roughly CR 10-12 group that involved a cascading group of dwarf ninjas, each group having more powerful ninjas in fewer numbers, and each new wave running in when the previous wave had lost fifty percent of its available hitpoints. 10 CR 3 ninjas (fist fighters), 5 CR 5 ninjas (+1 Kamas tipped with black adder venom), 3 CR 7 ninjas (longswords), and their single CR 10 leader (overloaded with throwable weapons, each coated in poisons of different intensities.) I'd only call the first wave of ninjas "mooks", though the second wave might also count (though they might better be termed "stooges" using the example above.)

Due to the inverse ninja rule (and the fact that the ninjas didn't expect the players to be able to climb/fly above them in the otherwise closed-off alleyway) the ninjas ran in the end, but it was a fun fight.

[killem2]

Thanks guys, this is going to help a lot. I do have a sea adventure coming up, and I think it's time for some mooks on deck! :P