Need build help best non stupid build for level 11

[kpumphre]

Ok we are playing 3.5 and I'm tried of dieing. My dm has his sights set on taking us out. I have died/nearly died two straight weeks in a row. I survived the second week just because of a silly over looked thing my dm did. Save my guys life. I love my scout. He does average 1d0+6d6+10 with three shots per round. Not the highest ever (I can add a fourth shot or 2d for about half the battle that's just the average.) However I am getting outclassed. One friend is new he's only been playing for a few months now. However he has mastered optimizing. His character dies and he got ticked and is now making a wizard who will definitely be a optimized guy from what I have seen of him so far. The Barbarian and fighter were designed by the same guy who is a big optimizer. The bard is played by the dm's girlfriend and well same. I have been the least optimized cause I build more for flavor than anything else. So I need help here. I do not want to be the guy who dies every week cause I get invested in my characters. Random fates and some bad roll have me in trouble before now I want to make a optimized character no infinite but someone who can thrive in this game.

Level 11 Any race LA up to +2 but that will stay which means class level will only be to level 9

Stats: Assign as you like
17
13
17
14
10
18

Books: All books allowed however no dragon magazine. This is for 3.5. Nothing stupid like the candle and wish for another candle my dm will just say no and throw a book at me. No evil otherwise alignment is up. We are not using flaws. No homebrew stuff

Please help cause I am getting tired of it and know they can outclass me on build optimizations. plus the fights are all designed for optimized people.

Party
Bard halfling
Fighter goliath
Barbarian Human
Wizard ?

We are in a city in the middle of a war with two factions of the city. My dm does not like dungeon crawls so wont be underground much but do spend time half in city half in forest.

[eggynack]

What kinda thing do you actually want to be doing with your time? In the absence of that, the easiest way to build a reasonably optimized character is to just make a full caster and pick your spell list with some skill. You really don't need that much to overpower even an optimized fighter or barbarian, so it shouldn't be that difficult.

[kpumphre]

I have only played a wizard one time I don't really know any of the spells or anything. i used teleport and fireball. I would need some good spell suggestions. Class wise I was thinking crusader or something. Or a Cleric might be fun but I need help with spells that's why I haven't just built one

[nedz]

There are handbooks which can help.

Cleric (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) Crusader (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645)

We post these to avoid having to retype the same advice every time someone asks.

[Gnaeus]

I will suggest either Cleric 11, or Beguiler 11.

Beguiler 11 because they are easy to optimize, hard to make useless, and you seemed to enjoy your previous skillmonkey. If your group needs a Trapfinder, Beguilers are good. You get some good team buffs like haste, lots of room for creativity, and you can cooperate with the optimized wizard for maximum cheese. (He can scribe scrolls of spells you know, then write them into his spellbook, or write scrolls of spells he knows and then you can UMD them. Same thing with your bard.) Only problem is that you might be sharing a niche with the bard, but he can't trapfind.

Cleric 11 because you seem to lack divine casters. Clerics can almost always contribute, and with level 6 spells, you should have good stuff to do. There are several good routes to go with cleric.

[kpumphre]

no yah I use those normally. but I tend to go for what seems cool rather than optimized.

[eggynack]

There are handbooks which can help.

Cleric (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) Crusader (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645)

We post these to avoid having to retype the same advice every time someone asks.
To be fair, the spell section in the cleric handbook is a bit on the unhelpful side. Someone who is not me, and who thus has talent at optimizing a cleric list, should probably make that be less true at some point.

[Felvion]

Play a druid or a cleric. If you have trouble optimising you cant easily go wrong with those two especially the druid. Your LA may hurt the caster idea but still you will overcome the every-week-dying issue.
PS: I hope i didn't get it wrong, i suppose you are building a new characther right?

[kpumphre]

The fighter took leadership and will have a portable healer so I don't need to worry about healing for my self. Plus then the barbarian wont try and make me his heal bot as I play cleric. I'd like to try it. I never been a big spell user but I'd like to try it out.

So say Cleric 11 or is theri a good prestige class you recommend. I"m open I want to play something fun but strong enough that it will sruvive

Edit: Yes a new character. Was told to bring a backup for when I die (this was told to whole party two of us have died in two weeks now was almost 3 but I escaped)

[eggynack]

By the by, if you're running a divine caster and you absolutely need an LA of +2, then the best option is probably applying the saint template (BoED, 184). It's one of the few LA having things that actually sees mention when divine casting comes up, and while it's definitely worse than just having more caster levels, it's pretty sweet in its own right.

[kpumphre]

By the by, if you're running a divine caster and you absolutely need an LA of +2, then the best option is probably applying the saint template (BoED, 184). It's one of the few LA having things that actually sees mention when divine casting comes up, and while it's definitely worse than just having more caster levels, it's pretty sweet in its own right.

Sorry meant any race up to +2 la however their is no buy off so I'm stuck with those levels

[eggynack]

Sorry meant any race up to +2 la however their is no buy off so I'm stuck with those levels
Ah, right. That makes more sense.

[kpumphre]

So does anyone think they can help with a good build for a Cleric including equipment 60k, God, domain, feat, race, and spells? I will probably change some stuff after I understand it more but I need a basis to start from. Basically I'm stuck with to many options lol.

[Morbis Meh]

My suggestion: Lesser Aasimar divine metamagic cleric/crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Str: 17
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 18 +2 racial + 2 level= base 22 probably can afford a +4 item from 26
Cha: 17 +2 racial= 19 maybe a +2 item for 21

Domains: Planning (grants feat metamagic extend); whatever other domain you want

Cleric 1: Persist Spell
Cleric 2
Cleric 3: Divine metamagic (Persist)
Cleric 4
Crusader 1 (ECL 5)
Ruby Knight 1 (ECL 6): Extra Turning (always good to have more turn attempts)
Ruby Knight 2 (ECL 7)
Ruby Knight 3 (ECL 8)
Ruby Knight 4 (ECL 9): Power Attack
Ruby Knight 5 (ECL 10)
Ruby Knight 6 (ECL 11)

At level 11 you should be able to afford a Nightstick or two (Libris mortis; ask GM if they stack if not oh well) and also pick up a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magical item Compendium I believe) for a few more; this should allow you to persit at minimum 2 spells for 24 hours with a few remaining turn attempts for other abilities (I suggest Divine Power is one of them). You will be a walking offensive/defensive Juggernaught of divine wrath! The Crusader class and RKV is found in the Tome of Battle, which may or may not be an allowed source.

[kpumphre]

My suggestion: Lesser Aasimar divine metamagic cleric/crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Str: 17
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 18 +2 racial + 2 level= base 22 probably can afford a +4 item from 26
Cha: 17 +2 racial= 19 maybe a +2 item for 21

Domains: Planning (grants feat metamagic extend); whatever other domain you want

Cleric 1: Persist Spell
Cleric 2
Cleric 3: Divine metamagic (Persist)
Cleric 4
Crusader 1 (ECL 5)
Ruby Knight 1 (ECL 6): Extra Turning (always good to have more turn attempts)
Ruby Knight 2 (ECL 7)
Ruby Knight 3 (ECL 8)
Ruby Knight 4 (ECL 9): Power Attack
Ruby Knight 5 (ECL 10)
Ruby Knight 6 (ECL 11)

At level 11 you should be able to afford a Nightstick or two (Libris mortis; ask GM if they stack if not oh well) and also pick up a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magical item Compendium I believe) for a few more; this should allow you to persit at minimum 2 spells for 24 hours with a few remaining turn attempts for other abilities (I suggest Divine Power is one of them). You will be a walking offensive/defensive Juggernaught of divine wrath! The Crusader class and RKV is found in the Tome of Battle, which may or may not be an allowed source.

Tome of battle is allowed. The nightsticks do not stack. What spells do you suggest. What is the advantage to have the 26 wis score? Also sorry but why RKV it dosen't seem to have anything special.

[eggynack]

Also sorry but why RKV it dosen't seem to have anything special.
The biggest thing is the 7th level ability, divine impetus, which grants access to extra swift actions. If you haven't noticed, extra swift actions are really hard to come by, and a cleric can make pretty good use of those actions. Also, both clerics and crusaders are cool, and they have reasonable levels of synergy, so combining them is pretty awesome. You probably end up worse than a straight cleric, or a cleric with prestige classes that fully advance casting, but it's a rather awesome class.

[kpumphre]

ok, I think though I'll try a straghit Cleric or a prestige meant for Cleric

I figure I'll base it off Tomb tainted soul. Netural Cleric. what do you think?

How does Barbarian level 1/Cleric 10

Animal Domain
Protection domain
Tomb tainted soul

[Morbis Meh]

ok, I think though I'll try a straghit Cleric or a prestige meant for Cleric

I figure I'll base it off Tomb tainted soul. Netural Cleric. what do you think?

How does Barbarian level 1/Cleric 10

Animal Domain
Protection domain
Tomb tainted soul

Why the level of barbarian and why waste a feat to be healed by negative energy? Both those domains aren't overly good, best domains for cleric are: Travel, Luck, Time and Trickery.

I suggest you prestige out at the earliest possible time, good PrC's are: Radiant Servant of Pelor, Contempletive (extra domains are always good), Divine Oracle, Dweomerkeeper, Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist (Depending on if this nets you a separate Turn Undead Pool)

The build i presented earlier basically remains the same just substitue the crusader level with another cleric and the RKV with one of the afformentioned PrC's (also if you can get the spell domain it is worth it). As for spells: Divine Power, Righteous Might, Recitation, Greater Resist, Plane Shift, Surge of Fortune (to name a few)

The reason you want a high wisdom is because you are a primary caster, it will increase you spell DC's and your number of spells per day. (increasing your will saves is also good). Your strength coupled with righteous might and divine power will be sitting at 27, dex isn't a big deal strap on heavy armor and use magic vestment for extra ac.

[kpumphre]

Ok forget the level of barbarian but what about bone knight. The class looks pretty cool and has good flavor. Anyone ever played one of those before

[Darrin]

Also sorry but why RKV it dosen't seem to have anything special.

RKV can also be an acronym for "Relativistic Kill Vehicle". The RKV gets a class ability called Divine Recovery, which allows it to spend a turn undead attempt to recover a maneuver as a swift action. Then it gets a class ability called Divine Impetus, which lets you spend a turn undead attempt to gain another swift action.

If you can find a way to load up on a bunch of turn undeads (i.e., nightsticks), you can use all those swift actions to give yourself another turn with White Raven Tactics. On your next turn, use Divine Recovery to recover White Raven Tactics, use Divine Impetus to give yourself another swift action, then use your swift action for White Raven Tactics. Rinse & repeat.

Here's another little gem, the d2 Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3300686&postcount=38) from Bassetking (it's actually 12 levels, but kinda close to 11):

Cleric 1/Crusader 5/RKV 6
As a cleric, make sure you have the Luck domain. Take Imbued Healing (Complete Champion). At RKV 6, take the Aura of Chaos stance. Cast CLW on yourself, and arm yourself with a 1d2 weapon, such as a small-sized Feycraft kukri. Hit something with it. If you roll a 2 (max damage), Aura of Chaos means you roll again and add it to your damage. If you roll a 1, Imbued Healing makes it a 2... so, yeah, ask your DM if he wants to spend the rest of eternity watching you roll infinite damage.

(You can pull this off a level earlier with Uncanny Trickster: Cleric 1/Crusader 3/RKV 4/Uncanny Trickster 3, but you have to use Favored/Primary Contact to get into RKV a level early.)

[arkangel111]

if your really worried about dieing you could always do a summoner type. Vanish or invisibility in round one and summon like mad, It could bog down the game a little if you let it get out of hand, but if you stick to feats and spells that buff your summons it shouldn't be too bad just focusing on 1-2 summoned creatures per combat. It kinda makes your guy feel a little on the bleh side but you're almost guaranteed to survive, while still getting to do things during combat with your summons.

[kpumphre]

RKV can also be an acronym for "Relativistic Kill Vehicle". The RKV gets a class ability called Divine Recovery, which allows it to spend a turn undead attempt to recover a maneuver as a swift action. Then it gets a class ability called Divine Impetus, which lets you spend a turn undead attempt to gain another swift action.

If you can find a way to load up on a bunch of turn undeads (i.e., nightsticks), you can use all those swift actions to give yourself another turn with White Raven Tactics. On your next turn, use Divine Recovery to recover White Raven Tactics, use Divine Impetus to give yourself another swift action, then use your swift action for White Raven Tactics. Rinse & repeat.

Here's another little gem, the d2 Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3300686&postcount=38) from Bassetking (it's actually 12 levels, but kinda close to 11):

Cleric 1/Crusader 5/RKV 6
As a cleric, make sure you have the Luck domain. Take Imbued Healing (Complete Champion). At RKV 6, take the Aura of Chaos stance. Cast CLW on yourself, and arm yourself with a 1d2 weapon, such as a small-sized Feycraft kukri. Hit something with it. If you roll a 2 (max damage), Aura of Chaos means you roll again and add it to your damage. If you roll a 1, Imbued Healing makes it a 2... so, yeah, ask your DM if he wants to spend the rest of eternity watching you roll infinite damage.

(You can pull this off a level earlier with Uncanny Trickster: Cleric 1/Crusader 3/RKV 4/Uncanny Trickster 3, but you have to use Favored/Primary Contact to get into RKV a level early.)

Why not it's not like it's always infinite damage. Ok hmm would a gnome with kurki work?

Can you explain how that would work with the uncanny trickster

[Darrin]

Why not it's not like it's always infinite damage.


But... it is always infinite damge. That's the point of using a 1d2 weapon. 1 = infinite damage, 2 = infinite damage.



Ok hmm would a gnome with kurki work?


If the kurki was tiny-sized or feycraft (DMGII), yes. A small-sized light shield would also work.



Can you explain how that would work with the uncanny trickster

Aura of Chaos is a 6th level stance, so you need an Initiator Level of 11 to qualify for it. But the Crusader stance progression is mucked up. You only get a new stance at Cru 1, 2, 8, and 14. RKV 6 also gets a new stance. In Bassetking's original build, you can grab a stance at ECL 12 via the Martial Stance feat. To get a new stance at ECL 11, we need to buff up our Initiator Level earlier than usual and get a new stance.

Uncanny Trickster is not a martial adept class, so each level only advances our IL by +0.5. However, Uncanny Trickster 2 and 3 also advance the class abilities of another class, in this case RKV. So we get all the class features of RKV 5 and RKV 6, including +1.0 IL and a stance at RKV 6. Here's a breakdown:

1) Cleric 1. Feat: Favored. IL = 0.5
2) Crusader 1. IL = 1.5
3) Crusader 2. Feat: Primary Contact. IL = 2.5
4) Crusader 3. History (Religion) = 8 ranks IL = 3.5
5) RKV 1. IL = 4.5
6) RKV 2. Feat: Imbued Healing. IL = 5.5
7) RKV 3. IL = 6.5
8) RKV 4. IL = 7.5
9) Uncanny Trickster 1. Feat: Skill Focus (Basket-Weaving). IL = 8.0
10) Uncanny Trickster 2. (RKV 5) IL = 9.5
11) Uncanny Trickster 3. (RKV6) IL = 11.0

Note: Actually using this build will cause the DM to throw books at your head.

[nedz]

To be fair, the spell section in the cleric handbook is a bit on the unhelpful side. Someone who is not me, and who thus has talent at optimizing a cleric list, should probably make that be less true at some point.
So your saying that we need a new Cleric Handbook ?
You may be right, sounds like a job for the playground ?


But... it is always infinite damge. That's the point of using a 1d2 weapon. 1 = infinite damage, 2 = infinite damage.
This could be problematic if the DM expects you to actually roll this.
Zeno would like a word, ..., as would Turing.


Aura of Chaos is a 6th level stance, so you need an Initiator Level of 11 to qualify for it. But the Crusader stance progression is mucked up. You only get a new stance at Cru 1, 2, 8, and 14. RKV 6 also gets a new stance. In Bassetking's original build, you can grab a stance at ECL 12 via the Martial Stance feat. To get a new stance at ECL 11, we need to buff up our Initiator Level earlier than usual and get a new stance.

Uncanny Trickster is not a martial adept class, so each level only advances our IL by +0.5. However, Uncanny Trickster 2 and 3 also advance the class abilities of another class, in this case RKV. So we get all the class features of RKV 5 and RKV 6, including +1.0 IL and a stance at RKV 6. Here's a breakdown:

1) Cleric 1. Feat: Favored. IL = 0.5
2) Crusader 1. IL = 1.5
3) Crusader 2. Feat: Primary Contact. IL = 2.5
4) Crusader 3. History (Religion) = 8 ranks IL = 3.5
5) RKV 1. IL = 4.5
6) RKV 2. Feat: Imbued Healing. IL = 5.5
7) RKV 3. IL = 6.5
8) RKV 4. IL = 7.5
9) Uncanny Trickster 1. Feat: Skill Focus (Basket-Weaving). IL = 8.0
10) Uncanny Trickster 2. (RKV 5) IL = 9.5
11) Uncanny Trickster 3. (RKV6) IL = 11.0

Note: Actually using this build will cause the DM to throw books at your head.
OP said no ToB, though it would be useful to know what flavour of Cleric he's looking for ? Any Cleric build is going to be powerful, well barring healbots.

[kpumphre]

OP said no ToB, though it would be useful to know what flavour of Cleric he's looking for ? Any Cleric build is going to be powerful, well barring healbots.

I said TOB is fine any book is allowed just not dragon magazine. My group has healing anyway so not worried about it. Something that can dish out either kill spells or can deal good damage.

To Darrin: Can't you retrain at every even level one of your current moves/stances.

Edit: Nevermind it says you can not do that with stances. but 3cleric /8 crusader would work

[Darrin]

Edit: Nevermind it says you can not do that with stances. but 3cleric /8 crusader would work

Not for a 6th level stance. Cleric 3/Crusader 8 has an IL = 9.5 (Cleric IL = 1.5, Crusader IL = 8.0).

[Svata]

My suggestion: Lesser Aasimar divine metamagic cleric/crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Str: 17
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 18 +2 racial + 2 level= base 22 probably can afford a +4 item from 26
Cha: 17 +2 racial= 19 maybe a +2 item for 21

Domains: Planning (grants feat metamagic extend); whatever other domain you want

Cleric 1: Persist Spell
Cleric 2
Cleric 3: Divine metamagic (Persist)
Cleric 4
Crusader 1 (ECL 5)
Ruby Knight 1 (ECL 6): Extra Turning (always good to have more turn attempts)
Ruby Knight 2 (ECL 7)
Ruby Knight 3 (ECL 8)
Ruby Knight 4 (ECL 9): Power Attack
Ruby Knight 5 (ECL 10)
Ruby Knight 6 (ECL 11)

At level 11 you should be able to afford a Nightstick or two (Libris mortis; ask GM if they stack if not oh well) and also pick up a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magical item Compendium I believe) for a few more; this should allow you to persit at minimum 2 spells for 24 hours with a few remaining turn attempts for other abilities (I suggest Divine Power is one of them). You will be a walking offensive/defensive Juggernaught of divine wrath! The Crusader class and RKV is found in the Tome of Battle, which may or may not be an allowed source.

Build as posted does not work, need extend to take persist.

[eggynack]

So your saying that we need a new Cleric Handbook ?
You may be right, sounds like a job for the playground ?

Pretty much, at least for spells. I just don't think that having a big list of good spells, without description, reasoning, or explanation, is sufficient. I'm not all that sure if other sections are good enough or not, but there's always more to say about a tier one class. They're like frigging fractals.

[nedz]

Pretty much, at least for spells. I just don't think that having a big list of good spells, without description, reasoning, or explanation, is sufficient. I'm not all that sure if other sections are good enough or not, but there's always more to say about a tier one class. They're like frigging fractals.

There are approximately 1449 Cleric spells — so this would be quite a big task to put it mildly. Also consider the combo permutations.

[eggynack]

There are approximately 1449 Cleric spells — so this would be quite a big task to put it mildly. Also consider the combo permutations.
I wouldn't assume a full list of every spell along with their quality and description. That'd just get absurd. Realistically, the list provided in the cleric handbook could be sufficient. It just needs justification for the items listed, because just seeing the spell "Spiritual Guardian" tells me very little about the game, and there is thus a need for a great deal of research on the reader's part. I suppose the list could be a bit more expansive as well though. It doesn't even appear to mention sanctified spells, which are particularly sweet for clerics as they can be cast spontaneously.

[Morbis Meh]

Build as posted does not work, need extend to take persist.

...read again; The Planning Domain grants the feat Extend Spell so it is 100% legal