Roy is not obligated to redeem Miko

[SPoD]

OK, so, since this is already all over the main thread:

Roy is not a paladin, and he is not part of the Sapphire Guard or the political structure of Azure City. He has no stake in what happens to her, personally. And any respect that would be due to her on account of being a sentient being was long since worn away by her behavior, culminating with the slaughter of a defenseless ally. Who, of course, was in the process of saving the universe from pure Evil. He has no obligation to try to talk sense into her, especially after all the times he's tried and watched his words go in one ear and out the other.

Further, every encounter he has had with her has resulted in her drawing swords first and whupping him. Again, he's not a paladin or a cavalier or anything. He is not required to be chivalrous and allow an enemy to be prepared. A pre-emptive strike is a valid tactic against a known superior combatant. And make no mistake, as soon as she cut down Shojo, she was an enemy of Roy's. If killing your employer doesn't count as being an enemy, what does?

And comparing it to Miko killing Shojo is ridiculous. Shojo was only unarmed, seated, in his 80's (according to Roy, today), and has no combat capability. Miko is armed with her sword, is standing and facing Roy when he strikes, is physically fit, and is a known capable combatant who has beaten him twice. Further, Miko only had circumstantial evidence and unsupported supposition against Shojo, while Roy just watched Miko commit murder and then watched 12 Good-aligned gods judge her for it. They couldn't be more different.

Why on earth does anyone think he should have tried to talk to her?? I understand that people who like Miko want her to have a chance at redemption, and that's OK. But hating Roy because he decided to attack while he could seems like going out of your way to convince yourself that Miko is being persecuted.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I abosolutely agree.

[Lord Zentei]

Verily: what he did was reasonable based on the information he had. While one can claim he was hasty, that's irrelevant; he wasn't obligated to help her out at that point.

[Finwe]

The problem is that he attacked her without even taking the time to let her think about what she's done, or even any real warning. He basically said "I'm going to attack you now" and then swung. He didn't give her a chance to surrender herself, or to see what she planned to do next. He wasn't obligated to do this, sure, but he so often claimed moral superiority over Miko because she does the same thing.


Was Roy justified in attacking Miko? Yes, he was.

Was Roy's course of action the best one, or good from an alignment standpoint? Absolutely not. Were he a paladin, he himself would be dangerously close to falling for his actions.



Edit - she definitely still has the potential to atone, if only someone tries to show compassion to her. She still wants to do the gods will, but she was attacked when she most needed time to think.

[Serenity]

Anything more accomodating to Miko would be Lawful Stupid, which Roy decidedly isn't. Even paladins aren't supposed to give every evil villain a holler before they slam home the Sword of Justice. Especially not when the foe is demonstratably dangerous, perfectly capable of acting, and you witnessed their heinous crime with your own two eyes seconds ago.

What was he supposed to do? Pull up a chair and ask if she wants to talk about it?

[Pronounceable]

Agreed here. Poor goblins in Xykon's employ had done much less yet they were killed by OotS. And I'm sure none but the goblins themselves would find fault with them.

Some might argue that Miko can't be compared to goblins, I'll flat out tell them they're wrong. Goblins were NPCs and Miko is an NPC, so they're equal (Miko a bit MORE equal since she has a name but still). ONLY the OotS deserve special attention by the DM/writer. Think of this: If you were Roy's player, would you not try to kill a major NPC who has caused you much IC grief, railroaded you campaign and has just killed your employer, what would you do? Talk reason into her?

Be a real DnD player and don't lie to yourself just because you like some fictional character from a webcomic...

[garylian]

Roy was justified in attacking her, since she had just killed Shojo. So, as a character in the story, it made perfect sense.

We, as outsiders, can see that his actions may not have been the best course of action AT THAT TIME, though. Miko was, for the very first time that we ever really saw, questioning her actions. And instead of letting her work through it, he opened his can off whoop-butt.

Was he wrong to do so? No. And we will never know what WOULD have happened had he not. But there is a chance that Miko's head was being pulled out of her backside by the gods, and Roy may have kicked it right back in.

So, many of us see both sides of it. It was awesome to see Roy have his spine back, but the timing sure seemed to suck!

[Demented]

Being Chaotic Evil, I'd think that having Miko imprisoned would be a much better alternative. My justification: "Your approval fills me with shame." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html)

Physically compelling her to spend time with herself! Pure evil genius!

[WarriorTribble]

I think he should've tried talking first simply because I think there was a fair chance she could've been incapacitated through words. Now I don't mean sweet talk her like a certain Star Trek counselor, but instead harshly insult her devotion to the gods and break her into a neurotic mess. That imo should've at least been tried, talking being a free action and all.

With that said I don't think what Roy did was wrong, just not the optimal course of action.

[SPoD]

Roy was justified in attacking her, since she had just killed Shojo. So, as a character in the story, it made perfect sense.

We, as outsiders, can see that his actions may not have been the best course of action AT THAT TIME, though. Miko was, for the very first time that we ever really saw, questioning her actions. And instead of letting her work through it, he opened his can off whoop-butt.

Was he wrong to do so? No. And we will never know what WOULD have happened had he not. But there is a chance that Miko's head was being pulled out of her backside by the gods, and Roy may have kicked it right back in.

So, many of us see both sides of it. It was awesome to see Roy have his spine back, but the timing sure seemed to suck!

Oh, I agree. This will certainly come back to bite him. As the FAQ says, this comic is about the stupid things these adventurers do, even when there are better alternatives available. Elan is dumb, Haley is greedy, Belkar is psychotic, and Roy says mean things. It's his main character flaw (and his main source of comedy) and has been for years, I don't know why anyone would be surprised for it to show up now.

[Snake-Aes]

as much as you're right, I have to ask: WHO claimed to hate Roy because he isn't helping her at that? I want her to have a happy ending and all but...why blame Roy? that wouldn't make me much better than Miko is right now with those conclusions o.õ

[Yogi]

To make another comparison, lets say a terrorist Saddam bin Ladin, thinking he was doing the will of God, managed to kill the President of the United States. Should the Secret Service try to talk to him afterwards (no matter how sorry he looks) or do they commence with the ass kicking?

[LordVader]

Stopped through words? Did you pay attention to 407? "It's like she has that monk ability that lets you jump as far as you want, except for her, it applies to conclusions?" Talking will not work. Even now, she's trying to blame Roy for orchestrating the whole thing after her own gods stripped her of her power.

[Kian]

I think he should have stuck to doing what he first intended to do. Stay out of it and see how Hinjo dealt with the situation. If Miko went hostile against Hinjo, or he asked him to attack, then he should have acted. As was pointed out, he had no obligation to uphold the law of the land.

[Raistlin1040]

Preaching to the choir. I think most people agree that Miko deserves what happened.

[Serenity]

Again, for those saying that her momentary doubt should have been taken as the opportunity to talk her down...what guarantee does Roy have that conversation wouldn't have gone almost exactly the same?Yes, she was doubtful for the moment, but there's no reason she wouldn't have rationalized it just as quickly whether Roy attacked or no.

[WarriorTribble]

Stopped through words? Did you pay attention to 407? "It's like she has that monk ability that lets you jump as far as you want, except for her, it applies to conclusions?" Talking will not work. Even now, she's trying to blame Roy for orchestrating the whole thing after her own gods stripped her of her power.Not too sure if this was adressed to me... but anywhoo. Well we'll never know for sure, however even without a code talk should've been attempted, and lets face it, being smacked in the face with a sword makes it real hard for someone to think rationally.

[WarriorTribble]

Again, for those saying that her momentary doubt should have been taken as the opportunity to talk her down...what guarantee does Roy have that conversation wouldn't have gone almost exactly the same?Yes, she was doubtful for the moment, but there's no reason she wouldn't have rationalized it just as quickly whether Roy attacked or no.You're right we don't know. The best thing to do in that situation is to take a defensive posture, then talk....

[Entertainer13]

The problem is that he attacked her without even taking the time to let her think about what she's done, or even any real warning. He basically said "I'm going to attack you now" and then swung. He didn't give her a chance to surrender herself, or to see what she planned to do next. He wasn't obligated to do this, sure, but he so often claimed moral superiority over Miko because she does the same thing.


Was Roy justified in attacking Miko? Yes, he was.

Was Roy's course of action the best one, or good from an alignment standpoint? Absolutely not. Were he a paladin, he himself would be dangerously close to falling for his actions.



Edit - she definitely still has the potential to atone, if only someone tries to show compassion to her. She still wants to do the gods will, but she was attacked when she most needed time to think.
Yeah, I know plenty of police officers who let murderers have "time to think about their actions" before they try and track them down. Makes perfect sense to me. :smallconfused:


You're right we don't know. The best thing to do in that situation is to take a defensive posture, then talk....
Yes, because people who are proven to be mentally unstable and dangerous to you and your allies don't deserve a smackdown and imprisonment.

[Shadic]

To make another comparison, lets say a terrorist Saddam bin Ladin, thinking he was doing the will of God, managed to kill the President of the United States. Should the Secret Service try to talk to him afterwards (no matter how sorry he looks) or do they commence with the ass kicking?

Bush and Shojo have vastly different viewings by those they control, though. *Resists urge to insult*

Roy was justified in what he did, even if he didn't think it all the way through. He is a FIGHTER. That is what he does.

[Raistlin1040]

Saddam Huessein and Osama Bin Laden. There is no saddam bin ladin ((Bugs me something awful))

[SPoD]

Likewise. I liked Miko, now she fell and I'm not sure what she will become. The last thing I needed was to start hating a member of the OOTS. His actions, his remarks do no fit with the hero in the strip. Hinjo went to his uncle, Roy only cared about himself and his frustration. I really didn't like this strip.


Yeah -- I mean really how much different is what Roy is doing than what she was doing?? There was no reason....


I didn't actively dislike him before but his current behavior is certainly pushing me in that directon.[/FONT]


Also, I like Roy less and less.


Very, very disappointed in Roy. Seriously, Miko might have been able to see the truth he didn't go and attack her like that.

Since someone asked who was saying such things, it was comments like the above that prompted my opening post.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Again, for those saying that her momentary doubt should have been taken as the opportunity to talk her down...what guarantee does Roy have that conversation wouldn't have gone almost exactly the same?Yes, she was doubtful for the moment, but there's no reason she wouldn't have rationalized it just as quickly whether Roy attacked or no.

But she was forced to leap to conclusions by Roy's actions. Whether or not she would've reached the same end result is meaningless, because she wasn't given the chance.

Now, I'm not saying that Roy is obligated to redeem Miko, but there were two separate occasions in there where you can see Miko trying to step back from the fight and get time to work things out - her exact words are "No! This isn't fair... I have to... I have to have time to figure out what the gods want me to do next." - and she's saying that after Roy interrupts her first moment of introspection and has been beating her rather soundly. Roy's actions may have been justified, but he really screwed the pooch on this one.

[theKOT]

Stopped through words? Did you pay attention to 407? "It's like she has that monk ability that lets you jump as far as you want, except for her, it applies to conclusions?" Talking will not work. Even now, she's trying to blame Roy for orchestrating the whole thing after her own gods stripped her of her power.
I think she had paused. She was not a threat at the time, and what happened to the cry of subdual damage Anti-Miko types are always raising?

The whole thing seems strange and illogical. Roy attacks her when she is stunned and yells insults that seem to have no point. What was he hoping to accomplish? He has already vented his feelings to Miko. Twice. Wouldn't it have been smarter for him to shut up and battle? Even better, couldn't he have knocked her out and decided what to do later? It wouldn't have offered her a chance to escape, it would have incapacitated her, and it would have allowed the proper authorities to deal with the situation. Instead, he puts his personal vengeance ahead of everything. Miko was FINALLY having an introspective moment, and he decides the chance is just too good to pass up.

Maybe I'm being to hard on Roy. Maybe he's just dumb. REALLY dumb. Doesn't-think-before-he-acts dumb.

[Snake-Aes]

I do think he sucked at that, Roy was so...so HUMAN when he reacted like that...

[WarriorTribble]

Yes, because people who are proven to be mentally unstable and dangerous to you and your allies don't deserve a smackdown and imprisonment.I'm not discussing what she deserves, I'm talking about getting though this with minimal issues. Yes, Miko deserves is an ass kicking, but for the sake of the city, and his mission I was hoping Roy would wait until after the dust settled so to speak. Hinjo would probably be better off w/o the stress of dealing with why Miko a paladin (in everone else's eyes at least) was injured, or even killed by an outsider.

[Elfwitch]

Agreed here. Poor goblins in Xykon's employ had done much less yet they were killed by OotS. And I'm sure none but the goblins themselves would find fault with them.

Some might argue that Miko can't be compared to goblins, I'll flat out tell them they're wrong. Goblins were NPCs and Miko is an NPC, so they're equal (Miko a bit MORE equal since she has a name but still). ONLY the OotS deserve special attention by the DM/writer. Think of this: If you were Roy's player, would you not try to kill a major NPC who has caused you much IC grief, railroaded you campaign and has just killed your employer, what would you do? Talk reason into her?

Be a real DnD player and don't lie to yourself just because you like some fictional character from a webcomic...

I am a real DnD player and what I would have done if this happened in my game would depend on my character.

The character I am playing now would have pulled out her bow and tried to shoot her.

My character that I played in Kingdomes of Kalamar who was a LG fighter would have pulled out her sword and activated its special power which allowed me to do subdual damage in place of lethal and tried to bring her to legal justice.

My elven sorcerer who belived in trying to redeem all manner of folk would have cast slow on her then a spell my DM designed on psionic power mindwipe.

And in the games I play in and DM NPCs are just as important as the PCs and my players know that they won't get special consideration just because they are the PCs. And I hate playing in a game where NPCs are just fodder for XP. And PCs get carte blanche to do what ever they want to NPCs and get away with soley because they are PCs.

Now I agree Roy is not obligated to redeem Miko but I disagree with his actions. He should have readied and action to attack Miko and then demanded her surrender. And if she refused then attacked her.

[teratorn]

Since someone asked who was saying such things, it was comments like the above that prompted my opening post.

What bothers me is not Roy killing her, in fact I think Miko just finished her role and should die. What I fail to understand is why the Giant lowers Roy's character by making him sound like a sexist pig. He used to say mean things to Elan but this stuff is in the Belkar department. I like my heros a bit more mature than that. I now feel that Roy has some traits from Belkar but without the funny aspects. Durkon is the only adult in the group.

[chibibar]

the thing is that roy see a paladin with some serious issues and now went to slay an old man who is trying to save the world. Roy is actually being the LG here. Miko just slay Shojo..... in cold blood.... Shojo unarmed. What would any LG do?

Normally this would be the doing of an evil person slaying a good person, Miko did the killing and well, to Roy, Miko has lost it and should be stop. I don't think he would kill her. Roy does have some serious combat ability but trying to stop Miko and knock some sense into her (I hope)

[SPoD]

The whole thing seems strange and illogical. Roy attacks her when she is stunned and yells insults that seem to have no point. What was he hoping to accomplish? He has already vented his feelings to Miko. Twice. Wouldn't it have been smarter for him to shut up and battle?

IT'S A COMEDY STRIP! Those insults were JOKES. They are part and parcel of the comedy that is inherent in comedy stories! he was hoping to accomplish getting a laugh out of the readers.

Has everyone forgotten what story they are reading??


Even better, couldn't he have knocked her out and decided what to do later? It wouldn't have offered her a chance to escape, it would have incapacitated her, and it would have allowed the proper authorities to deal with the situation.

What evidence do you have that he wasn't trying to knock her out? He's a fighter, she has a boatload of hp, this is pretty much the only option available. Unless he wants to take a -4 to attack when he admits that his only advantage over her is that he's once again using his favored weapon. Note that he said he was going to kick her ass, not kill her.

[Demented]

Maybe Roy should've just done the following:

:roy: "Alright, Miko, here's how it's going down. I'm going to beat you. I am going to beat you until you're in negative hitpoints, choking on your own blood. Then, I'm going to heal check until you stabilize or die. If you stabilize, I'm dragging you to the deepest part of the dungeon, where you can spend your time accusing cockroaches of summoning evil. Don't bother surrendering–it won't make a difference."
:miko: "You... GAHhK!"

Later....

:miko: "Uh... wha?"
:redcloak: "Sir, the hobgoblins have successfully tunneled into the dungeon. Now we just need to give the signal and while the battle rages sneak into the palace, and..."
:xykon: "What is that?"
:redcloak: "Gods, it's that paladin again!"
:roach: "Yay, we'll have a sacrifice for the great summoning!"

Maybe the second part's just for humor. But the first part is a perfectly acceptable way of taking down a threatening opponent. Beat into submission, stabilize later.

[Landon_Fox]

Perhaps a comparison would be helpful.

Let's say that you are an American soldier. Let us say that Canada had requested your help and you start work directly for the Canadian President. After a bit of working for him, the ranking member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (forgive me if I don't remember the acronym correctly) walks in, raves like a psychotic, and guns down the President. Shortly after that, the generals of the Canadian army announce on the intercom that that wasn't what they wanted the Mountie to do.


What do you do:

A. Stand there and try to talk down the dangerous psychotic standing next to the vice president despite having no skill at it.
B. Pull out your gun and put her down before she can hurt anyone else.

I'd say number B.

[Elfwitch]

Yeah, I know plenty of police officers who let murderers have "time to think about their actions" before they try and track them down. Makes perfect sense to me. :smallconfused:


Yes, because people who are proven to be mentally unstable and dangerous to you and your allies don't deserve a smackdown and imprisonment.

Yeah the police just blow someone away without giving them the chance to surrender. :smallconfused:

She desreved to be brought to justice which I believe Azure City has a justice system was not Hinjo calling for the guards to arrest Shojo. Roy or Belkar killing her is not justice it is vengence.

[Deastorm]

Saddam Huessein and Osama Bin Laden. There is no saddam bin ladin ((Bugs me something awful))

There are rules in the forum that forbid real world politics, which they had adhered to in letter if not spirit. And you misspelled the common transliteration of Hussein. (which as an Arabic linguist, bugged me not at all)

Afterthought: Do you know how many children bin Laden has? There probably is a Saddam bin Laden somewhere.

[slayerx]

Again, for those saying that her momentary doubt should have been taken as the opportunity to talk her down...what guarantee does Roy have that conversation wouldn't have gone almost exactly the same?Yes, she was doubtful for the moment, but there's no reason she wouldn't have rationalized it just as quickly whether Roy attacked or no.
He didn't have any guarantee... however, Miko being the one to attack him first and accuse him of consipricy FIRST, would have made roy's attack on her perefectly right... i mean, the was a CHANCE that miko could have seen the light, being put on the road to a true warrior for good, but Roy threw all possible chance away...


To make another comparison, lets say a terrorist Saddam bin Ladin, thinking he was doing the will of God, managed to kill the President of the United States. Should the Secret Service try to talk to him afterwards (no matter how sorry he looks) or do they commence with the ass kicking?
few errors with that comparison...
1) miko never killed a single innocent person before Shojo, and was punished by the god's themselves after she did... as opposed to your example, who has already killed millions of innocents... a better comparison would a be a (hot headed) secret service agent who has served loyally for years untill this incident
2) the secret service are actually authority figures, Roy is not and has no juristicion; he would be cnsidered a civilain in this matter...
3) assuming the nutcase wasn't someone who killed millions and this was the very first and only offence (refer to first error), and the nutcase had now dropped his weapon and looked like he was on his knees in a state of complete confusion... i think the secret service would arrest them and NOT just shoot them when they are down
4) the president, ain't exactly as likable or as good as Shojo...

[Serenity]

What bothers me is not Roy killing her, in fact I think Miko just finished her role and should die. What I fail to understand is why the Giant lowers Roy's character by making him sound like a sexist pig. He used to say mean things to Elan but this stuff is in the Belkar department. I like my heros a bit more mature than that. I now feel that Roy has some traits from Belkar but without the funny aspects. Durkon is the only adult in the group.

Yes, he's trying to make her mad. Because angry opponents are reckless opponents--that's why Barbarians take AC penalties when they rage. It's part of his character that he insults people regularly. He's never pretended to be otherwise. Where did people start getting the idea that the OotS were exemplary people?

[Elfwitch]

Perhaps a comparison would be helpful.

Let's say that you are an American soldier. Let us say that Canada had requested your help and you start work directly for the Canadian President. After a bit of working for him, the ranking member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (forgive me if I don't remember the acronym correctly) walks in, raves like a psychotic, and guns down the President. Shortly after that, the generals of the Canadian army announce on the intercom that that wasn't what they wanted the Mountie to do.


What do you do:

A. Stand there and try to talk down the dangerous psychotic standing next to the vice president despite having no skill at it.
B. Pull out your gun and put her down before she can hurt anyone else.

I'd say number B.

B of course. Becuae the person has a gun. Not the same in DnD where you have swords and such and can avoid being hit and even if you do get hit a fighter of Roy's level ain't going down with one hit.

You just cannot compare modern day real life with DnD.

[indianajoe]

I'm just wondering is there a Roy Fanclub? Cause it seems to me that he needs one.

[Golt]

what he did was reasonable based on the information he had. While one can claim he was hasty, that's irrelevant

No argues here. Must I remind anyone however that this can not be a valid defense if it wasn't a valid defense for Miko.

And no, I'm not saying that what she did wasn't evil or wrong. I'm just saiyng that if we consider their actions from their respective points of view, they've acted exactly the same.

[Snake-Aes]

I do think, like SpoD said, Roy wouldn't really KILL her. It's not his thing to kill anyone of that importance.

[SPoD]

Shortly after that, the generals of the Canadian army announce on the intercom that that wasn't what they wanted the Mountie to do.

Actually, I would say a better analogy would be, "Then Vishnu appeared in a glow of holy energy and says, 'That's not what I wanted at all.'"

I mean, these are gods, not generals. Even if they're not Roy's gods, he knows them to be Good because they grant paladin powers to the Sapphire Guard. They are Objectively Good in this world.

[theKOT]

IT'S A COMEDY STRIP! Those insults were JOKES. They are part and parcel of the comedy that is inherent in comedy stories! he was hoping to accomplish getting a laugh out of the readers.

Has everyone forgotten what story they are reading??



What evidence do you have that he wasn't trying to knock her out? He's a fighter, she has a boatload of hp, this is pretty much the only option available. Unless he wants to take a -4 to attack when he admits that his only advantage over her is that he's once again using his favored weapon. Note that he said he was going to kick her ass, not kill her.
To A:
It's a plot strip with jokes, not a comedy strip. Even so, comedy doesn't excuse out-of-character behavior in dramatic situations for humors sake.
To B:
Belkar knocked her out cold no problem. Miko had her backed turned, but he announced his attack and did something that presented the opportunity for a dangerous lunatic to escape. Besides, you think he couldn't have asked her to surrender before attacking? He did launch into a speech about why he had to attack her. It just seems illogical. And dumb. REALLY REALLY dumb.

[Snake-Aes]

Actually, I would say a better analogy would be, "Then Vishnu appeared in a glow of holy energy and says, 'That's not what I wanted at all.'"

I mean, these are gods, not generals. Even if they're not Roy's gods, he knows them to be Good because they grant paladin powers to the Sapphire Guard. They are Objectively Good in this world.


That's pretty much what the Twelve gods did, actually.

[SPoD]

Roy doesn't know that Belkar knocked her out.


Yes, he's trying to make her mad. Because angry opponents are reckless opponents--that's why Barbarians take AC penalties when they rage. It's part of his character that he insults people regularly. He's never pretended to be otherwise. Where did people start getting the idea that the OotS were exemplary people?

Thank you again! For all we know, Roy has a "Taunt" feat that allows him to lower an opponent's AC when he insults them. It certainly would fit his character.

[Demented]

I dunno, Saddam bin Laden sounds a lot like Yusef O'Malley.

As for Roy, he's not a policeman. Admittedly, a police man might have done things differently. Though, it's hard to say. Guns kill people fast. In D&D, swords kill people slowly. Miko picked up her sword, but she seemed dazed, not overtly threatening.

On the other hand, the way she's wielding that sword, it seems almost a weak, shaking defensive stance she's holding in Shojo's general direction, i.e. the kind that beaten villains use to defend themselves while the protagonist is kicking their a** near the middle of the film, before the villain escapes for the final battle.

Edit:
You guys post... lots.

[silvadel]

1) She has already been judged by the gods.

2) She was not even armed in some of the panels and harmlessly looking at the sword when she was.

3) She was not even in the moment.

---

Roy is too intelligent to get away with this. He should have grabbed her sword while she was sitting there -- then maybe blocked the exit.

Plus regardless -- you cant have too many high level warriors when an army of hobgoblins is knocking at your door. (Even if she doesnt agree to anything, you can always have V charm or domiate her with her now lower saves).

---

At any rate -- if miko fell there -- if Roy were a paladin he would have made it population 2. Yes I have lost some respect for Roy and if anyone has been showing more Neut than Good in the past 100 odd strips it is Roy.

[Snake-Aes]

Guns kill people fast. In D&D, swords kill people slowly. Miko picked up her sword, but she seemed dazed, not overtly threatening.

Just a nitpick: Swords kill people just as fast as guns, if not faster: 1d8 damage to a level 1 commoner(pretty much EVERYONE except the soldiers and pc-related people).
You might think otherwise because you never saw a level 10 fighter being dropped by a single longsword hit. But a regular person would.

[theKOT]

Roy doesn't know that Belkar knocked her out.

No, but he seems to have a tangible grasp on his world's mechanics. It was worth a try, seeing as he totally pwns her now. It still doesn't excuse not giving her the chance to surrender. Even Miko offered the OOTS a half-chance.

Yes, he's trying to make her mad. Because angry opponents are reckless opponents--that's why Barbarians take AC penalties when they rage. It's part of his character that he insults people regularly. He's never pretended to be otherwise. Where did people start getting the idea that the OotS were exemplary people?
To the first part: She is way too shaken up and weakened for him to need to do that.
To the second: I'm just saying he acted far, far less than exemplary. I never said he acted unexpectedly.

[Serenity]

Need for warriors or no, you'd have to be pretty nuts to hand a sword to a an unstable woman who just killed the city's ruler...

[chibibar]

Also Roy doesn't take his allies going down easily... he tends to go nuts on it (as someone said before... Roy really defends those he care for to the max regardless of his own personal safety)

[Demented]

Just a nitpick: Swords kill people just as fast as guns, if not faster: 1d8 damage to a level 1 commoner(pretty much EVERYONE except the soldiers and pc-related people).
You might think otherwise because you never saw a level 10 fighter being dropped by a single longsword hit. But a regular person would.

True, but if we're talking a level 1 warrior going up against Miko, he'd just run in the other direction. =P

So it's a level 10 Fighter versus a level 14/2 Ex-Paladin/Monk.... Oh hell, he should still just run in the other direction. Now, if he's a level 13 Fighter, he's probably better off....

[Yogi]

I wasn't specifically talking about Bush, just a Very High Ranking Government Official. Make it Tony Blair or whoever.

Also, I know there is no Saddam bin Ladin. I just didn't want to use real people's names.

[theKOT]

True, but if we're talking a level 1 warrior going up against Miko, he'd just run in the other direction. =P

So it's a level 10 Fighter versus a level 14/2 Ex-Paladin/Monk.... Oh hell, he should still just run in the other direction. Now, if he's a level 13 Fighter, he's probably better off....
Well there's the sword thing, and the fact that Miko doesn't really want to fight. He sure is kicking her butt irregardless.

[teratorn]

Thank you again! For all we know, Roy has a "Taunt" feat that allows him to lower an opponent's AC when he insults them. It certainly would fit his character.

My problem is that I did not find them funny, just the opposite. If Belkar had said the "needs to get laid" thing I would laughed at the joke. This way no.

Roy could have handled Miko differently but the Giant decided to fuel her paranoia. I may not like it but it's a plot thing, I accept it.

The kind of insults were what made me dislike Roy, not the attack. Even if he had killed Miko I would "forgive" him. Roy was a big meanie head to Elan, a bit boring sometimes, but not a complete jerk. Now I don't like him, not because he tried to kill Miko, but because of his character.

[Snake-Aes]

True, but if we're talking a level 1 warrior going up against Miko, he'd just run in the other direction. =P

So it's a level 10 Fighter versus a level 14/2 Ex-Paladin/Monk.... Oh hell, he should still just run in the other direction. Now, if he's a level 13 Fighter, he's probably better off....
yeah, it's a 13 fighter and a 16 paladin without powers. so both are pretty much the same there, Miko's got higher bab and Roy's got half a dozen extra feats. He's got the advantage.


And guys, stop frickin shoving in names of politicians, that's not even allowed here. TAKE REAL WORLD OUT OF THIS PLACE, for heaven's sake!

[Serenity]

And yet, for all he manages to kick her butt, she's still able to relatively hold her own, kick him in the face, and run off. It would have been so much better if he offered her the opportunity to take the first action...

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Last I checked, diplomacy was cross-class for fighters. Roy couldn't have talked her down if he tried :P

[Entertainer13]

Yeah the police just blow someone away without giving them the chance to surrender. :smallconfused:

She desreved to be brought to justice which I believe Azure City has a justice system was not Hinjo calling for the guards to arrest Shojo. Roy or Belkar killing her is not justice it is vengence.
Actually, the police likely would. A weapon has been pulled out and used to kill. They have shown psychotic tendencies. 9/10, you fire at those knee caps.

I wasn't arguing to have her killed. I still maintain Roy was trying to beat her down and keep her arrested. You don't ask the mentally unstable to surrender, after they've shown a willingess to kill with little to no information.

[Demented]

If there's a problem with Roy's reasonings, it's that he had all these great justifications to obliterate Miko, and he had to choose the one with the least sense.

Don't you hate rolling a 1 on a wisdom check?

[Yogi]

few errors with that comparison...
1) miko never killed a single innocent person before Shojo, and was punished by the god's themselves after she did... as opposed to your example, who has already killed millions of innocents... a better comparison would a be a (hot headed) secret service agent who has served loyally for years untill this incidentFine, make it a completely unknown terrorist who had no prior criminal record. Or even make it a loyal Secret Service agent. Does it make any difference?
2) the secret service are actually authority figures, Roy is not and has no juristicion; he would be cnsidered a civilain in this matter...He's actually working for Shojo. But again, even if the point is conceded, what difference does it make?
3) assuming the nutcase wasn't someone who killed millions and this was the very first and only offence (refer to first error), and the nutcase had now dropped his weapon and looked like he was on his knees in a state of complete confusion... i think the secret service would arrest them and NOT just shoot them when they are downThat doesn't apply here. See Panel 6. A mentally unstable person who thinks he's being divinely inspired AND has a weapon is a VERY BAD thing.
4) the president, ain't exactly as likable or as good as Shojo...Well it doesn't have to be THIS president.

[spectheintro]

I really can't believe how many people are sympathizing with Miko. As far as Roy is concerned, Miko is evil. She has treated the OotS like absolute crap, been a condescending b*tch, tried to kill Belkar, never listens to anyone, and has a penchant for extremely rash actions. Now he has just witnessed her murder an innocent man, for which the gods themselves punished her. The people who think Roy acts rashly or like Miko are being *far* too sympathetic to a fallen paladin. Roy has absolutely no reason to hold back. (And we have no reason to believe he plans on killing her.) He's not being evil, he's just being smart, and maybe a little willful. But he has no way of knowing whether or not Miko is *really* going to atone for her actions, and he shouldn't care. She's a terrible person and a murderer, and on top of that, Roy hates her. He's perfectly in the clear. Anyone who thinks he's acting irresponsibly is projecting their viewpoint onto him, rather than considering what he's actually going through.

[Mr. Moon]

From what I've read, you guys are missing a major point: Roy is furrious. He's not going to think about it. Miko just killed Shojo. I wouldn't. From my point of veiw, he is perfectly justified by attacking Miko. Sure, it may not be the right thing to do, but he's to angry to stop and think. And frankly, why should he?

[theKOT]

And yet, for all he manages to kick her butt, she's still able to relatively hold her own, kick him in the face, and run off. It would have been so much better if he offered her the opportunity to take the first action...
No, she managed to slighty scrape him, stun him, then retreat.
He ALREADY ANNOUNCED HIS ATTACK! Why couldn't he have slipped an offer for surrender inbetween the verbal self-justification? None of it makes sense, even literarily.

From what I've read, you guys are missing a major point: Roy is furrious. He's not going to think about it. Miko just killed Shojo. I wouldn't. From my point of veiw, he is perfectly justified by attacking Miko. Sure, it may not be the right thing to do, but he's to angry to stop and think. And frankly, why should he?
Did he really have much emotional attatchment to Shojo? He used the guy as a means to his ends, and he didn't know him very well.

[Krellen]

Would it be out of line to talk about parallels between this situation and the original campaign for Neverwinter Nights?

[chibibar]

Well.. when people are pissed (I know when I'm pissed) people say things without thinking of consequences.... generally what people feel about things and well hurtful things. Don't any of you ever argue with a friend, co-worker, or love one? it can get ugly.

[Snake-Aes]

yes: parallel 1: it's D&D
parallel 2: read parallel 1.



KOT, as far as I know Miko didn't depend on gods' will for any of her offensive powers, only for healing, detecting, you know. She is still a threat

[theKOT]

KOT, as far as I know Miko didn't depend on gods' will for any of her offensive powers, only for healing, detecting, you know. She is still a threat
Didn't it add to her attacking power or something? Regardless, she obviously is far outmatched by Roy. Another round or two and she would have been out.

[Mr. Moon]

Okay, let me clear up my point. Say I was Roy's player. I tend to get attached to other characters, even major NPCs. Like Shojo. I'd send Roy right in there to attack. I know people who would do the exact same thing. In fact, if he was a barbarian, I might have even pushed him into a Rage.

Now, I know I'm going to get replys like "But you aren't Roy's player." "It's not you choice." or "Maybe Roy's player is diffrent you." In my own deffence, I think Roy's player and I have a lot in commen, especialy role-playing style.

[Charles Phipps]

Roy has an obligation to her because he's a Hero.

If he won't do it then Elan should.

[theKOT]

Okay, let me clear up my point. Say I was Roy's player. I tend to get attached to other characters, even major NPCs. Like Shojo. I'd send Roy right in there to attack. I know people who would do the exact same thing. In fact, if he was a barbarian, I might have even pushed him into a Rage.

Now, I know I'm going to get replys like "But you aren't Roy's player." "It's not you choice." or "Maybe Roy's player is diffrent you." In my own deffence, I think Roy's player and I have a lot in commen, especialy role-playing style.
But that doesn't make it right or SMART. And I expect Roy to behave intelligently, no matter what his role-playing style is.

[chibibar]

Didn't it add to her attacking power or something? Regardless, she obviously is far outmatched by Roy. Another round or two and she would have been out.

Roy knows that Miko could overpower him, but Roy figure that Miko doesn't have the gods backing her up, she would be easier to take down.

Miko just lost her paladin abilities. She still retains all her combat abilities. She just doesn't get Paladin's saving throws, immunities, and spells.

[Krellen]

Would it be out of line to talk about parallels between this situation and the original campaign for Neverwinter Nights?
Anyway. There's a Fallen Paladin in NWN - goes full Blackguard, even. And when you face her down, you have a chance to redeem her. But you don't do it from the start. You have to beat her up a bit first. And then beat her up some more. The real redemption can't happen until you've already beaten her down two or three times. Miko's in the same place. Right away isn't the time to redeem her; you have to wait until you've subdued her first.

[Demented]

Actually, the only Paladin abilities she'd have had of use against Roy would be Lay on Hands for in-battle healing, and summoning her mount to flank him (which would have made her defenseless for a full round). Well, that and her Paladin spells, four not counting any from a wisdom bonus, and characters don't seem to use their more limited spellcasting anyway.

Put that way, she's not any less of a threat now than she was before, when you consider Roy doesn't have his backup. Roy, however, is now a much greater threat.

Funny thing, he seems to deflect her blows much more often, yet weapons don't normally add to AC...

[EmeraldFire]

I really can't believe how many people are sympathizing with Miko. As far as Roy is concerned, Miko is evil. She has treated the OotS like absolute crap, been a condescending b*tch, tried to kill Belkar, never listens to anyone, and has a penchant for extremely rash actions. Now he has just witnessed her murder an innocent man, for which the gods themselves punished her. The people who think Roy acts rashly or like Miko are being *far* too sympathetic to a fallen paladin. Roy has absolutely no reason to hold back. (And we have no reason to believe he plans on killing her.) He's not being evil, he's just being smart, and maybe a little willful. But he has no way of knowing whether or not Miko is *really* going to atone for her actions, and he shouldn't care. She's a terrible person and a murderer, and on top of that, Roy hates her. He's perfectly in the clear. Anyone who thinks he's acting irresponsibly is projecting their viewpoint onto him, rather than considering what he's actually going through.

THANK YOU!!!

To add to what was just stated. Roy now knows that Xykon is right around the corner and will probably have to deal with him soon. Now, the leader of the city that is about to be attacked has just been killed by a reckless paladin, the gods judged her and removed her powers, and she has proven that she is still dangerous. I don't know about you, but as soon as she killed Shojo, their chances of having the guards in Azure city fend off the hobgoblin army just went way down. To top it all off, if you just saw the leader get killed, would you try to talk to the killer? No, Miko is even more dangerous now because of Xykon's presence (I'm not saying anything about becoming a Blackguard or a new minion), it is not the best thing in a siege to have a righteous driven psycho running around within the gates. Roy was justified, taunts and all, Miko brought all this upon herself, and may have doomed Azure City in the process.

[chibibar]

THANK YOU!!!

To add to what was just stated. Roy now knows that Xykon is right around the corner and will probably have to deal with him soon. Now, the leader of the city that is about to be attacked has just been killed by a reckless paladin, the gods judged her and removed her powers, and she has proven that she is still dangerous. I don't know about you, but as soon as she killed Shojo, their chances of having the guards in Azure city fend off the hobgoblin army just went way down. To top it all off, if you just saw the leader get killed, would you try to talk to the killer? No, Miko is even more dangerous now because of Xykon's presence (I'm not saying anything about becoming a Blackguard or a new minion), it is not the best thing in a siege to have a righteous driven psycho running around within the gates. Roy was justified, taunts and all, Miko brought all this upon herself, and may have doomed Azure City in the process.

I forgot about that :) you have a good point.

Right now Roy doesn't have TIME to talk with Miko. Xykon is on his way. without any early warning system more than likely Xykon is around the corner. Gotta take care of the psycho ex-paladin/monk before she does even more damage.

[ElfLad]

Elan wasn't obligated to help Nale, but he did.

Because he's the Good twin, not the Neutral twin. I'd say Miko is a great deal more deserving of a second chance than Nale.

[EmeraldFire]

Elan wasn't obligated to help Nale, but he did.

Because he's the Good twin, not the Neutral twin. I'd say Miko is a great deal more deserving of a second chance than Nale.

I'm inclined to disagree. Nale knows he is evil, and loves it. Miko is a much more dangerous type of villain, she believes that every action she takes is to further the cause of good and not even divine intervention can change that view. Nale holds no delusions about his actions, Miko is giving off the impression that she will kill anyone who she deems unworthy, and that is infinitly more dangerous.

[theKOT]

I'm inclined to disagree. Nale knows he is evil, and loves it. Miko is a much more dangerous type of villain, she believes that every action she takes is to further the cause of good and not even divine intervention can change that view. Nale holds no delusions about his actions, Miko is giving off the impression that she will kill anyone who she deems unworthy, and that is infinitly more dangerous.
Actually, We don't know if divine intervention would change her view. She had stopped to think, hadn't she?

[EmeraldFire]

Actually, We don't know if divine intervention would change her view. She had stopped to think, hadn't she?

We'll see soon... she still seems very hesitant to think that she may be at fault.

[theKOT]

We'll see soon... she still seems very hesitant to think that she may be at fault. I dunno. I think Roy's attacking her changed things dramatically. Not only was the moment lost, but he definitely provide any reason for her to reconsider her perception of him.

[teratorn]

I still hate the strip and don't find it funny. About Roy, there is a good argument in favor of his actions. That is self-defense and I accept that, even if he seems to act upon revenge. He doesn't seem threatened but it fits with his character (probably it was there all the time but I never noted his flaws were so deep). So for plot sake, assuming he is a jerk, everything is ok.

What I do not agree is with people arguing about the law enforcement thing. Hinjo is the only one with that kind of authority now, and Roy is with someone who should be in prison, so he is also breaking the law. Hinjo is facing a very serious situation now. He needs to arrest Miko and OOTS. And a huge army is coming. That is what I find tragic, they should try to reason with Miko to get info on the invading army.

[spectheintro]

But that doesn't make it right or SMART. And I expect Roy to behave intelligently, no matter what his role-playing style is.

Roy is being very intelligent. He is taking out a murderer before she can cause any more damage. He has no reason to believe she will repent for her actions--her moments of doubt are under her breath and to herself. If she were really remorseful she would cast down her blade in shame. Maybe Roy's actions push her further than she would have gone, but to say this "isn't smart" is to assume Roy knows what we do, which isn't the case. And even with what we know, who's to say Miko deserves to be redeemed? She has not done anything that makes her worthy of respect; have we forgotten that at the end of the OotS trial she essentially says she will kill them all? Roy's not being dumb, he's being prudent, and most of the people who take issue with it are those who have an emotional stake in Miko. If you look at it rationally, there's no reason Roy shouldn't have done exactly what he did.

The comment about Elan being the "good" twin is misleading. Elan is the "naive" twin. Roy is not naive. As a society we may value innocent goodness (Elan's) as more laudable than Roy's shrewd goodness, but Roy is no less good than Elan, he's just less innocent.

[SPoD]

Elan wasn't obligated to help Nale, but he did.

Because he's the Good twin, not the Neutral twin. I'd say Miko is a great deal more deserving of a second chance than Nale.

Elan is more Good than Roy. Is this even in doubt?

Also, in #393, Elan attacked Nale first.

EDIT: Actually, after reading the post above me, maybe Elan isn't more Good. But he isn't Roy, and it's foolish to expect Roy to act like Elan. Heck, the fact that Elan did it would be reason enough for Roy NOT to!

[chibibar]

I highly doubt that whatever Roy said will change Miko's mind. She already think Roy is an agent of evil. Miko is confuse sure, but still single minded. Look how easily she shifts blame. Miko could have been the "bigger" person and just give up saying, all this time I must be wrong... I surrender. but no...... she shift the blame toward Roy and attacks too..

so both kinda miss the chance really.

[Vulion]

Miko has lost it, clear and simple. I mean she thinks Roy tricked the bleedin' gods! Is this he statement of someone that has a chance to redeem themselves? No. She is a crazy person who does not believe she has truly fallen at all. Redemption? No, she belives that she is so crazy awesome that the gods made a mistake...huh...smells like crazy.

[theKOT]

Roy is being very intelligent. He is taking out a murderer before she can cause any more damage. He has no reason to believe she will repent for her actions--her moments of doubt are under her breath and to herself. If she were really remorseful she would cast down her blade in shame. Maybe Roy's actions push her further than she would have gone, but to say this "isn't smart" is to assume Roy knows what we do, which isn't the case. And even with what we know, who's to say Miko deserves to be redeemed? She has not done anything that makes her worthy of respect; have we forgotten that at the end of the OotS trial she essentially says she will kill them all? Roy's not being dumb, he's being prudent, and most of the people who take issue with it are those who have an emotional stake in Miko. If you look at it rationally, there's no reason Roy shouldn't have done exactly what he did.

The comment about Elan being the "good" twin is misleading. Elan is the "naive" twin. Roy is not naive. As a society we may value innocent goodness (Elan's) as more laudable than Roy's shrewd goodness, but Roy is no less good than Elan, he's just less innocent.
No, Miko was only saying that she hoped she would be the one to deal out the OOTS's karmic retribution. The Giant said so on these forums. Secondly, If Miko can be knocked out as easily as the lead-sheet episode seems to indicate, then it would have been safer to knock her out instead of give her a chance to escape. Lastly, a chance to surrender would have been very easy to give, why doesn't he?

[chibibar]

No, Miko was only saying that she hoped she would be the one to deal out the OOTS's karmic retribution. The Giant said so on these forums. Secondly, If Miko can be knocked out as easily as the lead-sheet episode seems to indicate, then it would have been safer to knock her out instead of give her a chance to escape. Lastly, a chance to surrender would have been very easy to give, why doesn't he?

Would you give a psychotic person who just kill your ally a chance to surrender? if Miko was normally SANE person, I might have....but she just spout a bunch of misinformation and pass judgement on an old man.

If she was SANE, I would try to ask for her surrender while kicking her butt, but to me, she is nuts and thus just taunt her instead and kick her butt.

[EmeraldFire]

No, Miko was only saying that she hoped she would be the one to deal out the OOTS's karmic retribution. The Giant said so on these forums. Secondly, If Miko can be knocked out as easily as the lead-sheet episode seems to indicate, then it would have been safer to knock her out instead of give her a chance to escape. Lastly, a chance to surrender would have been very easy to give, why doesn't he?

Well, to point out the obvious, does Miko come off as the type of person who would surrender? Especially to Roy and the OOTS, who she adamantly believes is working with Xykon.

[spectheintro]

No, Miko was only saying that she hoped she would be the one to deal out the OOTS's karmic retribution. The Giant said so on these forums. Secondly, If Miko can be knocked out as easily as the lead-sheet episode seems to indicate, then it would have been safer to knock her out instead of give her a chance to escape. Lastly, a chance to surrender would have been very easy to give, why doesn't he?

Because Roy has a bone to pick with her. He wants to hurt her, plain and simple, and I think he's justified. Like I said, we don't know if we wants to kill her, but I think she needs to get her ass handed to her too. Her pride is out of control.

And surrendering is out of the question--Roy has absolutely no reason to believe she'll even consider it, so he may as well not waste his breath. I can give you that Roy is being vindictive, but not unintelligent. And besides, I think his emotional state is warranted.

[TinSoldier]

Roy's just a big meanie-head.

He starts taunting her when she doesn't even have her sword in her hand. He attacks her instead of trying to talk her down.

I think he got low grades in more than just AoOs in Fighter College. His whole schtick is that he is supposed to be an intelligent fighter and I haven't seen it for quite awhile.

Roy doesn't live up to his alignment very well. I like the point about Elan and Nale up above. Also someone mentioned about readying an action--that makes a lot of sense.

It's really sad. When I started reading this comic I liked Roy a lot, but my respect for him has gone down as time goes by.

[Krellen]

Love does that to a man.

I think Roy's still got feelings for Miko. He's just not sure how to sort them out. It's hard to hate someone you don't really care about, after all.

[Demented]

Just wait.
Hinjo will chide Roy for making things worse and Roy, well... he'll have another "Oh gods, Elan!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html) moment.

[teratorn]

It's really sad. When I started reading this comic I liked Roy a lot, but my respect for him has gone down as time goes by.

Using his own words: lighten up man, at least you got laid.

Miko's gone (sort of), Roy is not my image of a leader. At least there is Durkon, he's the only sane character in the strip. I think there must be a reason for Roy having all these flaws. It's like the Giant decided that he was going to make Miko fall and make Roy as unpleasant as possible.


Love does that to a man.

I think Roy's still got feelings for Miko. He's just not sure how to sort them out. It's hard to hate someone you don't really care about, after all.

Very good point without getting into this "nasty Miko lovers hate Roy" spirit that is attached to any one who doesn't like the strip. You may be right you know.

[TinSoldier]

Miko's gone (sort of), Roy is not my image of a leader. At least there is Durkon, he's the only sane character in the strip. I think there must be a reason for Roy having all these flaws. It's like the Giant decided that he was going to make Miko fall and make Roy as unpleasant as possible.QFT the bolded part. Well, except for the dendrophobia bit.

I'm hoping that Miko and Durkon can have a heart-to-heart at some point in the future that can help her atone.

Then again, at this point, I wouldn't blame even Durkon for being pissed at Miko. Although I would still like to believe that he would feel more pity for her than anger or rage.

You know, I think that Durkon is the only truly Lawful Good character in the strip any more. Except maybe Hinjo.

[SPoD]

Miko's gone (sort of), Roy is not my image of a leader. At least there is Durkon, he's the only sane character in the strip. I think there must be a reason for Roy having all these flaws. It's like the Giant decided that he was going to make Miko fall and make Roy as unpleasant as possible.

I see more "GO ROY!" comments than complaints, so maybe just your idea of pleasant just doesn't sync with his or that of the majority of readers.

Also, your image of a leader isn't necessarily something Rich needs to live up to. My image of a leader is someone who takes decisive action when lives are on the line, and doesn't worry too much about being likeable when he does. If throwing some insults at her throws her off balance and brings this to an end sooner, then do it. He's not a paladin, he can fight dirty if it gets the Greater Good of ending her threat done.

Also, Durkon is scared of trees. There are NO sane characters in this strip and never have been.

[Charles Phipps]

The comment about Elan being the "good" twin is misleading. Elan is the "naive" twin. Roy is not naive. As a society we may value innocent goodness (Elan's) as more laudable than Roy's shrewd goodness, but Roy is no less good than Elan, he's just less innocent.

What?

That's crazy. Elan is the Good twin because he's merciful and kind. Not because he's ignorant.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Crazy thing, mercy. Mercy isn't justice. Mercy is the absense of justice, showing compassion for someone when you ought to be bringing them down. So it's not a debate on what's good, see. Elan's chaotic while Roy's lawful.

[FullPlateJacket]

Roy's just a big meanie-head.

He starts taunting her when she doesn't even have her sword in her hand. He attacks her instead of trying to talk her down.

I think he got low grades in more than just AoOs in Fighter College. His whole schtick is that he is supposed to be an intelligent fighter and I haven't seen it for quite awhile.

Roy doesn't live up to his alignment very well. I like the point about Elan and Nale up above. Also someone mentioned about readying an action--that makes a lot of sense.

It's really sad. When I started reading this comic I liked Roy a lot, but my respect for him has gone down as time goes by.

I would disagree. While Roy doesn't spout off his intelligently created plans, that does not denote that he doesn't have them. It's Nale who does that sort of thing, and as we've seen recently he isn't as "smart" as he sounds.

Plus, the smartest of people do dumb things in a stressed/panicked/angry state of mind, and Roy is obviously anrgy. He may not have liked Shojo, but he recognized that the guy was working for the greater good.

And since when would Miko surrender? She'd probably rather die! She cares about her honor!

While Roy might not be the best guy out there, he has shown to have put no small amount of effort into being truly good, rather than the way Miko or Shojo act. He also has no Paladin code to restrict his actions, and is justifiably pissed off at Miko, even more than usual.

As a side note, if Miko "saw the light" now and realized all of her mistakes, that would make much less of an interesting character. The Giant has made a "good" antagonist that slowly descends into insanity and finally snaps. For her story to continue, she can't just atone immediately. She has to see the error of her ways over time, or just descend further into madness. Sorry Miko-lovers, but she won't be a protagonist any time soon. The plot demands it.

[spectheintro]

What?

That's crazy. Elan is the Good twin because he's merciful and kind. Not because he's ignorant.

I didn't say Elan wasn't good, I just said calling him the "good" twin is misleading. Good does not imply naive, which is how it was being used when Elan and Roy were compared. Elan is of good alignment, but so is Roy--Roy just isn't naive, and maybe he's a little bitter too. But he's no less good for it; people are allowed to have flaws and still be perfectly within their alignment. Hell, even if Roy were a paladin, he'd still be well within the accepted bounds for his class. The only time he's really come short has been when he almost abandoned Elan, but he came to his senses and repented.

[Alair]

I'm going to agree with the "Roy doesn't live up to his alignment very well" line.

Certainly, he has no obligation. Part of being good however is doing more than what you're solely obligated to do. He doesn't even offer her the chance to surrender, he just leaps in to attack, insults flying. He's angry and he already has a grudge, he doesn't even think twice about it.

Look at the panel where Roy first strikes her, does it look like she even saw that coming? Plus there's Roy himself, Belkar, Hinjo, and the guards outside the room who can be called in, attacking her flat-footed is not the only way to bring her down if she resists.

As far as I'm concerned, Roy should just go ahead and chance his alignment to neutral; it fits him so much better.

[spectheintro]

As far as I'm concerned, Roy should just go ahead and chance his alignment to neutral; it fits him so much better.

It most certainly does not. Being angry does not mean you're automatically no longer a good person. This isn't some sweet, innocent girl who just finished praying that he's attacking--it is a MURDERER that the gods have judged. Seriously, he is not doing anything remotely close to evil. Vindictive? Sure. Rash? Maybe. Evil? Hell no. It doesn't even qualify as Neutral; at worst, what he's doing is "chaotic good." At worst.

I don't feel like going through the strips and showing all of the times Roy has proven himself to be Lawful Good in thought and deed, but I have never been given the impression that he's anything but, except (as I mentioned earlier) when he abandoned Elan. But he came to his senses.

[TinSoldier]

While Roy might not be the best guy out there, he has shown to have put no small amount of effort into being truly good, rather than the way Miko or Shojo act. He also has no Paladin code to restrict his actions, and is justifiably pissed off at Miko, even more than usual.Show me where Roy has been good?

Yeah, he doesn't have to be as good as Miko was. That is a given. What has he done that was good other than rescuing his sister (which, if it had been Miko, people would argue that she was obligated to do as part of being Lawful).

[TinSoldier]

I think it's funny how many say that Roy being angry doesn't make him any less good, when we argued the same thing about Miko in the fight against Belkar.

And that that argument could even apply to Miko's murder of Shojo.

Hmm.

[LVL 10 Rouge]

Many people seem upset about Roy's taunts during battle. The way I see it he has a reason to be mean in battle. He's fighting for his life and the lives of others a few angry comments to keep you opponent off balance are justified.

Also, would someone point out one comic in which Roy states that he is a nice guy? He cares about his allies, but never once does he say that he is a nice person.

Besides LG doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes sometimes.

[TinSoldier]

Many people seem upset about Roy's taunts during battle. The way I see it he has a reason to be mean in battle. He's fighting for his life and the lives of others a few angry comments to keep you opponent off balance are justified.Except that he's shown a pattern of it. Both to Miko and to Elan.


Also, would someone point out one comic in which Roy states that he is a nice guy? He cares about his allies, but never once does he say that he is a nice person.

Besides LG doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes sometimes.Absolutely. We've been saying both of these things about Miko for a very long time now.

[spectheintro]

I think it's funny how many say that Roy being angry doesn't make him any less good, when we argued the same thing about Miko in the fight against Belkar.

And that that argument could even apply to Miko's murder of Shojo.

Hmm.

That's totally misleading. I wasn't here for the argument re: Miko and Belkar, but I don't think she was acting evilly when she was fighting him. It's only when she tried to execute him that she was pushing it, and in all honesty, had she killed him, I do not think it would have been unjustified. (I love Belkar but he is very clearly Evil. He used a guard's blood to paint a picture; there is no ambiguity here.)

And it definitely couldn't apply to Miko and Shojo, because you'll note you used the word "murder." She murdered Shojo; she did not defeat him in a fair fight, and she did not have any hard evidence with which to condemn him. (Nor was it her place to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Hinjo's actions are much more in line with how a paladin should have reacted.) If Roy had killed Miko, then this would be a different discussion: I'd still love Roy, but I'd recognize that he'd done something of questionable moral character. (Although killing Shojo essentially equated her with Belkar, except she had a slightly more plausible motive than harvesting kidneys, and like I said earlier, I don't think Miko killing Belkar would be wrong at all.)

[Demented]

Nobody argued that Miko being angry in the fight made her evil. They argued that, the way things looked, if she had killed him, she would have been doing it out of anger and her own passion, not for good, law, or anything else that she normally stands for. Though, since she didn't manage to kill him, so we never found out what the Twelve Gods would have to say about it.

With Shojo, she murdered him for good (at least on the surface), yet it was still an evil act, or one not supported by the Twelve Gods' code of conduct.

In Roy's case, his being angry doesn't make him evil. But if he had managed to disarm her and stab her until she was helpless and bleeding on the ground, no longer fighting back, and then he does a CDG.... Come on, that would be evil.

Edit:
Curse you, simu-ninja! CUUURRRSSEE YOUUU!!!
/Phantom

[Serenity]

I think it's funny how many say that Roy being angry doesn't make him any less good, when we argued the same thing about Miko in the fight against Belkar.

And that that argument could even apply to Miko's murder of Shojo.

Hmm.

Except that it can't, because attacking a defenseless old man based on wild conspiracy theories is entirely different from taking the first opportunity to take down a deranged, dangerous fanatic who has just cut your employer in half right in front of your eyes. If you don't grasp this, you are deluded.

[Charles Phipps]

Except that it can't, because attacking a defenseless old man based on wild conspiracy theories is entirely different from taking the first opportunity to take down a deranged, dangerous fanatic who has just cut your employer in half right in front of your eyes. If you don't grasp this, you are deluded.

well that would be more accurate were not....you know...Belkar guilty of murdering a guard that Miko may or may not ACTUALLY KNOW. So yes, hypocrisy is alive and well in OOotS

[spectheintro]

Absolutely. We've been saying both of these things about Miko for a very long time now.

Roy does rude things; Miko is a rude person. Miko was an absolute travesty of a paladin (intentionally so) and she completely deserved to fall. I am thrilled that she did, because so many people think Miko exemplifies what a paladin should be, when in fact she is the antithesis of paladinhood. There's a clear line between Roy's mistakes (being mean from time to time, but generally repenting/apologizing for unwarranted behavior) and Miko's mistakes (which were devoid of any humility; she is the least compassionate and wise paladin I've ever seen.) Miko was more concerned about being right than being good. Her hubris was out of control, and she paid the consequences of it. As it was stated in another thread, a little bit of humility goes a long way.

[teratorn]

IMy image of a leader is someone who takes decisive action when lives are on the line, and doesn't worry too much about being likeable when he does. If throwing some insults at her throws her off balance and brings this to an end sooner, then do it.

Elan didn't leave Thog behind, and that would have made things easier. Elan saved his brother. I understand going around LG to even the odds but there are limits to it. Roy didn't need to act mean, he was never worried about beating her. I don't mind being in the minority, but I like my heros to be noble. Elan and Durkon are, Roy is less. He had some flaws but all this rage seems to much. What she did was evil but she was still LG and he knew it. There is a comment above with a possible explanation on why he was so nasty to her.

[Tawkis]

THANK YOU!!!

To add to what was just stated. Roy now knows that Xykon is right around the corner and will probably have to deal with him soon. Now, the leader of the city that is about to be attacked has just been killed by a reckless paladin, the gods judged her and removed her powers, and she has proven that she is still dangerous. I don't know about you, but as soon as she killed Shojo, their chances of having the guards in Azure city fend off the hobgoblin army just went way down. To top it all off, if you just saw the leader get killed, would you try to talk to the killer? No, Miko is even more dangerous now because of Xykon's presence (I'm not saying anything about becoming a Blackguard or a new minion), it is not the best thing in a siege to have a righteous driven psycho running around within the gates. Roy was justified, taunts and all, Miko brought all this upon herself, and may have doomed Azure City in the process.
100% correct.

Roy knows that Xykon is coming for the gate,
Miko is a threat to the stability of the city,
Miko killed one of Xykon's active opponents, who also commands the city.
The "greater good" in this case is served by removing Miko as fast as possible by whatever means neccessary. Now is not the time to care about her sheltered past, feelings and that fact that Roy is being unfair in combat.
IMO this is some of the best thinking Roy has done.

Is Roy being decidedly not nice.... Yes
Is he bringing personal baggage into it ... Yes
Are the above points irrelevant ... Yes:smallbiggrin:

Miko could've dropped her sword and surrendered at any time. She chose not too.
Last time I checked a Paladin had to WANT to be redeemed.
As a character I like Miko and I hope she can pull through this, she has the wisdom score to sort this out, but time isn't a luxury anyone can afford.

[TinSoldier]

That's totally misleading. I wasn't here for the argument re: Miko and Belkar, but I don't think she was acting evilly when she was fighting him. It's only when she tried to execute him that she was pushing it, and in all honesty, had she killed him, I do not think it would have been unjustified. (I love Belkar but he is very clearly Evil. He used a guard's blood to paint a picture; there is no ambiguity here.)Then it wasn't aimed at you. I still have my doubts as to whether she would have fallen for killing him at that point, but a lot of people were pretty sure that being angry was un-paladin-like and un-Lawful Good behavior.


And it definitely couldn't apply to Miko and Shojo, because you'll note you used the word "murder." She murdered Shojo; she did not defeat him in a fair fight, and she did not have any hard evidence with which to condemn him. (Nor was it her place to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Hinjo's actions are much more in line with how a paladin should have reacted.) If Roy had killed Miko, then this would be a different discussion: I'd still love Roy, but I'd recognize that he'd done something of questionable moral character. (Although killing Shojo essentially equated her with Belkar, except she had a slightly more plausible motive than harvesting kidneys, and like I said earlier, I don't think Miko killing Belkar would be wrong at all.)Note: I used the word "murder" on purpose. I have not now, nor have I ever, justified Miko's killing of Shojo.


With Shojo, she murdered him for good (at least on the surface), yet it was still an evil act, or one not supported by the Twelve Gods' code of conduct.I don't argue that at all.


In Roy's case, his being angry doesn't make him evil. But if he had managed to disarm her and stab her until she was helpless and bleeding on the ground, no longer fighting back, and then he does a CDG.... Come on, that would be evil.What's a CDG? I agree that being angry does not make Roy evil. Many people in the past, however, believe that Miko being angry made her evil.


Except that it can't, because attacking a defenseless old man based on wild conspiracy theories is entirely different from taking the first opportunity to take down a deranged, dangerous fanatic who has just cut your employer in half right in front of your eyes. If you don't grasp this, you are deluded.Oh? I didn't mean that the act wasn't evil. I meant that her anger did not make her evil.

Roy, who supposedly has an MBA and who is supposedly smart enough to have chosen wizardry rather than becoming a warrior, should have known better ways to handle the situation.

I think that Roy and Miko are far more similar than most people are willing to admit.

If Miko was an LG fighter, few would be arguing about her alignment. If Roy was a paladin, more would be arguing about his alignment and having him lose his abilities.

[Gandal]

She killed the only other person out to save the world. Seriously, people.

[PaladinBoy]

Crazy thing, mercy. Mercy isn't justice. Mercy is the absense of justice, showing compassion for someone when you ought to be bringing them down. So it's not a debate on what's good, see. Elan's chaotic while Roy's lawful.

I would like to present a quote on mercy from the DnD Book of Exalted Deeds:

It is, in effect, the good doctrine of respect for life taken to the highest extreme- respecting and honoring even the life of one's enemy.

I agree with the book. Also, mercy is more efficient:
Kill an enemy, you have one less enemy.
Show mercy to and redeem an enemy, and you have one less enemy and one more friend.

Not to say that this will work with Miko, just putting in my ideas about mercy.

A suggestion for Roy, next time: Approach her in a defensive, ready-to-fight stance, but give her the chance to consider her actions. If she still has hope, she'll recognize that she should surrender herself. If she chooses battle, well, that's the point of advancing in a defensive stance. That isn't necessarily the best choice for Roy's character, or for the plot, or for any number of other things. It WOULD be more in keeping with a Good alignment. Even that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only possible course of good, just that it would be MORE good than the actions that Roy actually took.

[EmeraldFire]

I think it's funny how many say that Roy being angry doesn't make him any less good, when we argued the same thing about Miko in the fight against Belkar.

And that that argument could even apply to Miko's murder of Shojo.

Hmm.

Sorry, but I can't agree that Roy being angry and taunting Miko can be on the same level as her committing cold blooded murder. It is comparable to Miko vs. Belkar, Belkar killed the guard of his cell, and that actually justifies her chasing him down and taking him down with force. Just don't compare Miko's cold blooded murder of Shojo to Roy's taunts and trying to stop a killer. Sorry Miko-lovers, but Miko committed murder, and Roy has yet to add that to his list of deeds.

[Ryshan Ynrith]

Alternately, show mercy to the wrong person, and you end up with a live enemy standing over your body. Terribly inefficient. :smallwink:

Mercy is indeed a good quality, but it is often a luxury-it takes time to reform someone, and if you've got 499 of your foe's buddies to deal with, trying to take the time to change his thinking is likely to be counterproductive.

And yeah, Roy's just the guardian and shelterer of a murderer. He'd rather rough up a (then-)paladin then deal with the piece of halfling scum he travels with.

[TinSoldier]

Miko could've dropped her sword and surrendered at any time. She chose not too.Except, that she did.

Panels 1-3, she does not have her sword (having dropped it from being gods-smitten).

She has it in panel 6, but is not threatening anyone. In panel 8, Roy hits her unawares and she drops her sword by panel 9. Instead of calling for her surrender or readying an attack if she picks up her sword again, Roy continues to taunt her.

[spectheintro]

A suggestion for Roy, next time: Approach her in a defensive, ready-to-fight stance, but give her the chance to consider her actions. If she still has hope, she'll recognize that she should surrender herself. If she chooses battle, well, that's the point of advancing in a defensive stance. That isn't necessarily the best choice for Roy's character, or for the plot, or for any number of other things. It WOULD be more in keeping with a Good alignment. Even that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the only possible course of good, just that it would be MORE good than the actions that Roy actually took.

I can see why you'd believe this would be a more noble course of action, but whether or not it's a more "good" or practical course is seriously debatable. I don't deny that Roy is acting rashly right now, but we're all asking him to act more calmly than any human being has a right to be. He's just witnessed a murder, and need I remind everyone, the gods themselves decided to chip in and say: "ok Miko, that was very, very stupid." Saying that Roy should calmly ask her to surrender is just expecting far too much of him, even though he's intelligent and good. Personally, if I saw the only other person working to stop the end of the world get brutally murdered, and then saw God come down and slap the murderer in the face, I really can't imagine I'd be very calm at all.

[Alair]

It most certainly does not. Being angry does not mean you're automatically no longer a good person. This isn't some sweet, innocent girl who just finished praying that he's attacking--it is a MURDERER that the gods have judged. Seriously, he is not doing anything remotely close to evil. Vindictive? Sure. Rash? Maybe. Evil? Hell no. It doesn't even qualify as Neutral; at worst, what he's doing is "chaotic good." At worst.

I don't feel like going through the strips and showing all of the times Roy has proven himself to be Lawful Good in thought and deed, but I have never been given the impression that he's anything but, except (as I mentioned earlier) when he abandoned Elan. But he came to his senses.

The gods judged that it was an evil act, unworthy of a paladin, not that it warranted her death and they certainly didn't appoint Roy to be her executioner.

I'm finding it hard not to have a bit of sympathy for someone who's already stretched past the breaking point, cracked, who finds herself in a moment of stunned self-examination trying to figure out where she went wrong and then, thwack, she realizes... it's this jerkface who just bashed her in the face with a flaming greatsword.

I am serious about my doubts about Roy's alignment though. Is vindictiveness ever compatible with goodness? You could always argue that it may simply be a fault in an otherwise good character but, Roy was perfectly ready to abandon Elan until he was guilt tripped into helping save him. By odd coincidence his willing to follow Miko to Azure City to prove the innocence of himself and his companions both began and ended at the same points he became attracted to her and lost interest, and likewise as Elan pointed out he was willing to overlook her harshness of the group for the sake of his hormones during the same period.

Bumps aside he's generally loyal to his companions, and it's not hard to look relatively good-hearted when you're sharing company with Belkar... then again doing so is probably going to imply a good deal of ethical flexibility by the same token. He's on a quest to save the world, sure, but even the most staunchly evil character should realize that it's in their own best interests to protect the world.

[PaladinBoy]

The point is that you wait until your opponent either can't fight you or won't fight you before you offer mercy.

Roy didn't wait to find out whether Miko would fight him. He forced the issue by attacking.

Is that the right decision for his character? Probably. Is it Good? Hmm... maybe. Could it be better? Yes.

[Knight13]

But she was forced to leap to conclusions by Roy's actions. Whether or not she would've reached the same end result is meaningless, because she wasn't given the chance.

She was not forced to leap to any conclusions by Roy, she managed that all on her own. Jumping to extremely farfetched conclusions is something she's very good at.

Putting that aside, whether or not she would have figured it out is completely irrelevant. She just murdered a defenseless old man by her own conscious decision. She doesn't need a psychiatrist, she needs to get her ass stuck on trial for murder.

[PaladinBoy]

...and then saw God come down and slap the murderer in the face, I really can't imagine I'd be very calm at all.

I think I would be. God's already punished the murderer, why do I need to?

[Ryshan Ynrith]

No, by her decision she put an end to a scheming, traitorous monstrosity of a human being, as his her authority and duty as a paladin, before he could command his hirelings to attack, summon more of them, and/or use his established corruption of the justice system to escape punishment.

Of course, this was not the case, but saying she killed a helpless old man is stretching a bit. He's a leader of a nation, with a band of armed mercenaries IN THE SAME ROOM.

[spectheintro]

Except, that she did.

Panels 1-3, she does not have her sword (having dropped it from being gods-smitten).

She has it in panel 6, but is not threatening anyone. In panel 8, Roy hits her unawares and she drops her sword by panel 9. Instead of calling for her surrender or readying an attack if she picks up her sword again, Roy continues to taunt her.

Ok, I need to pull on past material for this. Let's examine strip 287. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) In this strip, we see Miko use her weapon aggressively, with the same crazy look on her face, and then have a moment of stunned introspection. What is the result? She decides to kill them all. Now, in strip 407-408, we see Miko use her weapon to execute a man, then stare a moment in stunned introspection. Why should Roy believe for a second this is going to go any differently? He's just pre-empting the inevitable, and she doesn't do anything to show him that he made the wrong decision. Why aren't we being more hard on Miko, who should have surrendered of her own volition immediately following the crime?

[EmeraldFire]

It just has to be stated plainly. I know that there is a Miko fanclub and there are a lot of people who like her as a character. But you are trying to justify her killing of Shojo and going further over the edge by trying to blame Roy... sounds a bit familiar to me :smallamused:.

Maybe Roy could have handled it better, maybe he couldn't. The point is that Miko is a real threat, not just to the OOTS, but to herself and basically everyone else. Do you think she'll feel any sympathy towards Hinjo or any of the Sapphire guards should they back Roy? No, she is going to believe that they have all been corrupted. Perhaps the message will get through to her at some point, but as it stands right now, she just had her powers as a paladin ripped from her by the very gods she worships, and yet she still finds some reason to place the blame on Roy and not herself.

So please, realize that the blame for Miko going over the edge is not because Roy was a meanie poopie-head :smalltongue:, it was because her deluded sense of righteousness and justice has completely overtaken her and driven her to become a truly dangerous threat to anyone she may deem unworthy.

[Ryshan Ynrith]

Any evidence she wasn't going to? She was questioning her act, and then Roy decided to make up her mind for her with a giant glowy sword.

[spectheintro]

I think I would be. God's already punished the murderer, why do I need to?

Because the murderer's got a weapon and has a penchant for the crazy? Come on, man, I think you're giving yourself too much credit. Given Roy's history with this girl and the situation at hand, you're really pushing the limits of credibility if he remains calm the entire time.

[TinSoldier]

Ok, I need to pull on past material for this. Let's examine strip 287. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) In this strip, we see Miko use her weapon aggressively, with the same crazy look on her face, and then have a moment of stunned introspection. What is the result? She decides to kill them all.And announces her intent to do so?


Now, in strip 407-408, we see Miko use her weapon to execute a man, then stare a moment in stunned introspection. Why should Roy believe for a second this is going to go any differently? He's just pre-empting the inevitable, and she doesn't do anything to show him that he made the wrong decision. Why aren't we being more hard on Miko, who should have surrendered of her own volition immediately following the crime?Because she hasn't taken enough time to think about all of the ramifications yet?

[Tawkis]

Except, that she did.

Panels 1-3, she does not have her sword (having dropped it from being gods-smitten).

She has it in panel 6, but is not threatening anyone. In panel 8, Roy hits her unawares and she drops her sword by panel 9. Instead of calling for her surrender or readying an attack if she picks up her sword again, Roy continues to taunt her.
She did not have her sword in 1-3, she had it when Roy attacked her. She has shown herself to be unstable, She dropped it and picked it up. Then either one attacked the other, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say Roy attacked and Miko parryed.

That changes nothing, at no point did Miko say anything close to the following.

"I surrender."

The onus is 100% on Miko to surrender herself, what she has done is the height of dishonorable behaviour.

I also stand by the fact that while Roy's attitude may not be proper and he may be emotionally involved, he is doing the best thing for Azure City.
It is quite possible the right thing, for the wrong reasons. Which I will agree makes him a bit of a jerk.

It also may be the right thing, for the right reasons. Depending on Roy's reaction in the following strips.

Nice catch on 287 spec.

@Tinsolider: How much time is wise to give to an unhinged murder when there's an army on the way?
I fail to see how Roy's being a meanie is central to this. Miko's actions are unjustifiable, Roy's actions (although quite possibly misguided emotionally) are not. How is it Roy's job to make Miko see the light?

[Yogi]

Sure, Roy could have tried to redeem Miko, if there was one IOTA of evidence that it had a possibility of working.

Miko's actions have debunked that throughly.

[TinSoldier]

It just has to be stated plainly. I know that there is a Miko fanclub and there are a lot of people who like her as a character. But you are trying to justify her killing of Shojo and going further over the edge by trying to blame Roy... sounds a bit familiar to me :smallamused:.Who's trying to justify her killing of Shojo? I compared her anger in doing so to Roy's anger, but I certainly don't justify her actions.


Maybe Roy could have handled it better, maybe he couldn't. The point is that Miko is a real threat, not just to the OOTS, but to herself and basically everyone else. Do you think she'll feel any sympathy towards Hinjo or any of the Sapphire guards should they back Roy? No, she is going to believe that they have all been corrupted. Perhaps the message will get through to her at some point, but as it stands right now, she just had her powers as a paladin ripped from her by the very gods she worships, and yet she still finds some reason to place the blame on Roy and not herself.But we don't know. Because when she is asking the questions Roy comes up with a smartass remark which made her stop reflecting on what happened and gave her something to focus her confusion on and change it into anger.


So please, realize that the blame for Miko going over the edge is not because Roy was a meanie poopie-head :smalltongue:, it was because her deluded sense of righteousness and justice has completely overtaken her and driven her to become a truly dangerous threat to anyone she may deem unworthy.Miko went over the edge when she killed Shojo. She could have been talked back from that edge, but "our hero" decide instead to be a meanie poopie-head and score some points.

[Serenity]

I think I would be. God's already punished the murderer, why do I need to?

Because she has a habit of not being able to admit that she's wrong? Because she's still armed and there's certainly no guarantee that she won't decide to use her weapons on you? Because it's a stupid frickin' idea to let a murderer go?

[Charles Phipps]

Sure, Roy could have tried to redeem Miko, if there was one IOTA of evidence that it had a possibility of working.

Miko's actions have debunked that throughly.

Roy has no desire for that anyway.

Redeemed or not, he'd kill her.

Do you think he cares about her moral state?

[Alair]

Ok, I need to pull on past material for this. Let's examine strip 287. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) In this strip, we see Miko use her weapon aggressively, with the same crazy look on her face, and then have a moment of stunned introspection. What is the result? She decides to kill them all.

... because she's just been shot in the back in the pursuit of a murderer who left her a message in the blood of his victim for her to come get him? Is that really comparable?


Now, in strip 407-408, we see Miko use her weapon to execute a man, then stare a moment in stunned introspection. Why should Roy believe for a second this is going to go any differently? He's just pre-empting the inevitable, and she doesn't do anything to show him that he made the wrong decision. Why aren't we being more hard on Miko, who should have surrendered of her own volition immediately following the crime?

When should she have surrendered? We go from her reeling back and staring at her sword in shock, wondering where she could have gone wrong, Roy approaches her from behind and announces he doesn't care, he's going to kick her ass, he attacks and seems to hit her in the face with everything he's got just as she's turning around to face him.

[Ryshan Ynrith]

If it's such an obviously stupid idea to let a murderer go, why hasn't Roy left Belkar to rot in prison/the gallows by now?

[TinSoldier]

That changes nothing, at no point did Miko say anything close to the following.

"I surrender." Heh. And neither did Roy way back at their first confrontation.

[Yogi]

Roy has no desire for that anyway.

Redeemed or not, he'd kill her.

Do you think he cares about her moral state?One leads to the other. Roy would not have disliked Miko this much had Miko been a more reasonable person. Heck, had Miko been more willing to admit error, we would not be having this discussion.

BTW, Miko swore to end the OotS's life the last time Roy saw her. Again, NO reason to beleive she wasn't going to follow through.

[Demented]

What's a CDG? I agree that being angry does not make Roy evil. Many people in the past, however, believe that Miko being angry made her evil.

CDG = Coup-de-Grace.

Not all of the people now that are defending Roy are those same people that were attacking Miko. A lot of people like to make blanket statements about the opposite side, and it can be satisfying to say, but ultimately it hinders more than it helps.

Plus, it's tedious to read. I like to read arguments that are personal, heated, and with violent, threatening undertones. :smallyuk:

[Solo]

All I have to say is, when you come across a mad dog, you put it down.

[TinSoldier]

CDG = Coup-de-Grace.Thanks. I think I figured it out after I posted but it's nice to have confirmation.


Not all of the people now that are defending Roy are those same people that were attacking Miko. A lot of people like to make blanket statements about the opposite side, and it can be satisfying to say, but ultimately it hinders more than it helps.

Plus, it's tedious to read. I like to read arguments that are personal, heated, and with violent, threatening undertones. :smallyuk:Sorry. I'll try to do better :biggrin: !

[Yogi]

Heh. And neither did Roy way back at their first confrontation.Yet another lie. He was clearly trying to surrender right before the Smite Evil.

[Glome]

If it's such an obviously stupid idea to let a murderer go, why hasn't Roy left Belkar to rot in prison/the gallows by now?

Well I suppose if Miko agreed to stand still for an hour to have a mark of justice put on her, they might let her go, but somehow I doubt that is going to happen. Also, Belkar can be reasoned with and kept from doing further harm. Miko actions on the other hand appear highly irrational. It just makes the most sense to stop Miko by physical means since reasoning with her seems unlikely at best.

[TinSoldier]

Yet another lie. He was clearly trying to surrender right before the Smite Evil.Thanks for calling my honesty into question. I really appreciate that.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

:roy: And you, buddy, we're not surrendering without a little...
(Note Roy specifically not surrendering here.)

Usually you only get one chance to surrender. I agree that Miko was showing her typically hasty personality (so much like Roy) when she refused to accept his second surrender.

[teratorn]

Plus, it's tedious to read. I like to read arguments that are personal, heated, and with violent, threatening undertones. :smallyuk:

What bothers me are arguments about arresting a murderer and such. There's one near Roy, Belkar who did something horrible in that city. Also the thing about Shojo. Roy didn't like Shojo. It's self-defense but mostly is something very personal between the two. Roy is very passionate about it, the problem is that Miko's mind is not into it.

I just wish the Giant had not trashed him as a hero for me (I see most people still like him, that's ok with me, it's an opinion). I can't stand him now.

[EvilElitest]

Ok i am just going to wrap things up right here, so before any one from the Miko fanclub repeats themselves, first read this.
RANT:smallmad:

Roy is in no way obligate to redeem Miko. Let review why

1) After speaking decussing plans with your boss and savior, Miko, an unhinged zealot who your have been defeated by twice storms in, acusses you of working with your families enemy, basiclly blames you for all crimes on earth, claims that aliements don't matter, her will is good, and then cuts your boss, who is helping you save the word, in half
2) She is then spited by her own gods and loses her powers, proveing she is commiting evil, after killing an unarmed 80 year old man. She then started doubting herself, AFTER killing the old man.
3) Now Roy knows she is unhinged, that she is prone to blaming others for her faults, and as just proveing, never listen to reason when pissed off. He has given her seavreal prep talks about her twisted morals before, so why one earth would you see the need try again. SHE IS A ZEALOT. Zealot, as in has 100% black and white perspective Sure maybe yo might get her to listen to reason, but you might as well get Belkar to be peacful (without magic). Roy is also really pissed, because not only did she kill his unarmed boss, she acussed him of working for his greatest enemy. Why even bother? She is also stronger than Roy normally, might as well finished the pychopath now.

Now some people say that this will turn out for the worst. Yes, of course it will, but bear in mind, we had the gift of hind sight. We can say "Oh she escaped, your screwed roy."

Roy is a miltary man. Logically, kill a tougher, now proven evil foe when you have the chance. In hte last two fights, he did not want to kill because she was good. However, now she is evil, her gods have stated so. So why let her live?

Others has said "He should have taken her to court". Yes, roy take her the court in a city you don't belong to with an army aproaching. Roy does not belong to this nation, and so he has no need to listen to their laws but convenece. And who cares if he kills her, she is a fallen palidin. Now some say that policemen can't kill her, but she did not surrender and roy has is not a figure of anthory to arresther. He is acting in self defence to kill a murder. And bear in mind. THIS IS BASED IN THE MIDDLE AGES. Who cares, you killed an fallen paliden. You would be a hero.

Few more points, their is no Sudam Bi Ladin (forgive spelling) because Sadam is no a Saudi name. And for the terriost mercy example

If a terriost killed the presdent, under the duties of the American Law, you try to arrest him IF HE IS WILLING TO SURRENDER. If not, you are acting in self defence. So you can't say roy was pulling a racist cop. Thank you.

[Yogi]

Thanks for calling my honesty into question. I really appreciate that.And here's why!!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

:roy: And you, buddy, we're not surrendering without a little...
(Note Roy specifically not surrendering here.)
That changes nothing, at no point did Miko say anything close to the following.

"I surrender."
Heh. And neither did Roy way back at their first confrontation.Tawkis said that AT NO POINT did Miko try to surrender, not in the ENTIRE fight.

You reply that Roy DID NOT try to surrender.

Now, you claim that one case of not surrendering means not TRYING to surrender the entire fight.

Usually you only get one chance to surrender. I agree that Miko was showing her typically hasty personality (so much like Roy) when she refused to accept his second surrender.And HERE you try to change the argument by placing the totally arbitrary "only once" clause out of thin air. SAYS WHO?


Any more lies, half-truths, convenient omissions, distortions, and leaps of logic you would care to contribute?

[Demented]

Sorry. I'll try to do better :biggrin: !

:thog: group hug!
:durkon: Hold person.
:thog:

[EvilElitest]

Please, leave the Miko fan club alone, as long as they will agrue logiclly. We have the ablity of Hindsit, which hte character don't. I just ask people here to not flame the mike fan club, and debate with them politlly (relativlly speaking) as long as they return the favor. Oh and make sure to have logical arguements. By teh By, i would like to point out the to Roy, reedemming Miko is most likly not worth the trouble.

[Alair]

Ok i am just going to wrap things up right here, so before any one from the Miko fanclub repeats themselves, first read this.
RANT:smallmad:

Roy is in no way obligate to redeem Miko. Let review why

1) After speaking decussing plans with your boss and savior, Miko, an unhinged zealot who your have been defeated by twice storms in, acusses you of working with your families enemy, basiclly blames you for all crimes on earth, claims that aliements don't matter, her will is good, and then cuts your boss, who is helping you save the word, in half
2) She is then spited by her own gods and loses her powers, proveing she is commiting evil, after killing an unarmed 80 year old man. She then started doubting herself, AFTER killing the old man.

She's also been riding hard, fought Red Cloak, been punched out of a tower window, ridden the rest of the way back to Azure City, and arrived in time to hear the closest person she has to a father figure has been deceiving everyone with feigned madness, admitting to rigging a trial, and is consorting with a known and quite thoroughly unrepentant murderer.

I'm not saying what she did was not an evil act but there are perhaps extenuating factors you're not taking into account here. There's only so far that anyone can be stretched before they're going to snap.


3) Now Roy knows she is unhinged, that she is prone to blaming others for her faults, and as just proveing, never listen to reason when pissed off. He has given her seavreal prep talks about her twisted morals before, so why one earth would you see the need try again. SHE IS A ZEALOT. Zealot, as in has 100% black and white perspective Sure maybe yo might get her to listen to reason, but you might as well get Belkar to be peacful (without magic). Roy is also really pissed, because not only did she kill his unarmed boss, she acussed him of working for his greatest enemy. Why even bother? She is also stronger than Roy normally, might as well finished the pychopath now.

Roy's speech was on skirting the meaning of "lawful good", which is applying quite well to himself here. Roy also isn't alone, Hinjo's close at hand, Belkar's nearby, the guards are still presumably stationed outside and as this is the royal audience chambers I'd be shocked if a whole lot more couldn't be summoned in a hurry...


Roy is a miltary man. Logically, kill a tougher, now proven evil foe when you have the chance. In hte last two fights, he did not want to kill because she was good. However, now she is evil, her gods have stated so. So why let her live?

Well, for starters, if the gods wanted her dead, why didn't they kill her themselves? Leaving aside the "one evil act makes for an evil alignment" issue, Paladins are also given a "detect evil" ability yet I don't think anyone would defend a paladin who killed anyone they saw who registered as evil.


Others has said "He should have taken her to court". Yes, roy take her the court in a city you don't belong to with an army aproaching. Roy does not belong to this nation, and so he has no need to listen to their laws but convenece. And who cares if he kills her, she is a fallen palidin. Now some say that policemen can't kill her, but she did not surrender and roy has is not a figure of anthory to arresther. He is acting in self defence to kill a murder. And bear in mind. THIS IS BASED IN THE MIDDLE AGES. Who cares, you killed an fallen paliden. You would be a hero.

The figure who presumably has that authority now is standing right there in the room with them, Hinjo. Why not let him make the call?

And that's quite a novel use of the concept of "self-defense", by the way.

[EvilElitest]

OK Alair, i'm sorry you just missed the point here,

1) Roy does not know what she has went though to lead up to this moment. He sees her come in and kill both their bosses. She is unhinged to start with, why be trusting to phyco?
2. Yes LAWFUL GOOD. He is lawfully killing a murder, who is punished by her gods to prove her guild. He is being good in killing one who has murder an innocent. The gods prove him right. If Hinjo is not going to say anything, why stop when all the guilt points to her. It is the middle ages.
3) Ok they stripped her of her powers, it is VERY EFFEDENT. Why did not kill her? I don't know, becasue i am not a god, but i do know they don't agree with miko. So why should roy question what the gods who he does not worship do, if htey just prove what he is doing is right?
4) Self Defence, if you will look in most law book from ANY Time Period, will apply to killing a murder. If I walk into your place of work (not implacations) you knowing me a rather pyhcotic person, kill your boss, than what ever authoraty of the land gives 100% proof of my guilt, why not kill me. Reedemming someone who is insane is not worth hte risk. As for Hinjo, roy is answer to a higher power, common sense. A novel use of self defence would be killing a crimal who has not commited a crime as yet. And roy would not think to redeem Miko. He does not care.

[TinSoldier]

And here's why!!
Tawkis said that AT NO POINT did Miko try to surrender, not in the ENTIRE fight.And neither did Roy. He specifically said "We're not surrendering."

At no point did Roy say, "I surrender". You are correct in that Miko did not say that either.

Just like Miko did, you and Roy jumped to conclusions.

[Yogi]

And neither did Roy. He specifically said "We're not surrendering."" . . . without a little . . . " He was not refusing, but merely asking "why"

Convenient omission: Check.

At no point did Roy say, "I surrender". You are correct in that Miko did not say that either.
That changes nothing, at no point did Miko say anything close to the following.

"I surrender."
Heh. And neither did Roy way back at their first confrontation.At no point did Tawkis state that Miko needed to say the specific words "I surrender" but merely exhibit a desire to give in, one which Roy certainly did.

Distortion: Check.

Just like Miko did, you and Roy jumped to conclusions. Leap of Logic: Check.

Well, it looks like you hit everything on my list except for "half-truth." I'm about to go to bed, so you'll have to hurry if you want to squeeze in a complete set by then.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Call me crazy, but isn't it possible that Roy is actually in the process of trying to help Miko here by snapping her out of her fantasy world and into reality? I can't imagine he's actually trying to kill her, given his past fatality record. As it stands, Miko is a threat to everyone around her, probably even herself if she upholds the samurai ideal of seppuku. Heck, even without it, don't you think she might be extremely suicidal after the realization sinks in that she just murdered her lord in cold blood and was subsequently shunned by her own gods? Roy might just be saving her life by giving her someone to fight in the mean time.

[13_CBS]

Call me crazy, but isn't it possible that Roy is actually in the process of trying to help Miko here by snapping her out of her fantasy world and into reality? I can't imagine he's actually trying to kill her, given his past fatality record. As it stands, Miko is a threat to everyone around her, probably even herself if she upholds the samurai ideal of seppuku. Heck, even without it, don't you think she might be extremely suicidal after the realization sinks in that she just murdered her lord in cold blood and was subsequently shunned by her own gods? Roy might just be saving her life by giving her someone to fight in the mean time.

An interesting notion, but I would disagree. I would agree with you in that Roy, at least, percieves Miko as a threat. I don't think, however, that Miko is suicidal (she said she was going off to think about what just happened) or that Roy is trying to stop her for her sake (he WAS quite angry during the fight, after all).

And yes, I don't think Roy was trying to kill her either.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

The taunts seem oddly heavy-handed, though. Even in front of Xykon Roy was more respectful. My point is, maybe Roy has a very specific reason for needing Miko to stand and fight him. Roy's planned things like this out in advance before.

[Cult_of_the_Raven]

by the twelve gods, you people overanalyze everything.:smallannoyed:

[Yogi]

Roy was never for the subtle approach. Even if he were trying to literally slap some sense into her, he wouldn't be actively insulting her, so much as pointing out the holes in her logic.

[teratorn]

And neither did Roy. He specifically said "We're not surrendering."

At no point did Roy say, "I surrender". You are correct in that Miko did not say that either.

Just like Miko did, you and Roy jumped to conclusions.

I bow to you, I would have used the small triangle on the side.

Miko was beaten by Xykon, by MITD, by the Gods, by Roy, and now by the people in the forums. Miko just wants to get away. Roy wants to fight her, but not because Shojo (he didn't care about him). He wants to fight her for him, not for justice not for goodness. No problem in that, it's not a question of being a fan of this or that character. They have no free will. The reactions of people in the forums on the other hand give me clues on what the Giant is trying to achieve. That's why I like to discuss and I like to keep things polite.

I still think that Roy is depicted as a jerk but I thank the person who started the thread for explaining me that I follow an outdated vision of an hero. I don't feel such a big clash as before. I understand better the reactions and different positions. I liked this thread. Group hug everyone.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Comes with the territory. I'm just really digging the present storyline :D

[13_CBS]

The taunts seem oddly heavy-handed, though. Even in front of Xykon Roy was more respectful. My point is, maybe Roy has a very specific reason for needing Miko to stand and fight him. Roy's planned things like this out in advance before.

For the Xykon point, I think he was like that because, up until then, Xykon was just a big, bad lich thing that Roy, as an honorable Greenhilt, was expected to destroy.

Miko, on the other hand, has pissed him off and frustrated him to no end.

[Sev'serus Rath]

This is getting ridiculous. LG alignment and paladin conduct are not synonomous!

Look, Roy is neither a cleric nor a paladin. He IS a fighter, albeit an LG one. If you wanted him to look at a killer NPC who has shown no reason to deserve mercy with calmness and understanding, look to a REAL paladin.

Yes, Roy may have screwed up her one moment of clarity. And I know there are many fans of her who desperately want her back and vindicated. And thats a crying shame that its not going to happen right now.

But it would be bad roleplaying to have Roy do anything else. An allied NPC which in my opinion Roy had a grudging respect for was killed before his eyes. More importantly, its an old defenceless man. What would you have an adventurer who answers to no authority save need, used to fighting evil independently of orders and yes, really dislikes this self rightous delusional murderer? Ask for her surrender? Will Roy ask Nale to surrender the next time he meets him until he has Nale well and truly beat?

Again, only paladins & clerics care for the souls of their foes. Roy wanted Miko in jail. Asking her would reasonably would make mockery of whatever outrage any good person seeing cold blooded murder would feel.

Roy was an ass for making sexist comments. But I feel better cheering for a jerk than a delusional megelomaniac justifies her actions by blaming on her
grudge. Yes, Roy messed up her possible atonement, but maybe, just maybe, we should expect more restraint from the one chosen by the gods than from Mr. My Class Likes Swords.

And last but not least, Miko fell from paladinhood. She lost a privilege gifted to her by the gods. She was not per se punished by them. The gods saw to their duty, execution of justice is, at least in this case, the duty of mortals. Which I think is just beginning.

[Alair]

OK Alair, i'm sorry you just missed the point here,

1) Roy does not know what she has went though to lead up to this moment. He sees her come in and kill both their bosses. She is unhinged to start with, why be trusting to phyco?

... because she's simply standing there in shock? Because she's not actually threatening you? Because you have the advantage in numbers? Because it only takes a few seconds to ask her to surrender?


2. Yes LAWFUL GOOD. He is lawfully killing a murder, who is punished by her gods to prove her guild. He is being good in killing one who has murder an innocent. The gods prove him right. If Hinjo is not going to say anything, why stop when all the guilt points to her. It is the middle ages.

Er, no. You see, he's not "lawfully killing a murderer" because Roy is not the law incarnate. Sure, he doesn't have to consider himself bound to uphold the laws of Azure City but I doubt he's the law made flesh in his home country either. And again, the gods revoked her paladin status, she's no longer a holy knight, it takes a lot to become one and all it takes to stop is one indisputably evil action. This does not however mean that they've judged her as being worthy of death. She is simply no longer judged to be worthy of being a paladin.

She might still be lawfully executed for her crime, sure, but that would entail a trial. If she were to resist arrest and the only recourse of the guards was to use lethal force to subdue her, there would no fault to them either.

What Roy did was nothing like that. Call it revenge, call it vindictiveness, just don't call it either lawful or good.


3) Ok they stripped her of her powers, it is VERY EFFEDENT. Why did not kill her? I don't know, becasue i am not a god, but i do know they don't agree with miko. So why should roy question what the gods who he does not worship do, if htey just prove what he is doing is right?

Why should Miko question that the incriminating confession she arrived just in time to overhear is not the work of the guiding hand of the gods?


4) Self Defence, if you will look in most law book from ANY Time Period, will apply to killing a murder. If I walk into your place of work (not implacations) you knowing me a rather pyhcotic person, kill your boss, than what ever authoraty of the land gives 100% proof of my guilt, why not kill me. Reedemming someone who is insane is not worth hte risk. As for Hinjo, roy is answer to a higher power, common sense. A novel use of self defence would be killing a crimal who has not commited a crime as yet. And roy would not think to redeem Miko. He does not care.

Why do you seem fixated on the idea of redemption? Whether she's redeemable or not is between herself and the gods. As someone who is ostentatiously lawful good however, Roy's commitment should be to offer her the chance to surrender before he leaps to the attack. His commitment should be to the law before vindictiveness.

I'm not adverse to the idea of people being fallible, maybe Roy's leaping to the attack to try and make up to himself for not being able to move earlier. It's even a much less grave error than Miko's was. It still however falls far short of the ideals he claims to uphold, and the taunts simply make his motivations seem all the more foul.

A novel use of self defence would be killing a crimal who has not commited a crime as yet.

I really hope you're just joking here.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Easily put, Roy is angry. Although he has no real attachment to Shojo, Shojo was the only other person actively trying to stop the world being destroyed. On top of that, someone who is supposed to have a similar moral code to his has essentially taken that code and wiped her ass with it. These two reasons are more than enough to want to fight. And when you are angry, logic, reasoning and wisdom go out the window. I am a prime example. When I am calm, I nearly cry about stepping on ants. When I am angry, on two separate occasions, I have got exceedingly violent. One, I tried to beat someone with a sock full of rocks. This someone is one of my best friends.

The basic point is that Roy is angry, and has every right to be. He is angry to the extent that he is doing one of most primal instincts, which is fighting. I ask anyone here that they have not done something stupid when they were angry. If the answer is yes, then they can become self-righteous about Roy. I applaud the Giant on this strip, because it is showing Roy as human being, acting as a human would act. And a lot of you hate the fact that in this situation you would do the same.

[Alair]

Easily put, Roy is angry. Although he has no real attachment to Shojo, Shojo was the only other person actively trying to stop the world being destroyed. On top of that, someone who is supposed to have a similar moral code to his has essentially taken that code and wiped her ass with it. These two reasons are more than enough to want to fight. And when you are angry, logic, reasoning and wisdom go out the window. I am a prime example. When I am calm, I nearly cry about stepping on ants. When I am angry, on two separate occasions, I have got exceedingly violent. One, I tried to beat someone with a sock full of rocks. This someone is one of my best friends.

The basic point is that Roy is angry, and has every right to be. He is angry to the extent that he is doing one of most primal instincts, which is fighting. I ask anyone here that they have not done something stupid when they were angry. If the answer is yes, then they can become self-righteous about Roy. I applaud the Giant on this strip, because it is showing Roy as human being, acting as a human would act. And a lot of you hate the fact that in this situation you would do the same.

I agree with you. I love the current storyline. I'm hoping Miko falls farther, I think she'd make for a great villain, a strong contrast to Nale and Xyklon.

Being human is all about being fallible.

[Stephen_E]

... because she's simply standing there in shock? Because she's not actually threatening you? Because you have the advantage in numbers? Because it only takes a few seconds to ask her to surrender?


Look at the strip again. Her 1st action on been dropped back to the ground by the Gods, after they strip her of her Paladinhood, is to stagger off some 20' to recover and pickup her sword. Given she has a track record of chopping when upset, I think you're streching to suggest she wasn't threatening. She was holding her sword, had just stated "you're evil" and killed your confederate/employer. Pretty damned threatening. Sure she might've gone "I'm sorry" after she thought about it, but frankly she'd long since used up her quota of "benifit of the doubt" from Roy. If she'd wanted to be treated less violently she shouldn't have gone straight for her sword.

Stephen

[Pax_Chi]

You know, I have to say that I find the diversity on these boards refershing. No matter what point of view one has, you can almost bet money that several people here are going disagree with you, with varying degrees of intensity. Love it or hate it, you cannot deny that there's lots of free thinking individuals coming to their own conclusions here.

Now, for my part, I look at Roy's actions as thus:

1) Roy already wasn't in the best of moods because he had just spent a strip or two talking with Shojo, who had been giving him the usual treatment that had his patience worn thin.
2) Miko came into the room. That in and of itself is to make his temperment worse because he HATES Miko. She has done little but make his life miserable since meeting her, and worse, she offends him as a fellow Lawful Good individual because of how she acts, potentially as a reminder of what he could have been had his own head been lodged more firmly up his nether regions.
3) Miko comes in and accuses him of being evil, using only the most haphazard of reasoning to justify her claims. This not only offends Roy's morals, but his intellect as well, because seeing her so called "logic" in action has to be akin to some of Elan's early tomfoolery, but without the charm.
4) Miko MURDERED a defenseless old man in front of his eyes. A defenseless old man who was in the process of trying to save the planet and everyone on it from the forces of evil. Someone who Roy, even if he didn't like or trust, probably respected to a degree.

So what are those four things? Four VERY good reasons for Roy to beat the ever living tar out of Miko.

Could he have tried to talk to Miko, to make her realize the error of her ways and maybe, just maybe, that show of compassion and understanding would help Miko overcome her own faults and lead her to be a better person? It's certainly possible, though by no means probable. It's at least as likely that she would have viewed his ovatures of compassion as some trick (because remember, he's evil) and attacked him first.

Roy's reaction was a very human one. Someone he hates does something he finds morally reprehensible while he's already in a pissed off mood. In such an instance, taking an oppertunity to lay a very deserving beatdown on said opponent is probably just too tempting when you're that angry. And when you're angry, with good reason to be, letting loose a torrent of insults you likely had stored up in case of just such an emergency is also understandable.

I'm not going to say someone with the discipline of a LG Monk or Paladin, the patience of a saint and the ranks of diplomacy to match couldn't have maintained the self control needed to not attack Miko. But Roy is neither Monk nor Paladin, and as we've seen, his patience can be worn through with acts of evi and acts of stupidity, and he just saw a very stupidly evil act performed. He's not a perfect person, and he'd be the first to admit it. So in light of all this, his reaction to beat the crap out of Miko is well within his character, and more than that, it's understandable. We can't judge Roy as if he were Superman or a Paladin, because he's neither of those, and what's important is that he never claimed to be. He's just a guy trying to do his best in a given situation, and when said situation seems to call for the beat down of one recently knocked off her high horse Paladin, well, he's going to do his best.

[Pax_Chi]

And then I read Shadow of the Sun's post and sees that he pretty much said everything I did, he just said it with a lot more class and a lot less rambling. :)

[Alair]

Look at the strip again. Her 1st action on been dropped back to the ground by the Gods, after they strip her of her Paladinhood, is to stagger off some 20' to recover and pickup her sword. Given she has a track record of chopping when upset, I think you're streching to suggest she wasn't threatening.

She's staring at the sword in shock, the people she's supposedly threatening with it are standing behind her.


She was holding her sword, had just stated "you're evil" and killed your confederate/employer. Pretty damned threatening.

Yes, except her world's been turned upside down inbetween the two. That's kind of important, the gods themselves have stepped in and said "You're wrong". She's trying to understand where she made a mistake when Roy bashes her in the head and everything crystalizes into into blaming him.


Sure she might've gone "I'm sorry" after she thought about it, but frankly she'd long since used up her quota of "benifit of the doubt" from Roy. If she'd wanted to be treated less violently she shouldn't have gone straight for her sword.

Stephen

I really don't think she "wants" anything, she's in shock here. Hells, given the right suggestion from Hinjo she might very well have gone ahead with seppuku.

Pax_Chi:

It's a human thing to do, I agree. Not thought out in advance, and under the circumstances, any old wound or hurt is bound to come to the surface. However...

A hero is not vindictive. A hero will always try to find an alternative to fighting. And if we get right down to it, Batman got it right, the difference between a vigilante and a hero does come down to the willingness to give yourself the right to decide if someone's worthy of living or dying.

These aren't exactly rational, you could very well argue that if you try to uphold these kind of ideals you're putting yourself at a disadvantage versus anyone who doesn't. (Heck, Miko herself parodies it early on with her "Rouse the sleeping ogre camp so that we might engage in honorable combat" routine)

In that moment, attacking the shell-shocked and deeply confused ex-paladin, Roy could hardly have fallen farther from my idea of what a hero is supposed to be.

[Cartographer]

Others has said "He should have taken her to court". Yes, roy take her the court in a city you don't belong to with an army aproaching. Roy does not belong to this nation, and so he has no need to listen to their laws but convenece. And who cares if he kills her, she is a fallen palidin. Now some say that policemen can't kill her, but she did not surrender and roy has is not a figure of anthory to arresther. He is acting in self defence to kill a murder. And bear in mind. THIS IS BASED IN THE MIDDLE AGES. Who cares, you killed an fallen paliden. You would be a hero.

Wow. These arguments have completely won me over. Just to review them;

If you discover that somebody has broken their paladin's oath, and due to them outranking you there is no authority to arrest them or time to hold a trial, you are entirely within your rights to attack them without warning and will be considered a hero for doing so.

Now, when has that happened before? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots406.html)

The only difference is your frankly bizarre assertion that Roy doesn't need to follow Azure City law because he wasn't born there, which I think can be dismissed out of hand.

[Alfryd]

Why on earth does anyone think he should have tried to talk to her??I entirely agree that Roy's assault was a perfectly legitimate option, but in theory, one might also argue that it was *conceivable* Miko could be talked into turning herself in. Merely unlikely. If all else failed, Roy could threaten to whoop her ass if she didn't surrender immediately. But, he was pissed. It's largely understandable.

And, as has been pointed out, no-one's saying he was going to kill her once she was in negatives.

[Serenity]

Heroes always find an alternative to fighting? Batman doesn't. Superman doesn't. Green Lantern doesn't. Wonder Woman doesn't. Hawkgirl doesn't. Green Arrow doesn't. The Teen Titans don't. Spiderman doesn't. The X-Men don't. And certainly the vast majority of D&D characters don't.

What the heck are you talking about? Heroes deliver beatdowns all the time.

Shojo has crap AC and Constitution, and no demonstratable combat skills. Subduing him can be done easily and immediately. And the charges are pretty far-fetched , so summary execution carries high risk of killing an innocent.

Miko is clearly deranged, has crushed the entire order in combat before, and just SLICED SOMEONE IN HALF right in front of you. She doesn't get a talking to for that, she gets her fallen ass kicked into submission.

[Dectilon]

by the twelve gods, you people overanalyze everything.:smallannoyed:

What else is these forums for? We analyze, talk, bicker and waste time on something that has no other use than pure entertainment. If this wasn't for fun, we wouldn't be here! : )

I have to say I reacted pretty strongly to the sexism (it's a reflex I have; can't do much about that), and as for lethal self-defense being legal I'd say it depends on which country you're from (althougt it doesn't apply in the comic world of course, but here in Sweden what Roy did would be atempted murder). But APART from that I think things went down in a logical, but suboptimal way :)

Miko has mental problems. If she was born with them or if something happened to make her as she is, we will perhaps never know. Still, I think it has to be taken into account. She can't reason normally. It's not really that she won't, but she can't. That being said, she shouldn't be allowed to carry anything more dangerous than a muffin until she can get some treatment : )

I think the words Roy said hurt her though, and not just in the way that they would hurt anyone. I think she acctually deep down, even if she doesn't understand it herself, likes Roy. And that makes his words hurt even more (once again, she doesn't understand why, and that makes her think she hates him).

That's my (over)analysis anyways.

[spectheintro]

She's staring at the sword in shock, the people she's supposedly threatening with it are standing behind her.

Dude, who cares? Seriously, who cares if she's in shock? Why in the world should Roy believe for a second she's going to do anything but re-enter the crazy? You're arguing that she has a chance for redemption, and that if mean old Roy had just given her some more time to think about it, she'd have come around. Why should he? He can't see the shocked expression on her face, and even if he could, as I showed in strip 287, the shocked look does not necessarily imply repentance is going to follow. She's proven herself to be wholly unworthy of a GOOD alignment in Roy's eyes, but up until the murder, it was debatable. Now we know she's definitely not good--not because she made ONE mistake, but because she has a HISTORY of being crazy and now she's finally gone off the deep end.


Yes, except her world's been turned upside down inbetween the two. That's kind of important, the gods themselves have stepped in and said "You're wrong". She's trying to understand where she made a mistake when Roy bashes her in the head and everything crystalizes into into blaming him.

You are willing to forgive her for being stupid, stubborn, and for NOT surrendering even though she has no doubt what she did was wrong, and yet you are completely unable to allow Roy his (just) anger. This is her fault, 100% hers. If Roy's reaction isn't helping her be a better person, well, too bad--she doesn't deserve it as far as he can tell. He doesn't need to try to reason with her; she has proven herself to be completely unable to listen to reason, and now is the worst time to try. (I mean, really, she's a murderer.) We have no evidence that Roy is going to kill her, and judging by HIS track record, there's a very distinct possibility that he's just going to beat her into submission.



A hero is not vindictive. A hero will always try to find an alternative to fighting. And if we get right down to it, Batman got it right, the difference between a vigilante and a hero does come down to the willingness to give yourself the right to decide if someone's worthy of living or dying.

We can argue about what a hero should and shouldn't be, but that's a much more opinionated topic than this, so I'm going to avoid it. I will just state that I could not disagree more, and I think this statement, more than anything else, shows why we're having this disagreement in the first place.



In that moment, attacking the shell-shocked and deeply confused ex-paladin, Roy could hardly have fallen farther from my idea of what a hero is supposed to be.

"A shell-shocked and deeply confused ex-paladin." Who is a murderer. Who has been judged by the gods and found unworthy of paladin status. Who has a history of psychotic behavior and all-around zealotry. Who has provided Roy with no small amount of frustration. Who has publicly sworn to destroy the OotS. Who has never, not once, given the indication that she can be reasoned with. Yet you would have Roy waste time, risk his own life and the lives of others (because she is completely capable of going on a murderous rampage, and if you doubt this, just look at the previous strips), just to see if she understood what just happened. All I can say is that I pray you have no relatives in the military or in law enforcement; you are really going to hate them if you do.

[Dectilon]

Above poster: You're a US american, right? : )

[xyzchyx]

To make another comparison, lets say a terrorist Saddam bin Ladin, thinking he was doing the will of God, managed to kill the President of the United States. Should the Secret Service try to talk to him afterwards (no matter how sorry he looks) or do they commence with the ass kicking?Actually, if they're doing things right, they would tell him to drop his weapon and surrender first. They would only commence the ass-kicking if he didn't comply.

[TinSoldier]

" . . . without a little . . . " He was not refusing, but merely asking "why"

Convenient omission: Check.In Miko's mind, he was refusing. It's explained better in the FRC. Will it make you feel better if I say that she should have waited? Probably not.


At no point did Tawkis state that Miko needed to say the specific words "I surrender" but merely exhibit a desire to give in, one which Roy certainly did.

Distortion: Check.Right. Because Roy attacks her before she has a chance to exhibit any desires whatsoever. Whether to give in or to continue fighting.

Edit:
I was going to continue arguing, but no. I'll not.

Yogi, if you think I was distorting, lying, telling half-truths, jumping to conclusions, whatever then I apologize. I did not intend to do so and I did not intend to argue in bad faith.

I concur with many of the OP's points -- Roy was not obligated to talk to Miko. I still think it would have been the better course of action.

[Learnedguy]

Yes. Roy is a LG, and, opposite to Miko, an truly good LG, so he might have wanted, or might want to redeem with her in the future, but no one could claim that he have to do it. He might wanna though, becouse he is a nice guy.

[Jorkens]

If Roy's reaction isn't helping her be a better person, well, too bad--she doesn't deserve it as far as he can tell.
How can you 'not deserve' to be set on the path of good rather than evil? Or more to the point, how can it be a good action to definitely set someone on the path of evil rather than trying to set them on the path of good?

He doesn't need to try to reason with her; she has proven herself to be completely unable to listen to reason, and now is the worst time to try.
Part of the reason that she's been hard to reason with in the past because she's firmly believed that she's right and that what she's doing is the will of the gods. Since she's just been told quite clearly that she's wrong and that what she's doing isn't the will of the gods, this would probably be a comparatively good time to try to reason with her.

I'm not sure that talking about 'obligation' really makes sense, though. Roy isn't obliged to do anything. But IMO the Good thing to do would be to attempt to help her redeem herself.

[Whisper]

I truly do not understand the people who say Roy should have talked to Miko. Look at the scenario, you are talking with your ally trying to save the world from evil or possibly being destroyed. A person who you don't like comes in accuses you of working with the evil you are trying to destroy and kills your unarmed ally. At which point do you decide I'm going to roll a diplomacy check? You don't. You roll initiative and go to combat.

[LordVader]

Exactly. She tries to blame Roy for making her murder Shojo. SHE TRIES TO BLAME ROY! She cannot be reasoned with, she is living in her own private fantasy world.

[Jorkens]

I truly do not understand the people who say Roy should have talked to Miko. Look at the scenario, you are talking with your ally trying to save the world from evil or possibly being destroyed. A person who you don't like comes in accuses you of working with the evil you are trying to destroy and kills your unarmed ally. At which point do you decide I'm going to roll a diplomacy check? You don't. You roll initiative and go to combat.

One more time...

POSSIBLY AT THE POINT WHEN THEY'RE STUNNED TO FIND THAT THE GODS IN WHOSE NAME THEY THINK THEY'VE BEEN DOING GOOD LET THEM KNOW THAT THEY AREN'T.

[Tawkis]

I concur with many of the OP's points -- Roy was not obligated to talk to Miko. I still think it would have been the better course of action.
For the record, I would be inclined to agree with you under normal circumstances. I believe that the incvading army is what really let's Roy "off the hook".
I also agree that Roy wouldn't have surrendered in their first confrontation. If only due to that fact that Miko told them they were wrong. Roy went along with the whole thing because he was being led by his pants.

[Glome]

I don't know what people were expecting to happen if Roy actually did give Miko the time to think about her crime. She already believed the OOTS to be evil and her newly acquired fallen status didn't actually reflect on any actions taken against the OOTS, only against Shojo.

She would have eventually done three things after thinking the situation through. Either she would have attacked someone else in the room, committed Seppukku, or ran away. Nothing in her mind would have trusted the corrupt evil government enough to allow her to surrender even if she was told to, which would have been the only acceptable alternative to getting beat down for assasinating Shojo.

If Roy had enough ranks in diplomacy or some other social skill he might be able to talk through her delusions and into surrender, but a fighter like Roy is going to put more trust in his sword anyway, and also use any advantage to get a leg up on a opponent who has shown she can beat him on two other occassions.

[spectheintro]

How can you 'not deserve' to be set on the path of good rather than evil?

She doesn't deserve his effort because he has absolutely, positively, NO reason to believe it will make the slightest bit of difference.


Or more to the point, how can it be a good action to definitely set someone on the path of evil rather than trying to set them on the path of good?

He didn't set her on it, that's my point entirely! She has always been this way. The only difference is this time, she got punished for it, because she finally stepped so far out of line that the gods decided they'd had enough. It is not, under any definition of "good" I ascribe to, within the scope of reason for Roy to now try and reason with her and say: "See? I was right all along, you're a crazy evil bitch." He doesn't have the time and past experience has shown him that her resolve is irrational.


Part of the reason that she's been hard to reason with in the past because she's firmly believed that she's right and that what she's doing is the will of the gods. Since she's just been told quite clearly that she's wrong and that what she's doing isn't the will of the gods, this would probably be a comparatively good time to try to reason with her.

Or so you believe, because you have the benefit of omniscience in this situation. Roy has never seen her be self-reflective, and he's firmly convinced her prior lack of reasoning was a personality trait. How she justified it was irrelevant, and as evidenced by her attempt to blame it the entire thing on Roy, she'll just make up a new reason to justify herself now that the gods are no longer a sufficient explanation. She is a zealot. Just because you think she has the chance to be more than that, because you've had the luxury of being a third party, does not at all change what she has been before and what she is now. Just because Roy is acting prudently does not make him any less heroic or good.


I'm not sure that talking about 'obligation' really makes sense, though. Roy isn't obliged to do anything. But IMO the Good thing to do would be to attempt to help her redeem herself.

He has no reason to believe she's going to try to redeem herself, and it would be very, very stupid of him to suggest redemption now, considering her views on him and her sworn oath to kill the OotS.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Come to think of it, I'd actually do one of two other things myself, in that scenario, during a D&D game. Either I grapple immediately to get that sword out of her hands and pin her, or I ready a stance to take action should she not listen to an immediate demand for her to disarm and come along quietly using an intimidation check. I wouldn't have attacked immediately like that.

But I'm still holding out that maybe Roy had a valid reason beyond what we've just witnessed for attacking immediately.

[xyzchyx]

Nothing in her mind would have trusted the corrupt evil government enough to allow her to surrender even if she was told to, which would have been the only acceptable alternative to getting beat down for assasinating Shojo.I don't think that anyone can know that for sure, other than the author.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but Roy never even gave her a chance... And to assert that she had plenty of chances before is irrelevant because anyone who's studied even very basic logic knows that past events do not actually influence later events without them being cause and effect, respectively. There is no logic in saying that because person X did Y before, they will do Y every single time. The cause of consistent behavior can reasonably be concluded to be because of consistent thought. So if the cause of Y is actually that X thinks Z, then as long as X thinks Z, it is reasonable to conclude that they will do Y each time. But if Z changes, the outcome may change as well... to assume it wouldn't change is to assume that people cannot learn, grow, and mature.

So.... for the first time in this comic, Miko verbally acknowledges that she does not know everything that she needs to in order to know what actions to take. This is pivotal, because it could be evident to everyone that she has just had a major attitude adjustment. Indeed, it was this very self-centered belief that she was always right that appeared to be the root of virtually every one of her abhorrent actions prior to this, and with this first sign of humility from her it was just _possible_ that she could have been brought to surrender herself peacefully and take the time to think about what she had done and what she really needed to be doing. Roy should have immediately told Miko to drop her weapon in panel 6, rather than taunt her with the premise nobody could possibly care about her (when it's highly probable that the gods do, but that's another issue entirely).


Roy didn't have any obligation to redeem Miko, but I think he _did_ have an obligation to not push her further over the edge than she already was.

[Glome]

Come to think of it, I'd actually do one of two other things myself, in that scenario, during a D&D game. Either I grapple immediately to get that sword out of her hands and pin her, or I ready a stance to take action should she not listen to an immediate demand for her to disarm and come along quietly using an intimidation check. I wouldn't have attacked immediately like that.

But I'm still holding out that maybe Roy had a valid reason beyond what we've just witnessed for attacking immediately.

You would try to pin a monk? An expert of unarmed combat, with a grapple attempt which would give her a free attack of opportunity? I'm sorry, that's strategically a horrible idea, you'd be much better off straight attacking her.

While the second idea makes more sense, it also has problems. For one, we don't know whether Roy actually has any ranks put into intimidate. While it is a class skill, fighters get so few skills he may have put his ranks in something else. Secondly, readying an action isn't going to help you if she decides to attack somone else like Hinjo or Belkar. His major aim in life is to protect other people, which he believes he can best do by attacking Miko directly. There is even some evidence he may have done subdual damage for his first two attacks and said that he wants to beat her down, so I don't think he's even trying to kill her, only stop her.

I'm also not sure what further reason he needs to stop her. Assasinating the head of state and murdering a helpless old man are about as good a reason to attack someone as your going to get. Were you expecting Roy to wait until Miko released the Snarl before he had a valid excuse to attack her?

[Vulion]

I've noticed that some are trying to say that Miko should be reasoned with because she's not clearly aware of her actions and that Roy should be condemened because he didn't think things clearly and just acted. My point is that isn't it the same argument but different judgments on different characters?

[TinSoldier]

I've noticed that some are trying to say that Miko should be reasoned with because she's not clearly aware of her actions and that Roy should be condemened because he didn't think things clearly and just acted. My point is that isn't it the same argument but different judgments on different characters?Yes. Mainly because of how Roy and Miko's alignments and actions have been compared and contrasted throughout the comic. At least from when Miko first revealed herself.

[xyzchyx]

While the second idea [to demand that she disarm, and Roy to make an intimidate check] makes more sense, it also has problems. For one, we don't know whether Roy actually has any ranks put into intimidate.Intimidate can be performed untrained, and it's not unreasonable to assume that given the fact that Miko was in the very midst of questioning herself and her own understanding, a circumstantial bonus would not have been inappropriate. I'd say that there would have been a 50-50 chance of Miko responding peacefully. A lot better than the chances of her doing so while being taunted about how utterly unlovable she was.

[Jorkens]

Yes. Mainly because of how Roy and Miko's alignments and actions have been compared and contrasted throughout the comic. At least from when Miko first revealed herself.
I was about to say no because they're not the same argument - saying that Miko should be reasoned with doesn't mean you approve of her or of her behaviour.

[Blayze]

I've noticed that some are trying to say that Miko should be reasoned with because she's not clearly aware of her actions and that Roy should be condemened because he didn't think things clearly and just acted. My point is that isn't it the same argument but different judgments on different characters?

Welcome to the world of double standards. Isn't it a fascinating place? It defies all logic.

Let's break this down, shall we? Miko is mentally unstable and slaughters the defenceless. In layman's terms, that makes her a psychopathic murderer. It's obviously not quite that simple, but there ya go.

What does Roy see? A psychopathic murderer. We get to see her little moment of talking under her breath, but, even assuming Roy heard her, what reason, what possible MOTIVE or INCENTIVE would he have to want to disarm her, talk her down or whatever?

This is like those stories you hear about domestic violence where the woman's attacked her husband, and he's tried to fight her off and been imprisoned for being the one attacking her! And then everybody's climbed on their high horses and spoken down to her, saying that he should have used 'reasonable force' to 'disarm her and calm her down without harming her'.

Yeah, right. He tries to disarm her and calm her down, and she's trying her best to gut him with a carving knife. In the same vein, Roy has no reason to attempt either a non-violent or non-fatal solution with Miko. As far as he cares, as far as *I* care, she's a psychopathic murderer.

At least the monsters between the Order and Xykon were/are combatants. At least they posed a freakin' THREAT. Miko could have breathed on Shojo and he probably would have fallen over and died.

Miko weakened the fabric of reality. The Order (Well, Elan) weakened the fabric of reality. It's a moot point, either way. It all comes down to the fact that Miko is not above slaughtering defenceless old men. It does appear that the 'Stick Up Ass' class feature might be on its way out, but even if it is, it's going to be a painful time on the bog for Miko.

[Lord Zentei]

I've noticed that some are trying to say that Miko should be reasoned with because she's not clearly aware of her actions and that Roy should be condemened because he didn't think things clearly and just acted. My point is that isn't it the same argument but different judgments on different characters?

I rather get the impression that this is the minority opinion, even among Miko fans.

[TinSoldier]

I was about to say no because they're not the same argument - saying that Miko should be reasoned with doesn't mean you approve of her or of her behaviour.There's that, too.

[spectheintro]

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but Roy never even gave her a chance... And to assert that she had plenty of chances before is irrelevant because anyone who's studied even very basic logic knows that past events do not actually influence later events without them being cause and effect, respectively. There is no logic in saying that because person X did Y before, they will do Y every single time. The cause of consistent behavior can reasonably be concluded to be because of consistent thought. So if the cause of Y is actually that X thinks Z, then as long as X thinks Z, it is reasonable to conclude that they will do Y each time. But if Z changes, the outcome may change as well... to assume it wouldn't change is to assume that people cannot learn, grow, and mature.

Um, technically you are correct, but practically, your conclusions have absolutely no relevance to the argument at hand. Roy is not a mind reader. He studied Miko's actions and ascertain a behavioral pattern from them. Past events always influence future events when they are initiated by the same person, because that person effectively serves as the causal link. It has been proven that committing an act multiple times makes the act successively easier each time. (A lot of research has involved the human brain's reaction to killing.) So it is perfectly reasonable for Roy to look at the body of Miko's past actions, assign her a behavioral pattern, and then assume with moderate certainty that in this particular situation, she'll react similarly as before. To not make these assumptions would be illogical, not vice versa.

[/quote]So.... for the first time in this comic, Miko verbally acknowledges that she does not know everything that she needs to in order to know what actions to take. This is pivotal, because it could be evident to everyone that she has just had a major attitude adjustment.[/quote]

No, it could be evident to us, and considering how much debate has sparked in the forums about it, I don't think it's evident at all. Half of the people arguing don't think she really had an attitude adjustment, and I happen to be in that half. Judging from how she reacted in strip 287, when Durkon calmly tried to reason with her, I think she had a moment of shock that was to be immediately followed by a.) escape or b.) murderous rage. YOU want to assume that Miko would have done all of the right things after she murdered Shojo: that she would realize the gravity of her crimes, accept her punishment humbly, and work for atonement. But we have absolutely NO logical basis on which to stake that belief, and in fact any modicum of behavioral analysis will point any rational person to the OPPOSITE conclusion, that Miko's going to continue as she always has and continue being psychotic.


Roy didn't have any obligation to redeem Miko, but I think he _did_ have an obligation to not push her further over the edge than she already was.

None of this is Roy's fault. The burden is on Miko and Miko alone; it's not anyone else's job to help her be a better person when she is so obviously unwilling to consider the consequences of her actions. You think she displayed humility, and I disagree; she displayed hesitation, and is still hesitating. *Maybe* she will change her ways, but that remains to be seen, and Roy certainly has no reason to believe she will.

Honestly, I wonder how much outrage there would be if Miko was a guy. It seems very suspect to me that there's this outpouring of sympathy to a character with virtually no redeemable qualities. I have a feeling that Miko's status as a sexually attractive character (within the context of the comic, of course) is prompting a huge amount of reverse discrimination. And that people are calling Roy's remarks sexist, man, my head is just spinning.

[TinSoldier]

Honestly, I wonder how much outrage there would be if Miko was a guy. It seems very suspect to me that there's this outpouring of sympathy to a character with virtually no redeemable qualities. I have a feeling that Miko's status as a sexually attractive character (within the context of the comic, of course) is prompting a huge amount of reverse discrimination. And that people are calling Roy's remarks sexist, man, my head is just spinning.I've already explained (somewhere) why I think his remarks were sexist.

But I believe I would like Miko just as much if she were a guy. I mean, she's a fricken' stick figure!

And Roy would not have made comments of a sexual nature if she were a guy, because he has not in the past to the other male villains.

[the_tick_rules]

now we're getting into sexism, how'd we get there?

[spectheintro]

I've already explained (somewhere) why I think his remarks were sexist.

But I believe I would like Miko just as much if she were a guy. I mean, she's a fricken' stick figure!

And Roy would not have made comments of a sexual nature if she were a guy, because he has not in the past to the other male villains.

I wasn't referring to you, actually--I've read it in a few other posts and threads in this forum.

And I know she's a stick figure, but she's still a female, and I am getting the distinct impression that her femininity is influencing a lot of opinions.

[Lord Zentei]

I wasn't referring to you, actually--I've read it in a few other posts and threads in this forum.

And I know she's a stick figure, but she's still a female, and I am getting the distinct impression that her femininity is influencing a lot of opinions.

Well, I don't think that's really true. I seem to recall a poll thread that gave four options, with liking/disliking Miko and "I'm male"/"I'm female". The differences due to gender were rather minimal, if any.

[TinSoldier]

I wasn't referring to you, actually--I've read it in a few other posts and threads in this forum.No problem. There are so many threads that I forget where I post my answer to that particular question.


And I know she's a stick figure, but she's still a female, and I am getting the distinct impression that her femininity is influencing a lot of opinions.Up until this point some people have attributed hatred of Miko to the fact that she's a female. I lend more credence to that, but not much.

Anyway, I like to think that I would like her even if she were a male. I can't say with certainty, though. It's just that I usually don't think about her being female. I do like strong female characters, though.

[xyzchyx]

Um, technically you are correct, but practically, your conclusions have absolutely no relevance to the argument at hand. Roy is not a mind reader.He doesn't have to be. She was actually _vocalizing_ her self-doubt. Those weren't thought bubbles over her head, she was speaking, and Roy could hear her (as evidenced by the fact that he answered a question that wasn't even directed at him). She was in the midst of potentially having an epiphany... and to interrupt such an occurrence with insults (ie, basically telling her nobody cares what she thinks) is the *worst* thing that anyone could possibly do.

It would have cost Roy _NOTHING_ to have demanded that she drop her weapon while holding his ground, prepared to fight if need be. It might be understandable or possibly even natural for Roy to have reacted the way that he did, but that doesn't make it right. Indeed, the intrinsic value of ethics and morality itself is that to retain it often requires that we resist our natural tendencies and self-centered desires... their worth comes from the fact that it requires effort to achieve, and it is this effort itself that is what makes a person good.

[Bozidar]

I'm not a regular here, but i'm a regular read. This is hysterical stuff. Disclaimer : i'm going to be harsh here, but fair. I don't know the person i'm quoting from adam or eve, but i know a slanted point of view when i read one.
for the record - i think miko is a fun and interesting character that has served as a cool plot device on several occassons, and i never was looking forward to this -- for example, like i was looking forward to Haley being able to talk again (that got old).

I think she had paused. She was not a threat at the time, and what happened to the cry of subdual damage Anti-Miko types are always raising? She was a threat to the whole city, and everyone in it. Oh, and the rest of the world. She just killed one of the only people trying to protect the universe, and by any sane person's reason, was probably next going to turn against the order.
And she lost the right to subdual when she cut an unarmed 80+r in half, and orphaned his cat.

The whole thing seems strange and illogical.It does? You're a Miko fan, right? Don't you see the irony of finding this situation strange and illogical when everything ever to do with miko has been strange and illogical? Hmm..

Roy attacks her when she is stunned and yells insults that seem to have no point. What was he hoping to accomplish? He has already vented his feelings to Miko. Twice. Wouldn't it have been smarter for him to shut up and battle?It's a heroic web comic.. of course he's going to talk and not just battle. How many strips in this comic have had no talking in it? You don't think the leader of oots attacking a primary npc is a reason to add some dialog? Hmm..

Even better, couldn't he have knocked her out and decided what to do later? It wouldn't have offered her a chance to escape, it would have incapacitated her, and it would have allowed the proper authorities to deal with the situation.Exactly the kinda thing a paladin would have done. Roy isn't a paladin, get over it. Killing her right away and ending her chaotic and illogical influence on events was the right thing to do, to save the universe.

Instead, he puts his personal vengeance ahead of everything. Miko was FINALLY having an introspective moment, and he decides the chance is just too good to pass up. He's a Pc, he's not in it for the NPC character development. I'm sure he'll be really sorry later that it took first degree murder for Miko to have an introspective moment before he killed her, and she didn't have a chance to really think things over..

Maybe I'm being to hard on Roy. Maybe he's just dumb. REALLY dumb. Doesn't-think-before-he-acts dumb.Maybe you're just reading the comic with blue... oops, tan colored goggles?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Actually, being only a level 2 monk, her ability to grapple must be pretty terrible. Their BAB's are nearly even, but due to paladin MAD versus a fighter's reliance on strength, we can assume that Roy probably has a better shot at grappling. Since it would be a surprise attack of sorts, she'd be denied her AoO to prevent it, and Roy would have the upper hand in an attempted pin. The tiny bonus Miko has to her unarmed strikes wouldn't even matter.

[rosebud]

I like Roy. I like Miko. Roy annoys me. Miko annoys me (more).

Okay, with those disclosures out of the way, let's be tactical.

Roy's goal: save the world
Roy's requirements: stop Xykon (and Nale)
Roy's approach: go to the next gate Xykon attacks (and sequester Nale)

Prior to Miko's confrontation with Shojo, Roy thought he needed to go to Giraurd's gate, and teleport was fastest.

After the conflict, it should be clear to Roy that:
They are already at the next gate. No teleport required.
Xykon is stronger than expected. How strong is unknown.
Xykon will likely still make it to Giraurd's gate.
The next battle is for Azure City gate.
The Sapphire Guard is sworn to protect the Azure City gate.
The next battle will therefore involve the Sapphire Guard.
With Shojo gone, Roy needs to work with the Paladins.
Hinjo is the new leader of the Guard.
Because of his ruse, Nale knows the secret of the gates.
The Linear Guild has worked with Xykon in the past.
The incarceration of the LG and Belkar's freedom present problems.So everything Roy planned is now irrelevant. He can no longer go around the Paladins. However, his primary goals are now those of the Guard. But he needs the Palidans to trust him. Miko remains irrelevant. (But her information on Xykon's army as well as MITD is important.)

So the first post in the thread is correct: it is not Roy's responsibility to aid Miko. However, nor is it his responsibility to confront her. But he would have benefited by making use of her. With her discredited, he had the leverage to still get what he needed. And the new power, Hinjo, will not try to manipulate him. And he could use information Miko has, but gathering information has never been his strong point.

So Roy had what he wanted -- and he screwed it up. Again. Which is to say Roy is not a perfect hero. Like Miko, he is also flawed. Just not (even remotely) as much.

[TinSoldier]

It does? You're a Miko fan, right? Don't you see the irony of finding this situation strange and illogical when everything ever to do with miko has been strange and illogical? Hmm..Up until #407, I saw nothing really strange or illogical about Miko.

[spectheintro]

Up until #407, I saw nothing really strange or illogical about Miko.

. . .

You're kidding, right? :smalleek:

[TinSoldier]

. . .

You're kidding, right? :smalleek:No. Why?
.

[Raxtenko]

It does? You're a Miko fan, right? Don't you see the irony of finding this situation strange and illogical when everything ever to do with miko has been strange and illogical? Hmm..

Me too up until about 406 or so, I didn't find her strange or illogical.

[Bozidar]

. . .

You're kidding, right? :smalleek:Hint, Hint, he's not kidding..

[Alfryd]

You're kidding, right?
Strange, yes, in the sense of 'not within a certain range of average.' Illogical, not really. Her behaviour was a rational extension of, IMHO, at least partly irrational premises.

[Bozidar]

ALL PALADINS ARE STRANGE AND ILLOGICAL!! It's in the class description, guys.. read the fine print.

[ElfLad]

And Roy would not have made comments of a sexual nature if she were a guy, because he has not in the past to the other male villains.

Y'know, if Xykon had been able to bone somebody regularly, he wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with these "gates," if you know what I mean.

[PaladinBoy]

Because the murderer's got a weapon and has a penchant for the crazy? Come on, man, I think you're giving yourself too much credit. Given Roy's history with this girl and the situation at hand, you're really pushing the limits of credibility if he remains calm the entire time.

Two points.
1. You may be right. I really can't say for certain how I would react until I was put in that situation. (I hope I never find out.)
2. I believe the question was what I would do, not Roy. Roy's reaction makes sense from a character standpoint.

[PaladinBoy]

ALL PALADINS ARE STRANGE AND ILLOGICAL!! It's in the class description, guys.. read the fine print.

That might depend on the definition of illogical. Do you mean that paladins are, as a whole, too zealous? I don't think that a paladin has to be a massive firebrand, he just has to be good. Good, and paladins, can be quite logical when you think about it, and if the paladin is played well.

Is that actually from the PHB?

[Dectilon]

Y'know, if Xykon had been able to bone somebody regularly, he wouldn't be nearly as obsessed with these "gates," if you know what I mean.

What are you TALKING about? He's nothing but bone! How could he do anything but bone? And besides, he likes to screw people over : )

[Orzel]

Roy had few choices since Miko could whoop him and his party in normal combat. He lacks skill in most conversational skills. The only convo skill he has is Intimidate which is HD based and Miko has more HD.

It wuld have went like this

:miko: How could this happen. It all made sense. For the first in years the gods have show me his treachery.... How?
:roy: Stand down!
:miko: ???
:roy: Stupid Intimidate roll.
:miko: YOU! Of course, this is your fault. Slash! Slash! Slash!

Rest of comic 408

[Wyborn]

Roy had few choices since Miko could whoop him and his party in normal combat. He lacks skill in most conversational skills. The only convo skill he has is Intimidate which is HD based and Miko has more HD.

It wuld have went like this

:miko: How could this happen. It all made sense. For the first in years the gods have show me his treachery.... How?
:roy: Stand down!
:miko: ???
:roy: Stupid Intimidate roll.
:miko: YOU! Of course, this is your fault. Slash! Slash! Slash!

Rest of comic 408

Quoted for truth.

Intimidate would have been Roy's best bet when used on Miko, and it still would have in all likelihood failed. The chances of it working are the kind of thing a metagamer would talk about, but nobody else.

Here's another scenario for everybody:

1. You are Roy.
2. Miko has just killed Shojo, and, apparently dazed and confused, has just picked up her sword again and is turning to face you.
3. You know she's most likely Hostile towards you.
4. You could not Bluff Thog into an ice cream shop, and you could not Persuade Nale to try to kill Elan.
5. You have decent Intimidate skills, but in this case it would be kind of like trying to Intimidate Godzilla - even if you got a natural 20 it's just really going to piss Miko off.

What do you do? What do you do?

[Demented]

Y'know, Roy could've been trying his intimidate rolls constantly with his comments while attacking. Which naturally shows that....
A) He has no ranks in them.
B) He's currently got a -16 modifier, thanks to trying and failing repeatedly.

[rosebud]

Reiterating previous comments concisely:

1) Organizing a plan with Hinjo was most important.
2) Roy confronting Miko was unimportant.
3) Extracting information from Miko was important.

Roy did everything unimportant and nothing important.

[Wyborn]

Reiterating previous comments concisely:

1) Organizing a plan with Hinjo was most important.
2) Roy confronting Miko was unimportant.
3) Extracting information from Miko was important.

Roy did everything unimportant and nothing important.

I will argue against this post.

1) Granted. Very important.
2) False! If he wanted to do anything else on this list he needed to do this, especially when it comes down to trying to get more information out of her. You don't let a lunatic run around, especially when she's committed regicide, so this is VERY important.
3) True, but not entirely - Xykon is coming, and Miko has no idea how big his forces are. Interrogating her might be important for one reason or another (Roy could not have done this, he lacks the skills for it), but everything important she knows about the impending attack is already known by everyone in the room.

So Roy didn't have an opportunity to do number 1, number 2 was quite important, and he didn't have the ability to do number 3 anyway.

[PaladinBoy]

I mostly agree with you, Wyborn, except I would like to add one thing.

While Roy confronting Miko is very important, Roy attacking Miko might not be. I just think that a verbal confrontation might have had a better result than Roy's greatsword could get.

[xyzchyx]

Intimidate would have been Roy's best bet when used on Miko, and it still would have in all likelihood failed.Quite possibly... but we'll never really know for sure. Speculating that it would have failed is relying on two key premises, only one of which has credibility: 1) Miko hasn't changed. 2) it's important to the story.

We know that #2 is true because Rich did it that way, and presumably he has a reason for doing it. But putting that aside, and assuming they were real people, doing real things, we actually _cannot_ assume anything about #1 being true as well because until Roy mocks her and then strikes at her with his sword, her state is not one of rage, but of shock and disbelief. This is not the body language of a person who is just going to continue to do what they've always done as if nothing had ever happened.

Now Roy may not have put many ranks into intimidate, but Miko was in the middle of expressing self-doubt on a level unlike anything we've ever seen of her before in this comic, and that certainly would have translated into a very favorable circumstance bonus. It's not at all inconceivable her self-doubt could have transferred directly into an act of submission simply because she was too deep in introspective thought questioning what has just occurred to do anything but. In either case, demanding that she drop her weapon and stand down is still what he _should_ have done first, and only *IF* she still proceeded to go berserk after that should he have resorted to combative tactics. Doing that may have cost Roy a surprise action, but in actuality he really wouldn't need it to take Miko on with his weapon of specialization anyways.

[EvilElitest]

OK, two main points
1. Adressed to Aliar
"... because she's simply standing there in shock? Because she's not actually threatening you? Because you have the advantage in numbers? Because it only takes a few seconds to ask her to surrender?"
OK, you are really looking at this situation in an unrealistic fashion. Bear this in mind. She may be standing in shock, but she just killed you boss while he is unarmed, then was fricking smited. She might be in shock for becoming a fallen paliden, but the point still remains. She is a murder. You understand what she has gone through up to this point, but you have read what she has done in the last few comics. Roy has not. He is killing a murder. She killed an unarmed man, against her own law.

"Er, no. You see, he's not "lawfully killing a murderer" because Roy is not the law incarnate. Sure, he doesn't have to consider himself bound to uphold the laws of Azure City but I doubt he's the law made flesh in his home country either. And again, the gods revoked her paladin status, she's no longer a holy knight, it takes a lot to become one and all it takes to stop is one indisputably evil action. This does not however mean that they've judged her as being worthy of death. She is simply no longer judged to be worthy of being a paladin.

2. She might still be lawfully executed for her crime, sure, but that would entail a trial. If she were to resist arrest and the only recourse of the guards was to use lethal force to subdue her, there would no fault to them either.

What Roy did was nothing like that. Call it revenge, call it vindictiveness, just don't call it either lawful or good."
How the hell is killing an assians not a lawful act? No really, how. This is the middle ages. Back then, with hte exception of cliffport, they don't have a mordern law system. hell, look at the trial. It may be fake, but it was dam near uncomperising in apperence. She has played the role of an assian (forgive spelling) and has been proven guilty by the gods. I mean come on! This sociaty is ruled by relgion. While i would not do this my self, it is not at all illogical for roy exucute her. Even if killing the unarmed leader and direct blashempy were not a cause for the death sentence, consider this. Roy is punishing the guilty. That is lawful. If he were chaotic, it might be a different case, but as it is, it is perfectly logical for him to attack.
As for good, Roy is not lawful stuipied. We have an unhinged pychopath, with a sword, who is BETTER FIGHTER THAN Roy, and know for temper tantrums. Why risk your life doing somthing perfectly irrational. I don't know, did you expect him to say "well, it is nice that you cut cut an old man in half, but now let me lecture to you about morals. But first off, are you ok mrs. scray murderer? Want a hug?"
In D&D, it is perfecly lawful to kill a murderer. In real life, this would be a different case, but here it is not a problem. Miko did the very same thing. If Nale has killed Shojo and then looked sorry, no one would complain.
3. Miko has just been proven guilty by the gods. In D&D, gods are real and if they are not protecting her, why should roy? When she was a agent of good, he tried his best to work along with her, but if she has preformed evil, why bother?
"Why do you seem fixated on the idea of redemption? Whether she's redeemable or not is between herself and the gods. As someone who is ostentatiously lawful good however, Roy's commitment should be to offer her the chance to surrender before he leaps to the attack. His commitment should be to the law before vindictiveness.

I'm not adverse to the idea of people being fallible, maybe Roy's leaping to the attack to try and make up to himself for not being able to move earlier. It's even a much less grave error than Miko's was. It still however falls far short of the ideals he claims to uphold, and the taunts simply make his motivations seem all the more foul."
4. Why am i fixated on the idea of redemption. I don't know, it is just the little magic letters that are at the top of this post tells me that roy is not obliged to redem Miko. As someone who is lawful good, it is roys job to protect the innocent, who miko just killed. If roy was a palidin, or a priest, it would be different, but as it is, he is doing his duty to protect those around by punishing the guilty. Serously, it is really unrealistic to help your enemies who you dont like anyways. I know that this will come back to bite roy, but we know this. Roy does not, or if his player does, he chose not to meta game.

5. "I really hope you're just joking here."
Sorry, what i ment was a novel use of self defence as a way to cover for a crime would be to kill a person who has not commited a crime yet. However, as miko has already commited a crime, the point is mute.
OH and for
I know peopleCartographer, i don't really understand what your saying. Ether you are agreeing with me, or implying that attacking tratiors to the crown and the church is not against the law? could you make it a little me clear, thanks.
like miko, but she is a good character because of the flaws. Stop trying to make the whole comic (and all non miko lovers) seem like a mass plan to make miko look bad. Just lean back and enjoy the show. We know why Roy's idea did not work out, but he acted very logically at the time.

[Deper]

My two cents,

Roy was faced with a woman who not only showed a frightening ability to jump to conclusions, but who's conclusion (or paranoid delusions if you will) focused on blaming him and his friends as being the most evil creatures in the world, and who was willing to let these beliefs carry her to murder for crimes she had no proof had even occured.

Miko is not the type of person who admits she is wrong, and that was not where her train of thought was bringing her. The next step in figuring out why the Gods had done what they had done would have been the same one she came to after Roy struck her. That he and the Order had tricked her. To doubt otherwise would mean that she would have to admit to herself that she was Personally Wrong, and that she had killed a man who had created and maintained a Lawful Good Society.

Roy knows enough of Miko to realize that she was going to turn on him. Admitting her personal fault or not blaming the Order of the Stick would be completely out of character and she's too far gone for a personal revelation now. Even if she admitted Shojo's innocence she has based too much of her world view on "The Order is Evil" to doubt that without doubting everything she has ever believed, especially since "the Gods" had brought her to the fact that the Order was working for Xylon. On top of that, he was pissed that she murdered an ally and the one person actively working to keep the world from being destroyed.

Attacking her isn't the "right" or "correct" action to get the "best" ending for the story, but it is the human and natural response for Roy.

It isn't Roy's job to redeem Miko. If anything he's doing exactly what she would do in his situation. She just cannot concieve of being in the wrong.

[Glome]

Now Roy may not have put many ranks into intimidate, but Miko was in the middle of expressing self-doubt on a level unlike anything we've ever seen of her before in this comic, and that certainly would have translated into a very favorable circumstance bonus. It's not at all inconceivable her self-doubt could have transferred directly into an act of submission simply because she was too deep in introspective thought questioning what has just occurred to do anything but. In either case, demanding that she drop her weapon and stand down is still what he _should_ have done first, and only *IF* she still proceeded to go berserk after that should he have resorted to combative tactics. Doing that may have cost Roy a surprise action, but in actuality he really wouldn't need it to take Miko on with his weapon of specialization anyways.

Except that's not how Roy operates. I grant you that such a time was the point where someone would have the best chance to be able to get through to her, possibly even Roy if he was lucky enough.

However, it would be quite out of character for Roy to stop and try to negotiate or even try to intimidate her into surrender considering everything that happened up to him and his party at that point. There are plenty of examples in the OOTS where the characters in the story could have saved themselves some grief by using another tactic. Rarely though is it something that the character would actually do, instead it's something that us looking on as outside observerers realize would have been a better option.

If Durokon, V or even Haley or Elen were in the room, things might have come around differently, and I can believe any one of them could have tried using social skills to end the conflict (ok, maybe not V). However, even if Roy had confidence in his abililty to get high level opponents to follow his will in some way, Miko has been acting completely irrationally in his eyes and he wouldn't even try to talk sense into her at this point. Especially considering the last time he made such an attempt to reason with her they were dragged back in chains, and the person most able was to deal with Miko was just cut into two pieces by Miko.

No, I understand perfectly that Miko or any paladin for that matter is most likely to change their ways right after falling from grace, but that still doesn't make it something that Roy is likely to do at this point, even if circumstance bonuses added up to the point where he had a realistic chance.

At least that's certainly not how I would play Roy if I was given his character sheet in a DnD game, regardless of the fact that it may actually have been the optimal solution to the problem.

[Wyborn]

Quite possibly... but we'll never really know for sure. Speculating that it would have failed is relying on two key premises, only one of which has credibility: 1) Miko hasn't changed. 2) it's important to the story.

Untrue. It relies on the premise that this isn't a "cutscene", so to speak, which this obviously is not. As such it relies on the d20 rules, like everything else in the comic does. The importance to the story has somethign to do with only in cases where Rich uses that to break the rules. Obviously, in this case, he did not, so I will not address that point further.


But putting that aside, and assuming they were real people, doing real things,

Sorry, your argument falls apart here. Yes, you could say they're real people, but they're still operating within the boundaries of the d20 system and cannot do something against that system. It simply cannot be done unless the Giant does something openly against it.


we actually _cannot_ assume anything about #1 being true as well because until Roy mocks her and then strikes at her with his sword, her state is not one of rage, but of shock and disbelief.

Disbelief? Sure. Shock? Not really. And her current emotional state has nothing to do with it, as she is still Hostile towards both Belkar and Roy, one of whom is a murderer and the other of whom she sees as some kind of evil mastermind.


This is not the body language of a person who is just going to continue to do what they've always done as if nothing had ever happened.

Doesn't matter. The fact that she got knocked down, then stooped to pick up her sword? Doesn't mean anything. It means she got knocked down then picked up her sword, holding it with the blade up. She's just committed regicide. There's no reason to think she isn't still Hostile.


Now Roy may not have put many ranks into intimidate, but Miko was in the middle of expressing self-doubt on a level unlike anything we've ever seen of her before in this comic, and that certainly would have translated into a very favorable circumstance bonus. It's not at all inconceivable her self-doubt could have transferred directly into an act of submission simply because she was too deep in introspective thought questioning what has just occurred to do anything but.
Not true. Even assuming that Roy had maxed out his Intimidate skill and Miko has a Wisdom of 10, Roy's chance of actually intimidating her is still only about 50%. Now given that's a fairly good chance, but he would have to keep on Intimidating her for ten rounds straight - in case you didn't notice, she escaped in four.


In either case, demanding that she drop her weapon and stand down is still what he _should_ have done first, and only *IF* she still proceeded to go berserk after that should he have resorted to combative tactics. Doing that may have cost Roy a surprise action, but in actuality he really wouldn't need it to take Miko on with his weapon of specialization anyways.

Sorry, you're just wrong here. It's only what he should have done if it presented the best avenue for success: remember, Roy is a tactician first and a warrior second. He's going to weigh his option and see where the greatest possibility of success lies. With Intimidate, there is a fifty percent chance he can take her down in ten rounds, with her beating the hell out of him the entire time because he can't do any other actions while he's doing that. With subdual damage followed up by a righteous ass-whooping, he could get her down in about half that time, if the comic is any indicator.

Trying to beat her into submission was the wisest course of action: that it didn't work has nothing to do with whether or not he should have done it. He should have. That's all there is to it.

[xyzchyx]

Doesn't matter. The fact that she got knocked down, then stooped to pick up her sword? Doesn't mean anything. It means she got knocked down then picked up her sword, holding it with the blade up. She's just committed regicide. There's no reason to think she isn't still Hostile.Two words: body language.

She had stooped to pick up her sword, true, but her posture and particularly her facial expression did not suggest hostility at that moment, if anything, it suggested that she was clutching at the last thing she had just been holding which felt familiar, while she was struggling and trying to make sense out of what had just happened.


Even assuming that Roy had maxed out his Intimidate skill and Miko has a Wisdom of 10, Roy's chance of actually intimidating her is still only about 50%.That's about what I'd have placed the odds at too, actually. 50-50 either way. Of course, it wouldn't have worked at all if she were still a paladin and immune to fear, but she doesn't have that bonus anymore.


Now given that's a fairly good chance, but he would have to keep on Intimidating her for ten rounds straight - in case you didn't notice, she escaped in four.Not at all... the SRD description of the Intimidate skill says that "The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence", so if he was successful, he would remain so without any further checks required, as long as he didn't try to push his intimidation efforts any further (which would necessitate another check). If successful, he could then he could call to Hinjo to ask for a little help dealing with her. If not, well... at least he tried. As I said, I really don't think either outcome was more likely than the other, given the circumstances.


Sorry, you're just wrong here. It's only what he should have done if it presented the best avenue for success: remember, Roy is a tactician first and a warrior second. He's going to weigh his option and see where the greatest possibility of success lies. With Intimidate, there is a fifty percent chance he can take her down in ten rounds, with her beating the hell out of him the entire time because he can't do any other actions while he's doing that. With subdual damage followed up by a righteous ass-whooping, he could get her down in about half that time, if the comic is any indicator.I'm again not saying that it wasn't understandable what he did, or even particularly unexpected, given his character... only disappointing. The higher road would have been to get her to calm down, not to aggravate the situation further. I'm not suggesting that Roy had an obligation to redeem her, of course... but just get her to stop being homicidal for a few minutes until Hinjo could come and formally place her under arrest.

Now that said, if she _DID_ decide to resist arrest at that point, when every opportunity for peaceful surrender was given, then by all means all due ass-kicking would be justified.

Miko did a heinous thing, and needs to be punished, but starting by basically telling her that nobody cares what she thinks or feels when she's plainly showing that much insecurity about herself was not only a bad way to go about it, but about the worst possible thing that anyone could have done.

[Yogi]

In Miko's mind, he was refusing. It's explained better in the FRC. Will it make you feel better if I say that she should have waited? Probably not.See, now you pull "In Miko's mind" again completely out of thin air. Where did that ever come into play?

Right. Because Roy attacks her before she has a chance to exhibit any desires whatsoever. Whether to give in or to continue fighting.Miko, like Roy, is perfectly able to surrender during a fight. Speaking and dropping your weapon are both free actions. If she had done so, Roy would have had to stop attacking (or risk alignment change.)

[Lord Zentei]

Miko, like Roy, is perfectly able to surrender during a fight. Speaking and dropping your weapon are both free actions. If she had done so, Roy would have had to stop attacking (or risk alignment change.)

I really didn't see Roy giving her much of a chance to surrender nor apparently hoping for such an outcome what with all the taunts and apparently going for the metaphorical throat and such.

But then they were both in a rather impractical emotional state for such to have taken place on either side, quite frankly. I can't really fault Roy for not asking for her surrender, nor Miko for not surrendering in the face of Roy's attack.

[EvilElitest]

We are covering the same grounds again. The point of this thread is to prove that roy is not obligated to redeem Miko, aka he did not do wrong attacking her. Now we have proven that Miko was emotionally jumbled for once, but we also know that her gods have punished her for doing evil. We know that the Miko unjustly killed an inocent man who was unarmed, had no way to defend himself, was trying to talk about the situation, and happens to be the leader of the nation. We know that Miko went against the laws of her gods, her code, and her nation. We know that she is still powerful, and could have very likely (still could) defeat Roy. We know that she is unhinged and that she tends to jump to conculshions about people that are not justified. We know that she hates Roy and he her and that Roy rescepected and grudenly admired Shojo, who was in fact working for the good of the nation (miko did not know that last one but Roy did). And so, is it to hard to conculed, that it was perfecly logical, if a bit cold to attack Miko. Can anyone say that it was his obligation to redeem Miko and name a reson. It would most likely result in fight with her possibly escaping (she did that anyways, but Roy did not know that). And bear in mind, even a non fallen Miko is a bit more of a hinderence than a help, perticually if she thinks OOTS are evil. She is quite liable to do something that screws the OOTS and say it was for the "greater good." Bear in mind, any one can work for the greater good, a paldin needs to work for the common good. The point is, that it was perfely logical and good roleplay for roy to act as he did.

[13_CBS]

I'd like to draw up an analogy here:

Let's imagine you're a law officer trying to do some mild crowd control at, say, a political rally.

Suddenly, a person with a gun leaps up and opens fire, killing a major political figure. The assassin then reels back in shock, drops the weapon, and falls to the ground. At this point, you've just realized what's going on.

The assassin then PICKS UP the gun again and begins to stand up. Do you stand there and demand for surrender when the perpetrator has just rearmed himself? Or would you rather take action, such as try to fire a disable shot, tackle the assassin, or outright kill him?

I find Roy in a similar situation. Miko's just killed Shojo, Miko also has a history of violence. Roy's angry and Roy's just seen Miko pick up her sword. I seriously doubt he noticed Miko's specific body language, not while he was angry like that. Thus, Roy attacks.

[PaladinBoy]

We are covering the same grounds again. The point of this thread is to prove that roy is not obligated to redeem Miko, aka he did not do wrong attacking her. Now we have proven that Miko was emotionally jumbled for once, but we also know that her gods have punished her for doing evil. We know that the Miko unjustly killed an inocent man who was unarmed, had no way to defend himself, was trying to talk about the situation, and happens to be the leader of the nation. We know that Miko went against the laws of her gods, her code, and her nation. We know that she is still powerful, and could have very likely (still could) defeat Roy. We know that she is unhinged and that she tends to jump to conculshions about people that are not justified. We know that she hates Roy and he her and that Roy rescepected and grudenly admired Shojo, who was in fact working for the good of the nation (miko did not know that last one but Roy did). And so, is it to hard to conculed, that it was perfecly logical, if a bit cold to attack Miko. Can anyone say that it was his obligation to redeem Miko and name a reson. It would most likely result in fight with her possibly escaping (she did that anyways, but Roy did not know that). And bear in mind, even a non fallen Miko is a bit more of a hinderence than a help, perticually if she thinks OOTS are evil. She is quite liable to do something that screws the OOTS and say it was for the "greater good." Bear in mind, any one can work for the greater good, a paldin needs to work for the common good. The point is, that it was perfely logical and good roleplay for roy to act as he did.

Hold on. Are you saying that Roy's actions were correct and good, that Roy's actions make sense from a roleplaying standpoint, or both?

The first may not be true. Roy could have tried to talk Miko down. Whether or not it had a chance of working or not is irrelevant. It is still the right thing to do to offer a chance to surrender peacefully, particularly since Miko was acting shocked and confused.

The second is true. Roy's actions make quite a lot of sense from a roleplaying standpoint.


I'd like to draw up an analogy here:

Let's imagine you're a law officer trying to do some mild crowd control at, say, a political rally.

Suddenly, a person with a gun leaps up and opens fire, killing a major political figure. The assassin then reels back in shock, drops the weapon, and falls to the ground. At this point, you've just realized what's going on.

The assassin then PICKS UP the gun again and begins to stand up. Do you stand there and demand for surrender when the perpetrator has just rearmed himself? Or would you rather take action, such as try to fire a disable shot, tackle the assassin, or outright kill him?

I find Roy in a similar situation. Miko's just killed Shojo, Miko also has a history of violence. Roy's angry and Roy's just seen Miko pick up her sword. I seriously doubt he noticed Miko's specific body language, not while he was angry like that. Thus, Roy attacks.
Today 08:31 PM

Yes, I offer him the chance to surrender. I'll get ready to fight, because that's just good sense, but as he is no immediate threat (presuming he's not actually aiming the gun at someone else), I would ask for a surrender first. Law enforcement officers in this world try to avoid force of any kind unless absolutely necessary, aka they're trying to run away or harm someone else.

It is a little different in the DnD world, but as it is possible to hold off a swordsman with less risk to nearby innocents than hold off a gunman it seems that a demand for surrender would be MORE likely.

Of course, I realize that the criminal already HAS harmed someone, but there's nothing to be done for that except get a medic. Attempting to attack the criminal could actually do MORE harm to nearby innocents in either this world or the DnD worlds.

That might be what Roy should have done, to be as Good as possible. Your reasoning, in the final sentence, does make sense from a roleplaying standpoint.

[Serenity]

My point, at least, is that Roy's action was correct and good, if not necessarily the best of all possible actions in the best of all possible worlds. It was also just about the only action we could expect the character to take. To demonize him and say that he will be entirely to blame if Miko goes Blackguard is unjust and simply providing her with a scapegoat.Plus, it fails to give credit where credit is truly due: if anyone's to blame for her fall, it's Belkar and his jailbreak stunt.

[Wyborn]

Hold on. Are you saying that Roy's actions were correct and good, that Roy's actions make sense from a roleplaying standpoint, or both?

The first may not be true. Roy could have tried to talk Miko down. Whether or not it had a chance of working or not is irrelevant. It is still the right thing to do to offer a chance to surrender peacefully, particularly since Miko was acting shocked and confused.

Do I need to pull out a picture of Lex Luthor here? I very well may.

No, the chances are not irrelevant. The Good thing to do, in this case, is detain her. He was doing that. He had a better chance to do it by subduing her than talking to her, so from a purely pragmatic standpoint beating her done was the more Good thing to do. Why?

Simple: the matter here is subduing her. That's it. You can do it with words or with your fist. Neither is going to kill her. There is a fifty percent chance that Intimidate will work, and then it has to be kept up - continuously - to subdue her from a Hostile state, which she was clearly in. This would have taken ten rounds, and she could have escaped during any of them. Intimidate does not paralyze you. Or he could provoke her into attacking by slugging it out with her and, if he's lucky, beat her down without her getting away.

Was he lucky? No.

Did he take the better option? Oh hell yeah.


Yes, I offer him the chance to surrender. I'll get ready to fight, because that's just good sense, but as he is no immediate threat (presuming he's not actually aiming the gun at someone else), I would ask for a surrender first. Law enforcement officers in this world try to avoid force of any kind unless absolutely necessary, aka they're trying to run away or harm someone else.
No, law enforcemento fficers do not do that. The guy would be lucky if he were allowed to pick up the gun at all. If he was holding it again, he would be shot. Repeatedly. And not to wound - they would kill him. It's not a joke, and they wouldn't be in the wrong if he just assassinated someone and picked the murder weapon back up. They would kill him, they'd be justified, and that would be it. If you're doing anything else you're being irresponsible and not properly protecting the people around you. It's negligence, which by nature in D&D is Evil.


It is a little different in the DnD world, but as it is possible to hold off a swordsman with less risk to nearby innocents than hold off a gunman it seems that a demand for surrender would be MORE likely.

Not true. Miko is a sixteenth or seventeenth level warrior who could cut through so many NPCs in one turn it boggles the mind. The amount of destruction she could cause are Earth-shattering. She had to be put down. That's it. Not killed, but subdued, which is what Roy did. He was in the right.


Of course, I realize that the criminal already HAS harmed someone, but there's nothing to be done for that except get a medic. Attempting to attack the criminal could actually do MORE harm to nearby innocents in either this world or the DnD worlds.

How in the nine Hells do you figure that? If you kill the criminal he's not going to hurt anyone else - if you tell him to put down the gun and he fires wildly into the crowd, you're responsible for the further deaths and injuries of those people. You should shoot him. That's it. Don't give him that chance. You're putting them in greater harm's way, which goes directly against your code.


That might be what Roy should have done, to be as Good as possible. Your reasoning, in the final sentence, does make sense from a roleplaying standpoint.

As "Good" as possible? There aren't differing degrees of Goodness in D&D, it's black and white. Subduing her instead of killing her is a Good act, and that's what Roy was doing. Trying to reason with her would have been a Good act too, but with far worse potential consequences. Roy knew that, so reasoning with her would have only been Good towards her: with Roy's knowledge, however, that she is so dangerous and unlikely too listen to him, it would have balanced out to Neutral or Evil simply because he's intentionally running a far greater risk of her getting away.

Roy is not obligated to help her. He's obligated to do exactly the opposite, exactly because she is so dangerous: if he puts her down without killing her he should be made a saint.

[EvilElitest]

What i am saying, considering that options at the time, Roy's actions, while not the ones i would do make perfect sense and are still good (protecting other from harm, and delvering justice). Yes he could talk to her, but as is said before, it seem metagammy (new spelling) and risky. I doubt that Roy though that Miko would listen to reason, as she never has in the pass. Also bear in mind, that Roy has gone easy on Miko sense he relized she was a palidin. He tried to work peacfully with her (though a attraction was part of it, it was not the whole picture), did not attempt to kill her unfailly, did not attempt to escape, instead directly confronting her, and he did not ever do anything perticully treachous to her dispite the fact he had reason to (belkar did but that is beside the point). Now Miko has been proven wronge and is no longer an agent of law. So it is now ok for Roy to punish her for her evil deeds. Look at any juctice system.

[xyzchyx]

Paladinboy, it seems you and I see eye-to-eye exactly on this issue.

[spectheintro]

There are plenty of examples in the OOTS where the characters in the story could have saved themselves some grief by using another tactic. Rarely though is it something that the character would actually do, instead it's something that us looking on as outside observerers realize would have been a better option.

This needed to be said again. It is so true. Anyone finding fault with Roy's actions is doing so from an outsider's perspective, as a neutral third party. Wyborn's points about law enforcement should also be noted, because it is a valid (and true) real world analogy.

This is a clash of idealism vs. realism. The idealists think Roy should have acted a certain way, the realists are asserting that this was Roy's only feasible course of action. I don't know if we can move past that impasse.

[PaladinBoy]

Simple: the matter here is subduing her. That's it. You can do it with words or with your fist. Neither is going to kill her. There is a fifty percent chance that Intimidate will work, and then it has to be kept up - continuously - to subdue her from a Hostile state, which she was clearly in. This would have taken ten rounds, and she could have escaped during any of them. Intimidate does not paralyze you. Or he could provoke her into attacking by slugging it out with her and, if he's lucky, beat her down without her getting away.

Was he lucky? No.

Did he take the better option? Oh hell yeah.

Perhaps saying that Roy should try to talk Miko down is incorrect.
A better way to say it would be, offer her a chance to surrender peacefully. ONE chance.



No, law enforcemento fficers do not do that. The guy would be lucky if he were allowed to pick up the gun at all. If he was holding it again, he would be shot. Repeatedly. And not to wound - they would kill him. It's not a joke, and they wouldn't be in the wrong if he just assassinated someone and picked the murder weapon back up. They would kill him, they'd be justified, and that would be it. If you're doing anything else you're being irresponsible and not properly protecting the people around you. It's negligence, which by nature in D&D is Evil.

Okay, you're probably right about that one.




Not true. Miko is a sixteenth or seventeenth level warrior who could cut through so many NPCs in one turn it boggles the mind. The amount of destruction she could cause are Earth-shattering. She had to be put down. That's it. Not killed, but subdued, which is what Roy did. He was in the right.

There are no NPCs nearby that Miko is posing a threat to. The only NPC in the room is Hinjo, and I presume that Miko has not fallen so far that she will attack a paladin. And if she tries to run, than you're right. She'd need to be subdued.



How in the nine Hells do you figure that? If you kill the criminal he's not going to hurt anyone else - if you tell him to put down the gun and he fires wildly into the crowd, you're responsible for the further deaths and injuries of those people. You should shoot him. That's it. Don't give him that chance. You're putting them in greater harm's way, which goes directly against your code.

A gun battle in a crowded area threatens all of the people in that area. Attempting to shoot the criminal will get him to shoot back, and he doesn't care about the innocents. So you'd have one chance. Not a good chance unless you're very accurate. If the criminal looks confused, or even if he doesn't, giving him one chance to surrender isn't going to unhinge him and make him start shooting. Demonstrating hostile intentions will.


As "Good" as possible? There aren't differing degrees of Goodness in D&D, it's black and white. Subduing her instead of killing her is a Good act, and that's what Roy was doing. Trying to reason with her would have been a Good act too, but with far worse potential consequences. Roy knew that, so reasoning with her would have only been Good towards her: with Roy's knowledge, however, that she is so dangerous and unlikely too listen to him, it would have balanced out to Neutral or Evil simply because he's intentionally running a far greater risk of her getting away.

I think that even in DnD there are degrees. That said, you're probably right about that one too.


Roy is not obligated to help her. He's obligated to do exactly the opposite, exactly because she is so dangerous: if he puts her down without killing her he should be made a saint.

Roy isn't obligated to help her. Even a paladin wouldn't be required to redeem her. That said, it is the Good thing to do. Not that it's the only Good thing to do, just that it is probably the most Good course of action. Also, I wouldn't mind if Roy did manage to capture Miko by beating her senseless. I just think that Roy ignored an opportunity to handle it peacefully.

[Deper]

Perhaps saying that Roy should try to talk Miko down is incorrect.
A better way to say it would be, offer her a chance to surrender peacefully. ONE chance.

Why? What in Miko's character has shown she will surrender or listen to reason?


There are no NPCs nearby that Miko is posing a threat to. The only NPC in the room is Hinjo, and I presume that Miko has not fallen so far that she will attack a paladin. And if she tries to run, than you're right. She'd need to be subdued.

She's made it clear that she sees him as the root of all evil and has sworn bloody vengence against him. She doesn't have it in her character to believe that she was wrong about everything. That she blamed him for tricking her was where she was going to go, sneak attack or not.

Besides, he can switch to non-lethal damage at any time. It makes more sense to do it when he's got a clear upper hand. She's taken out the entire team twice before, and he's fighting her alone. Now's not the time to take the non-lethal penalty up front.


Roy isn't obligated to help her. Even a paladin wouldn't be required to redeem her. That said, it is the Good thing to do. Not that it's the only Good thing to do, just that it is probably the most Good course of action. Also, I wouldn't mind if Roy did manage to capture Miko by beating her senseless. I just think that Roy ignored an opportunity to handle it peacefully.He knows Miko too well. Has she shown herself to be able to accept that she has been wrong about anything, especially considering the wild logical jumps she made to justify killing Shojo?

[Jorkens]

This is a clash of idealism vs. realism. The idealists think Roy should have acted a certain way, the realists are asserting that this was Roy's only feasible course of action. I don't know if we can move past that impasse.
AFAICT the basic argument boils down to
i) was Miko on the verge of some kind of moral awakening, and if so, should Roy have seen / deduced this? And
ii) was Miko a threat or was she still in shock / mental turmoil / whatever?

Which means that we're basically trying to judge things based on about three panels of the expressions of a stick figure, which is bound to make for a good argument...

On the traditionally shaky ground of trying to second guess stuff based on dramatic convention, one thing that occurs on the 'was Miko about to see the error of her ways' issue - which is only tangential to whether Roy was right to attack her anyway - is that if she was actually about to jump to the conclusion she reaches in panel 9 anyway, why the Giant didn't let her get there on her own so that it would be indisputable that Roy had no choice? Why sow the seed of doubt that if Roy hadn't attacked her she might have turned good? But obviously this is way too meta to have any bearing on discussions of what the characters should or should not have done...

[EvilElitest]

Bear in mind, sence we are reading this, trying to redeem Miko seems like a good option because we know that Roy is going to pay for that later. However, a moral delhema working out for the better requires that the other person cares. Why should Roy care about Miko's feelings anymore? She is now a murder, and a dangerous one at that. He does not know what she has been though or why she jumped to the conculsion that she did. To Roy, she is insane, no redemtion required. Please, can some new ideas come up.

[Deper]

AFAICT the basic argument boils down to
i) was Miko on the verge of some kind of moral awakening, and if so, should Roy have seen / deduced this?

Miko has not shown herself to be capable of admiting that she has been wrong unless another person has bent to her views. She does not bend to the views of others.

She had a massive conspiracy theory that lead to Shojo's death. She doesn't even admit that what she believed was wrong, just that she doesn't understand why the gods punished her. Since she is unable to believe that her actions can possibly be wrong her only other option would be to blame the Order for her mistakes. She would have done that with or without Roy attacking, that's how her character is and how her mind works. It would have been cheap for her to have a epiphany where she realized she was wrong about everything.

Also, besides knowing Miko enough to know that it would only take a second for her to try to blame her fall on him, Roy was unable to see her face and all he heard was her saying that she was right and that Shojo had been a traitor.


And
ii) was Miko a threat or was she still in shock / mental turmoil / whatever?They surprised Miko before when they stood with Belkar. She responded with pure rage. She was rearming herself, and had just finished a rant about how the Order were the root of all evil. As far as Roy knew, she was coming after him next.

[Jorkens]

It would have been cheap for her to have a epiphany where she realized she was wrong about everything.

Erm, what other time would you expect someone to have an epiphany?

[Jorkens]

But generally, my point was that we're arguing over a fairly deep question of character - is the direct and clear disapproval of her gods enough to shake Miko out of her delusions? We've never seen her in a situation quite like this before and I don't think arguing out the evidence either way is going to end up with any sort of indisputable conclusion. I suspect that we're all (myself included) trying to retroactively rationalize gut feelings.

[Deper]

Erm, what other time would you expect someone to have an epiphany?

Oh, other character's would have epiphanies. Just not her. Miko has never been portrayed as anything other than unwavering and inflexible when it came to her beliefs, to the point where she took a few snippets of unlawful activity and executed the man for high treason.

What makes more sense for her character, from everything you've seen of her.

1. Turns around and sees Roy's angry and horrified expression and says "I was wrong about everything and the Gods have punished me rightly for killing my lord."

2. Turns around and sees Roy's angry and horrified expression and says "Could I have been wrong about Shojo? Or even you? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do."

3. Turns around and sees Roy's angry and horrified expression and says "You! You tricked me! This is all your fault! I'll send you to whatever Abyss awaits your dark soul and the Gods will realize I am still their servant!"

She believes that she is a servant of Good and thus infalliable. She believes that the Order is evil. Since the Order was involved when she killed Shojo, they must have manipulated her into doing it. She is incapable of admiting that she is wrong, especially when it would mean admiting that she had done something evil of her own free will, without anyone tricking her to do it.

[PaladinFreak]

Roy's thought process: "All that matters to me right now is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to fix this stupid end-of-the-world thing."

Roy attacks and Miko's response is: "You tricked me! You staged all of this so I would strike down my Lord!"

Let the facts speak for themselves.

SIMUED!! *STAB*

[Demented]

Well, if you combine them, you get essentially the same in spirit, only with extra awesomesauce.


She turns around and sees Roy's angry and horrified expression and says "I was wrong about everything and the Gods have punished me rightly for killing my lord.
"The traitor was not he. It was you."

[Deper]

Roy's thought process: "All that matters to me right now is that you just killed the only other person who was actively trying to fix this stupid end-of-the-world thing."

Roy attacks and Miko's response is: "You tricked me! You staged all of this so I would strike down my Lord!"

Let the facts speak for themselves.

SIMUED!! *STAB*

Roy speed along a natural process. She doesn't believe she can be wrong, and she attributes all sorts of superhuman masterminding to them. it isn't in her character to look for the fault in herself, especially when she already has a nice juicy scapegoat all set up and waiting for her wrath.

That's her character. She's been featured in enough comics for that to be established. If you think otherwise it shouldn't be hard to find proof.

Edit: I praise your superior option, Demented.

[NecroPaladin]

AFAICT the basic argument boils down to
i) was Miko on the verge of some kind of moral awakening, and if so, should Roy have seen / deduced this? And
ii) was Miko a threat or was she still in shock / mental turmoil / whatever?

Which means that we're basically trying to judge things based on about three panels of the expressions of a stick figure, which is bound to make for a good argument...

On the traditionally shaky ground of trying to second guess stuff based on dramatic convention, one thing that occurs on the 'was Miko about to see the error of her ways' issue - which is only tangential to whether Roy was right to attack her anyway - is that if she was actually about to jump to the conclusion she reaches in panel 9 anyway, why the Giant didn't let her get there on her own so that it would be indisputable that Roy had no choice? Why sow the seed of doubt that if Roy hadn't attacked her she might have turned good? But obviously this is way too meta to have any bearing on discussions of what the characters should or should not have done...

Hmm...I just posted a thread about Idealism and Miko that you all can check out (this is hardly a shameless self-plug because I expect more negative response than anything else)...I think reactions are actually more to her because she seems more the hero than Roy seems a villain, and that his villain persona seems to grow if he conflicts with another hero.