Can a Psion without Psychic Reformation/similar cheese be an effective "arcanist"?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Using just the things the Psion has normally without utilizing methods of acquiring things from outside its own power list, can a Psion be built to maximize versatility and efficiency to the point where it covers, on a level by level basis, the necessary functions an arcanist (such as a wizard) performs for a balanced party?

[Psyren]

Yes. Specifically, read post 8 in the Psion Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0), the spoilers titled "Try To Cover All The Bases" and "Selecting Powers to Fit These Roles." This will allow you to perform all the functions a primary caster is expected to cover in combat, which is generally the most dangerous time for any PC.

Once combat is taken care of, you can focus the remainder of your power selection on non-combat uses (e.g. divinations and social powers), situational techniques and flavor choices.

[Flickerdart]

A valuable thing for psions concerned about versatility is manifesting powers from a source other than his own mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). While this does not allow them to manifest non-psion powers, it does let them use powers stored in a power stone (essentially a psionic scroll) without depleting it. Buy a sack of low-level power stones with things like psionic knock works better than the wizard making scrolls of it because you can keep using it again and again.

[Psyren]

A valuable thing for psions concerned about versatility is manifesting powers from a source other than his own mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). While this does not allow them to manifest non-psion powers, it does let them use powers stored in a power stone (essentially a psionic scroll) without depleting it. Buy a sack of low-level power stones with things like psionic knock works better than the wizard making scrolls of it because you can keep using it again and again.

Note that this was another stealth-nerf in CPsi - attempting to access stones in this way flushes that power from the stone now. See the sidebar on CPsi pg. 105.

[Segev]

Note that this was another stealth-nerf in CPsi - attempting to access stones in this way flushes that power from the stone now. See the sidebar on CPsi pg. 105.

I so frequently wind up looking things up in the SRD that I did not realize this was a nerf in CPsi. It's fully written in the d20srd.org site's write-up.

This is...well, I don't know why they bothered having it be allowed at all, as it's a very long process to get a better ML and still cost pp, now.

[Psyren]

I so frequently wind up looking things up in the SRD that I did not realize this was a nerf in CPsi. It's fully written in the d20srd.org site's write-up.

This is...well, I don't know why they bothered having it be allowed at all, as it's a very long process to get a better ML and still cost pp, now.

That's the idea - doing it this second way allows you to use your own ML, ability scores and feats on the power instead of being locked into how it was stored in the item (like you would be with a scroll.) Basically it turns every power stone into a staff, that can fire off every stored power exactly once - albeit one that uses your own "spell slots."

The problem is that they kept in the terrible 1.5 round minimum cast time to use them in this way, so you end up most often wanting to use this out of combat, when it doesn't matter nearly as much.

[Urpriest]

If you think that a Sorceror can be an effective party arcanist, then even without expanding their list a Psion will be more than sufficient.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

If you think that a Sorceror can be an effective party arcanist, then even without expanding their list a Psion will be more than sufficient.

Without Ancestral Relic on a Runestaff, I actually don't think Sorcerers can be effective arcanists, but your point is still entirely correct.

[eggynack]

Without Ancestral Relic on a Runestaff, I actually don't think Sorcerers can be effective arcanists.
What is an effective arcanist? I'm not entirely sure how sorcerers would not be one.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

What is an effective arcanist? I'm not entirely sure how sorcerers would not be one.

Well, Sorcerers are effective as characters in general, but at lower levels their limited selection of spells compared to the general learn-all wizard makes it difficult if not impossible for the Sorcerer to have the versatility necessary for me to slot them as an effective arcanist. Seriously, the average game tends to put a lot of pressure on arcanists to do a lot of stuff. It is exceedingly rare for me to find Sorcerers in lead roles in 3.5-based works for this very reason, I gather.

Now, the definition of effective might be very different between you and I, and there's not much the two of us could probably do to reconcile that. But in my personal opinion, Sorcerers don't really have the spells known to fully exceed in the arcanist role at any point between levels 3-7ish, being generous. If you think Sorcerers are capable as arcanists across levels, power to you. I'm sure you have more fun during that period of time than I likely do.

[Psyren]

Well, Sorcerers are effective as characters in general, but at lower levels their limited selection of spells compared to the general learn-all wizard makes it difficult if not impossible for the Sorcerer to have the versatility necessary for me to slot them as an effective arcanist. Seriously, the average game tends to put a lot of pressure on arcanists to do a lot of stuff. It is exceedingly rare for me to find Sorcerers in lead roles in 3.5-based works for this very reason, I gather.

Now, the definition of effective might be very different between you and I, and there's not much the two of us could probably do to reconcile that. But in my personal opinion, Sorcerers don't really have the spells known to fully exceed in the arcanist role at any point between levels 3-7ish, being generous. If you think Sorcerers are capable as arcanists across levels, power to you. I'm sure you have more fun during that period of time than I likely do.

Your opinion is quite simply wrong, because both sorcerers and psions can perform just fine as the "party arcanist" at all levels.

I have a pretty clear standard for "effective" - i.e., "able to overcome CR-appropriate challenges while being the only primary casting class in the group."

[LogosDragon]

Your opinion is quite simply wrong, because both sorcerers and psions can perform just fine as the "party arcanist" at all levels.

I have a pretty clear standard for "effective" - i.e., "able to overcome CR-appropriate challenges while being the only primary casting class in the group."

Hey now, no need to be mean to him. And how does one have a "wrong" opinion anyway? I thought "right" and "wrong" could only be applied to facts. And morals, and decisions, but then again calling those things right and wrong is in itself a matter of the speaker's opinion...

Sorry, went on a bit of a tangent. Anyway, while I overall agree with you, Magi has a point. Things like, say, a race across a continent to beat the BBEG somewhere wouldn't be qualified as an encounter, but if the Sorcerer doesn't know the right spell you're done like dinner. In fact, I sort of see where he's coming from... They're generally considered the unbalanced parts of the CR system, but if you're using CR-appropriate as a standard, there are plenty of different things that a wizard could take a time out for and then deal with that the Sorcerer probably can't do anything about without gaining a level first. "sorry guys, I just got my first two 3rd level spells and Dispel Magic wasn't in the top two spots of my priority list."

... Now, that's a bad example because the party Cleric can just do it instead, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make here.

I still think Sorcerers are so far beyond adequate it's crazy, but I think Warlocks can be effective arcanists so most people don't take my opinion seriously. :smalltongue:

[Telok]

Short answer: Yes, just don't load up on too many attack powers. One attack power per four levels is fine.

Long answer: It depends on your definition of "effective arcanist."

Hmmm. Things an effective arcanist is expected to do.
Detect or divine magic loot, people, and places.
Alter the local environment to the benefit of his party both in and out of combat.
Enable the party to fight effectively against a variety of foes.
Allow the party to access some form of fast travel if they want it and it is allowed by the setting.
Cripple or destroy one or more enemies with direct action.

[Psyren]

Hey now, no need to be mean to him. And how does one have a "wrong" opinion anyway? I thought "right" and "wrong" could only be applied to facts.

I'm not being mean - his stance was simply incorrect.

Subjective opinions aren't right or wrong; however, there is indeed an objective standard for effectiveness in the game, namely the challenge rating system. Both the sorcerer and psion can, while explicitly built to fill the "primary arcanist" role in a party, meet and exceed that standard easily.

[Rubik]

Um... Psychic Reformation isn't "cheese." It's the only way psionic characters have of changing their options short of retraining and rebuilding. They don't get to swap out their powers like sorcerers, and they can't rechoose their powers like wizards, clerics, and druids. The fact that the power costs XP and a power known (whereas all the others are available for free) allows for more leeway as to what can be swapped out.

It seems like a reasonable exchange, to me.

Plus, I don't see why anyone should be forever stuck with all the build choices they made at any point, especially given how many trap options are floating around in 3.X. All of the most powerful classes in the game can change all of their most important abilities out on a daily basis. Why should everyone else be stuck with their decisions for the entirety of the rest of the game, especially since the abilities they choose from are seriously lackluster in comparison anyway?