Help with challenging the party without killing them?

[IIzak]

Okay, so I have a gigantic party, I want to create some interesting challenges for them. I don't have access to all their stats right now, but essentially they are as follows

Human Ranger 14 (W/ Wolf Animal Companion)
Half-Orc Fighter 14 (W/ Camel mount + Horseshoes of the Nightmare)
Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter (14 levels but I can't remember the split, it favors barb though)
Half-Elf Rogue/Custom (Kind of like assassin, but more spellcast-y, and I removed the alignment and killing someone requirements)
Half-Elf Swashbuckler/Rogue (Took daring outlaw and crits on like a 15-20, plus kind of the party face)
Human Ranger1/Druid 13 (W/Cheetah animal companion)
Human Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor/Custom (Gains physical boosts for melee based on wisdom bonus instead of strength, etc.) (He took leadership as well as DMM Quicken [Not persist though])
Cohort = Dwarf Artificer 12

They are decently optimized except for the cleric, who is better optimized than everyone else. For most of the people in the group, this is their first run in DnD, which is why you see the party you see, however, normally I help as best as I can and the more experienced players at the table help out as well.

I'm having some trouble challenging the party as a whole, because I find that I either make the encounters easy enough for the rest of the party to handle, or I end up killing somebody (Usually the cleric immediately helps them back up, so nobody has perma-died, but i'm not the type of guy to take pleasure in whalloping on the PC's and having a TPK every session)

Overall, I just would like some help in designing some encounters to really challenge the PC's, while not completely punishing them because one of their characters is much higher than the others. Any help the Playground could offer would be greatly appreciated.

[Socksy]

A mad wizard has successfully made undead which run off positive energy rather than negative energy. Healing heals them, they scan as [good], etc. Evil clerics turn them, good clerics bolster (rather than rebuke) them, as the wizard doesn't want anyone else to gain control of them, but they have loads of turn resistance too. Perhaps some of them steal a healing spell somehow on their AoO when the cleric tries to cast one, making a touch attack for no damage rather than trying to break their concentration.

Also, the wizard could be some kind of lich wannabe, seeking to turn himself into a (something else immortal) because he doesn't want clerics to have control over him in any way. Perhaps a portal to the positive energy plane in his lair/lab.

Basically, a healer's nightmare. They'll probably think they're outsiders if you say "Religion? No, I want Knowledge: The Planes."

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

First thing you've got to do is look at balance. Its hard to challange a party that isn't internally balanced. Namely, you've got this min-maxed to all hell cleric. Cleric alone is better than most other classes. Custom thing that gives him wisdom to melee? Huge. Leadership is the strongest feat in the game, and Artificer is one of the most broken class selections there is.

Next to this Double-Tier-1 shining paragon of minmaxery is a ranger (Tier 4), a Fighter (Tier 5), A barbarian fighter (Tier 4.5?), a Rogue (Tier 4), another rogue watered down with swashbuckler (Tier 4-5).

TBH I'd kill the cleric off and ask him to roll something with a more appropriate power level for the party, and ban leadership for players. Its okay to have strong or weak characters in a D&D party if they're all strong or weak, but a Cleric, stronger than the others even without optimization, that is so heavily optimized he's got an Artificer Cohort and DMM Quicken, does not belong in a party full of fighters, rangers and rogues.

Alternately, TPK everyone else and have them roll some combination of Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Psions, and Space Marines so its fair.

Once the party is a bit more even in what they can accomplish individually, it'll be easier to find combats that can more consistently challenge but not kill.

[ace rooster]

With a party that size 1 death is not a big loss, and any serious attempt at a TPK that does not result in at least 1 would be a fiasco. With that in mind any encounter that has opponents that are aiming to kill the PCs is out. What you need is an objective for the PCs to either secure or defend. For example, rescuing the princess from the orc camp. If you have other prisoners that the orcs will not hesitate to kill in the event of an assault, then a massive defeat for the PCs may not even mean a single PC death or orc survivor. Likewise a PC sacrificing themselves to save the VIP will be better for the player than being killed in a duel with a random ogre, especially if it results in no hostage casualties, ie a massive victory.

depending on flavor, defending the dukes china shipment from an attack by a druid and his army of bovines could be another idea.

[Metahuman1]

I am going to run counter to the rapidly establishing sentiment.


The Cleric is optimized primarily for Healing and Buffing. I know this cause he's a fragging Radiant Servant of Pelor. Artificer Cohort? That might be a problem if it's not doing gear for everyone, but if it is, it's helping a lot.

So, unless your gonna tell me I'm way off mark and the cleric isn't prioritizing his build along the lines of heal, then buff, then make gear for others to help as well as himself, then smack face, he doesn't need to die. And purposefully killing him for a balance issue that isn't properly in effect cause he's being a good team player would be a **** move.




Now, I might be wrong, if he's not being a good team player and trying to help the party, but in that case, talk to him first about spreading use of helpful resources like healing, buffing and Item Crafting before you go to cut scene executions.

[nedz]

Linear Fighter / Quadratic Wizard Cleric means that the imbalance is only going to worsen from this point onwards. I'm surprised that the Druid isn't causing issues also ?

The only real solution is to end the campaign and start a new one — I'm assuming that you've been playing this from low level ?

Killing the Cleric will likely just result in the player creating another powerful PC.

[IIzak]

The cleric is a nice guy, and mainly built this character bc we didnt have any caster/healer in the group. The druid just joined recently and shes brand new to dnd so she doesnt really get how powerful she is. Id rather not kill the cleric, i dont wna punish him for playing the game and knowing how it works. I like the positive undead idea alot actually. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The party, or someone conscripted by the party for protection, has invoked the wrath of the Infinite Planes of the Abyss, and is beset upon by a roving pack of Jovocs!

[ace rooster]

Rethinking, I would think the main thing you can do is have multiple objectives, some of which can be lost, (and ideally some will be) with the party allocating resources expecting to have to fall back in places. Then when the fighter is in trouble there is no shame in running. This works both ways, and be prepared to have legions of mooks running from the barbarian that has hacked four in two.:smallbiggrin:. The player will want to kill hundereds, but they may enjoy single handedly routing a company. player dependent.

[Metahuman1]

Rethinking, I would think the main thing you can do is have multiple objectives, some of which can be lost, (and ideally some will be) with the party allocating resources expecting to have to fall back in places. Then when the fighter is in trouble there is no shame in running. This works both ways, and be prepared to have legions of mooks running from the barbarian that has hacked four in two.:smallbiggrin:. The player will want to kill hundereds, but they may enjoy single handedly routing a company. player dependent.

Now thats a good way to solve the matter.

[(Un)Inspired]

How is that camel wearing horseshoes? If they nailed them to his toes then the Druid should go on a rampage...

[IIzak]

Its a long story on the camel but the short version is that they were specially tailored. Its kind of a running joke in our group about this one camel that they have bc before the druid came, they tried to test the deepness of quicksand by sending their camel across and they found out it was super deep. When they made it across, as a joke, i had the camel swim out on the other side like it had just swam through quicksand, and thus, camelfax was born.

[Telok]

If they face intelligent enemies who listen to rumors and tales you can start using anit-magic fields to take the edge off the cleric. Another way to tell the cleric to lighten up in combat is to have enemies start packing Reciprocal Gyre (Spell Compendium/Google) and Greater Dispel Magic.

Just give the party straight up combat brute fights that have special defenses tailored to the cleric and druid's normal "I win" spells. Notably swapping monster feats like Alertness and Weapon Focus for Martial Study in Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades will improve monster defenses a fair bit.

[broodax]

On the topic of directly challenging them - once your party gets big it's almost impossible to have any 1 enemy present a challenge because no matter how awesome the BBEG is, he can't compete with 6-8 actions.

Try:
1) Enemies that have the ability to make multiple standard actions
2) Enemies that can quickly act and retreat so that only characters immediately next to them, or with readied actions can target them at once
3) Split the party. PCs know this is a bad thing, so do it to them. Cave-ins, Magic walls, distressed maidens that are in separate rooms, etc. so an enemy needs to deal with only 3-4 PCs at once. Just make sure both groups are still getting something to do.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Trapped room, when someone gets near the center it drops a porticulls (sp?) behind them. Illusionairy wall drops reveals beholder and his pack of rust monsters. Season with humanoid archers as needed. Top with disenchanter if feeling particularly nice.

[Crake]

The only real solution is to end the campaign and start a new one — I'm assuming that you've been playing this from low level ?

In before starting at this level.