Please help me build a "roguish" character!

[Shin]

Hey there,

I'm currently trying to build a new character to replace my druid.
Your help would be much appreciated! (as I'm out of ideas)

I'll list all relevant info so you get a bit of input - but feel free to ask if I forgot some relevant info, please.
I did read many books (from Player's Handbook to Dragon Magazine), many handbooks, many forum threads, and so on)

What is and isn't allowed:
- basically, any 3.5 books (books from alternative settings (eberron, faerun,...) and stuff like dragon magazines included, DM will take a look at the finished build and decide if something isn't allowed)
- multiclassing xp penalty gets houseruled away if the combined base classes "fit each other" (so, no fighter/wizard gish, for example)
- the group is a colorful mix - incantatrix wizard, another druid, cleric, intimidate rogue, centaur archer/two-handed two-weapon fighter,...
- no evil characters
- we are currently level 9
- DM houseruled away crafting xp costs (lol...consider this when giving me tips, if you like, but I'd rather not like to craft)
- erm... any further questions?
- forgot: LA buyoff allowed

What I'd like to play:
- a roguish character (considered rogue/scout/swordsage/TFS/nightsong enforcer/any tier 2 prcs that give more sneak attack dice,... so far)
- don't want to have any spellcasting (<- the reason why I did stop being a druid in the first place), rather don't want to be a psion as well
- I'd like to be a damage dealer as well as have many skillpoints (which skills do I want to put points in? I'm geared to the rogue handbook)
- I'd rather stick with sneak attacking / twf if I got the chance to, but I'll listen to different suggestions
- I have to admit...new to ToB. swordsage? ohmygosh so complicated, isn't to my liking so far, and I ended up thinking about doing the same things in every round in every encounter if I played one
- i want to be viable in combat/social (see my group above)
- forgot about that: I'd die to play a catfolk

What I'd like to know:
- how can a swordsage do more damage than a full sneak attack progressed rogue? and how does he get more survivability, aside from the "do concentration check instead of save" maneuvers?
- how is the telflammar shadowlord >not< a major trap!? it really starts to bug me. requires you to have the useless spring attack combat style? gives you a gem for two-weapon fighting then!? wtf? is it just broken in the same way invisible blade is?
- how could one ever afford the four rather useless TFS feats as an already feat starved two-weapon fighter?
- what I wanted to know since ages: what entry/base class is the shadowlord in fact designed for? because I only see scout>swordsage>anything else (that doesn't synergize that well with the TFS class abilities, like, you know, rogue)

Any suggestions/build advice for building my non-spellcaster roguish character are much appreciated!

[hemming]

Check out the swift hunter - loads of skill point, BAB, skirmish damage.

http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html

[ScrambledBrains]

This is probably going to be swordsaged(Which will be ironic. :smallbiggrin:), but as a guy who loves the Swordsage, I will talk about them compared to the Rogue(Which I also love).

First Point: You will not have as many skill points as a Rogue, or as many skills. That is just a fact. That said, Swordsages have most of the major skills that a lightly-armored, 'Roguish' character needs(Aside: I'd ask your DM if you can add Spot to their skill list, since most consider it not being on their skill list an oversight on the part of the designers.).

Second Point: Swordsages cannot do the Rogue's find and disable traps or open lock moves. Again, just a fact.

Third Point: However, when it comes to damage? Oh, a Swordsage can more than compete with a Rogue. There are plenty of ways, most melee but some ranged that give the Swordsage enough damage to stay competitive as they level up. I'm going to start by mentioning my favorite maneuver, Time Stands Still. Granted, it's a level nine Maneuver, so only usable at high levels, but if you're going TWF? You'll get tons of attacks with it, and do plenty of damage, assuming your to-hit is sufficient. And that's not even touching all the great maneuvers in Tiger Claw for TWF. I recommend(Again, high level) Swooping Dragon Strike, since jacking up a Skill Check is easy as pie.

I have more suggestions, but I'm gonna post this now, so I'm hopefully not swordsaged like I fear. :smallsmile: If you want more Swordsage advice, I'd be happy to help.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can use an assassin-type class but remove the evil alignment and special prerequisites in exchange for removing the death attack and possibly poison use, consider something like Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) for the Mind Cripple ability. That deals 2 Int damage per sneak attack, so a single full attack can outright disable most opponents regardless of how much hp damage you deal or how much hp they have. Against Int-based casters it's probably going to shut down all but their lowest-level spells in a single full attack.

My favorite build for that is Spellthief 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9, but if you want more sneak attack and less Psion you could instead go Spellthief 1/ Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) + Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 3/ Psion 1/ Psychic Assassin 10/ (any PrC that gives 3d6 sneak attack in 5 levels) 5. That gets you 3d6 at 5th level, 7d6 at 15th level with Mind Cripple, and 10d6 at 20th level. A Spellthief dip allows you to use wands of spells from certain Wizard schools, namely a Wand of Wraithstrike in a Wand Chamber of a weapon. In any case use Practiced Manifester to qualify for Psychic Assassin. Psicrystal Affinity plus using Share Pain on it to take half damage from all sources (and its Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain) plus sharing Vigor with it plus giving it a Healing Belt so it can heal you is a splendid trick that will allow you to hold your own in melee. Note that none of those get an XP penalty if you can get either class in the first, or Psion or Fighter in the second, as a favored class.

[Shin]

Thank you for the quick replies so far!
My answer is based on the fact that maybe I still don't see some things, as I'm still new to D&D/3.5.

I did check the swift ambusher handbook, but when I did compare scout to rogue and did think about a scout/TFS build, I couldn't see how the scout keeps up with the rogue's damage progression. The rogue, if built towards two-weapon fighting, seems to get more attacks per round, more extra damage dice, and craven. Maybe I just don't see the trick?

I tried to build a proper swordsage as well, but as stated in the first post, I ended up trying to build a few "standard" turns. I wasn't quite able to work with the versatility the swordsage gives.
Can the swordsage really keep up to sneak attack with his greater number of average attacks/turn?
If I decide to play swordsage, I'd of course appreciate your help.

edit: I of course could use the avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).
The psychic assassin option sounds fun, I'll go check about it.

[Nihilarian]

Swift Hunter or Swordsage are probably the best choice.

The Swift Hunter can bypass immunities to Sneak Attack, and triggers easier than sneak attack. The handbook gives tips on getting full attacks.

[hemming]

With the swift hunter, you can skirmish (nearly) every round. With a rogue it is much more difficult to consistently get sneak attack damage in

For a TWF style, the ranger class gives you a leg up on feats when you choose your combat style

But, it sounds like its just not what you had in mind for your character

[Jane_Smith]

Technically, you only need swordsage up to a point where you can get the feat "Shadowblade" to add Dex to damage with finessable weapons. From that point on, swordsage is unnecessary.

Id also like to suggest a single level dip in barbarian. I know, i know, sounds weird/fishy, but, 1/day rage, +10 foot move speed (which also gives +4 to jump checks), d12 hit dice, good fort saves, good bab. The rage alone will help you overcome damage reduction and fight tougher opponents in those 'do or die' kinda fights. Also - you can take unearthed arcana's barbarian variant, i believe its called the whirling something? It gives +str and +dex when raging and an extra attack when you full attack, which combined with shadowblade is essentially giving you double the damage a hit. Could be wrong, its been a while sense I have read over it.

Also remember the feat "Staggering Strike" - if you apply sneak attack damage to an enemy, they get staggered for 1 round. Staggered is, by far, the rarest and hardest to remove condition in the game almost, and outright takes half of the targets turn away from them. Ripping a fighter/barbarian/dragons full attack away from them by dealing at least 1 sneak damage? Kthanx, yes please!


Edit: I doubt your dm will allow this feat, but, there is a single feat that can make a surprise attack unbelievably lethal.

In the RPG setting "a game of thrones", for 3.5, they published a feat called "Fire and Blood". It gives the following;

"On any round in which you sustain an injury from a melee combat attack, you may may enter a state of cold, calculating anger. When angry, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls when making a melee attack against anyone who has injured you, and you can make an additional attack each round against them at your full attack bonus. Any attacks you make while angered against a character who has not injured you are at a -2 penalty on attackand damage rolls. Your state of anger ends as soon as all those who have injured you are dead or no longer in sight. You may enter this state a number of times per day equal to 1 + your wis modifier (minimum 1)."

Combined with the unearthed arcana barbarian variant, and the shadowblade feat, the amount of punishment you can dish out would be legendary - especially if you got the Split Strike enchantment on your weapon, so each attack doubled freely. Go catfolk with pounce feat just for the added terror of a raging full attack sneak attack charge. >_> Catfolk got all the stats a rogue, and barbarian love to boot!

[Nihilarian]

Why don't you like telflammar shadowlord? Did you not read Shadow Pounce?

[Shin]

But, it sounds like its just not what you had in mind for your character

I wouldn't say that. Right now I'm reading through the handbook.


In the RPG setting "a game of thrones", for 3.5, they published a feat called "Fire and Blood".

Is is an official book?


Why don't you like telflammar shadowlord? Did you not read Shadow Pounce?

Oh, I like shadow pounce a lot. I also love that amazing shadow discorporation. But right now, I just came to the conclusion that the TFS doesn't work with rogue as well as it would, for example, with scout - and the requirements just kill it for my considered TWF build. Plus, I don't see why I should ever put up with that stupid feat chain. Were the requirements really intended? (as said, it strongly reminded me of the invisible blade's archery feat prereqs)

[ace rooster]

martial sorceror/arcane trickster - specialising in enchantment

all your thinking is done at level up, then you have one or two combat spells, and can charm people or throw around an illusion. slightly reduced sneak attack, but with good spell choice they can be touch attacks. Not highly op, and spellcaster, but decent RP opening and easy to play.

[hemming]

I wouldn't say that. Right now I'm reading through the handbook.


I was trying not to be pushy...but the TWF thrown weapon swift hunter is a personal fav :smallsmile:

[Nihilarian]

I wouldn't say that. Right now I'm reading through the handbook.



Is is an official book?



Oh, I like shadow pounce a lot. I also love that amazing shadow discorporation. But right now, I just came to the conclusion that the TFS doesn't work with rogue as well as it would, for example, with scout - and the requirements just kill it for my considered TWF build. Plus, I don't see why I should ever put up with that stupid feat chain. Were the requirements really intended? (as said, it strongly reminded me of the invisible blade's archery feat prereqs)Any character that can meet the requirements without gimping themselves is going to get something great from it - Shadow Pounce. It's certainly not a trap.

To make the most of it you want to be able to teleport as much as possible.

It should be noted that you can also get Shadow Pounce with the Crinti Shadow Marauder, which has a lot easier prerequisites.

[Shin]

I was trying not to be pushy...but the TWF thrown weapon swift hunter is a personal fav :smallsmile:

Don't worry, I didn't consider it as pushy :smallwink:
Right now I check the suggestions, but I have to say, the arcane trickster doesn't appeal to me, sorry @ ace. I'm through with spellcasting :smalltongue:

Well, I...was about gimping myself with TFS. Especially as a non-human with the twf feat chain + weapon finesse / shadow blade, I really don't know where to get the needed bonus feats from (a 2 lvl dip into fighter won't do it). That would be one of the advantages of scout+TFS I guess.

Plus, I start to dislike the idea of breaking the action economy and teleporting too much. My group hated it when I recently tried a rogue/blink shirt totemist :smallbiggrin: (first time we played I was this guy, and after that evening, I built the druid)

[ace rooster]

well if spellcasting is completely out I would throw my wieght behind a swift hunter build, with the specifics party dependent. If you are beside a rogue, they will love you. They ready an attack for when they get a flank, and you provide it. Dodge-mobility are suddenly looking like decent feats. Specifics for me would be built around the "please the DM/party" feat. If the DM and party like you, you will generally survive.

[Gavinfoxx]

When someone wants to play a Rogue, I usually point them at Psychic Rogue or Factotum. What do you think of those options?

[Zetapup]

Id also like to suggest a single level dip in barbarian. I know, i know, sounds weird/fishy, but, 1/day rage, +10 foot move speed (which also gives +4 to jump checks), d12 hit dice, good fort saves, good bab. The rage alone will help you overcome damage reduction and fight tougher opponents in those 'do or die' kinda fights. Also - you can take unearthed arcana's barbarian variant, i believe its called the whirling something? It gives +str and +dex when raging and an extra attack when you full attack, which combined with shadowblade is essentially giving you double the damage a hit. Could be wrong, its been a while sense I have read over it.

Yup, it's whirling frenzy. It might be a bit challenging to avoid multiclassing penalties unless you can somehow justify the dip into barbarian- maybe an upbringing in the wild lands/something similar? One thing that's suggested a lot when dipping barbarian is to swap the +10ft speed for lion spirit totem- it's one of the easiest ways to get pounce.

I'll second the idea for factotum. Make sure to grab Font of Inspiration as many times as your int mod allows for. Note that Factotum's Inspiration ability is vague about whether inspiration points go away at the end of an encounter or not. By RAW, it seems that you gain inspiration points at the beginning of an encounter and still retain them afterwards (example: Bob is a 1st level factotum. He goes into a encounter and gains 2 inspiration points. He ends up spending one inspiration point. Encounter is over, and 15 minutes later he has another encounter. He gains 2 inspiration points and still has 1 left over from the last encounter, so he has 3 ip. This can be (ab)used by having a bunch of encounters with low cr opponents and using the gained ip to dominate a later more difficult opponent).

They do have some spellcasting abilities, but it's definitely not their focus. 8th level is the sweet spot for them, as it's when they get cunning surge, an ability which lets them spend some ip for more standard actions. Factotums are from dungeonscape, by the way.

[Shin]

Honestly, I don't think that the DM would allow roguish barbarian or something similar. Rogues have craven and are the opposite of raging barbarians :smallbiggrin:

Factotum indeed is an interesting choice, but I definitely would have to think about what to do with that spellcasting. With font of inspiration as many times as possible and not much left for other feats, should I rather spend the day power attacking things to death?

[NotAnAardvark]

Factotum indeed is an interesting choice, but I definitely would have to think about what to do with that spellcasting. What role does one normally build factotum for? melee? spellcaster? hybrid?

The brilliant thing is you can build them in a lot of odd variations.

Traditionally Inspiration isn't reliable enough to make yourself a proper spellcaster and they're certainly not frontline types. They're skillmonkies first and foremost and usually their spellcasting is going to be applied in an ancillary fashion.

Most Factotums I see are basically played as rogues who are better at everything a rogue wants to do and can augment their Rogue+1 nature with support spells. I've even seen a few refluff their magic as gadgetry.

The Factotum sneak attack isn't very good though, sadly.

[Nihilarian]

Factotum has a few ways to get very good at fighting. There's a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272130) that may help.

You could also multiclassing. Factotum 8/Warblade or Swordsage 12 would be fun, and good in or out of combat.

[Gavinfoxx]

I know you said you didn't want a caster... but consider what a Cloistered Cleric can do as a Rogue:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

[Shin]

Cloistered Cleric is an awesome option, but I still have to say no to spellcasting, sorry.

I guess I'll give factotum/warblade a try, as it seems to be a rather strong option and give me the right stuff.

Thank you for your advice and suggestions!