Is Farmland Good Treasure?

[HMS Invincible]

I'm trying to maintain WBl for a party of five level 3 PCs, and I noticed that I had miscalculated, stupid tables are designed for 4 PCs-not 5. They were at a farm when I figured it out, so I decided to give them the farm because
1. a player made an attempt to claim it,
2. They were behind in how much treasure they needed.

I did some quick math, and ended up assuming:
1. PCs were below the WBL table by 10,000 gold
2. Farm contains 8 silos, each filled with 10 tons of corn, totaling 80 tons
3. 1 lb of wheat = 1 lb. of corn = 1 cp, x 80 tons = 1,600 gold.
4. 80 tons of corn equates to about 17 acres of farmland, valued at 8400gp.

So I pretty much made up some corn amounts based on my initial description of the land, and put it down as treasure to be sold into gold. The land is valued at 10,000 - the value of corn just to have a round number. Question is, how useful is 17 acres of farmland? The corn can obviously be sold or converted then sold, but farmland is much trickier. Is this good loot? Or should I give them something else?

[herrhauptmann]

Not really.
If it were, farmers in the game would be rich, rather than poor.

The deed to a functioning mine would be a good bit of treasure. Not because they can sell the mine, but because they can get a steady stream of income from it. How much depends on you. Say, enough to offset messed up WBL tables.
It can also be used to get them raw materials like mithril and adamant.

Further it can be a plot hook. Gotta protect it. And the there's bandits raiding the wagons...

[icefractal]

Although if the farm is question is growing something especially valuable, it could bring in a fairly significant income. As far as loot - if they sell it, then it would count as however much gold they got for it.

If they keep it and use it as a base of operations, or even rent it out, then I wouldn't count it against their WBL - income that trickles in that slowly won't be significant, unless your game has a significantly slower pace than typical. However, I'm in favor of giving them something like that - it's a built-in source of plot hooks, for one thing.

So - TL;DR - count the corn they sell as WBL, count the farm as WBL only if they sell it, otherwise give them something else as well.

[HMS Invincible]

Bah, I was afraid of this. So if you give someone property, and they turn it into a base of operations then it's not part of WBL?

It's nothing special on the farm, just corn rows, + fertilizer + superstition = satanic farm. Why would valuable crops matter over basic crops? 10,000 gold in corn is the same value as 10,000 gold in tobacco. The farm would just be much smaller.

Edit: IIRC, a harvest would fill the silos again, so every harvest would bring in roughly 1600 gp a year. If they kept the farm for a couple years, they could earn 1600 gold minus operating expenses and then sell the land x harvests later.

[Phelix-Mu]

The farmland itself won't keep up with treasure values for very long. The nature of WBL is that being an adventurer quickly outpaces the earning power of any normal job in-setting by leaps and bounds (assuming your characters don't wait years in between missions).

So, maybe it's plot treasure, and not gp treasure. Have this plot of land somehow attached to the bigger plot, the BBEG, some ancient battle or tragedy, or somehow vital in some upcoming conflict. Maybe have it be part of a subplot, and the party only notices its significance if they do x or y.

Maybe make it part of a magical location. I think the rules for those are in...DMG2 and some other book?

[Honest Tiefling]

Just how large is this farm to have 10,000 in assets? Screw adventuring, I'm going to farm.

I wouldn't count it either way, as it doesn't help them overcome monsters which is what the WBL is concerned with. They seem to want it and dangle a plothook in front of them to defend/secure it and see how it goes and to see if this is a good direction for the campaign.

[Phelix-Mu]

Maybe it just looks like corn. Rules for addictive drugs can be found in BoVD, and, as long as it wasn't terribly, hideously exploitative, they could probably even sell mild narcotics non-illegally (like snuff), though less profitably.

If the party isn't into drug trafficking, then maybe they will be interested in tracking down a network of evil drug distributors that are helping fund a cult of demon-worshipers in the capital.

Or something. I'm sure there is an idea out there somewhere that will make this seem less like an oversight on the part of the DM. Heck, that is half of my strategy as DM; making all my screw-ups look like well-laid plans.

[HMS Invincible]

Just how large is this farm to have 10,000 in assets? Screw adventuring, I'm going to farm.

I wouldn't count it either way, as it doesn't help them overcome monsters which is what the WBL is concerned with. They seem to want it and dangle a plothook in front of them to defend/secure it and see how it goes and to see if this is a good direction for the campaign.

17 acres yields 80 tons of corn, which sells for 1cp per pound. Since this corn was grown by others, and they claimed it, they net all the profit with no expenses except for their battle/travel. A 10,000 gold harvest is attainable with a 103 acre farm, or 103 football fields sized area. You can further enhance yield by employing fertilizer, say by sacrificing hundreds of captives on top of the corn. I have a backup plot if things go badly, Vampire corn. Don't laugh, it's from the sunless citadel. Vampire died here and his evil spirit grew into the vegetation, and it 'demands' sacrifice in exchange for enhanced crop yields in a famine stricken area.
While I did not use or assume any dark magic; I did give hints that something was amiss, and the PCs did find the bodies, ceremonially stuffed with corn. It wouldn't be a far stretch to take this "blunder" into a "Why this was my devious plot all along". These guys are paranoid bastards, so half my plots come from me entertaining their fantasies, at least their in character ones.

[ace rooster]

The value of farmland is dependant on how profitable it is and how safe it is. Who would buy it for that value is vary different. This is why farms cross generations IRL. If you want to hide the fact this value is non liquidable then using it as a plot hook is fun.

The farm is attacked by a raiding party of orcs. This is typical of farms over a wide area recently, because the orcs are being driven from their territory by a dragon. Throw a heal check to see the invaders are starving for good measure and you have a plot hook.

[Honest Tiefling]

As a question, how much land did a peasant have, versus a lord with a manor? I think this might fall into the latter, which could cause problems if relatives of the noble or the nobility itself try to claim the land. Perhaps cleansing it (or using it, never know) could propel the party into minor nobility.

[LibraryOgre]

Farmland is valuable and of great use. 17 acres, though, is only about half a virgate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgate), and so only about an 8th of a hide, which was what was considered necessary to support a household. Meaning this small farm isn't terribly useful.

However, I say give it to them. Have them look into hiring someone to work the land, and maintain or build the farmhouse. Let it serve as the anchor for their future growth, and a place for them to rest and work.

[SinsI]

I'd try to replace Corn (completely useless for adventurers, at least in such amounts) with farm animals - preferably Horses.

[Brookshw]

Depends. If the players want to keep moving around and will just sell the land, sure. If they want to hang out and start becoming influential members of a community, sure. If they'd be stuck with the land but want to move on, Nah. I'd say look at the group, what they would do with it, and if they'd be glad to have it.

[Red Fel]

The key issue of valuing land is considering the cost of work to improve/maintain/operate it versus the profitability of said land. With keeps, fortresses, and similar outposts, that value is clear - you have a usable stronghold and storage space, a place to safely rest your head and store your loot. You have a base of operations. Similarly, a hamlet or city offers you a bunch of loyal townspeople, perhaps tax revenue, and discounts at the local stores and taverns.

Unlike a fortress, which gives you protection, or a town, which gives you revenue, a farm merely offers you an opportunity. And that opportunity is this: If you will stay in one place, work from dawn until dusk, abstain from fighting monsters and saving the world, and do so for the entire season, you may make some money at market. It won't be a lot, as others mentioned, or else farmers would be richer than adventurers.

It's a bum rap.

Now, if you got the farm and the farmers as loyal servants - in essence, if you owned the land and they worked it - that would be a different issue. In exchange for your protection, you get revenue from the farmers. That's a good deal. Alternatively, if you got the land on which the farm was built, to do with as you wanted, you could erect a fortress or found a town - and then we're back into the realm of utility.

But an adventurer, someone who travels the world, has no use for a property that only profits you while you remain there and operate it. It would be like giving the PCs a mill, or a factory, or a lumber yard or quarry. Your only profit would come from renting the place out to someone who would actually use it.

Adventuring is supposed to be more profitable than most mundane professions. Otherwise, why risk your life raiding the dragon's hoard? Staying behind to work the farm will not benefit the party.* I'd advise finding another way to bring WBL back up.

* Note: It is, however, an excellent opportunity if one of your players is seeking to retire his character. Retire the character, have him become an NPC working the farm. You now have a safe place for the adventurers to stow their excess loot, rest for the night, and grab some supplies for the road. And you know it's safe, because the farmer used to be an adventurer, and if trouble comes along, he will murder the crap out of it.

[Marnath]

Just how large is this farm to have 10,000 in assets? Screw adventuring, I'm going to farm.

I wouldn't count it either way, as it doesn't help them overcome monsters which is what the WBL is concerned with. They seem to want it and dangle a plothook in front of them to defend/secure it and see how it goes and to see if this is a good direction for the campaign.

It sounds great until you realize you need to invest all of that 10,000 and possibly more back into the farm if you want to grow anything next time. That's how farming works, you have a huge amount of capital that goes into just barely making a profit, maybe, but probably you take a loss. In real life between the land and all the equipment you have several million dollars of assets even before you take out a loan to afford the seed and fertilizer etc. etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sell the farm, their wealth just increased by 5000 or whatever.

[Phelix-Mu]

It sounds great until you realize you need to invest all of that 10,000 and possibly more back into the farm if you want to grow anything next time. That's how farming works, you have a huge amount of capital that goes into just barely making a profit, maybe, but probably you take a loss. In real life between the land and all the equipment you have several million dollars of assets even before you take out a loan to afford the seed and fertilizer etc. etc.

All true, but historically, few farmers farmed for profit. Most of them were part of some power structure designed to feed cities or other population centers (or armies), or they traded locally with other farmers to make a modest living providing food for themselves and the other locals. Or subsistence farming.

It is basically the opposite of everything glamorous, but the backbone of human civilization nevertheless. Whether or not quasi-magical society in a fantasy world would actually have these kind of communities is a different debate.

Personally, if it were my character in the group, I'd keep it and place some trusted compatriots/npcs/hirelings there to work the land. Most campaigns can come up with a family or two of the dispossessed or refugees or the like. Land holdings are cheap by adventurer standards, but early in the campaign (and 3rd is early), they can be hard to come by and a useful resource, as noted by others.

[icefractal]

Bah, I was afraid of this. So if you give someone property, and they turn it into a base of operations then it's not part of WBL? As far as balance is concerned, WBL really means "magic items by level", and to a lesser extent "mercenaries by level". For example, if a 10th level character had 1 million gp, but couldn't buy any magic items with it, they would be less powerful than normal, despite their high nominal wealth.

So - if you give them a farm, they sell it, and buy magic stuff with the proceeds, then that counts toward WBL. If they keep the farm and use it as a base, or give it to someone as a gift, then it's not really part of WBL.

That said, I'm in favor of giving players bases / property / things to get invested in. It can lead to a lot of interesting adventures about defending it, expanding/improving it, getting involved in political affairs, etc. It just fulfills a different purpose than personal magic items, so you wouldn't count it as part of the same pool.

[Alefiend]

All true, but historically, few farmers farmed for profit. Most of them were part of some power structure designed to feed cities or other population centers (or armies), or they traded locally with other farmers to make a modest living providing food for themselves and the other locals. Or subsistence farming.

It is basically the opposite of everything glamorous, but the backbone of human civilization nevertheless. Whether or not quasi-magical society in a fantasy world would actually have these kind of communities is a different debate.

Personally, if it were my character in the group, I'd keep it and place some trusted compatriots/npcs/hirelings there to work the land. Most campaigns can come up with a family or two of the dispossessed or refugees or the like. Land holdings are cheap by adventurer standards, but early in the campaign (and 3rd is early), they can be hard to come by and a useful resource, as noted by others.

Definitely this, especially if it's a big farm—1600 acres or so makes for a nice demesne.

[Sith_Happens]

If you do want the party to have their cake and eat it too (i.e.- keep the farm for possible plot/RP purposes and still immediately reap a respectable sum of liquid assets from it), you could always have them discover that There's Gold in Them HillsTM.

[Gray Mage]

Can't you just give them a little more treasure next time? It's not like wbl needs to be strictly enforced and if you only noticed now it probably means it wasn't making too much difference and they can wait a bit longer.

[MadGreenSon]

There are always way to get money/items/drugs/whatever into the PCs hands. Giving the land on the other hand can be like giving them an Adventure Hook Mine.
Keeping and holding territory is a challenge if there is anything worthwhile on the land, and if not, I've had some great times in games establishing our own keep/castle/fortress of doom to operate out of.

Instead of using it to keep up with a fairly useless benchmark. Use the land to make more plot and stuff.

If you want the PCs to have more gold and loot, just throw some monsters or whatever at them that they can beat like a collection of begging, pleading, cussing and bleeding pinatas 'till the candy comes out.

[Ravens_cry]

Really depends on the adventure and adventurers. I know characters and campaigns where I would be thrilled to receive such a reward, and other places and characters to whom it would be a poor consolation prize.

[watchwood]

17 acres yields 80 tons of corn, which sells for 1cp per pound. Since this corn was grown by others, and they claimed it, they net all the profit with no expenses except for their battle/travel. A 10,000 gold harvest is attainable with a 103 acre farm, or 103 football fields sized area. You can further enhance yield by employing fertilizer, say by sacrificing hundreds of captives on top of the corn. I have a backup plot if things go badly, Vampire corn. Don't laugh, it's from the sunless citadel. Vampire died here and his evil spirit grew into the vegetation, and it 'demands' sacrifice in exchange for enhanced crop yields in a famine stricken area.
While I did not use or assume any dark magic; I did give hints that something was amiss, and the PCs did find the bodies, ceremonially stuffed with corn. It wouldn't be a far stretch to take this "blunder" into a "Why this was my devious plot all along". These guys are paranoid bastards, so half my plots come from me entertaining their fantasies, at least their in character ones.

The problem with this is harvesting 103 acres of corn. Without access to modern farming equipment, it'd take a ton of manpower.

Take a look at Pathfinder's Downtime rules. It has a few blurbs on farming that you could use as a baseline for establishing income over time for the farm.

[Telok]

My immediate instinct is to gift the land (it's good land) to a local lord or town. This gets you into the 'important people doing favors for you' economy.

Do note that the land could come with hunting, wood cutting, or grazing rights attached to it. These wouldn't be on the farmland itself but in a neighboring forest or plain.

[HMS Invincible]

Based on what's posted, consensus points to:
Corn sold + amount of land liqudated= WBL, corn or land kept does not count to WBL.

I thought I was being clever when I combined PC who wanted the land, and make up for missing loot that wasn't more random assortments of metal coins. =\
Thinking up creative treasure is hard. I gave a PC, who had a pirate theme, a fricking boat (treasure map and all), and he just left it on the sandbar where he found it after looting it. Sometimes, I wonder why I even try. =(

Edit: Good idea on gifting instead of selling. I hadn't considered that option.

[MadGreenSon]

Sometimes, I wonder why I even try. =(


There must be some pattern to the stuff they want/grab as opposed to walking away from. You have one PC who apparently wants to be a landholder of some sort. What do the rest go for?

Better than railroading: drag them around by their greed.:smallbiggrin:

[QuackParker]

I actually played a cleric in a campaign once who basically spent his entire fortune acquiring land to build opulent churches to his forgotten god. Arandithius Celestium would have taken farmland over gold every single time!

[Drachasor]

Land, castles, forts, and homes are good for adventure hooks. They are also a good way to spend excess wealth so that WBL is maintained. It's fun to have a fortress or two or an interplanar crossroads. Doesn't change the game balance at all, but it is cool.

Spaceships are similar.

[Windstorm]

Kind of funny, I was reading this thread earlier and now after today's game session my DM handed us land and title to an abandoned mausoleum we just cleared out.

personally I think its great, because depending on the site there is a lot a group of players can do with a tract of land. in our case we discussed building a stronghold on it (poking the stronghold builder's guide and other stuff maybe). or in the case of a farm you can hire a bunch of labor and use it as a passive party income source. if the land has location value, find a noble or a mercenary band that needs a base point, and cash out.

In the case of casters like my wizard, there are some things that are more easily done in a fixed location, and having a known safe place to teleport is good if you get into an encounter way over your heads. fixed locations also open up fun things like craft rune circle and the sites of power rules.

end of the day it really depends on the imagination of your party.

[MadGreenSon]

Land, castles, forts, and homes are good for adventure hooks. They are also a good way to spend excess wealth so that WBL is maintained. It's fun to have a fortress or two or an interplanar crossroads. Doesn't change the game balance at all, but it is cool.

Spaceships are similar.

Now I want to break out my old Spelljammer stuff. Maybe I'll just have the Neogi invade from outer space in my game in a fit of nostalgia...

Either way, back on topic! Another angle to use would be that acquiring this land could be the seed of larger political and socially motivated adventures and quests as the PC(s) start becoming important figures in the area (landholders are important people, they control where food and resources come from). After all, if the PC wanted land, when he gets it, he may want more land!

Also, reading about all that corn makes me think that they could make one freakin' HUGE run of whiskey.:smallsmile:

[Drachasor]

If the PCs do just want to do fun stuff with their land, make sure you talk to them about it. Let them be as creative as they want and let them know they can do so with only one caveat; they can't let it break their WBL. If they fall low again, let them know they can use X gold of their "land wealth/income" for buying/making magical items.

Yeah, this is an artificial restriction, but it keeps the game more reasonable and lets players have have fun being creative. This can be extremely helpful for a group if one of the players tends to optimize much better than the others -- it gives that player an outlet for their optimization.

[Sith_Happens]

Thinking up creative treasure is hard. I gave a PC, who had a pirate theme, a fricking boat (treasure map and all), and he just left it on the sandbar where he found it after looting it. Sometimes, I wonder why I even try. =(

If you want to be mean about it, just because he abandoned the loot doesn't mean it doesn't count.:smallamused:

[Yahzi]

17 acres yields 80 tons of corn
Are you using modern figures? Because modern farming essentially converts machinery and barrels of oil into crops.

Medieval farming yields more like 6 tons of grain from your 17 acres, and that's only if you farm it every other year. A peasant needs around 40 acres or so to support a small family.

[HMS Invincible]

Are you using modern figures? Because modern farming essentially converts machinery and barrels of oil into crops.

Medieval farming yields more like 6 tons of grain from your 17 acres, and that's only if you farm it every other year. A peasant needs around 40 acres or so to support a small family.

Yes, I substituted ritual sacrifice for barrels of oil, and minor magic for machinery. I think there was a corn elemental harvesting the corn, and the ritual sacrifice fertilizes the land.
Edit: This is a post-hoc explanation to maintain the illusion that I know what I'm doing to the PCs.

I got some...colorful PCs to say the least. I have a wannabee swashbuckler/swordsage (semi optimized)pirate, a cavalier from pathfinder aiming to reunite his army/unit, a (semi-optimized)crusader dwarf who is a stereotypical dwarf, a (Newb)stereotypical cleric dwarf, and a chaotic "neutral" (semi-optimized)wizard with a dark upbringing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, I substituted ritual sacrifice for barrels of oil, and minor magic for machinery. I think there was a corn elemental harvesting the corn, and the ritual sacrifice fertilizes the land.
Edit: This is a post-hoc explanation to maintain the illusion that I know what I'm doing to the PCs.

I got some...colorful PCs to say the least. I have a wannabee swashbuckler pirate, a cavalier from pathfinder aiming to reunite his army/unit, a crusader dwarf who is a stereotypical dwarf, a stereotypical cleric dwarf, and a chaotic "neutral" wizard with a dark upbringing.

Well, if you want to do a whole magitech-industrial society, you should read my handbook..

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[ericgrau]

It depends how well fleshed out your world is. At minimum it can provide a steady source of low income. Remember you also have to pay for the people who tend it, there can be bad seasons and failed crops, and old farming wasn't as effective as it is now. I'd figure out how many people needed to tend an old field and say you charge each one 1-3 copper a week in rent in exchange for land and protection from invaders. I doubt they can afford more than that with farming profits. Or more likely the players will want to sell the land on the spot for faster cash, because they can make more money with magic items and adventuring.

At most it can do a bit more. If you have trade and politics figured out in your world, protecting it could be a plot point. This could get interesting. Part of the land could be used to build a keep or used in other PC ventures. Then it could get fun. If your world isn't that well fleshed out, or maybe even if it is, your players are probably best off selling the land.

Magic may seem more convenient for the rich, lazy and well off PCs, but peasant labor tends to be cheaper and more feasible for accomplishing large scale tasks like farming. There have been 1,000 threads where people say stuff like "just build it out of walls of stone" or some such, but when you sit down and figure out how many spells it would take, it might take years. Copper a day labor tends to be the way to go. Not that a magictech world isn't cool. You only need to make magic cheaper and have 100 times as many casters to buy services from.

[Coidzor]

Land and titles generally should not be given out as loot, per se, since the acquisition of land should always be plot relevant, even if it's only the PC's personal downtime subplot of making the best damn tavern in town or what have you.

[HMS Invincible]

Update from aftermath of session:
PCs defeated all the goblins defending farm. PCs have choice of pushing forward to meet goblin army, waiting in place for human militia, or retreating to human militia. They opt to stay to maintain their claim on the land. Battle happens, PCs + militia win.

PCs promptly try to sell land + corn after militia expresses interest. After some haggling, PCs settle on 13,600 gp, which is only paid after a PC unintentionally extorts 3 grand out of the militia commander. Metagaming, I gave it to them in platinum pieces since they are traveling and it is lighter, they promptly think the commander is corrupt and evil.

After PCs sell demon land with extortion, they decide to never return to the town and vanish into the mountains because they realize how big an offense they just committed.. That sorta derails my plot since it leaves me with few established plot levers other than the goblin remnants.

Since they prefer hunting down the last of the goblins, I'll have to develop them more so that rule of numbers starts coming into effect. There's only 5 of them left, so be definition, they are the strongest. Stupid PCs ignoring my precious plots. How will they realize the consequences of their actions without being nearby to witness them? Now I have do the lame thing of hiring bounty hunters to show they did something wrong.

[MadGreenSon]

Hey, if they ignored plot stuff that was happening and ran off to fight the goblins that natural selection implies are the most badass of the bunch...

Let the plot stuff happen without them and then let them deal with the aftermath.

When I set things in motion for a game, it does not happen in a vacuum. If the players pick up on some, but not all evil plans, some evil plans are gonna succeed.

They kinda hate me for that.:smallbiggrin: