If you could ban divination...

[BornValyrian]

Would you? And why?

Just a thought I had a few days ago. I would depending on the character concept, but I'm very much about concept and building into that.

So what do you guys think?

[Invader]

I would because while I know how powerful everyone says it can be it rarely gets used in the games we play.

[eggynack]

No. It's definitely more important than enchantment, evocation, and necromancy, and probably about even with illusion, I'd suspect. I doubt that it's better than conjuration, transmutation, or abjuration, but then again, it does do something that those schools don't really do. That's the main point. Knowledge is power, especially for wizards, so losing your main ability to acquire knowledge is very problematic.

[ryu]

Scry and die just isn't the same amount of effective without the scry.

[SinsI]

Well, if I could somehow make all my spellcasting spontaneous, banning divination would be a lucrative option.

[ryu]

Good point. Spontaneous divination is also glorious.

[Forrestfire]

If I'm playing a full caster, it's probably because I want to be able to use its goodies, even if it's not to their full potential.

In any case, just in core, I love a lot of the spells on that list: detect magic, scrying, see invisiblity, detect thoughts, legend lore, foresight...

[squiggit]

Divination sort of frustrates me at times simply because it's so awesome but doesn't always line up with what I want in a wizard. Even if I don't like "Scry and die" banning divination hurts access to a lot of good basic spells too.

Makes it really hard to play a wizard if you say, WANT to be an enchanter or something for whatever reason.

[SinsI]

In any case, just in core, I love a lot of the spells on that list: detect magic, scrying, see invisiblity, detect thoughts, legend lore, foresight...
If you are playing (specialist)/Dweomerkeeper, you can use your daily XP-free Limited Wishes to recreate most of those (except the foresight).
(And since legend lore is 4th level for Bard and 7th for Wizard, Limited Wish uses the same spell slot the Legend Lore would've).

[ace rooster]

A wizard that can't read magic? as a DM I would find that hilarious. Spellcraft check to read your own spellbook. You thought wild mage was amusing.

[Yerltvachovicic]

In Pathfinder you can in fact, ban divination, and yes, my 11 lvl wizard-conjurer took that option.
In PF spells from banned school take 2 slots when meditated, so between scenarios I can normally cast Legend Lore, Scry etc, and with a wand of See Invisibility my needs are fulfilled.
True, Detect Magic takes 2 of my 4 cantrip slots, but I can live with that :]

[Brookshw]

I'm fine with them. I'll probably grumble if the parties using them constantly, but nothing wrong with them.

[Mnemnosyne]

Divination's effectiveness can be highly campaign-dependent - as in, can the DM answer your divinations correctly, and what's the process when the DM tells you something that turns out to be wrong - so I suppose my answer to this would be highly campaign-dependent as well.

In a campaign where detect magic, read magic, and the like are going to be the extent of divination's use, then yeah, I probably would. I'll gladly leave that up to another character, while I focus on other things. On the other hand, in a campaign where the DM is very good at answering divinations and/or has an effective process for when he can't answer but the divination should work, logically in-character, then I would consider it far too valuable to give up.

[Sith_Happens]

Would you? And why?

Just a thought I had a few days ago. I would depending on the character concept, but I'm very much about concept and building into that.

So what do you guys think?

Hell no. Banning Divination means I can't take Spontaneous Divination, which is probably one of the best ACFs ever.

[Silentone98]

just to clarify.... are we talking about
a.) Banning Divination from a table, such as 'no one' can use it
or
b.) Being a specialist wizard, in such a capacity as to bar yourself from casting Divination spells

the title says A..... the post hints at B.

im gonna assume you mean B, and say it depends on rather or not my build would benefit from divination more than some other school. So I would not be able to answer without knowing the particular build you were considering.

As to A.
I would never ban any of the schools of magic, ever. Because doing so would be stupid and unfun. :-p
individual spells however... maybe temporarily, and depending on the campaign and how it fit in- HIGHLY depends... that's not something I'd do lightly.

[squiggit]

A wizard that can't read magic? as a DM I would find that hilarious. Spellcraft check to read your own spellbook. You thought wild mage was amusing.

To be fair, needing to cast a spell to read your own spellbook is kind of silly too.

[SinsI]

To be fair, needing to cast a spell to read your own spellbook is kind of silly too.

You still need to read your spellbook to prepare Read Magic...

[Fax Celestis]

You still need to read your spellbook to prepare Read Magic...

No you don't.


Spellbooks

A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#spellbooks

[ryu]

No you don't.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#spellbooks

Ah but which is more specific? School banning or spellbook requirement rules?

[TuggyNE]

Ah but which is more specific? School banning or spellbook requirement rules?

Actually? Neither is relevant here, since you can always understand everything in your own spellbook without any effort at all. Borrowed spellbooks and scrolls require a Spellcraft check to learn the first time, which read magic can skip. That's it.

[Erik Vale]

No you don't.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#spellbooks

Which technically means they need to prep the spell separately, adding 15 minutes to their prep time unless they want to make a skill roll that they have probably maxed, if not optimized.

[ericgrau]

I would because while I know how powerful everyone says it can be it rarely gets used in the games we play.
This pretty much. Ya I'd ban it right away. Works in theory. Requires a massive DM headache to get it to work well in practice.

The biggest loss that doesn't require a ton of work to be useful is detect magic. And I'd manage without a great cantrip. Most everything else requires you to know what you are divining which means more questions and divinations to find out what to divine which means more headaches which means tons of lost time IRL which means most people never actually use it well. If they do prepare a divination then they haven't done the 50 questions of prep work so it's unlikely to get used at all. That leaves about 5-6 generally useful but still minor divinations.

[Malcador]

Many divinations have two properties:
1. They are most useful during downtime.
2. Either they are on the cleric list, or something on the cleric list can do the same job.

Clerics, who know their whole spell list, are masters of downtime spellcasting. In a group with a cleric and a wizard, it would probably be okay for the wizard to ban divination and the cleric to pick up the slack.

(I wouldn't be surprised if someone more knowledgeable than I knew of several prominent divination effects that wizards can accomplish but clerics cannot. If faced with such evidence, I will gladly recant what I have said here.)

[ryu]

Many divinations have two properties:
1. They are most useful during downtime.
2. Either they are on the cleric list, or something on the cleric list can do the same job.

Clerics, who know their whole spell list, are masters of downtime spellcasting. In a group with a cleric and a wizard, it would probably be okay for the wizard to ban divination and the cleric to pick up the slack.

(I wouldn't be surprised if someone more knowledgeable than I knew of several prominent divination effects that wizards can accomplish but clerics cannot. If faced with such evidence, I will gladly recant what I have said here.)

Clerics need knowledge domain to get foresight. The ultimate no and also shut up button for ambushes.

[BornValyrian]

just to clarify.... are we talking about
a.) Banning Divination from a table, such as 'no one' can use it
or
b.) Being a specialist wizard, in such a capacity as to bar yourself from casting Divination spells
.

I meant in the specialist wizard sense.

[hymer]

I meant in the specialist wizard sense.

From a purely optimization standpoint I wouldn't. But I might make a character sometime that had banned it for reasons of background, personality, or some such. It's not like I don't have some give in terms of power and versatility if I'm playing a wizard.