What is the truenamer?

[duburu]

i have been hearing that name alot from my friend for it just a broken class. what can it do, what is it and is giantitp a site for order of the stick?

[BrokenChord]

i have been hearing that name alot from my friend for it just a broken class. what can it do, what is it and is giantitp a site for order of the stick?

Truenamer is broken, but not in the usual sense of the word. Truenamer is weak to the point of not functioning properly. It uses something called Truespeak, which is basically utilizing the "true" names of things to unlock the inherent power of that thing. It's in Tome of Magic, if you care to look at it for yourself.

And is that other question a joke? Or are you actually posting here without knowing what this site is about? :smallconfused:

[The Glyphstone]

A bad joke.

[BornValyrian]

True namer is a class from Tome of Magic whose magical abilities come from its ability to speak the true names of creatures. It is broken not because it is overpowered but because the class just doesn't work. First problem is that the DC's for the skill check required are too high. The effects that his utterances (spells for truenamers) are for the most part either weak or vague. Then at level 20 it can spam Gate.

Giantitp is indeed the site for OotS. I direct you to the comics section on the left for further reading.

[eggynack]

It's a class from tome of magic that works a lot like a warlock, except that you have to make crazy high skill DC's to use all of your abilities. Also, it's really stupid in a lot of ways, with poor editing, and ill conceived limitations. The best resource to learn more about truenamers is Zaq's truenamer handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115), which covers a lot on the topic of what they can do, how good they are at doing it, and why it's a pretty broken class (in the unplayable sense).

[duburu]

Truenamer is broken, but not in the usual sense of the word. Truenamer is weak to the point of not functioning properly. It uses something called Truespeak, which is basically utilizing the "true" names of things to unlock the inherent power of that thing. It's in Tome of Magic, if you care to look at it for yourself.

And is that other question a joke? Or are you actually posting here without knowing what this site is about? :smallconfused:

i will be serious with you i dont know what site i am on it just here it just now and i have been meaning to make an account here. and yes i have no idea what giant in the playground suppose to mean:smallfurious:

[Psyren]

Here's what you need to know about the forum. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

As for the Truenamer, BornValyrian gave an adequate summary. It's a class that has great flavor but wasn't playtested very well, so it has attracted a lot of infamy as a result.

[grarrrg]

i have no idea what giant in the playground suppose to mean

I've just always assumed it to be a reference to Ender's Game.
Can't confirm for certain, never asked.

[Segev]

I've just always assumed it to be a reference to Ender's Game.
Can't confirm for certain, never asked.

If so, I feel really badly for the Giant.

[Kaje]

It's a Babylon 5 reference.

[eggynack]

I've just always assumed it to be a reference to Ender's Game.
Can't confirm for certain, never asked.
Apparently it is a Babylon 5 reference, as stated hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq16).

[grarrrg]

If so, I feel really badly for the Giant.

Not sure if NOT a fan of the books, or ARE a fan of the books...


Apparently it is a Babylon 5 reference, as stated hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq16).

Well, that explains that then.
I have watched all up Babylon 5 up through season 4, and a good scattering of the movies. Never got around to season 5.

[Yuki Akuma]

Apparently it is a Babylon 5 reference, as stated hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq16).

...Wow.

That FAQ was last updated nine years ago.

[Ravens_cry]

The best fluff with the worst crunch. Which is too bad, as the fluff is freaking awesome.

[ericgrau]

i have been hearing that name alot from my friend for it just a broken class. what can it do, what is it and is giantitp a site for order of the stick?

I haven't looked at it myself but people here think its mechanics are a total mess, that it's a pain to use and not very effective. It's like spell casting, but with rolled checks to cast. I've heard others say that you can make the checks with some work so it's not terribly weak... but it's still a total user-unfriendly mess.

The Giant in the Playground is Rich Burlew, the owner of this website. This website is mainly for Order of the Stick, a Dungeons and Dragons based webcomic. But it also has family friendly forums for discussing OotS, D&D and other things. And it's well policed to stay family friendly, so be sure to read the forum rules.

EDIT: And there's a better answer than mine above on what "Giant..." means.

[Kennisiou]

I feel like a lot of the Truenamer's reputation is undeserved and an overreaction to its overall poor playtesting and the poor editing it received. It's a class that flat out does not work unless completely optimized, has completely linear optimization options making them not very interesting to optimizers, and even at that optimization is pretty much just a middle of the road t4 buffer almost completely incapable of acting autonomously. That said, people act like these things make it a completely and woefully unplayable class. It's not. It's as playable as warlock, dragon shaman, or marshal: not something you'd bring to a high power game, but at a high op table capping at t3 you'd be far from useless and occasionally very useful, just not beating out the stuff like beguilers, bards, factotums or martial initiators.

[The Glyphstone]

I feel like a lot of the Truenamer's reputation is undeserved and an overreaction to its overall poor playtesting and the poor editing it received. It's a class that flat out does not work unless completely optimized, has completely linear optimization options making them not very interesting to optimizers, and even at that optimization is pretty much just a middle of the road t4 buffer almost completely incapable of acting autonomously. That said, people act like these things make it a completely and woefully unplayable class. It's not. It's as playable as warlock, dragon shaman, or marshal: not something you'd bring to a high power game, but at a high op table capping at t3 you'd be far from useless and occasionally very useful, just not beating out the stuff like beguilers, bards, factotums or martial initiators.

These two statements are contradictory. Warlock is fully functional right out of the box, if rather limited in its toolbox without optimizing. Dragon Shaman, and Marshal, are equally functional, but more limited and weaker to boot. But Truenamer requires optimization simply to make its own class features work. You can hand an unoptimized Warlock to a 1st-time new player and they'll be able to contribute. Hand that same player a unoptimized Truenamer and they're dead weight.

That's why people treat it as unplayable. It's playable, but the effort/return ratio required to make it playable is an order of magnitude higher than any other PC class printed.

[Segev]

Not sure if NOT a fan of the books, or ARE a fan of the books...

Depends on which books, but I do like Ender's Game and the Shadow follow-ups. (Less of a fan of Speaker for the Dead and its sequels.)

And I feel sorry for the Giant if it's based on Ender's Game because of the fate said Giant faces. Not that it's undeserved, but still...I wouldn't wish that on the author of our beloved comic series.

[grarrrg]

And I feel sorry for the Giant if it's based on Ender's Game because of the fate said Giant faces. Not that it's undeserved, but still...I wouldn't wish that on the author of our beloved comic series.

That's why I wasn't sure if fan or not.
If you don't like it, it makes sense to say that.
If you do like it...it still makes sense to say that.

[Kennisiou]

These two statements are contradictory. Warlock is fully functional right out of the box, if rather limited in its toolbox without optimizing. Dragon Shaman, and Marshal, are equally functional, but more limited and weaker to boot. But Truenamer requires optimization simply to make its own class features work. You can hand an unoptimized Warlock to a 1st-time new player and they'll be able to contribute. Hand that same player a unoptimized Truenamer and they're dead weight.

That's why people treat it as unplayable. It's playable, but the effort/return ratio required to make it playable is an order of magnitude higher than any other PC class printed.

I should've phrased that better, then. I understand the people who dislike it because it has a poor effort/return ratio or because it flat out can't work unoptimized. What I don't get are the people that are willing to defend Paladin or Monk because if you know what you're doing and take all the right ACFs they wind up in the t4-t3 range but who act like the truenamer is a cancer on the game. If you're willing to optimize and willing to play a t4 class truenamer is absolutely fine, heck, I even think they're probably the most fun t4 support class. But people just scream "broken class" at it like that label doesn't apply just as well to unoptimized monk or paladin.

[eggynack]

I should've phrased that better, then. I understand the people who dislike it because it has a poor effort/return ratio or because it flat out can't work unoptimized. What I don't get are the people that are willing to defend Paladin or Monk because if you know what you're doing and take all the right ACFs they wind up in the t4-t3 range but who act like the truenamer is a cancer on the game. If you're willing to optimize and willing to play a t4 class truenamer is absolutely fine, heck, I even think they're probably the most fun t4 support class. But people just scream "broken class" at it like that label doesn't apply just as well to unoptimized monk or paladin.
I think that the difference is that monks and paladins don't work in balance terms, while truenamers don't quite work on a fundamental rules level, in at least a few ways. It's really a confluence of factors, like how optimized truenamers end up looking really similar, which makes optimizing them boring when compared to monks or paladins, or how an unoptimized truenamer can somehow manage to be worse than an unoptimized monk or paladin, at least for the most part. It's a really messy little class. Also, I do sometimes yell at monks, and I do also sometimes say, "optimized truenamers are a lot like warlocks," which I did actually say in this thread, come to think of it. I think that us folks have mostly come around on the whole truenamer thing, to the point where our evaluation of the class is reasonably objective, if not perfectly so.

[AuraTwilight]

Paladins, Monks, Warlocks, etc. 'don't work' in that they're really weak and are outstripped by other classes that do their thing better.

Truenamers literally don't work. As in, yo, your fridge doesn't keep things cold and your lamp is not giving off light. It literally doesn't work.

[Svata]

A good concept that was so poorly edited as to be useless.

[Kennisiou]

Paladins, Monks, Warlocks, etc. 'don't work' in that they're really weak and are outstripped by other classes that do their thing better.

Truenamers literally don't work. As in, yo, your fridge doesn't keep things cold and your lamp is not giving off light. It literally doesn't work.

Except that's flat-out not true. At all. You can look at threads that show how to optimize a true name to get their abilities out. A good truenamer player should never miss their skill rolls because there's so many ways to optimize it. The only claim to it "not working" that was legitimate was that Tome of Magic was poorly edited and thus failed to print the Truename DC for the entire Lexicon of the hidden map. That was fixed a few months later in errata. Truenamer does work. It does its job as long as you know what you're doing, same with Paladin (if you know what you're doing you can play a T3 combat bard paladin or a t3 mini-wizard paladin), same with Monk (with the right ACFs monk is a fine class for its first 2-4 levels and honestly still works as high as level 10 , although if you're being completely optimal you should've prestiged/multiclassed out by then). Truenamer is in the same boat. If you know the game and know how to optimize then it does what it should do and does it fine. This attitude about Truenamer is the one that bothers me, Eggy. Your points and the opinions of most of the regulars around here are sound and well-thought. It's this "I read JaronK's tier list and read what he said about Truenamer and let that be entirely my opinion of the class without realizing that tier list was made before ToM's errata even came out and hasn't been edited since then to reflect people's broadening understanding of the game" sort of opinion on the Truenamer that bothers me. You and Karinth and the other regulars? Everything I see you guys say about Truenamer is absolutely on the money. This stuff? This is people who haven't taken the time to actually look at the many ways to optimize skill checks sounding off with very little knowledge. It really annoys me because it turns off a lot of people who'd probably actually enjoy playing the class because the optimization work can fairly easily be done for them via internet hivemind because they get it in their head that it's somehow completely non-functional. It's disappointing.

Edit: Sorry, I know I'm coming off as confrontational here and I hope that this edit will tone it down some, but I just really get annoyed by this because it's not like a class being nonfunctional out of the box without some work should matter on a board that's all about putting a bunch of work into your classes and builds. It seems like a lot of misinformation about the class goes around compared to other classes and it really annoys me. Also, I realize I sort of implied that AuraTwilight is pretty new around here when they've probably been around here for a long, long time (heck, probably longer than the JaronK's tier list I referenced), but I feel like that sort of thing is the source of that attitude in most people that hold these opinions even though it is almost certainly not in AuraTwilight's sense. Sorry, Aura, I don't mean to be raging at you and calling you out in particular with the quote is not cool. I'm keeping it up there because it sort of is an example of the opinion I get annoyed by but I just want to make it clear, I got nothing against you. Sorry for pulling you into it.

[Psyren]

It's not that you can't make it work; it's just that with the level of contortions required to do it "by RAW" you might as well just use a fix, and get way better utterances to boot.

Thanks to Kyeudo and Kellus you don't even have to do any work.

[Red Fel]

It's not that you can't make it work; it's just that with the level of contortions required to do it "by RAW" you might as well just use a fix, and get way better utterances to boot.

Thanks to Kyeudo and Kellus you don't even have to do any work.

Pretty much this.

I agree with Kenn, with regard to the class working. It technically works. It technically does what it's supposed to. However, the problem is the effort it takes to get you there.

With the other "broken" classes, even without optimization, you can practically, not just technically, do what your class is designed to do. A Paladin can melee and cast spells, if weakly; a Monk can melee and grapple, if badly; a Warlock can blast, if feebly; and so on. With optimization, that can improve, and the toolbox can be expanded; for example, you could take a Cleric into Prestige Paladin, and suddenly have a Paladin with Cleric casting and Domains. There are ways both to improve the class' basic abilities, and to expand the toolbox through multiclassing and other forms of optimization.

With the Truenamer, however, two things become apparent. First, without optimization, your core class abilities become difficult, if not impossible, to use. If you do not max Truespeak at every class level, your ability to use it shrivels up. If you multiclass out, your Truenamer abilities become ineffectual at best. So the class actively prevents you from expanding your toolbox, and forces you to focus on optimization. If you do not optimize, Truenamer is extraordinarily difficult to play.

Second, as Eggy points out, once you do optimize a Truenamer, it tends to look the same as any other optimized Truenamer. There are many ways to optimize a Monk, Paladin, or Warlock; you could go Hellfire Warlock or Clawlock/Shou, Cleric/Prestige Paladin or Arcane Order Paladin, mix Monk into almost any class that could use an unarmed boost. There are plenty of things you can do with them. But really, optimizing Truenamer means optimizing Truespeak. Period, full stop. That's the focal point of optimizing the class. As a result, even though, as you point out Kenn, there are many ways to do so, it all has the same impact. An optimized X can be achieved in many ways, with many outcomes; an optimized Truenamer has only one outcome.

That, really, is my issue with the class. And while I share your distaste for hyperbole, Kenn, I understand its use in this context. Many new players may come to the Truenamer class, and think - rightly - that it's a really awesome concept. Because it is. But it is not a class for new players. It is a class for someone prepared to optimize, who knows some good skill-maxing tricks and is prepared to be of limited utility until the class' best abilities come online.

Some new players think, "Oh, the class is supposed to be hard, but I can make it work." They're in for disappointment. The hyperbole is a shorthand warning. The Truenamer class isn't completely useless, but it is exceptionally challenging, and not always in a fun way. That, I think, is what merits the hyperbole. More experienced players aren't likely to be deterred, I think, by the language; they have the confidence to try it for themselves. But Truenamer is a class I would actively discourage an inexperienced player from taking, for reasons expressed above.

Tl;dr: If you have to optimize a class simply to use its core abilities to a reasonable degree, and if doing so would prevent you from having additional abilities in your toolbox, and if doing so results in your character looking more or less the same as another character of the same class, it's not a very good class as-written, and justifies strong language deterring less-experienced players.

[Snowbluff]

A miserable pile of words.

[Red Fel]

A miserable pile of words.

But enough Truespeak... Have at you!

[Psyren]

A miserable pile of words.

I snorted coffee everywhere, I hope you're happy :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

But enough Truespeak... Have at you!

Meka-leka-hi-meka-hiney-ho!
Kalima! Kalima! KALIMA!
Wonder Twin powers activate!
Hadoken!

[Bonzai]

i have been hearing that name alot from my friend for it just a broken class. what can it do, what is it and is giantitp a site for order of the stick?

It's a pseudo caster that's casting system is based off of making skill checks with ever increasing levels of difficulty. The DC is based on 15+2xCR of the target. That means that the DC increases by 2 each level, while your skill check will only improve by one. This means that unless the Truenamer increases his skill check through alternative means, he gets 5% worse at using truenaming on an equal level CR each level. This is why people say that the class is broken, as a naked unoptimized truenamer can't even make a check in the latter levels.

The class plays a bit like a bard, in that it provides a lot of buffs and debuffs. The bad news is that you usually get certain abilities way later than a normal caster. The good news is that it is usually a little more powerful than the standard ability. The class has some tricks to it, and a lot of stuff doesn't have saves. It's ultimate ability is a free gate, which is nice, but is it worth 20 levels to get? Most would say no.

I have played a True Namer from lvl 3 to 15. I would advise against playing one unless you have a friendly DM who is willing to work with you.

[Bloodgruve]

I think its the only published class that you have to heavily optimize just to simply play it effectively.

Without optimizing your Truespeak skill you're simply failing DC's and wasting your actions.

IIRC npc classes like Expert have been compared to Truenamer out of the box.

Great concept, terrible design. Its like a class that doesn't want itself to successfully use its signature ability...

Blood~

[Hecuba]

From a design-in-a-vacuum standpoint, I don't find the Truenamer's structure to be particularly bad.
Indeed, the narrative traditions behind the ideas of names as magic back-up the goals of most of the mechanics: even the DC scaling that makes it increasingly difficult to use against equal ECL targets has a strong tie to magic being less effective against the mighty.

The fundamental issue is that, take as a whole, those narrative goals run counter to the overall structure and themes of the rest of the game. The rest of the mighty in the game remain mighty against other mighty people: Truenamers are the only ones operating under their self-imposed dichotomy.

This is, in many ways, the same fundamental problem that 3.0 psionics had. The system is sound internally, but:

Lacks sufficient material to be used in isolation
Does not inter-operate with the rest of 3.x D&D soundly.

[Snowbluff]

But enough Truespeak... Have at you!


I snorted coffee everywhere, I hope you're happy :smallbiggrin:
Hehehehe! :3


This is, in many ways, the same fundamental problem that 3.0 psionics had. The system is sound internally, but:

Lacks sufficient material to be used in isolation
Does not inter-operate with the rest of 3.x D&D soundly.


I agree with the lack of support and poor integration.

Castlevania references aside, my biggest issue is the effects they generate. I would play one if the utterances weren't so weeny.

My third and final complaint is the lack of abilities outside of truenaming. I think they should be more of a skill monkey.

[Zanos]

From a design-in-a-vacuum standpoint, I don't find the Truenamer's structure to be particularly bad.
Indeed, the narrative traditions behind the ideas of names as magic back-up the goals of most of the mechanics: even the DC scaling that makes it increasingly difficult to use against equal ECL targets has a strong tie to magic being less effective against the mighty.
In most settings I'm familiar with magic doesn't just "not work" because they're strong.

I mean, yeah, stronger people will be able to dodge a fireball or resist a mental influence spell, but I think that's fairly well replicated with saving throws. When an archmage throws down with a legendary warrior it would be pretty dumb and anti-climactic if the legendary warrior didn't have to do anything to have magic not work on him.

[Red Fel]

In most settings I'm familiar with magic doesn't just "not work" because they're strong.

I mean, yeah, stronger people will be able to dodge a fireball or resist a mental influence spell, but I think that's fairly well replicated with saving throws. When an archmage throws down with a legendary warrior it would be pretty dumb and anti-climactic if the legendary warrior didn't have to do anything to have magic not work on him.

I can see this happening.

Scenario 1: Hrulfgar, Mighty Barbarian, confronts the Dread Wizard Alzinor. Alzinor lets loose a torrent of flames, which wash over Hrulfgar's mighty pectoral muscles uselessly. Hrulfgar laughs.

Scenario 2: Hrulfgar, Mighty Barbarian, confronts the Dark Cleric Lepris. Lepris invokes the name of his wicked patron, attempting to inflict a terrible curse upon Hrulfgar. Hrulfgar feels a sudden chill, but his profound spirit withstands the curse. Hrulfgar laughs.

Scenario 3: Hrulfgar, Mighty Barbarian, confronts the enigmatic Truenamer Galba. Galba starts to speak the words to unmake Hrulfgar, and sneezes. He tries again, and stutters. He scratches his head, before saying, "Wow, Truespeak is hard." Hrulfgar looks confused.

[eggynack]

Well, the way I figure it, as you get up there in power, you get a bunch of random titles etched into the very fabric of the universe. So, a dog might just be dog, but if you face off against a balor, their truename is inevitably going to be something like, "Captain McBalor: the magnificently amazing and stupendously fantastic champion of the damned, whose every word spoken sows chaos, and who totally destroyed a whole city once and he's not even lying about that." Figuring out a big creature's ridiculous title just by looking at them takes a lot of practice, and the real tragedy is that most folks never learn the awesome stuff that the universe has to say about them.

[Jormengand]

crazy high skill DC's
just doesn't work
flat out does not work unless completely optimized
It literally doesn't work.
useless.
while your skill check will only improve by one.

At first level, an illumian truenamer with Item Familiar, a flaw for Skill Focus, and 18 INT will have +16 to his truespeak check using only things which I came up with off the top of my head.Improved power sigils is another 1. Masterwork truespeak tool is another +2. At second, it will go up by 3, and at every level thereafter 2 more, without adding any more feats, items, class features or spells. This means that, even at first level, you can have beaten your "Crazy high skill DC's [sic]" by no less than 2 before you even think about rolling. This isn't hyper-optimising, it's grabbing the most obvious things that come to mind (Seriously, I don't think that INT 18, some ranks, a couple of feats and a race that might as well just have been an elf is stretching it too far).

Your skill check is increasing by 2 each level, not to mention Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, Universal Aptitude, a repertoire of other tricks you can pull and a friendly marshal adding his CHA to your everything, to the point where you don't even have to roll your quickened utterances any more.

And then you hit level 20. And then you spam Solars. And you win at life. That's probably where I take issue at truenamers - most of their utterances don't quite come up to standard to make up for the ability to use them ~3-4 times as many times as a wizard/cleric, and then you get SLA gate? The what?

Truenamers are not useless, and they do scale with level properly until 20th when they solve every problem with solar angels. Sure, they were badly designed, but so is, I dunno, the whole of 3.5? Most of what I hear about truenamers comes from repeated drivel by people who have never read the Tome of Magic in their lives, and the rest comes from people who played it once, didn't know how to make it work, and gave up on it. It's not quite as hard as you envisage.

[/rant]

[squiggit]

Most of what I hear about truenamers comes from repeated drivel by people who have never read the Tome of Magic in their lives, and the rest comes from people who played it once, didn't know how to make it work, and gave up on it. It's not quite as hard as you envisage.

You've entirely missed the point. The fact that you have to optimize the character for baseline functionality (and that when you do optimize you're only just that: functional) is the entire crux of the issue here.

[Kyeudo]

The biggest problem with Truenamers is actually not Truespeak DCs. While those require you to optimize, most of the optimizations are fairly straightforward and easy enough for a newbie to stumble on (take Skill Focus (Truespeak), max out Truespeak, focus on boosting your Int, grab an Amulet of the Silver Tongue). This leaves you able to use your class abilities in most circumstances with an optimization requirement only moderately higher than playing a blaster wizard in a resistance-heavy campaign.

The biggest problem is that you can't do anything amazing with the class. There are so few good options for the Truenamer that every Truenamer is cast from the same mold. The crap is obviously crap ("Let's see, for my fourth level utterance, I can either take the first level spell equivalent or I can take the second level spell equivalent. What a difficult choice."), and what little gold there is to find stands out like a glowing ruby in a bucket of blue glass pieces ("XP-free gate, why yes thank you!"). Truenamer's make no real choices as they level up.

Further, at most levels even their best options don't have a level-appropriate amount of oomph. Truenamers are figuring out how to fly for a minute when Wizards are learning to fly all day. Truenamers figure out how to cure poison ten level later than a Cleric. Etc. Truenamers are figuring out how to walk when the Fighter is figuring out how to Ubercharge and the Wizard is figuring out time travel.

Now, the Truenamer isn't beyond saving if you want to homebrew some. I did it and the hardest part was hand-typing the entire Truenaming section of the Tome of Magic. It requires giving them more options, moving old options to more appropriate levels, and adjusting the Truespeak check formula back a bit to give them more freedom in gear choices. If you don't want to do the work yourself, you can always use my homebrew.

[eggynack]

At first level, an illumian truenamer with Item Familiar, a flaw for Skill Focus, and 18 INT will have +16 to his truespeak check using only things which I came up with off the top of my head.Improved power sigils is another 1. Masterwork truespeak tool is another +2. At second, it will go up by 3, and at every level thereafter 2 more, without adding any more feats, items, class features or spells. This means that, even at first level, you can have beaten your "Crazy high skill DC's [sic]" by no less than 2 before you even think about rolling. This isn't hyper-optimising, it's grabbing the most obvious things that come to mind (Seriously, I don't think that INT 18, some ranks, a couple of feats and a race that might as well just have been an elf is stretching it too far).
You just used a pretty obscure race, a flaw, a weird and kinda overpowered feat, a pretty specific item that most folks don't know about, and perfectly maxed out stats. That's not beyond me, cause I have some capability for optimization, but some people lack that level of system knowledge, and for them these DC's are highly difficult to hit. Seriously, I've known D&D playing folks who would think I was talking crazy if I told them to use all of this stuff you've presented. Moreover, even if someone understands all of this stuff, there's no assurance that they won't be turned away by the fact that they absolutely must min-max in order to just be competent at their chosen class. This level of optimization you've presented here, and probably lesser levels of optimization that allow for truenaming as well, is more than is necessary for being capable of doing what your class is designed to do with nearly any other class in the game. The only exception I can think of offhand is the artificer, but that class is crazy rewarding compared to what you get from truenamer optimization, which is a damp gray blob of overleveled abilities.

[The Glyphstone]

Most of what I hear about truenamers comes from repeated drivel by people who have never read the Tome of Magic in their lives, and the rest comes from people who played it once, didn't know how to make it work, and gave up on it. It's not quite as hard as you envisage.

[/rant]

You listed a pretty highly optimized Truenamer build (Item Familiar, Ilumian, and flaws?) as an example of why Truenamers don't need to be optimized to work. The irony is supreme.

[Zanos]

I'd be pressed to even find a DM that would allow Item Familiar.

[eggynack]

I'd be pressed to even find a DM that would allow Item Familiar.
Indeed, though I could imagine one making an exception for the truenamer. That's not exactly a glowing recommendation of the class, however.

[Psyren]

The biggest problem with Truenamers is actually not Truespeak DCs. While those require you to optimize, most of the optimizations are fairly straightforward and easy enough for a newbie to stumble on (take Skill Focus (Truespeak), max out Truespeak, focus on boosting your Int, grab an Amulet of the Silver Tongue). This leaves you able to use your class abilities in most circumstances with an optimization requirement only moderately higher than playing a blaster wizard in a resistance-heavy campaign.

The biggest problem is that you can't do anything amazing with the class. There are so few good options for the Truenamer that every Truenamer is cast from the same mold. The crap is obviously crap ("Let's see, for my fourth level utterance, I can either take the first level spell equivalent or I can take the second level spell equivalent. What a difficult choice."), and what little gold there is to find stands out like a glowing ruby in a bucket of blue glass pieces ("XP-free gate, why yes thank you!"). Truenamer's make no real choices as they level up.

Further, at most levels even their best options don't have a level-appropriate amount of oomph. Truenamers are figuring out how to fly for a minute when Wizards are learning to fly all day. Truenamers figure out how to cure poison ten level later than a Cleric. Etc. Truenamers are figuring out how to walk when the Fighter is figuring out how to Ubercharge and the Wizard is figuring out time travel.

Now, the Truenamer isn't beyond saving if you want to homebrew some. I did it and the hardest part was hand-typing the entire Truenaming section of the Tome of Magic. It requires giving them more options, moving old options to more appropriate levels, and adjusting the Truespeak check formula back a bit to give them more freedom in gear choices. If you don't want to do the work yourself, you can always use my homebrew.

All of this.



My third and final complaint is the lack of abilities outside of truenaming. I think they should be more of a skill monkey.

I would say loremonkey rather than skillmonkey. After all, they spend an enormous amount of time tracing genealogies, historical events, locations, religion, magic, planar cosmology etc. in order to track down all the various unique identifiers used by the universe. Due to that, knowledge (and language) should really be a natural fit. And I definitely like them having UMD, since being the cunning linguists they are they should have little problem sussing out the right word to make a wand do its thing.


@ Item Familiar: I'm sorry, but this is a level of variance/optimization you can't assume is allowed in most campaigns. It's just not. Intelligent Items are rare enough as it is, never mind ones that serve no real purpose to the setting beyond being a skill point battery for one PC.

[Jormengand]

You listed a pretty highly optimized Truenamer build (Item Familiar, Ilumian, and flaws?) as an example of why Truenamers don't need to be optimized to work. The irony is supreme.

Compare grey elf or just elf elf, still item familiar (because seriously, who wouldn't take it?) and waiting until level 3 for the skill focus. You lose out on a single point for not having improved power sigils, and another at second level for your power sigils not improving automatically. That's it.


a pretty specific item that most folks don't know about, and perfectly maxed out stats.

I'm sorry, but Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue is in the same book.

And seriously, wizards put 18 in INT, sorcs put 18 in CHA... why shouldn't truenamers put 18 in INT? And taking 4 ranks in truespeak is so blindingly obvious that anyone who doesn't should have their truenamer licence revoked.

I mean, fighters who don't know how to build properly are, honestly, terrible. The fact that their only class features are bonus feats, and can therefore be chosen from this massive list, doesn't exactly make them easy. Sorcerers and bards have to choose every single spell they will ever cast, and can only make slight adjustments to this decision. Choose wrong and you're screwed. But I don't hear people railing against fighters and sorcerers (okay, maybe fighters, but usually for different reasons). Why truenamers?

[eggynack]

I'm sorry, but Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue is in the same book.
You didn't really list that one, and I think that all of the stuff you listed is from different books.


And seriously, wizards put 18 in INT, sorcs put 18 in CHA... why shouldn't truenamers put 18 in INT? And taking 4 ranks in truespeak is so blindingly obvious that anyone who doesn't should have their truenamer licence revoked.
A wizard should put an 18 in int. A sorcerer should put an 18 in cha. They do not have to. A wizard can hit high levels of competence with 12 intelligence, and only misses getting the spells on time at level three with 11 starting intelligence, while sorcerers don't even miss that level. You can't always assume perfect stats. I think we can assume max ranks though.

I mean, fighters who don't know how to build properly are, honestly, terrible. The fact that their only class features are bonus feats, and can therefore be chosen from this massive list, doesn't exactly make them easy. Sorcerers and bards have to choose every single spell they will ever cast, and can only make slight adjustments to this decision. Choose wrong and you're screwed. But I don't hear people railing against fighters and sorcerers (okay, maybe fighters, but usually for different reasons). Why truenamers?
They're plenty bad, but they still do the stuff they're supposed to do. Fighters hit stuff in the face, and the stuff dies, and that's pretty true even without optimization. At the same time though, as you noted, people do rail against fighters, for the reason you've noted. Fighters can do different things when optimized though, and are customizable in ways that a truenamer is not. So, truenamers are screwed in the same way as fighters, and they're both criticized for it, and truenamers are also screwed in one or two other ways, and truenamers are criticized for that in ways the fighter isn't. I really don't see the issue with the degree of vitriol that truenamers attract.

[Hecuba]

In most settings I'm familiar with magic doesn't just "not work" because they're strong.

I mean, yeah, stronger people will be able to dodge a fireball or resist a mental influence spell, but I think that's fairly well replicated with saving throws. When an archmage throws down with a legendary warrior it would be pretty dumb and anti-climactic if the legendary warrior didn't have to do anything to have magic not work on him.

To be more specific on this:

In much of the folklore and fairly tales that deal with name magic, "true names" evolve over time (at least for changeable things like people). This is a reflection of their experiences changing them.

For a smaller, but still considerable portion of the folklore, the names not only change but also becomes longer and more complex as people gain experiences.
Savings throws do indeed make a decent representation of this (and indeed a preferable one for D&D).
But that isn't to say that there is no merit to the idea of the mighty (more experienced) having more complex names.

[prufock]

Compare grey elf or just elf elf, still item familiar (because seriously, who wouldn't take it?) and waiting until level 3 for the skill focus. You lose out on a single point for not having improved power sigils, and another at second level for your power sigils not improving automatically. That's it.
A) You can't take Item Familiar at first level, as you claimed. It has a prerequisite of character level 3.
B) Item Familiars cost at least 2000 gp and have a permanent magical effect already. How are you getting that cash at level 1?
C) Even the Lesser Amulet of Silver Tongue costs 2500 gp, you don't have this at level 1 either.

[squiggit]

But I don't hear people railing against fighters and sorcerers (okay, maybe fighters, but usually for different reasons). Why truenamers?
Because a low op fighter or sorcerer in a low op game is going to be able to function. Hell, among low-op players fighters and sorcerers are usually considered really strong classes.

Truenamers are unique because a poorly optimized fighter or sorcerer or wizard is worse at their job than a highly optimized one. While a poorly optimized Truenamer outright doesn't work.

[Psyren]

I like the idea that once you know someone (or something's) name, you know it, and the universe simply applies some sort of linguistic inertia to your pronunciation. I guess it's the database nerd in me loving that everyone has a fixed primary key. Plus, if "leveling up" could change your name, it wouldn't nearly have the gravitas it does now, whereby even the most powerful archfiends etc. are scared of their dox being dropped on the metaphysical interwebs and such.

As for name magic, the only series I can think of really centered around it is Earthsea, though it does pop up in other works in a lesser capacity.

[Jormengand]

Truenamers are unique because a poorly optimized fighter or sorcerer or wizard is worse at their job than a highly optimized one. While a poorly optimized Truenamer outright doesn't work.

A "Poorly optimised truenamer" with 14 INT and 4 truespeak ranks, and I'm not even going to give him skill focus, against DC 17 needs to roll an 11. A fighter with 14 strength against AC 14 (because nobody has any dexterity, y'see, and only light armour) needs... oh, wait, an 11. The truenamer can be replicating fourth-level spells at this point. The fighter can be hitting something with a stick.

A truenamer isn't a beginner class, but even a beginner should be able to realise that a high intelligence (like more than 14) and skill focus might, possibly, just maybe, be a good idea.

[Bloodgruve]

Truenamers are unique because a poorly optimized fighter or sorcerer or wizard is worse at their job than a highly optimized one. While a poorly optimized Truenamer outright doesn't work.

^This right here.

In the 3.5 system and the 5 minute work day Truenamer out of the box just doesn't perform. Its bad enough when your target makes a save but wasting even more actions when you don't make your own DC is unacceptable design to me.

Throw Truenamer at a beginner or casual player and see what the outcome would be without help. Most things needed to optimize are relatively obscure.

If the class could be more consistent without such heavy optimization I would love to play it. Drop TS DC's down and reset the Law of Resistance per encounter would help.

Blood~

[Segev]

A "Poorly optimised truenamer" with 14 INT and 4 truespeak ranks, and I'm not even going to give him skill focus, against DC 17 needs to roll an 11. A fighter with 14 strength against AC 14 (because nobody has any dexterity, y'see, and only light armour) needs... oh, wait, an 11. The truenamer can be replicating fourth-level spells at this point. The fighter can be hitting something with a stick.

A truenamer isn't a beginner class, but even a beginner should be able to realise that a high intelligence (like more than 14) and skill focus might, possibly, just maybe, be a good idea.

Don't forget taht the Truenamer adds +2 to his DC (the "effective AC" of his target, in your fighter analogy) every time he uses an Utterance.

So hit or miss, he's getting worse at it as the day goes by. While the Wizard might run out of spells, he at least could pick ones that he wouldn't see fail 50% of the time before his targets were affected. Or, if he did, at least they didn't get a save on TOP of that 50% fail rate.

The fighter doesn't have to deal with hitting an AC and having his targets get a save, either. Just the first.

[Bloodgruve]

Don't forget taht the Truenamer adds +2 to his DC (the "effective AC" of his target, in your fighter analogy) every time he uses an Utterance.

So hit or miss, he's getting worse at it as the day goes by.

I believe that the Law of Resistance only applies if you succeed the DC check. Don't think failures increase it.

Blood~

[Jormengand]

Don't forget taht the Truenamer adds +2 to his DC (the "effective AC" of his target, in your fighter analogy) every time he uses an Utterance.

Well, so long as he passe...


I believe that the Law of Resistance only applies if you succeed the DC check. Don't think failures increase it.

Blood~

Yeah, thank you.


So hit or miss, he's getting worse at it as the day goes by. While the Wizard might run out of spells, he at least could pick ones that he wouldn't see fail 50% of the time before his targets were affected. Or, if he did, at least they didn't get a save on TOP of that 50% fail rate.

Very, very few utterances allow saves. Even ones like reversed mystic rampart or reversed inertia surge which you would expect to allow saves, don't. And again, if the truenamer has a clue what he's doing, he'll be getting at least one utterance off before he even thinks about rolling. And if the wizard doesn't know what he's doing, he'll pack magic missile or burning hands, and the truenamer is better at dealing damage than you, at least temporarily.


The fighter doesn't have to deal with hitting an AC and having his targets get a save, either. Just the first.

Neither does the truenamer.

[Psyren]

The Law of Sequence is a much bigger problem, rendering just about every utterance with a duration 1/encounter unless you ignore it. The extreme lateness with which you gain Speak Unto The Masses just adds insult to the injury.

[Segev]

You know, even granting the "well, the fighter has a 50% chance, too" argument validity, I think it worth pointing out that it is the fighter that is being held up as proof that the Truenamer is not uselessly weak because the fighter is no stronger.

And this is at first level, when the Fighter is probably at his strongest relative to other classes.

And the Truenamer is going to get progressively weaker relative to the targets he needs to influence as he levels up; having started only optimilzed "lightly," he has a ton of optimization ahead of him to keep up.

Now, it's possible; an item that grants a magical bonus to Truenaming can be upgraded for well within WBL as the Truenamer gains levels. But it's going to remain a 50% chance, at that rate. The Fighter, even, tends to have higher chances to hit as he gains levels (at least until he runs into foes that simply say "nope, can't hit me at all with your weapon of choice").

[Jormengand]

(at least until he runs into foes that simply say "nope, can't hit me at all with your weapon of choice").

What, like truenamers who are ethereal, permanently? Ether reforged, man. Ether reforged.

[Segev]

What, like truenamers who are ethereal, permanently? Ether reforged, man. Ether reforged.

Truenamers who aren't playing the game anymore? (Etherealness != incorporeality, and the latter is a ghost touch weapon away.)

You're still not really making your point. The Truenamer is still having a harder time affecting himself with every level without optimization assistance.

You can certainly make it play as well as a Tier 3 class...but it takes a lot of optimization. This puts its ceiling higher than Fighter's, but its floor is well below. And when your basis of comparison is the Fighter...well, you've already lost.

[Jormengand]

And when your basis of comparison is the Fighter...well, you've already lost.

Sorry, but if you think that the fighter is unplayable, along with, I dunno, every nonmagical class in the game, you're playing a different kind of D&D from me.

[Snowbluff]

The Law of Sequence is a much bigger problem, rendering just about every utterance with a duration 1/encounter unless you ignore it. The extreme lateness with which you gain Speak Unto The Masses just adds insult to the injury.
Level changing ignores the Law of Sequence and replaces it with the Law of Resistance.

Re Skills: Loremaster is a crappy role, especially when everyone and their mother has some knowledge skills. Truenamers already fill the role, and that does nothing to help them. UMD is a stopgap measure, and requires monetary investment to be useful. I'd like to see a full list closer to a rogue's, 6+ points/level, and/or the ability to substitute in knowledge skills for the other ones.

[eggynack]

A "Poorly optimised truenamer" with 14 INT and 4 truespeak ranks, and I'm not even going to give him skill focus, against DC 17 needs to roll an 11. A fighter with 14 strength against AC 14 (because nobody has any dexterity, y'see, and only light armour) needs... oh, wait, an 11. The truenamer can be replicating fourth-level spells at this point. The fighter can be hitting something with a stick.

A truenamer isn't a beginner class, but even a beginner should be able to realise that a high intelligence (like more than 14) and skill focus might, possibly, just maybe, be a good idea.
I think that your analysis here is somewhat flawed in that you're not actually looking at the place where truenamers have difficulty. You're looking at level one, where the skill DC's haven't even started scaling in their stupid manner yet. How's about we change that to level 5? Now the truenamer has 15 intelligence, because of the level up point, he has 8 ranks in truespeak, because that's a thing we're assuming, except now the truespeak check against an enemy of HD equal to your level has a DC of 25, and your check is only getting a +10, so you now need to roll a 15 to succeed. It just keeps going like that, getting worse and worse as you level, and counteracting it is possible, but it takes optimization. Moreover, that optimization gets more and more difficult as you level, as your skill focus (truespeak) is just one feat, and it can only delay difficulties for so long. At some point, things become untenable for our noble low-op player.

[Psyren]

Level changing ignores the Law of Sequence and replaces it with the Law of Resistance.

It ignores both of them, because if you argue that heightening an utterance = new utterance then neither Law will apply. If the only way you can make the laws reasonable is to remove them entirely then they are bad laws.

[Snowbluff]

It ignores both of them, because if you argue that heightening an utterance = new utterance then neither Law will apply. If the only way you can make the laws reasonable is to remove them entirely then they are bad laws.

It doesn't ignore the Law of Resistance. It only avoids the Law of Sequence by being specifically mentioned. Also, when they get worthwhile effects, being able to use the abilities ad naseam without any DC increase would be ridiculous.

Not to mention that it's a fun mechanic. "Wait guys, I can do that again thanks to my understanding of the laws of the universe."

[Segev]

Sorry, but if you think that the fighter is unplayable, along with, I dunno, every nonmagical class in the game, you're playing a different kind of D&D from me.

Never said Fighter was unplayable. What I said was that, if the Fighter is your benchmark, then we're starting pretty low already. I then point out that the Truenamer FALLS BEHIND the Fighter as he levels up, which slips him from "weak" to "unplayable" as levels progress, barring some pretty extensive optimization.

[Psyren]

It doesn't ignore the Law of Resistance. It only avoids the Law of Sequence by being specifically mentioned.

But the specific reading you're using to make it ignore the LoS also causes it to ignore the LoR. Specifically, you're relying on the clause "because these constitute different utterances" - which means that they're not the same utterance anymore, by definition. They cannot be different utterances and the same utterance simultaneously.

[Kennisiou]

Never said Fighter was unplayable. What I said was that, if the Fighter is your benchmark, then we're starting pretty low already. I then point out that the Truenamer FALLS BEHIND the Fighter as he levels up, which slips him from "weak" to "unplayable" as levels progress, barring some pretty extensive optimization.

I don't know what game you're playing where truenamer falls behind fighter when he levels up. Truenamer remains a solid T4 support whereas dungeon crasher fighter stops being t4 territory around level 8-ish. Heck, truenamer at 17 and 20 even eventually starts being able to contribute at a T3-T2 level thanks to speak to the masses and gate, although it's kinda too little too late. True Namer scales significantly better than fighter does. And if you say "but the skill checks get harder" then I have a secret for you... the means of passing those skill checks become more plentiful as you level. You get more wealth to expend on getting more bonuses. Optimizing your truespeak to make sure you never fail a check is not that hard, truenamer doesn't so much "fall off" over levels as occasionally hit minor speedbumps. There's just a few points on their level progression where WBL doesn't quite keep up with the increased DC, but then you hit next level and you leapfrog over it by getting the next item and are well ahead for a few levels before you start encroaching on speedbump territory again (I cannot remember where exactly these points are, but it's basically just before you buy silvertongue amulet, just before you get entry into the guild from complete champion, just before you get greater silvertongue amulet, and just before you can have headband of int +6 and a +5 inherent bonus both where you'll occasionally have trouble, but even then it's not much and it's far from enough trouble that they fall behind the fighter in usefulness -- hell, UMD as a class skill by itself practically insures you're more useful than fighter >_>).

[Snowbluff]

But the specific reading you're using to make it ignore the LoS also causes it to ignore the LoR. Specifically, you're relying on the clause "because these constitute different utterances" - which means that they're not the same utterance anymore, by definition. They cannot be different utterances and the same utterance simultaneously.

Things can be one thing for certain purposes and other things for other purposes. SLAs are not spells, but they are for the purpose of the Sudden MM rules.

Even with your interpretation, the DCs would still increase with use. 4 per active utterance.

[Kyeudo]

Never said Fighter was unplayable. What I said was that, if the Fighter is your benchmark, then we're starting pretty low already. I then point out that the Truenamer FALLS BEHIND the Fighter as he levels up, which slips him from "weak" to "unplayable" as levels progress, barring some pretty extensive optimization.

Let's be fair and not call it "extensive". I've done the math on the whole thing a number of times and a number of ways. WotC actually must have done the math as well, because the numbers meet up with an awfully intentional closeness.

WotC seems to have assumed that you would have the following: Skill Focus(Truespeak), a starting Int of 18, all attribute points to Int, a +6 Headband of Intellect, a +5 inherent bonus to Int from either Wishes or from a Tome, a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, and maximum ranks in Truespeak. If you are working to acquire these at a reasonable pace (25% of your current wealth tied up in boosters for your Truespeak check/Intelligence), you will have approximately a 50% chance per utterance to affect an on-CR target at any given level for the first utterance of the day.

None of these options are terribly unreasonable - they are what any sane optimizer would have gone with as first-choice options before scouring sourcebooks - and they all come from either the PHB, the DMG, or the Tome of Magic itself. If you optimize further and throw in Item Familars and the Paragnostic Assembly bonus, a Truenamer is pretty much guaranteed to make his check.

The Utterances the Truenamer is using, however, are a crime. A Truenamer gets the equivalent of chill metal at 3rd level and it only gets worse from there. A Truenamer is curing a negative level at a time when the Cleric is throwing around ennervation. His Solid Fog equivalent shows up a whole spell level late and is pretty much the only good utterance in the entire Lexicon of the Perfected Map short of Gate.

A Quicken Utterance truenamer (so any viable truenamer build - there's only the one) could maybe shut down a Fighter long enough to kill him, but I wouldn't count on it being a sure thing. As for other challenges, a Truenamer can probably cheerlead someone to victory, but his own ability to deal with most challenges is woefully small. Truenamers are amazing at Knowledge checks, so there's little they can't provide information on (+15 total from two utterances to any Knowledge check they want and they can do it untrained), but knowing things isn't terribly useful when those things are flossing with your small intestine.

[Segev]

Sorry, but when you say "the ways to buff your skill checks get more plentiful," you're right, but you're defeating your own argument that this makes the Truenamer viable without a good bit of optimization. Finding all the ways to do this in the most efficacious manner without breaking the truenamer's bank on his WBL (or breaking his bank on his WBL so this is all he has) is a lot of optimization. Anything else with taht much optimization is going to be well into Tier 3.

Even the Fighter.

[A Tad Insane]

I think we can all agree that the truenamer has a skill wall that few (but not all) can overcome

[Big Fau]

Truenamer remains a solid T4 support whereas dungeon crasher fighter stops being t4 territory around level 8-ish.

Contesting this: A Tier 4 support class has multiple supportive abilities that are 1) Decent with minimal optimization, 2) Affect the party as a whole or provide a significant boost to a single target, 3) Buff for either the entire fight (whole party) or several minutes (single target), and 4) Can be used reliably.

The Truenamer requires you to devote 25% of your entire WBL to it (just shy of the 200K a Fighter's weapon costs, and it's highly unlikely that anyone in your party can craft the Amulet you need; other spellcasters need about 15% of their full WBL to get the maximum benefits of their spells, and can spend the rest padding out their stats), provides buffs that were relevant 2 or more levels ago (and in one case was relevant almost 7 levels prior to you obtaining it), cannot affect more than one person for more than 5 rounds, and has a 50% chance of working on that single target if you don't extend the utterance.

This is for the first instance of each utterance, of which only a handful are worth using at all (seriously, 90% of the entire second lexicon is worthless and only 2 of the third are even worth talking about). Attempting to buff more than one target means your chance of failure increases by 25% per target, and you cannot use Quicken Utterance at all unless you boost your Truespeech check even higher than what you need to affect enemies. It is not a Tier 4 support class as even the Adept is more useful at every level.

If half of your actions fail, you may as well skip your turn every other round and save people time. The Truenamer is worse than this, as successes increase the failure rate for the rest of the day unless you break the RNG. This applies at every level. The Fighter doesn't have to deal with the enemy's AC going up by 2 every time he hits, and can increase the number of attacks he gets right off the bat. The Truenamer can't even think about using two Utterances in the same round until 9th level, and actually using Quicken Utterance at that level is incredibly difficult.

Now for the logic question: Why is it equally hard to use a 1st level Evolving Mind Utterance as it is to use a 6th level one? If the Utterances are based on using a concept, why is the Minor Word of Nurturing as difficult to use as the Greater one?

And why can't I use both the normal and inverse versions back-to-back?

The Truenamer isn't so much a cheerleader as an emailed birthday card.

[Psyren]

Things can be one thing for certain purposes and other things for other purposes.

That quoted text under the Law of Sequence establishes a general rule about utterances; the only difference between my reading and yours is how we define the terms "higher-level" and "lower-level." You take them to mean "spell level" whereas I think they meant "Minor, Lesser, Moderate" etc.

I'm not saying your interpretation is invalid - I'm just pointing out the unintended consequences of allowing it as a "fix."



Even with your interpretation, the DCs would still increase with use. 4 per active utterance.

Certainly, but this ignores player behavior. If I heal 6 times with LWoN, that's +12 DC; a 7th time is going to be pretty painful/unlikely. But oh, I can simply heighten it - this raises the DC by 4, but it's a brand new utterance, so the LoR I've built up no longer applies - effectively, I've reduced the DC by 8 for no cost at all.


Let's be fair and not call it "extensive". I've done the math on the whole thing a number of times and a number of ways. WotC actually must have done the math as well, because the numbers meet up with an awfully intentional closeness.

WotC seems to have assumed that you would have the following: Skill Focus(Truespeak), a starting Int of 18, all attribute points to Int, a +6 Headband of Intellect, a +5 inherent bonus to Int from either Wishes or from a Tome, a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, and maximum ranks in Truespeak. If you are working to acquire these at a reasonable pace (25% of your current wealth tied up in boosters for your Truespeak check/Intelligence), you will have approximately a 50% chance per utterance to affect an on-CR target at any given level for the first utterance of the day.

None of these options are terribly unreasonable - they are what any sane optimizer would have gone with as first-choice options before scouring sourcebooks - and they all come from either the PHB, the DMG, or the Tome of Magic itself. If you optimize further and throw in Item Familars and the Paragnostic Assembly bonus, a Truenamer is pretty much guaranteed to make his check.

The Utterances the Truenamer is using, however, are a crime. A Truenamer gets the equivalent of chill metal at 3rd level and it only gets worse from there. A Truenamer is curing a negative level at a time when the Cleric is throwing around ennervation. His Solid Fog equivalent shows up a whole spell level late and is pretty much the only good utterance in the entire Lexicon of the Perfected Map short of Gate.

A Quicken Utterance truenamer (so any viable truenamer build - there's only the one) could maybe shut down a Fighter long enough to kill him, but I wouldn't count on it being a sure thing. As for other challenges, a Truenamer can probably cheerlead someone to victory, but his own ability to deal with most challenges is woefully small. Truenamers are amazing at Knowledge checks, so there's little they can't provide information on (+15 total from two utterances to any Knowledge check they want and they can do it untrained), but knowing things isn't terribly useful when those things are flossing with your small intestine.

Listen to this man!

[Bonzai]

At first level, an illumian truenamer with Item Familiar, a flaw for Skill Focus, and 18 INT will have +16 to his truespeak check using only things which I came up with off the top of my head.Improved power sigils is another 1. Masterwork truespeak tool is another +2. At second, it will go up by 3, and at every level thereafter 2 more, without adding any more feats, items, class features or spells. This means that, even at first level, you can have beaten your "Crazy high skill DC's [sic]" by no less than 2 before you even think about rolling. This isn't hyper-optimising, it's grabbing the most obvious things that come to mind (Seriously, I don't think that INT 18, some ranks, a couple of feats and a race that might as well just have been an elf is stretching it too far).

Your skill check is increasing by 2 each level, not to mention Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, Universal Aptitude, a repertoire of other tricks you can pull and a friendly marshal adding his CHA to your everything, to the point where you don't even have to roll your quickened utterances any more.

And then you hit level 20. And then you spam Solars. And you win at life. That's probably where I take issue at truenamers - most of their utterances don't quite come up to standard to make up for the ability to use them ~3-4 times as many times as a wizard/cleric, and then you get SLA gate? The what?

Truenamers are not useless, and they do scale with level properly until 20th when they solve every problem with solar angels. Sure, they were badly designed, but so is, I dunno, the whole of 3.5? Most of what I hear about truenamers comes from repeated drivel by people who have never read the Tome of Magic in their lives, and the rest comes from people who played it once, didn't know how to make it work, and gave up on it. It's not quite as hard as you envisage.

[/rant]

I have read Tome of Magic, more than once thank you. I have only played a True Namer once... for about 12 levels. Maybe I don't know how to make one work. Judge for yourself. A complete campaign diary can be found here;

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1193391

At the end of the campaign I had a +62 modifier (equal CR DC being 45) and could quicken an utterance on an even level CR on a roll of 3+. I wasn't the most optimized, but I rarely ever failed my True Speech checks.

That being said, my statement still stands. I would never recommend the class without having a DM that is willing to work with you. In my case I got two homebrew feats that made the class playable. The first was a watered down item familiar feat (that just allowed me to invest the extra skill points), and the second was a feat that allowed me to target more than one target at once. Without those two feats, playing a Truenamer would have been an exercise in masochism. Even though I able to reliably quicken an utterance every round, I felt like I wasn't doing enough. There were a several encounters where I saved the day thanks to the weird quirks of the class, but a decent wizard about 4 levels behind tend to bring more to the table.

If Item Familiar is not allowed (and it often isn't), then whatever improvements you make to your character are band aid fixes that only delay the problem. Every level your chance at success will go down by 5%. Assuming an 16 starting intelligence, and the skill focus feat as your base bonuses without gear. Also assume that all your stat bonuses go into intelligence. By 15th level you would be unable to succeed against an even level CR, even if you rolled a 20. Items and gear help, but they are one time boosts. The next time you level, you lose a 5% chance at success again and will have to spend more gold to compensate.

Can they still be played? Sure. Can you enjoy the experience? Yes, though it will be in spite of the class, not because of it. The only class I felt worse at was when I tried out the Soulborn.

[Snowbluff]

That quoted text under the Law of Sequence establishes a general rule about utterances; the only difference between my reading and yours is how we define the terms "higher-level" and "lower-level." You take them to mean "spell level" whereas I think they meant "Minor, Lesser, Moderate" etc.

I'm not saying your interpretation is invalid - I'm just pointing out the unintended consequences of allowing it as a "fix." It clearly states what I interpret, but then goes on to use an example that only works for a different portion on the rules. The example is not attached to anything with an altered level, nor does it need to be in the structure of the text. :smalltongue:

I agree with that it is tricky, but I think it's worth letting it work either way. The book is a mess. Honestly, I would treat the level-altering rule as a third law, or an addendum to the Sequence one.




Certainly, but this ignores player behavior. If I heal 6 times with LWoN, that's +12 DC; a 7th time is going to be pretty painful/unlikely. But oh, I can simply heighten it - this raises the DC by 4, but it's a brand new utterance, so the LoR I've built up no longer applies - effectively, I've reduced the DC by 8 for no cost at all.
Either you use it 7 times per day, at (+2, +4, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12) or you use it at (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +4). Either way, you have diminishing returns on your effectiveness at so many times per day. I don't think that's as much of an issue, because...



Listen to this man!
He made the same complaint I did. Most utterances totally blow.

[Psyren]

Why do you have +4 twice in the first sequence?

And it is a big deal, because the second sequence can go (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +8, +10, +12) all before switching to the next grade (e.g. minor -> lesser) and repeating the whole thing all over again from scratch. It may not be unlimited healing, but the difference would starve a flea in most campaigns. 14/day may as well be at-will, never mind 28/day. It's a meaningless ceiling.



He made the same complaint I did. Most utterances totally blow.

Right - and the solution is to fix the entire class (laws, utterances and all), not to simply render the laws meaningless.

[eggynack]

Right - and the solution is to fix the entire class (laws, utterances and all), not to simply render the laws meaningless.
Pretty much. If there's any one reason that the truenamer receives as much vitriol as it does, it is all the reasons, because there isn't just one perfect reason. It's just a very poorly designed little class.

[Snowbluff]

Why do you have +4 twice in the first sequence?

And it is a big deal, because the second sequence can go (+2, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +4, +6, +8, +10, +12, +8, +10, +12) all before switching to the next grade (e.g. minor -> lesser) and repeating the whole thing all over again from scratch. It may not be unlimited healing, but the difference would starve a flea in most campaigns. 14/day may as well be at-will, never mind 28/day. It's a meaningless ceiling.

I was just pointing out it's not a -8 to the check. It's not a 0 or a minus.

Considering how stiff the checks are and how bad utterances are, still not a big deal. I wouldn't allow your interpretation or write it that way if the utterances were any good. As for At-Wills, ~5/day is the guideline for making Invocations. We're already at that point.


Right - and the solution is to fix the entire class (laws, utterances and all), not to simply render the laws meaningless.
Not meaningless, less severe. With it only working for Sequence and not Resistance, all is well as far as I am concerned. I would loopholes on the scale of the whole universe are the bare minimum for a truenamer fix.

[Psyren]

I got -8 because the DC goes from (base +12) down to (base +4.)


I wouldn't allow your interpretation or write it that way if the utterances were any good.

My interpretation - quite apart from being the exact example given on pg. 234, so it's a correct reading whether or not yours also is - is clearly intended as a way for not penalizing Truenamers who take two grades of the same utterance. They're already hurting their versatility by having two utterances that basically do the same thing - this loosening of the Law of Sequence was intended as some measure of relief for TNs who go that route.


Not meaningless, less severe.

I still consider "only" being able to do something 15-30 times per day as not being a limitation at all. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Doc_Maynot]

I now wonder how a Truenamer/Factotum Gestalt would work... =\

[Snowbluff]

I got -8 because the DC goes from (base +12) down to (base +4.)
A distinction I found meaningless and misleading. :smallsmile:



My interpretation - quite apart from being the exact example given on pg. 234, so it's a correct reading whether or not yours also is - is clearly intended as a way for not penalizing Truenamers who take two grades of the same utterance. They're already hurting their versatility by having two utterances that basically do the same thing - this loosening of the Law of Sequence was intended as some measure of relief for TNs who go that route.

Hey, intend? The Laws are directly after the level-altering Law. The intent argument falls apart, since the way I say it works is clearly the way it was intended. Not to mention that the similiarly named Utterances are not the same Utterance, so it wouldn't matter, anyway.


I still consider "only" being able to do something 15-30 times per day as not being a limitation at all. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. And I say 5 is effectively at-will. We are in agreement.


I now wonder how a Truenamer/Factotum Gestalt would work... =\ It wouldn't be very good. You can't give a bonus to your Truespeak multiple times. Your extra actions and other bonus wouldn't effectively be used on Utterances, anyway.

[Psyren]

And I say 5 is effectively at-will.

5/day is barely over once per party member, so no.


We are in agreement.

We're clearly not, stop baiting :smallsigh:

[Snowbluff]

5/day is barely over once per party member, so no.
That depends on a multitude of factors, such as effect, duration, etc. A Cleric typically has less than 5 CLWs possible at level 1, but everyone manages to live through level one. At level 11, At-Will Tentacles are considered okay for a Warlock.



We're clearly not, stop baiting :smallsigh:
Hypothetically speaking, if there was bait, didn't you already fall for it? I don't know why you would bother engaging if you thought I was doing anything other than educating and arguing. :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

I think the uses/day that constitutes at will depends on the effect. Like, how many uses counts for "at will" when you're talking about cure minor wounds? Reasonably it would have to be the maximum HP lost in a day, if we're assuming no other healing source. That ceiling might be really high. Other ceilings are probably quite a bit lower, like black tentacles. That spell won't get used outside of combat for the most part, and it won't get used much in a given combat, cause it's such a big effect. There might be some distinct qualitative difference between a lot and infinite for some effects though. For example, there's not that much difference between, say, 10 and 20 stone shapes in a day, but if you have infinite then you can change things on a macro level. I dunno if these examples are perfect, but the base idea is a logical one.

[Xuldarinar]

The truenamer is an example of what can happen without proper play testing, something the whole book suffers a bit for, but that chapter most of all.

An example: Lets say you are a level 20 grey elf truenamer. You have maximum ranks in truespeak, have put every increase in ability score in intellect after starting at int 20, skill focused, wearing a greater amulet of the silver tongue and a +6 headband of intellect and have used a +5 tome of clear thought.


Effectively Int 36.

23 + 13 (int mod) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (Greater amulet of the silver tongue) = 49. To succeed on a check on anyone in your party, assuming they are all 20th as well, will require a DC 55 Truespeak check. Good, with high levels of optimization you only need to roll at least a 6. Your utterances will still have a 30% chance of failure, the first time you use them, and it only gets tougher. Epic levels, well I'm not going to crunch the numbers but there will come a point that short of some serious cheese, you will no longer be able to use your utterances even on yourself. Now, if you gestalt with factotum, this issue becomes a lot easier to manage, but that shouldn't be required for a class to work.

The utterances themselves, I don't feel to be worth mentioning. They can prove helpful at times but if you want to deal with the fundamental language of things, I suggest you be an archivist with Truename Training, maybe a couple of utterances via feat, and grab the spells that are mentioned in the truenaming chapter of ToM along with similarly fluffed spells. Wouldn't hurt to become a fiendbinder (adapted or standard) on top of that as well if you wanted to. I guarantee you'll be stronger for it and a lot happier than being a truenamer.

[Big Fau]

The truenamer is an example of what can happen without proper play testing, something the whole book suffers a bit for, but that chapter most of all.

An example: Lets say you are a level 20 grey elf truenamer. You have maximum ranks in truespeak, have put every increase in ability score in intellect after starting at int 20, skill focused, wearing a greater amulet of the silver tongue and a +6 headband of intellect and have used a +5 tome of clear thought.


Effectively Int 36.

23 + 13 (int mod) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (Greater amulet of the silver tongue) = 49. To succeed on a check on anyone in your party, assuming they are all 20th as well, will require a DC 55 Truespeak check. Good, with high levels of optimization you only need to roll at least a 6. Your utterances will still have a 30% chance of failure, the first time you use them, and it only gets tougher. Epic levels, well I'm not going to crunch the numbers but there will come a point that short of some serious cheese, you will no longer be able to use your utterances even on yourself. Now, if you gestalt with factotum, this issue becomes a lot easier to manage, but that shouldn't be required for a class to work.

Better idea: Old Dragonwrout Kobold. As soon as you hit 18th level you can take Epic Skill Focus and get a +10 bonus on Truespeech. Given that you only need 19 levels in Truenamer you can look around and see if there's a PrC that will give you a free bonus feat for 20th level that would give you another Epic Skill Focus.


Still, that huge chance of failure is not worth the effort.

[Snowbluff]

Better idea: Old Dragonwrout Kobold. As soon as you hit 18th level you can take Epic Skill Focus and get a +10 bonus on Truespeech. Given that you only need 19 levels in Truenamer you can look around and see if there's a PrC that will give you a free bonus feat for 20th level that would give you another Epic Skill Focus.


Still, that huge chance of failure is not worth the effort.

You have UMD as a skills. Divine Insight and that one cleric spells for +20 on skills... Quick, someone calculate if the skills bonuses are worth more than equivalent healing wands!

[Psyren]

Hypothetically speaking, if there was bait, didn't you already fall for it? I don't know why you would bother engaging if you thought I was doing anything other than educating and arguing. :smallconfused:

Foolish hope, I guess. I'll end it with you then.


I think the uses/day that constitutes at will depends on the effect. Like, how many uses counts for "at will" when you're talking about cure minor wounds? Reasonably it would have to be the maximum HP lost in a day, if we're assuming no other healing source. That ceiling might be really high. Other ceilings are probably quite a bit lower, like black tentacles. That spell won't get used outside of combat for the most part, and it won't get used much in a given combat, cause it's such a big effect. There might be some distinct qualitative difference between a lot and infinite for some effects though. For example, there's not that much difference between, say, 10 and 20 stone shapes in a day, but if you have infinite then you can change things on a macro level. I dunno if these examples are perfect, but the base idea is a logical one.

Yes - and when you take that maximum and multiply it by everyone in the party, plus their animal companions, and while you're at it any random NPCs who might need patching up...

[eggynack]

Yes - and when you take that maximum and multiply it by everyone in the party, plus their animal companions, and while you're at it any random NPCs who might need patching up...
Yeah, I was pretty much intending that one to be the one where hundreds of uses might still not qualify as at will.

[squiggit]

Would at-will utterances even really be that worrisome in the first place?

[Snowbluff]

Yes - and when you take that maximum and multiply it by everyone in the party, plus their animal companions, and while you're at it any random NPCs who might need patching up...

I feel like this is in conflict with how you said UMD was a pretty sweet skill. Wouldn't it be worth more to have a Wand of CLW than to trying to meet the high DCs for spamming a healing utterance? I mean, most groups I've worked with don't give a crap about healing. Even my mildly OP PFS group knows to carry wands of CLW. How often a truenamer can heal is really irrelevant.

EDIT: Kind of ninja'd.

More formally:
Truenamers can't utter in low OP environments.
They can with more OP.
More OP Groups have access to a large amount of healing, regardless of builds.

If most Utterance fall under the 4th level spells, this is true for most of what they do.

[Psyren]

Would at-will utterances even really be that worrisome in the first place?

You mean, "why have Laws at all?" Because it's a lot better for the base system to have restrictions, and leave it to the DM to decide to remove them, than the other way around. In a high or even mid-high power campaign, the Laws may indeed be unnecessary - but not everybody wants games like that.

It's enough that you're asking the DM to try an entirely new magic system in their campaign, and one that asks quite a lot of them to begin with ("most of my offensive abilities have no saving throw.") Mention the words "infinite" and "healing" in the same sentence and you end up with a lot of knee-jerk bans.

[squiggit]

You mean, "why have Laws at all?" Because it's a lot better for the base system to have restrictions, and leave it to the DM to decide to remove them, than the other way around. In a high or even mid-high power campaign, the Laws may indeed be unnecessary - but not everybody wants games like that.

It's enough that you're asking the DM to try an entirely new magic system in their campaign, and one that asks quite a lot of them to begin with ("most of my offensive abilities have no saving throw.") Mention the words "infinite" and "healing" in the same sentence and you end up with a lot of knee-jerk bans.

This concern would make sense if we weren't playing a game where... wizards, clerics and druids already exist.

[Psyren]

This concern would make sense if we weren't playing a game where... wizards, clerics and druids already exist.

All I can really say to this without derailing the thread any further is that there is a vast gulf between potential power and actual power; the existence of the former is not carte blanche to throw the limitations of every sub-T1 class out the window.

[kirerellim]

It is a good concept with a terrible execution ><

[squiggit]

All I can really say to this without derailing the thread any further is that there is a vast gulf between potential power and actual power; the existence of the former is not carte blanche to throw the limitations of every sub-T1 class out the window.

When those limits make a class arbitrarily terrible and removing them wouldn't necessarily leave the class in a problematic position in the opposite direction afterwards I don't see why not.

[Psyren]

When those limits make a class arbitrarily terrible and removing them wouldn't necessarily leave the class in a problematic position in the opposite direction afterwards I don't see why not.

Whether functionally infinite (or abitrarily large) healing, or dispelling, or buffing etc. is a problem depends on the campaign - but because of that, it should be left up to that individual DM to decide rather than being baked into the class itself. They could have given the Warlock a healing invocation after all, or made the Dragon Shaman's aura take people back to full - they consciously chose not to do these things, even though both of these classes are similarly weak. Would it break anything? Probably not, but the purpose of the laws is so that they could balance utterances in line with spells/powers rather than invocations or incarnum.

And while the more traditional casters can get large amounts of a given spell effect per day too, there is typically a tradeoff - they are giving up whatever else they could have prepared in those slots or giving up uses/day that could be spent on other things in their repertoire. But utterances only care how many times you've used each particular one - if you strain the universe by using a healing utterance 16 times, it won't affect your ability to fly or paralyze or blind people.

(The fact that they failed to do so properly is another matter, of course.)