Bladebound Magus: Anyone else played it?

[QuackParker]

There is a PC in my game playing a Bladebound Magus. Anyone else played one or had one in a campaign? We're approaching lv 7 and he has no problem defeating monsters 3 or 4 challenge ratings higher alone... He's an excellent min/maxer, but I suspect he may be fudging the rules somehow. Thoughts?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound

[Drachasor]

A Magus can do a ton of damage, which is probably what you are noticing. But you'd have to be more specific. Critting on a Shocking Grasp to deal 14d6 + double weapon damage can kill a lot of things. Assuming he's going with Intensified Shocking Grasps.

On the other hand the Bladebound Magus is far from the best Archetype. A custom magic weapon is usually better. You don't have to split your Arcana with your weapon then (but at 19th level you make up for this). Better is a Spell Storing Weapon. Then you could potentially do 21d6 + weapon damage at 7th level on a Crit.

On oddity of the Magus is that they are made to cast in melee, but their casting will still provoke AoO unless they cast on the defensive (which PF makes harder at low levels). Your player might not be doing this, but it is a rather tedious requirement, imho. Duskblades, for instance, don't need to do this.

Assuming crits are the problem, you could possibly give him bonus Arcana and make it so he doesn't double spell damage on a crit with the weapon (or only does it on a nat 20). Net result would probably be using Spell Strike more often, but less damage per hit. It also means the player doesn't feel awful for using something that isn't a Scimitar.

[QuackParker]

A Magus can do a ton of damage, which is probably what you are noticing. But you'd have to be more specific. Critting on a Shocking Grasp to deal 14d6 + double weapon damage can kill a lot of things. Assuming he's going with Intensified Shocking Grasps.

On the other hand the Bladebound Magus is far from the best Archetype. A custom magic weapon is usually better. You don't have to split your Arcana with your weapon then (but at 19th level you make up for this). Better is a Spell Storing Weapon. Then you could potentially do 21d6 + weapon damage at 7th level on a Crit.

On oddity of the Magus is that they are made to cast in melee, but their casting will still provoke AoO unless they cast on the defensive (which PF makes harder at low levels). Your player might not be doing this, but it is a rather tedious requirement, imho. Duskblades, for instance, don't need to do this.

Assuming crits are the problem, you could possibly give him bonus Arcana and make it so he doesn't double spell damage on a crit with the weapon (or only does it on a nat 20). Net result would probably be using Spell Strike more often, but less damage per hit. It also means the player doesn't feel awful for using something that isn't a Scimitar.

Much too late to change the crits on spell damage. To clarify, are you saying if he casts shocking grasp for instance and attacks, that provokes an attack of opportunity?

[Drachasor]

Much too late to change the crits on spell damage. To clarify, are you saying if he casts shocking grasp for instance and attacks, that provokes an attack of opportunity?

The casting will provoke UNLESS he casts it defensively. That requires a DC 15+2*Spell Level Concentration Check (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration) (d20+Caster Level+Spellcasting_Bonus -- That's int bonus for a Magu). So a 7th level Magus with an Intelligence of 20 would roll d20+12 and need to get a 17 or higher for a 1st level spell. So that's a 5 or higher. If using Spell Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Spell-Combat-Ex-) they can add a bonus to this roll up to their Int Bonus, but then take that same number as a penalty on all attacks for that round. If he has the Combat Casting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/combat-casting---final) Feat he gets a +4 bonus (so on a 1 he'd get a 1+16=17 and wouldn't need to roll).

Note that I don't think this is a good way to do balance. I don't think it is very fun and it makes being a Magus more tedious. Needing to roll every time you use a spell in melee....when you class is designed to use spells in melee? Kind of stupid. Though in fairness I despise mechanics that result in a lot of extra rolling. I hate increased handling time. HATE HATE HATE! That said, if he has Combat Casting and an Int of 20 or better, then he doesn't need to roll for level 1 spells. If he has a Concentration Check modifier of +18 or better, he doesn't need to roll for level 2 spells. If it is +20 or better level 3 and so on.

Personally, I still say if the problem is crits and spell damage being too high, then you should work with the player and change it. The Magus does have the ability to do insane amounts of burst damage which can be a problem. But if you did change it then talking it over with your player and letting him tweak his character would make sense. Personally I think letting him have 1+Level+Int Bonus Arcana would be fair, then letting him adjust feats as he wants. That's just me though. But when I DM I usually reserve the right to tweak things if there is a problem, but I also make sure to let the player adjust their character accordingly. I also adjust things up if a player's build isn't doing well -- this usually enables concepts the game doesn't readily support.

[Kudaku]

Could you post his character sheet, or barring that a breakdown of his build?

I've had a fairly min/maxed Bladebound Magus in my RotRL campaign and while he did very good damage, he didn't really break the game in half.

It should be noted that the DD bladebound magus really shines between ~lvl 3 and 10, and then starts to taper off.

[Drachasor]

Could you post his character sheet, or barring that a breakdown of his build?

I've had a fairly min/maxed Bladebound Magus in my RotRL campaign and while he did very good damage, he didn't really break the game in half.

It should be noted that the DD bladebound magus really shines between ~lvl 3 and 10, and then starts to taper off.

Mostly because there aren't really any good 2nd level spells for them to use that do 1d6/level damage and can be intensified. So they are stuck with Shocking Grasp -- perhaps Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp (but that's a third level spell).

Though I suppose a Magus could get Quick Draw, 5 or so Spell Storing Scimitars, and plenty of level 1 Pearls of Power. Then between battles put a Shocking Grasp into each sword. PoP (1st) are very cheap.

[Kudaku]

Mostly because there aren't really any good 2nd level spells for them to use that do 1d6/level damage and can be intensified. So they are stuck with Shocking Grasp -- perhaps Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp (but that's a third level spell).

Though I suppose a Magus could get Quick Draw, 5 or so Spell Storing Scimitars, and plenty of level 1 Pearls of Power. Then between battles put a Shocking Grasp into each sword. PoP (1st) are very cheap.

I found that while the magus spell list doesn't really have any great candidates for spellstrike at level 2, they get some really good defensive spells.

The magus in my group typically prepared Intensified Shocking Grasps (magical lineage cheese ftw) in his first level slot(s) and Mirror Image, Blur etc in his 2nd level spell slots. Third level typically had a mix of utility (fly, Burst of Speed), buffs (haste), and emergency healing (vampiric touch).

[Drachasor]

I found that while the magus spell list doesn't really have any great candidates for spellstrike at level 2, they get some really good defensive spells.

The magus in my group typically prepared Intensified Shocking Grasps (magical lineage cheese ftw) in his first level slot(s) and Mirror Image, Blur etc in his 2nd level spell slots. Third level typically had a mix of utility (fly, Burst of Speed), buffs (haste), and emergency healing (vampiric touch).

True. The available buffs are quite good.

My only major Magus complaints are:
1) Too focused on spell crits. This alone severely limits weapon choices.
2) Combat style is a bit too limited. The requirement for one-handed weapons is annoying. And I'm not a big fan of Spell Combat encouraging full attacks either. This combined with (1) makes the Scimitar the best weapon bar none.
3) Needing concentration checks for doing your main schtick, melee spells in melee combat is pretty lame.

Archetypes can change this up a little, but overall it is too tightly defined, imho (which hurts some concepts and archetypes needlessly). It would have been nice to see more support for Hexcrafter using Hair, two-handed weapons, and so forth. I mean this as equally viable builds.

Would have been nice to see some archetypes that trade out spell combat for two-handed weapons and more arcana and other stuff like that.

[Kudaku]

I'd argue the rapier is a better option than the scimitar for a dexterity magus unless you take Dervish Dance into account. Dervish Dance dramatically catapults the scimitar ahead until the price of an agile rapier becomes a viable option, and then the balance shifts back toward the rapier.

There's been some fairly blatant hints that the ACG will have new ways to add Dexterity to damage, so hopefully the scimitar magus will be less prevalent once that's been published.

That said, I think if Spellstrike took critical hit multiplier into account as well as threat range for resolving spellstriking critical hits, that would make some really interesting build concepts more viable...

[Drachasor]

That said, I think if Spellstrike took critical hit multiplier into account as well as threat range for resolving spellstriking critical hits, that would make some really interesting build concepts more viable...

The only problem with that, imho, is that it dramatically increases the swinginess of combat. A Crit with a Scythe would be doing 40d6 damage, basically. And 140 damage + Weapon Crit at 10th level is pretty insane. And that's without any particular effort.

It's a bit better if you get more arcana and hence more spells per day. Evens out the damage a bit more than. I think that's probably better for the game.

As it is now, a Scimitar would still be very good even if spells only ever crit on a 20. Dex-based builds are just that good.

PF is very weird though. In general they seem to want Crits to matter a lot for Gishes. The Eldritch Knight gets something like that at level 10. The Hell Knight Enforcer/Signifier doesn't get anything like that, but thy don't get anything to combine spells and melee anyhow. I'd like to see some non-crit based options that combine spells and steel for Gishes.

[DarkSonic1337]

Spells per day is not an issue for the Magus as is, so lowering his damage output to increase his spells per day is...actually kind of a nerf. It's not like the damage the Magus puts out is overpowered.

Btw spell storing is not the same as spellstrike. Hitting an opponent with a spell storing scimitar and getting a critical hit will not multiply the spell damage.

Honestly I think a better approach would be to just make spell combat not require an open hand. Then suddenly REACH Magus becomes a thing and could then rival the crit fisher (kinda like Spiked Chain Duskblades). As for plain old two handed weapons....well I rather like that crit fishers got a bone this time around (personally I think Duskblade's Arcane Channeling should've multiplied the spell on a crit too).

@The OP. It might be a little early, but try throwing monsters that have spell resistance, throw multiple monsters into the mix, throw crit immune monsters (if he's using a keen scimitar like I think he is), try ranged attackers. Also what does the rest of the party look like? If the Magus is causing issues, either the rest of the group are playing very weak classes or he's just playing at a higher optimization level (could be both). Maybe he could just tone it down (or help other players bring the optimization level up if you're comfortable with that).

[Drachasor]

Spells per day is not an issue for the Magus as is, so lowering his damage output to increase his spells per day is...actually kind of a nerf. It's not like the damage the Magus puts out is overpowered.

Btw spell storing is not the same as spellstrike. Hitting an opponent with a spell storing scimitar and getting a critical hit will not multiply the spell damage.

Spells per day still matter. It's easy to exhaust their 1st level spells and Arcana if they are using them every attack or close to it. PoP can help some with that and really make it a non-issue. And it lets you use your Arcana for other things.

Yes, Spell Storing isn't the same as Spell Strike. But you can use both together on the same attack. Another 10d6 damage is another 10d6 damage. Even at 10th level it isn't too hard to burn through your attack spells (buffing is a bit easy to manage), and that includes Arcana.


Honestly I think a better approach would be to just make spell combat not require an open hand. Then suddenly REACH Magus becomes a thing and could then rival the crit fisher (kinda like Spiked Chain Duskblades). As for plain old two handed weapons....well I rather like that crit fishers got a bone this time around (personally I think Duskblade's Arcane Channeling should've multiplied the spell on a crit too).

I think it would be best if you got to choose a style when you take your first level. That would have been nice.

[watchwood]

Spells per day still matter. It's easy to exhaust their 1st level spells and Arcana if they are using them every attack or close to it. PoP can help some with that and really make it a non-issue. And it lets you use your Arcana for other things.
A ring of wizardry goes a long way towards fixing this. And if he's smart he'll be using endurance attack spells like Frostbite against multiple attackers, and keeping several damage type spells available for use against things immune to electricity.

[Drachasor]

A ring of wizardry goes a long way towards fixing this. And if he's smart he'll be using endurance attack spells like Frostbite against multiple attackers, and keeping several damage type spells available for use against things immune to electricity.

Pearls of Power are just a lot cheaper, that's all. You can get 20 of them for the price of a Ring of Wizardy I, and they don't use an item slot. If you cast a lot of of Shocking Grasp, then you could easily prepare 4 at level 10. Use 4 every fight, and then get them back with a Pearl of Power 1st afterwards. If you need more than fight, use an Arcana.

And if you want to get fancy, Quick Draw and some Scimitars of Spell Storing let you double the number of Shocking Grasps -- though those don't do as much on a crit. On the other hand, you can Spellstrike Shocking Grasp and use the Storing's Grasp on the same attack. Pretty nice.

I wouldn't say there's much need for a Ring of Wizardry.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Magus is just a glass cannon class. It puts out high damage (though only if it crits -- I also HATE the massive crit focus of the class, I wish it didn't rely on them so much). While say...a summoner can have a pet that's better than the party fighter and gets all of the win conjuration spells and various buffs -- sometimes earlier than even the wizard -- and can also summon in more help is vastly VASTLY more powerful... Some people see the Magus's very high single hit damage and freak out. That's...literally their only real purpose.

Bladebound is decent, but not being able to enhance the Black Blade on your own (other than w/ arcane pool, like w/ any weapon) means it eventually becomes crappy compared to weapons you find as loot. And it costs you a key early arcana and permanently locks you out of getting a familiar, one of the best class features there is in mid-/late game (here's a hint: it gets your skill ranks and wands are cheap). So BB is actually an underpowered Magus archetype. Not massively so, but definitely a step down.

RE: Concentrating: Note that in PF, if you are moving up to a foe to deliver a melee touch spell (ie, move + standard to cast/spellstrike), you can cast the spell while out of melee, move up, and then deliver the touch (or spellstrike, in the Magus's case) w/o needing concentration. Won't help for spell combat (that's what the Lunge* feat and 5 ft steps are for!), but worthwhile to keep in mind.

As for Magus spells, IMO the best ones besides shocking grasp are Frostbite (if you're not doing lots of metamagic and trying to not use up too many spells, over time it does quite a bit of damage), Frigid Touch (a crit staggers the foe for a whole minute no save!), Bladed Dash (combine w/ Spell Combat and you can full attack, attack again, and move w/o provoking, in whatever order you prefer. It's like a shorter range pounce w/ none of the charging hindrances that also doubles as a fighting retreat when needed), and Force Hook Charge (unfailingly move to melee from quite a range and then full attack, it's like Link Hook Shot from Legend of Zelda).
All but FHC (which is level 3) are level 1 or 2 spells.

*Or, if a Hexcrafter (which every Magus in his right mind should be :smallwink:), you can use Prehensile Hair to deliver from safety, though that'll stick you with an awful 20/x2 crit.

[QuackParker]

He's chosen very carefully abilities to ensure he gets his crits. So the enchantments he adds to his weapons, usually we can expect keen added on an already high crit range. Can he get a 15+ with frequence and confirm? Absolutely. Shocking grasp is a favorite he uses. To be fair, let the judgement roll in, I introduced mythic and everyone has attained one rank in it. For the other PCs, the extra attack or the mythic surge make little difference. But for this guy, it basically means he'll throw everything he has into two attacks to kill the boss.

[QuackParker]

But I'm way too far along to take away his mythic, he's the only one that really accomplished truly mythic goals in the first place, and I think I'll be seen as punishing good character building to limit his spell crits.

[Kudaku]

Sounds like you have one optimizing player in a party of guys who kind of bumble along.

What's the rest of the party playing?

[QuackParker]

There are two other people that play consistently. One is a cleric that has specialized in playing as a tank, a role he was talked into I don't think he enjoys, and the other is a elementalurgist druid. Both pale in comparison in terms of damage output. Another guy that comes is an archer fighter. He does consistent damage, but when one guy kills all the major enemies in a few hits, it leaves the others fighting minions for a while. So to restate, their is one massive damage dealer, a tanky cleric, a mediocre elemental druid, an ok archer, but no one filling the rogue or AoE caster roles. Meaning , they spend forever fighting easy minions, but finish boss fight in 1-3 rounds.

[Alent]

There are two other people that play consistently. One is a cleric that has specialized in playing as a tank, a role he was talked into I don't think he enjoys, and the other is a elementalurgist druid. Both pale in comparison in terms of damage output. Another guy that comes is an archer fighter. He does consistent damage, but when one guy kills all the major enemies in a few hits, it leaves the others fighting minions for a while. So to restate, their is one massive damage dealer, a tanky cleric, a mediocre elemental druid, an ok archer, but no one filling the rogue or AoE caster roles. Meaning , they spend forever fighting easy minions, but finish boss fight in 1-3 rounds.

Maybe this is just too much anecdotal experience, but in my PF games, Archer builds always blow the magus out of the water. The other optimizer in my group likes to save up for a +strmod acidic compound oathbow +1 and go to town on stuff. He could reliably oneshot every CR appropriate dragon we came across, too. I can't speak to his exact build, but I know it was basically just "Swear an oath", deadly aim, manyshot, multishot, etc.

I can't speak to the Cleric, but... Elementalurgist Druid looks like a utility buffer... is he wanting to contribute to everyone else's damage or was he thinking that Druid-as-bard would have good personal damage output?

[QuackParker]

Hard to say what the druid wants to accomplish. He was disatisfied as a monk, so he changed to a druid and then retrained into the elementalurgist archetype. Its a weird situation as he does help boost other people's damage, but the magus doesnt need a boost. The archer, the few sessions he shows up, does fairly high damage, it just presently pales in comparison to the magus.

[Arbane]

In a few more levels, spell resistance will start making his life difficult.

Other than that, I've got no good advice. One group I was in had a Bladebound Magus, and he did indeed do huge damage. So the GM just gave us huger enemies. :-P

Maybe give the other PCs some better weapons and such for loot, to help them keep up?

[StreamOfTheSky]

It sounds like you've already identified the problem, and the solution.

Magus excels at killing single targets dead. The solution is to stop using solo encounters, have numerous enemies all the time.

It sucks not being able to use a BBEG at all, but Magus is hardly the only class that completely ruins those encounters. Witches and pretty much every save-or-lose caster also does; Paladins make solo BBEG fights curb stomps (BANG's - Big Annoying Neutral Guys - work, though), etc...

[lightningcat]

I've played a rapier Bladebound Magus, and focused on spell combat and crits. It was a true glass cannon build.

Final fight of the campaign I dealt some decent damage at range before the BBEG cast spell immunity for all of my ranged spells, and when i got into combat I got one round of combat (doing as much damage as everyone else so far) before getting one-shotted, (300 damage to all enemies in a 30' reach). Luckily I had a well buffed Cohort that was able to take the hits and got in the killing blow.

Group encounters (not a Boss with minions) where my character's true bane for that game. As well as high damage enemies, weather they had much in the way of hit points.

[Averis Vol]

I'm also playing a DD bladebound magus right now, and yea, even without crits, and my DM's wonky house rules, I'm doing something like 50-60 damage a round with an AC of 27 (so many buffs dude, soooo many :smallbiggrin:). I have bad luck with rolls, I think I've only crit twice in 8 levels, but the sheer number of level one spells means I can do this all day.

Besides massive enemies with absolute butt tons of health (we just fought a barb simulacrum who soaked up like, three hundred somethin damage) he just started throwing ranged enemies at us. For the most part, we have a 2 man party, a magus and a reach fighter, so this was actually really effective (he had a firing squad of musket masters on 20 foot roofs. the fighter couldn't even climb up), so try something like that. Don't let your enemies get within stab happys reach, at least not before they unload from 200+ feet away for a few rounds.