quality vs quantity

[Somensjev]

ok, i was just thinking, when putting a party up against enemies, do most people put them up against large groups of weaker enemies, or small groups of stronger enemies?

and is there a limit to how weak and big the enemy groups can be? i mean, how does a large group of goblins fair against a level 5 party? level 10? 15? 20?

sorry if this sounds weird, it's just random thoughts, and i'm not really sure how to say it right

[TrollCapAmerica]

At a certain point large numbers of weak creatures tend to become irrelevant to high enough level PCs and if used wrong it can be a complete boring chore to handle them

I like weenie rushes as a warm up to later fights.They make a party alter their tactics a bit to try and get through the fight in an expedient method without blowing too many resources.Beyond that I much prefer a smaller group that can match the PCs dynamic in a fight and keep things properly interesting

[Silentone98]

I swear I saw this topic a few days ago(same/similar title),.. but it states it is from today?



Anyhow.. I used to throw beefed up monsters at my party because they chewed thru them too easily... I later realized I made a mistake and combat shouldn't take more than 2-3 rounds(4 at most?). Barring maybe a boss scene type deal...
Players don't play DnD to play chess with dragons... at least mine don't- but at the same time you need to provide a challenge...

I hate this because it means presenting as enemies what I would call glass cannons... but your party will get bored if combat drags out too long.

So as far as quality or quantity? you need both, applied at the right times. probably not the answer you want, but it's likely the best answer.

like your 'large group of goblins' I wouldn't even consider for a lvl 1 party if it was truly LARGE, unless they had options to deal with it..
maybe at lvl 2 or 3? depends on the party at that point...
at lvl 10+ theres no question that a large group of goblins would be considered more of a "*Looks at DM*, Your joking right?" .. which could be fun in moderation

add a few HD and maybe a fiendish template to them tho.. maybe you'd have something worth throwing at them

[Vogonjeltz]

ok, i was just thinking, when putting a party up against enemies, do most people put them up against large groups of weaker enemies, or small groups of stronger enemies?

and is there a limit to how weak and big the enemy groups can be? i mean, how does a large group of goblins fair against a level 5 party? level 10? 15? 20?

sorry if this sounds weird, it's just random thoughts, and i'm not really sure how to say it right

This really depends on the party and the effect I'm going for.

Multiple smaller enemies increased action economy and are capable of splitting the party up.

A large solo enemy may hit like a truck, but it will also be much more vulnerable to encounter ending abilities and spells.

So long as these small enemies have a greater than natural 20 chance of hitting the lower range ACs, I'd say they are still a threat. Unless I just want to give a particular player a chance to show off, I'd make sure there's at least a possibility that these enemies can kill them. Maybe that means gang up tactics where there's multiple enemies engaging each player, or a small squad blocks while back tankers use archery, or divide and conquer where the enemies make an effort to single out a character wearing no armor and focus fire them.

[Somensjev]

i actually thought of this topic after looking at that damn crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

and i was wondering how many giant crabs i'd need to present a challenge to 6 level 10 players, and if it would be better to send them against a large amount of giant crabs, or increase the crabs sizes and send them against a small collection of gigantic crabs

[Silentone98]

i actually thought of this topic after looking at that damn crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

and i was wondering how many giant crabs i'd need to present a challenge to 6 level 10 players, and if it would be better to send them against a large amount of giant crabs, or increase the crabs sizes and send them against a small collection of gigantic crabs


1 giant mother crab and thousands of tiny baby crabs...

[Killer Angel]

ok, i was just thinking, when putting a party up against enemies, do most people put them up against large groups of weaker enemies, or small groups of stronger enemies?


As the Group grows up in levels, the tendency is small groups of stronger enemies.
But notable exceptions exist (Tucker's Kobolds)

[Malcador]

Some weak creatures can make great use of the action economy when in large numbers; others cannot. Creatures whose attacks are rendered obsolete by one or two spells aren't good for hordes (for example, once the players can fly, anything without a good ranged attack or flight of its own usually dies quickly).

As I understand them, Tucker's kobolds are famous for their superior preparation rather than for their good use of large numbers. Lots of kobolds are obviously better at preparing traps than just a few kobolds, but their challenge comes from the traps rather than from the numbers.

The "happy medium" for enemies is usually to have about as many enemies as there are players, and for each enemy to be at about the same power level as the players. When the enemies are too few ("boss" encounters), the players gang up on them; when the enemies are too weak, they can't meaningfully harm the players.

[Skysaber]

My brother in his Wednesday night games routinely uses absurdly low-level threats against his level 22 party...

... and routinely has to pull his punches to avoid TPK.

Current combat is a good example. Two hundred goblins with 2 levels of barbarian each, four 7th level goblin clerics for counterspelling duties, and a couple leaders.

One of those leaders has 10 levels of Warsinger, so each and every one of those goblins has +15 BAB, so all of a sudden those completely nonmagical javelins they are throwing go from yawn-worthy to a hail of sharpened death.

Seriously, a few of the right buff spells here or there, one or two of the right bards or bardic PrCs, and these epic characters toting major artifacts run screaming from stuff you'd ordinary slay hordes of by sneezing too hard.

The D&D is rife with buffs of various sorts. Hordes of weenies can use those to become stiff opposition at any level.

And seriously, optimization works both ways.

[Killer Angel]

As I understand them, Tucker's kobolds are famous for their superior preparation rather than for their good use of large numbers. Lots of kobolds are obviously better at preparing traps than just a few kobolds, but their challenge comes from the traps rather than from the numbers.


Few kobolds would be less effective, but yes, that, and terrain features. All things that contributes to the final CR.

[Kudaku]

Quantity has a quality all its own.

I find that the trick is to use enemies that are individually weak but somewhat durable, and mostly pose a threat when ganging up - low level rogue/clerics are a decent example.

Individually they have poor AC, low health and sub-par attack bonuses.
However, if you slap on a few AB buffs, let them gang up on and flank PCs, suddenly that sneak attack die comes in handy.

[TuggyNE]

My brother in his Wednesday night games routinely uses absurdly low-level threats against his level 22 party...

... and routinely has to pull his punches to avoid TPK.

Current combat is a good example. Two hundred goblins with 2 levels of barbarian each, four 7th level goblin clerics for counterspelling duties, and a couple leaders.

One of those leaders has 10 levels of Warsinger, so each and every one of those goblins has +15 BAB, so all of a sudden those completely nonmagical javelins they are throwing go from yawn-worthy to a hail of sharpened death.

Well, if those two leaders are each level 20 that's (notionally) an EL 23 encounter. :smalltongue:


Seriously, a few of the right buff spells here or there, one or two of the right bards or bardic PrCs, and these epic characters toting major artifacts run screaming from stuff you'd ordinary slay hordes of by sneezing too hard.

The D&D is rife with buffs of various sorts. Hordes of weenies can use those to become stiff opposition at any level.

Bards are impressive, certainly, and marshals, but I have some trouble imagining that a level 22 party has no good AoEs or dispels with which to annihilate their foes in a few standard actions. I mean, Quickened area dispel magic plus fireball wipes out a pretty substantial chunk of them, especially if you Widen both.

Ah well, that's enough backseat spellcasting for now.

[Killer Angel]

Quantity has a quality all its own.


What was true once, is less true when you face strong magic (or a sufficiently advanced military technology).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I use both. Hordes are good for rewarding area attacks, WWA, AoO builds, etc... And to make focus firing less rewarding.

Powerful monsters are more interesting, though action economy makes solo bosses pretty terrible encounters IME, so I prefer "boss teams" of 2-4 creatures a bit weaker than I'd have made a singular BBEG.

My favorite thing to do, though, is "waves" of enemies whenever it can make sense (usual reason is the sound of the combat drawing in other monsters from the area). Rather than overwhelm the party by throwing the kitchen sink at them all at once (or conversely, keeping them from debuffing and battle field controlling all the enemies from the start, as well as getting full use out of their short duration buffs), they'll take down one group of foes and then another reaches the fray, and then possibly a 3rd group....
Most people are accustomed to 3.5E's very quick 1-3 round "typical" combat. Throwing an ever expanding brawl that just won't end at them really messes up some people's plans. :smallsmile:

[Particle_Man]

I imagine that a bunch of mooks led by someone with the right White Raven maneuvers can be scary. Especially if the mooks also have White Raven maneuvers.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mooks work a lot better when they don't have to actually roll against the PCs' defenses.

Magic missile, minor AoE effects (entangle is super awesome), etc...
Or if they have the feat to do it safely, any combat maneuver that's a strength check and doesn't factor in attacking (or only attacks touch AC) or BAB at all. Like Bull Rush or Trip. Unless the PC is built for that maneuver, the mook should actually have a fair shot of winning.
Readied actions to shoot mages or use a whip to disarm their material component when they try to cast can also be good.

EDIT: And the one sure-fire way to get the PCs to concern themselves with the mooks is if the mooks are healing and buffing the actual threats.

[Particle_Man]

Mook warlocks shattering the PCs' stuff might be interesting. 1s always fail saves after all . . .

[Skysaber]

Well, if those two leaders are each level 20 that's (notionally) an EL 23 encounter.

Nope. None of that. Nothing in that group is higher than 15, and precious few of them, nor do they get involved beyond a single use of a special ability - which hacks a decent amount off of their CR.

The encounter is against a bunch of lvl 2 barbarians. Everything else hides or runs away if discovered, and is there only for minimal support duties. They could be replaced by scrolls if Bardic Music could be put in scroll form.


Bards are impressive, certainly, and marshals, but I have some trouble imagining that a level 22 party has no good AoEs or dispels with which to annihilate their foes in a few standard actions. I mean, Quickened area dispel magic plus fireball wipes out a pretty substantial chunk of them, especially if you Widen both.

4 clerics just barely high enough to get a couple of Dispel Magics off, and a feat that grants auto-success when counterspelling with Dispel Magic, having nothing to do with their actions but ready an action for counterspell.

It shuts down the party's caster's nicely.

[Dread_Head]

4 clerics just barely high enough to get a couple of Dispel Magics off, and a feat that grants auto-success when counterspelling with Dispel Magic, having nothing to do with their actions but ready an action for counterspell.

It shuts down the party's caster's nicely.

The feat Divine Defiance (Fiendish Codex II) lets you burn a turn attempt to counterspell as an immediate action which is really nice for these purposes.

[ace rooster]

Endless waves of low level speed bumps are going to be a bit dull if they are just trying to kill the PCs, as they are going to be a walkover, and not memorable, or you risk having a PC killed by a mook, which is generally not fun without other factors. The other factors are where things get interesting. If the fight is not just old navy rules (first to die loses) then lots of mooks can be entertaining. The encounter with the slavers is a good example, as they don't have to even damage the PCs to "win" the encounter.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The thing is there's a line when quantity no longer has the quality to be a threat. I could make a group of say 12th level NPC's be a significant threat to a group of 16th level PC's, using numbers and proper tactics, But 8th level NPC's are simply speed bumps to guys twice their level.

But as a general rule an encounter with four to six enemies two or three CR's below the party* makes for a better fight then a couple enemies of equal CR or a single foe two or three CR's above.

*presuming a party of four*

[TuggyNE]

4 clerics just barely high enough to get a couple of Dispel Magics off, and a feat that grants auto-success when counterspelling with Dispel Magic, having nothing to do with their actions but ready an action for counterspell.

Auto-success? Whaaat? :smalleek: What kind of feat is that, and why do none of the handbooks mention it at all?

[Flickerdart]

i actually thought of this topic after looking at that damn crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

and i was wondering how many giant crabs i'd need to present a challenge to 6 level 10 players, and if it would be better to send them against a large amount of giant crabs, or increase the crabs sizes and send them against a small collection of gigantic crabs
A level ten character might easily have an AC of ~30, at which point no amount of base crabs are going to accomplish very much. They would also have access to flight, letting them pick off crabs at their leisure.

[Silentone98]

....make them fiendish crabs.... and give them some mad jumping skills due to a crazed wizards experiment... that'll teach them flying players!

lol

[ace rooster]

My brother in his Wednesday night games routinely uses absurdly low-level threats against his level 22 party...

... and routinely has to pull his punches to avoid TPK.

Current combat is a good example. Two hundred goblins with 2 levels of barbarian each, four 7th level goblin clerics for counterspelling duties, and a couple leaders.

One of those leaders has 10 levels of Warsinger, so each and every one of those goblins has +15 BAB, so all of a sudden those completely nonmagical javelins they are throwing go from yawn-worthy to a hail of sharpened death.

Seriously, a few of the right buff spells here or there, one or two of the right bards or bardic PrCs, and these epic characters toting major artifacts run screaming from stuff you'd ordinary slay hordes of by sneezing too hard.

The D&D is rife with buffs of various sorts. Hordes of weenies can use those to become stiff opposition at any level.

And seriously, optimization works both ways.

Those tactics shouldn't work, all those buffs are very limited range, so that horde would have to be tight... tight enough to all be in a single sunburst. When that gets counterspelled you switch to your staff of fire (any spell from it will be effective), as it can't be counterspelled. :smallcool: These encounters are why evokers exist (and are considered to suck, as very few DMs will run these encounters).

[Silentone98]

Those tactics shouldn't work, all those buffs are very limited range, so that horde would have to be tight... tight enough to all be in a single sunburst. When that gets counterspelled you switch to your staff of fire (any spell from it will be effective), as it can't be counterspelled. :smallcool: These encounters are why evokers exist (and are considered to suck, as very few DMs will run these encounters).


Wasn't a bards music limited only to who could hear it? Not that I like the idea of using bards... flavor wise I dislike them.
still... seems the most likely form of buffs when talking of a small army sized group.

[Zetapup]

Wasn't a bards music limited only to who could hear it? Not that I like the idea of using bards... flavor wise I dislike them.
still... seems the most likely form of buffs when talking of a small army sized group.

I believe the standard way to get around that restriction is to play a very loud instrument (I think the alpenhorn is one that can be heard for a mile? I'm not sure). It's not relevant for the war chanter though, as the inspire legion ability only affects allies within 60 ft.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I believe the standard way to get around that restriction is to play a very loud instrument (I think the alpenhorn is one that can be heard for a mile? I'm not sure).

The Amplify spell from SpC is also great for expanding range on bardic music. In addition to its most typical use of countering Silence.