Price of Custom magic item that grants 1 Wish/day?

[SinsI]

If you were to allow such an item, what would you price it?

[Crake]

If you were to allow such an item, what would you price it?

By the DMG guidelines it would be 9x17x1800(command word)/5 (1/day) for the base price

Then you would add an extra cost on it would be 5000x5 (xp -> gold conversion) x50 (unlimited uses, but limited per day)

so total, it would cost... 55,080+1,250,000, or 1,305,080gp

Edit: It's worth noting that that would be it's market value. The cost to create it would be much more painful, since that 5000xp cost for wish would need to be paid 50 times, so you might be hard pressed to find someone who is willing to invest that amount of xp.

For reference, it's creation cost would be... 27540gp+252203xp

Edit2: Oh, and don't worry about it being considered an epic item, items are deemed epic when their base cost exceeds 200,000gp, not their market value, so the base cost of this item is still well below that.

[Windstorm]

Well, lets begin by figuring out the absolute minimum:

9th level spell * 17th level caster * 1800 (command word) * 1/5 (charges per day) + [ 5gp * (5000xp * 50 charges equivalent) ] = Cost
so (9 * 17 *1800 *0.2) + [5*250000]
or 55080 + 1250000

market price is 1,305,080 gp, or most of the gold of a mid-range epic level character.

for the purposes of item creation, base price is 55,080 gp, but you have to provide the 250,000 xp needed to craft the item. (nearly the entire xp pool of a 23rd level character)

personally? I wouldn't ever allow it except as a cursed artifact; mostly because you're asking for an expenses-paid-for 1 per day of one of the most powerful spells in the entire system.

edit: swordsaged :smallfrown:

[Kudaku]

Using Crake's estimate: If you use the item once per day to create a 25 000 non-magical item and sell said item, it would become profitable in... ~52 days.

[SinsI]

personally? I wouldn't ever allow it except as a cursed artifact; mostly because you're asking for an expenses-paid-for 1 per day of one of the most powerful spells in the entire system.

edit: swordsaged :smallfrown:
But after 17th level there are plenty of ways to get XP-free wishes - distilled joy/symbol of pain + Spell clock/Magic Trap, Thought Bottles, dweomerkeeper class, level drain/restoration...

[Drachasor]

By the DMG guidelines it would be 9x17x1800(command word)/5 (1/day) for the base price

Then you would add an extra cost on it would be 5000x5 (xp -> gold conversion) x50 (unlimited uses, but limited per day)

so total, it would cost... 55,080+1,250,000, or 1,305,080gp

Edit: It's worth noting that that would be it's market value. The cost to create it would be much more painful, since that 5000xp cost for wish would need to be paid 50 times, so you might be hard pressed to find someone who is willing to invest that amount of xp.

For reference, it's creation cost would be... 27540gp+252203xp

Edit2: Oh, and don't worry about it being considered an epic item, items are deemed epic when their base cost exceeds 200,000gp, not their market value, so the base cost of this item is still well below that.

You don't pay the XP cost. You pay the gold cost instead of XP.


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

It is true that you'd pay the XP cost 50 times for a Wand or Staff. On the other hand, you don't pay the extra gold for a Wand or Staff. For any other item it is a gold cost instead of XP.

[SinsI]

Using Crake's estimate: If you use the item once per day to create a 25 000 non-magical item and sell said item, it would become profitable in... ~52 days.

Typical party can face 4 equivalent CR encounters in a day, and needs 13 such encounters to level up. 52 days is thus enough to gain 16 levels. How much WBL would you gain for advancing from lvl 17 to level 33?

[Windstorm]

But after 17th level there are plenty of ways to get XP-free wishes - distilled joy/symbol of pain + Spell clock/Magic Trap, Thought Bottles, dweomerkeeper class, level drain/restoration...

that is true, however all of those require some kind of investment from the player beyond simply spending wads of GP. my severe opposition to it isn't just because of what it is, but because its a single-method solution to it.

I'm of the opinion that most things in D&D of any version, were intended to be used in a fun game, in a spirit of cooperation between the DM and players to tell a great story/have a great adventure. to me, this particular item seems like the very antithesis to that goal, unless used as an adventure hook or plot point. so do the other ways you mentioned, but at least those require some other kind of investment.

[Kudaku]

Typical party can face 4 equivalent CR encounters in a day, and needs 13 such encounters to level up. 52 days is thus enough to gain 16 levels. How much WBL would you gain for advancing from lvl 17 to level 33?

And what are the odds of dying in 208 level-approriate CR encounters?

My point isn't that 52 days is outrageously fast, but that granting the PCs significant downtime is effectively unlimited wealth. Do we really need more ways for high level spellcasters to break WBL in two?

[Drachasor]

And what are the odds of dying in 208 level-approriate CR encounters?

For a Wizard? Dying is low. Staying dead is far lower. :smallbiggrin:

One Wish a day isn't so bad though. On the one hand, that's just a +1 Inherent Bonus or a 25k of non-magic stuff. For personal use this isn't bad. On the other hand, it is eventually a lot of cash if used to make money. On the gripping hand, it's an epic item so that game stopped making sense a long time ago.

[SinsI]

And what are the odds of dying in 208 level-approriate CR encounters?

My point isn't that 52 days is outrageously fast, but that granting the PCs significant downtime is effectively unlimited wealth. Do we really need more ways for high level spellcasters to break WBL in two?

That's worse Return On Investment than other daily magic items:
spells can earn you 10 * spell level * caster level / day (assuming you can find buyer)
Normal magic item cost is:
spell level x caster level *360 gold for 1/day
In other words, normal magic items pay for themselves in 36 days.

P.S.
and items created by Wish are explicitly nonmagical (so it is easier and cheaper to use True Creation for that purpose). At such levels unlimited supply of nonmagical items does not really contribute anything to WBL.
At best, you are going to get a bunch of gems for Resurrections - and that's in case the DM rules that they are nonmagical, which is non-obvious, as they are used to power spells...

[Firechanter]

You don't pay the XP cost. You pay the gold cost instead of XP.


The crafter has to pay the XP. So essentially we're talking about a Wizard guy who stops leveling at level 17-20 so he could make this item by the time his peers hit level 30 or so.

Of course, it would make more sense if you don't use Epic levels, but still want to keep playing after hitting 20. Question is, what do non-crafters do with their excess XP?

[Drachasor]

The crafter has to pay the XP. So essentially we're talking about a Wizard guy who stops leveling at level 17-20 so he could make this item by the time his peers hit level 30 or so.

Of course, it would make more sense if you don't use Epic levels, but still want to keep playing after hitting 20. Question is, what do non-crafters do with their excess XP?

Again, I quoted the rules above. The crafter does not pay the XP cost. It's converted into a material cost and they just pay that.

The XP cost would only be paid if you were making a wand, staff, or scroll. Check out a Ring of Wishes or Luckblade.

[Captnq]

Again, I quoted the rules above. The crafter does not pay the XP cost. It's converted into a material cost and they just pay that.

The XP cost would only be paid if you were making a wand, staff, or scroll. Check out a Ring of Wishes or Luckblade.

You... realize that's still horrible, right?

Calculated Cost: 1,305,080

Base cost: 652,540 gp

That's epic.

As per the Epic Level Handbook, Page 124, all epic level Magic items have a additional cost of x10.

So. Your GP cost is 6,525,400 gp, 261,016 xp and take 17.87 years to create (not including adventuring for Gold and XPs to craft this monster).

So, yeah... Your PC leaves play for the next 18 years of game time. So, what do the rest of the players do. Oh? What's That? You want to play ANOTHER PC in the meantime? No. One PC to a player. Either you are crafting for the next 18 years, or you are playing the game, which is it?

EDIT: Oh, the break even point?

455 wishes.

There are easier ways

[Drachasor]

You... realize that's still horrible, right?

I'm just saying what the rules are, that's it.

But yeah, it is very, very expensive. A Pathfinder style Staff would be the way to make it worthwhile, but it is still really, really expensive. At least with that though you can line up multiple wishes in a row.

[Telonius]

Again, I quoted the rules above. The crafter does not pay the XP cost. It's converted into a material cost and they just pay that.

The XP cost would only be paid if you were making a wand, staff, or scroll. Check out a Ring of Wishes or Luckblade.

The rule is from Pathfinder, and doesn't apply to 3.5.

There's an older thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-127388.html) that has a similar discussion:


Based on how the Ring of Three Wishes is put together, this is also wrong. Its cost to create is roughly 11k gp and 15k xp, with a market price of 97,950. That indicates the XP component cost is calculated separately from the base cost to create and factored into the market price accordingly. So 1/day Wish should turn out to be (55080/2) = 27540 GP and (55080/25) + (5000 x 50) = 252203 XP to make. The extra XP cost gets tagged directly into the market price, yielding the million+ GP figure to buy one, but not to make one (for making one, your problem is that it takes almost a level and a half of XP, and since you can't de-level yourself by crafting you can't actually do that until you're almost to level 26 anyway.)

Alternately there's the pricing scheme of the Luck Blade, which follows no identifiable logic.


(Reply)
That's actually level 253, not 26. You need 253k XP to level from Level 253 to 254.

[SinsI]

Nope.
page 123:
an item is an epic magic item if it has one of these characteristics:
...has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material component or experience point-based costs

So it is not epic - base market price is 55k, it is "experience point-based cost" that pushes it above 200k - and it is not included.

[Captnq]

The rule is from Pathfinder, and doesn't apply to 3.5.

There's an older thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-127388.html) that has a similar discussion:

Uh, no. He's right. This is a wondrous item and it follows wondrous item cost rules.

Material component x 50 gp
XP component × 50 (usually none)× 5 gp

You do convert it to gold.

It just doesn't make it any easier.

As for the wish items out of the DMG, those are all exceptions. Most of them are borked if you calulate them. They explain why in the MIC.

[Drachasor]

The rule is from Pathfinder, and doesn't apply to 3.5.

There's an older thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-127388.html) that has a similar discussion:

No, it's not from Pathfinder, it's on the SRD.

However, I was mistaken about rings.

Ok...

General: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

Armor: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicArmor)

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells

Weapons: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons)

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

Note the cost to create on a Luckblade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#luckBlade)

Cost 11,030 gp + 882 XP (0 wishes), 31,180 gp + 2,494 XP (1 wish); 51,330 gp + 4,106 XP (2 wishes), 71,480 gp + 5,718 XP (3 wishes)

Rings: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingRings)

Rings that duplicate spells with costly material or XP components add in the value of 50 × the spell’s component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Rod: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingRods)

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Scrolls, Staffs, and Wands we are familiar with.

Wondrous Items: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWondrousItems)

If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

So the rules aren't as consistent as I thought. Armor, Rings, Wands, Staffs, and Scrolls require XP to cover XP-costing spells. Other items do not.

[Captnq]

Nope.
page 123:
an item is an epic magic item if it has one of these characteristics:
...has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material component or experience point-based costs

So it is not epic - base market price is 55k, it is "experience point-based cost" that pushes it above 200k - and it is not included.

But crafting the magic item has no material component costs. The cost of material component is turned into GP cost under the rules for Wondrous Item Creation. Same thing for the XP cost.

They are not refering to the chart. They are refering to If I want my Wish making device to be made out of A giant emerald the size of a man's head. The Emerald is a "material component". It doesn't factor in.

If It costs me XPs in some other fashion, I don't pay for those. If I buy the XPs from a XP wholesale club and pay 5gp an XP, that doesn't get factored in.

When making the wondrous item, you calculate the value, THEN you figure out if it's epic, WITHOUT any extras you tack on.

[kellbyb]

You... realize that's still horrible, right?

Calculated Cost: 1,305,080

Base cost: 652,540 gp

That's epic.

As per the Epic Level Handbook, Page 124, all epic level Magic items have a additional cost of x10.

So. Your GP cost is 6,525,400 gp, 261,016 xp and take 17.87 years to create (not including adventuring for Gold and XPs to craft this monster).

So, yeah... Your PC leaves play for the next 18 years of game time. So, what do the rest of the players do. Oh? What's That? You want to play ANOTHER PC in the meantime? No. One PC to a player. Either you are crafting for the next 18 years, or you are playing the game, which is it?

EDIT: Oh, the break even point?

455 wishes.

There are easier ways

Umm, no. For one, the x10 multiplier does not apply to all epic items, only ones that apply a bonus beyond a limit specified in DMG. Also, the xp cost is changed, so an item that did have a market price of 13,050,800 would take 140,508 XP - epic items use the formula of market price / 100 + 10000. Anyway, the ring would have a market price of 1,305,080 gp, a creation cost of 652,540 gp, and an xp cost of 23050. By the rules it would take 1305 days, but if you want to be punitive like that you may as well just ban the creation of all magic items in general, since even minor items can occupy upwards of a week to make.

[Captnq]

Umm, no. For one, the x10 multiplier does not apply to all epic items, only ones that apply a bonus beyond a limit specified in DMG. Also, the xp cost is changed, so an item that did have a market price of 13,050,800 would take 140,508 XP - epic items use the formula of market price / 100 + 10000. Anyway, the ring would have a market price of 1,305,080 gp, a creation cost of 652,540 gp, and an xp cost of 23050. By the rules it would take 1305 days, but if you want to be punitive like that you may as well just ban the creation of all magic items in general, since even minor items can occupy upwards of a week to make.



In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item:
...
HAS A MARKET PRICE ABOVE 200,000 GP, not including magterial costs ... blah blah blah.


Market price over 200k. = EPIC.

Sorry.

[SinsI]

They are not refering to the chart. They are refering to If I want my Wish making device to be made out of A giant emerald the size of a man's head. The Emerald is a "material component". It doesn't factor in.
It explicitly says "not including experience based cost".
What can "Price for 50 uses of requiring 5000 XP each" be if not experience based cost?
Thus it is excluded from the price of such an item.

[watchwood]

In Pathfinder, the pricing is substantially more reasonable.

9 (spell level) * 17 (caster level) * 1800 (command word) / 2 (unlimited use to 50 charges) / 5 (50 charges to 1 charge per day) = 27540gp for a 1/day item of wish

[Drachasor]

In Pathfinder, the pricing is substantially more reasonable.

9 (spell level) * 17 (caster level) * 1800 (command word) / 2 (unlimited use to 50 charges) / 5 (50 charges to 1 charge per day) = 27540gp for a 1/day item of wish

Then it's +50*25000 since it has charges per day -- so +1.25 million gold.


If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

You really might as well make it have 5 charges per day at that point, since that doesn't increase the additional cost.

[watchwood]

Then it's +50*25000 since it has charges per day -- so +1.25 million gold.



You really might as well make it have 5 charges per day at that point, since that doesn't increase the additional cost.


Ya, I saw the diamond cost just now. I revise my opinion of it back up to overpriced.

[Telonius]

Okay, going to try to break this down and do the math myself now...

Components counted twice as far as the market price goes. Once, separately under the "Component Cost" columns, once as a factor into the Base Price (in the Estimating Magic Items Gold Piece Value table)

It's a wondrous item, assuming it's use-activated and not command word.

Base Price (in GP)
Spell Effect Item (Spell level * caster level * 2000): 9*17*2000=306000
Charges per day (Divide by (5/1)): 306000/5=61,200
Component (third line) (Spell has XP component): Add 5gp per 1 XP per charge, treat as 50 charges=5000*5*50=1,250,000
Total base price: 61,200+1,250,000=1,331,200

Component cost (in GP)
Material cost: none
XP cost: 5000*50*5gp=1,250,000

Magic Supplies (i.e. cost to create in GP and XP)
(Half the base price in GP, 1/25 of the base price in XP)
GP: 665,600
XP: 53,248

Market Price (in GP)= Spell Component Cost + Base Price = 2,581,200

The item would take 1332 days to complete, at a creation cost of 665,600 GP and 53,248XP.

Because you can't spend enough XP to go down a level by creating an item, you would not be able to create it before epic levels.

[Drachasor]

Okay, going to try to break this down and do the math myself now...

Components counted twice as far as the market price goes. Once, separately under the "Component Cost" columns, once as a factor into the Base Price (in the Estimating Magic Items Gold Piece Value table)

It's a wondrous item, assuming it's use-activated and not command word.

Base Price (in GP)
Spell Effect Item (Spell level * caster level * 2000): 9*17*2000=306000
Charges per day (Divide by (5/1)): 306000/5=61,200
Component (third line) (Spell has XP component): Add 5gp per 1 XP per charge, treat as 50 charges=5000*5*50=1,250,000
Total base price: 61,200+1,250,000=1,331,200

Component cost (in GP)
Material cost: none
XP cost: 5000*50*5gp=1,250,000

Magic Supplies (i.e. cost to create in GP and XP)
(Half the base price in GP, 1/25 of the base price in XP)
GP: 665,600
XP: 53,248

Market Price (in GP)= Spell Component Cost + Base Price = 2,581,200

The item would take 1332 days to complete, at a creation cost of 665,600 GP and 53,248XP.

Because you can't spend enough XP to go down a level by creating an item, you would not be able to create it before epic levels.


Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Armor, shields, weapons, and items with a value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies and the experience point cost), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

The Base Price is determined without adding in the additional price due to material or xp components. So it just takes 62 days to make.

[SinsI]

You really might as well make it have 5 charges per day at that point, since that doesn't increase the additional cost.

That would make it Epic (275400 gp).
Total market cost would be 275400 + 1 250 000 gp = 1 525 400 gp.
Since now it is Epic, it requires a different cost in XP to create:
15254 + 10000 XP = 25254 XP

Epic Rules fail: Epic level handbook doesn't specify how much does it cost in gp to create a magic item!

Oh, found the reason: Epic Level hanbook is 3.0 (and it also references DMG 3.0, not 3.5)

It seems that Epic play is not 3.5 material...

[tyckspoon]

Market price over 200k. = EPIC.

Sorry.

Which means it needs the Craft Epic Widget feat to make. It's still correct that it doesn't incur the extra 10x cost; that is only applied to items that break pre-Epic values., like giving a +6 weapon/armor bonus or duplicating a spell that would require a level 10 or greater spell slot.

[Drachasor]

That would make it Epic (275400 gp).
Total market cost would be 275400 + 1 250 000 gp = 1 525 400 gp.
Since now it is Epic, it requires a different cost in XP to create:
15254 + 10000 XP = 25254 XP

Epic Rules fail: Epic level handbook doesn't specify how much does it cost in gp to create a magic item!

Oh, found the reason: Epic Level hanbook is 3.0 (and it also references DMG 3.0, not 3.5)

It seems that Epic play is not 3.5 material...

That person was talking about Pathfinder though, so no Epic rules. It's just a normal item.

Though I notice the person had the price wrong. As a Command Word item it is 1800*9*17 = 275400, or 55080 for one charge per day. (+1.25 million)

If 3.5, you can knock it down to 3 charges/day and it is non-epic at 165,240gp + 1.25 million.

[Telonius]

The Base Price is determined without adding in the additional price due to material or xp components. So it just takes 62 days to make.

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. That's talking about the Market Price versus the Base Price. On the "Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs" table, there is a "Spell Component Costs" column, which is a flat value in GP for the XP components: XP times 50 times 5gp.

Under Base Price column for Wondrous Items, it says to see the Estimating Magic Item GP value table. That table also lists a Component Cost, but that value is not flat, it's variable: it's charge-based, at 5gp per 1XP per charge. This is not necessarily going to add up to the same total as the Spell Component Costs column in the Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs, so the two things would be calculated separately.

[Drachasor]

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. That's talking about the Market Price versus the Base Price. On the "Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs" table, there is a "Spell Component Costs" column, which is a flat value in GP for the XP components: XP times 50 times 5gp.

Under Base Price column for Wondrous Items, it says to see the Estimating Magic Item GP value table. That table also lists a Component Cost, but that value is not flat, it's variable: it's charge-based, at 5gp per 1XP per charge. This is not necessarily going to add up to the same total as the Spell Component Costs column in the Summary of Magic Item Creation Costs, so the two things would be calculated separately.

I don't know why when I quote the rules exactly in this thread people tell me I am wrong.

It is correct. Read the text (which trumps the table). But that doesn't matter, the table includes a "Base Price" column.

[Telonius]

I did read the text; and I don't think your interpretation is correct. All it says is that the price of a regular, nonmagical item doesn't influence the base price of a magic item. Meaning, you don't figure in the cost of a set of regular, nonmagical suit of fullplate if you're making a +1 fullplate. It doesn't otherwise define what the base price is; it just explicitly tells something that it isn't.

Text does trump table, but in the case of determining gold piece values, text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues) tells you to use the table:


Magic Item Gold Piece Values

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

[Captnq]

Ah. I see the confusion.

You see, I use the interpertation that you figure out the max cost, then you apply discounts. For example, I can get the cost of anything down to 5% of original cost. Number of feats, PrCs, locations, blah blah blah. There's a whole handbook on it HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0).

Trust me. Nothing is ever epic if you apply what's in that handbook.

However, I interpert it to read Anything Over 200,000 gp Cost RETAIL. I believe whole heartedly that the RAI of the situation is, if it costs more then 200,000 gp, it's supposed to be epic.

I personally bumped that up to 250,000 gp in my game, but I believe the intention was 200,000 gp.

Is that the way it actually is? By RAW? Ehhh...

Yes, I could argue not to include XP cost and material component costs. The wording is also poor and I could argue it the other way. Is the martet value based off x2 the cost to make something, or what the market supports. For example, I could make A suit of +5 armor with +5 ASAs for 2,500 gp + cost of armor. The PC wouldn't be able to do much else, it would be the ONLY thing he was good at, but I could do it.

So, that being the case, I could tack on each and ever NON +X Bonus ASA in the book in my suit of armor and it wouldn't be a problem.

Or a better example, a sword. Longsword. 315 base. I add on +10 bonuses.
Now it's 200,000 gp.

I can add on another 386,140 in non-bonuses to that weapon in various flat cost WSA Total normal cost? 586,455. Cost after applying all the bonuses in the Complete Cost Reduction Handbook? 29,622 gp.

Okay, it's Paladin, LG Only, Crafted using two different cost reduction feats and At a weird cost reducing obolisk and I took a special prestige class.

The ELH states that over 200,000 market value is epic. So that means what people pay for it. It might have cost me 14,696 gp + 517 xp, but it SELLS for 410,613 (Why not 586,455? It loses 30% of it's value from being LG Paladin Only)

I don't care how much you are reducing the cost, you are STILL packing in 200k+ Magic in there, and that's the point it becomes epic. Can you argue it another way? Yeah. 3.0 rules, poorly written, different meaning, blah blah blah.

So you then have to ask this? WHY and WHO?

Who's making it? The DM? Screw the cost, it's a plot device anyways.
The Player? Will it Throw the game out of balance if he figures out how to make the 1/wish a day for non-epic costs? Yes? Make it epic.

Now note, my campaign, I completely ignore the x10 rule. I think it's silly. Then again WBL in my game goes off TRUE VALUE, not how much you managed to get the price down. Only the creator of a magic item can take advantage of the reduced cost against his WBL.

For example, If the party wizard makes a sword for you at 5% of retail cost, it might make his XP costs cheaper, but your WBL cost is the same as any body else. I don't care who or how it was made.

The wizard make it for himself? Base GP cost to make + XP x 25 in gp.

My opinion? The wizard is spending feats to make magic items, when he could be getting metamagic feats, he gets a perk. The rest of the part gets the perk of a wizard who can make custom equipment, but THAT'S IT.

Honestly, I don't care to argue it anymore. If it's over 200k market value, it's epic. Period. No questions, that's the RULE.

So Wish Unlimited is 1,525,400 retail.
Wish 1/day 305,080
Wish 1/day only useable by LG Elves and a skill roll required 183,048 gp

It's now non-epic.

Is that the intent? I put a skill roll and make it only... say... usable by ME? Now It's 40% cheaper?


Oh, Just so you understand where I'm getting my view of this:


Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

See those two bold sections?

The first one makes it clear, you calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Now Point to me ONE magic item where they reduced the retail cost based on the creator having the Apprentice (Craftsman) feat (DMG II 177) or the
Extraordinary Artisan feat (ECS53).

They don't.

Computing Retail cost is based on the lowest level, ordinary caster who could make it. Assume a cleric or wizard if possible. If they couldn't make it, THEN you go on to more obscure classes, working your way down to classes like trapsmith or runescarred berserker. Arcane sight is 1st level for a trapsmith, but 3rd for a wizard. Retail cost is off the wizard.

Cost for you to make it YOURSELF is off whatever you are, but when figuring out the Retail cost, well, don't care how cheap you made it. Take your typical average creator and that's the retail cost.

Retail cost is what factors into your WBL.
Retail cost is what determines if something is Epic or not.

Now, the second bold section is the part where the DM gets to say, "it's epic because I FEEL LIKE IT." That's an important part, because, as I said, I can get the cost to me down to nothing. I could have a kaorti make it and that gets REALLY cheep.

There comes a point where, as a DM, you need to squint at the player with one eye and say, "No." and you make it cost ten times normal. If I make something cost ten times normal, it's because I think THAT item should be.

My house rule is, the epic feat just doubles the max retail you can make an object. The max value you can put into any object you make is 10,000 gp x your caster level. You must be able to maintain whatever caster level you are boosted to for 8 hours straight without casting spells. I find it works well.

As for the RAW of this problem? It comes down to how you define Market Value. I define it from the SRD, but my players have shown me it defined other ways in other places. So... figure out how you view THAT first, THEN figure out if you are even playing with epic items are x10, then you can begin to price this monster.

Oh, BTW. My players have already figured out how to cast wish without the XP cost, and more the once a day. Oddly enough, after the initial orgy of stat boosting, they never seem to actually use it. (BTW, I count Inherent Bonuses against your WBL. +5 to every stat is VERY EXPENSIVE. Only one player did that. The Monk. She's a very MAD character anyways.)

It's kinda funny actually. I keep bringing it up. They are talking about a fairly simply problem and I go, "You know, you could just wish the problem solved." But we don't want to waste the wishes. "It's... unlimited wishes. Free wishes. How... can you waste them?" Well the magic has to come from SOMEWHERE. We don't want to drain too much magic from the universe. :smalleek:"Okay... I won't stop you from doing it the hard way."

Unlimited wishes (if it starts to add up against your WBL) isn't as big a perk as you think. Remember, you have to phrase it correctly. One of the players was walking around at the ready with wishes and she said, "Damn, this town in boring. I wish nobody had to sleep anymore so this place would open." Next thing you know, the place opens, a surprised shopkeeper was in the doorway, and everyone for 360 miles woke up. Including a slumbering lich and a whole entire army of Demon-Fae trapped in stasis.

So... they don't casually keep the wishes at the ready anymore.



I don't know why when I quote the rules exactly in this thread people tell me I am wrong.

It is correct. Read the text (which trumps the table). But that doesn't matter, the table includes a "Base Price" column.

It might be because the rules contradict themselves.


Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

I think that's where you are getting confused. For MANY items. Not ALL items, the market price equals the base price. To ACTUALLY figure out the base price...


In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

See? Market Price does not always = Base price.

Market Price =
(Base Price as calculated by being created by a typical spellcaster without any funkey feats, magic items, location modifiers, whatever.)
+
(Spell Component x 50) gp
+
(XP x 50 x 5) gp

And market price figures out WBL and if it's Epic

Actual Base Price is
Normal Magic Item Cost
X
(All the other modifiers, feats, locations, magic items, hammer of the magesmith, PrC modifiers)

The the cost to create is Actual Base Price/2 in gp and ABP/25 in xp.
Then the time to create is ABP/1000 in days.

Get it?

[Captnq]

OH. Now I get what you are saying...
Here. Lets clarify things.

Market Value = Estimated Base Value + Component Cost x 50gp + XP x 250gp
Base Value = (Whatever Item You are making's Base Value Calculation Rules)
Cost To Create = Base Value/2 + Component Cost x 50gp + XP Cost x 250gp
XP Cost To Create = Base Value/25
Time to Create (In Days) = Base Value/1000

Out of pocket costs = Cost to create.
Cost to buy = Market Value
WBL Cost = Market Value
Epic Items are anything over 200,000k market value.

Now, as it's phrased, it's confusing.

SRD Epic Item Creation Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm)

Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

Well, if you remove the "material component" or "experience point" based costs, it's not Market Value anymore, it's Base Value. And yes, they had market value and base value as separate values in 3.0, I checked.

EDIT: FOUND 3.5 UPDATE

So, why don't they just say "base cost" because that is what it is when you remove the MC and XP GP based cost.

You seem to believe they want you to figure out the base cost, figure out the market value, then use that to figure out the base cost again.

I suppose that's one way of reading it. It should be written (for the way you see it)

Has a market price above 200,000k
Not Including:
- Material costs for armor or weapons
- Material Component or experience point costs
- Additional value for intelligent items

Hrmm...

For the want of a semicolon.

EDIT:
I just found the 3.5 update. They added hyphens. It does change the meaning. Huh. So They don't consider Material Components gps or XP cost gps to be "part" of a magic item anymore then a suit of armor or the weapon. Hrm...

So, the item would be... 275,400 gp

Hrmm...

That's why they want you to use market price and not base price. The Base price adjustments are applied before market price. Ah. Huh.

So... I can apply:
1/day = /5
Requires a skill check = -10%
Alignment restriction = -30%.

To make any magic item that normally costs 1,666,666 gp or less cost under 200,000 gp market and not be epic.

Well, that rule is a useless limiter then.

Glad I never enforced it.

[Drachasor]

I did read the text; and I don't think your interpretation is correct. All it says is that the price of a regular, nonmagical item doesn't influence the base price of a magic item. Meaning, you don't figure in the cost of a set of regular, nonmagical suit of fullplate if you're making a +1 fullplate. It doesn't otherwise define what the base price is; it just explicitly tells something that it isn't.

Text does trump table, but in the case of determining gold piece values, text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues) tells you to use the table:

Again, read the text (which I quoted before!)


In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

It's not a "interpretation", It's explicit!*

And it was literally in the next paragraph after the one you quoted!

And AGAIN, the table has a "base price" column! That doesn't include material components!

*Yes, I know technically it is an interpretation even so.