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Propagandalf
2014-03-01, 06:37 AM
I really really like the summoner archetype Synthetist, since the character creation opportunities one can take with it are rather limitless.

But I'd like to emphasize the wear-your-eidolon-like-a-powersuit aspect.

So here's the Channeler archetype I got in mind. It's strictly weaker than a synthetist or a normal summoner, but how much exactly? What Tier would it be?

CHANNELER
Identical to the Synthetist except as follows:

Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
At 4th level the summoner can expend one use of this ability to cast Lesser Restore Eidolon as a spell-like ability.
At 7th level the power of this ability increases and it functions as Rejuvenate Eidolon (Sp).
At 9th level the summoner can expend four uses of this ability to cast Restore Eidolon as a spell-like ability.
At 13th level the power of this ability increases again and it functions as Greater Rejuvenate Eidolon (Sp).

Summon Eidolon (Sp)
At 4th level the channeler can expend two uses of his Rejuvenate Eidolon spell-like ability to cast the spell Summon Eidolon as a spell-like ability. His caster level for this ability is equal to his channeler class level. [EDIT]

These abilities replace the Summon Monster I-IX spell-like abilities. [EDIT]


But what about spells? Would it be too much to reduce the number of spells a Channeler can know? Like give him only the Evolution Surge line but more spells/day or something similar?

arkangel111
2014-03-03, 09:38 PM
I fail to see how that is weaker. You state that its identical and then you add an ability to the summoner taking away summon monster 1, which while wearing the eidolon a summoner cannot use anyways. Aside from that, even if you were trying to keep it balanced against itself, you instead made it more powerful. I think you need to take away more. Your giving a heck of a lot of abilities, I think 5, but you're only taking one away.

Propagandalf
2014-03-04, 05:17 AM
I fail to see how that is weaker. You state that its identical and then you add an ability to the summoner taking away summon monster 1, which while wearing the eidolon a summoner cannot use anyways. Aside from that, even if you were trying to keep it balanced against itself, you instead made it more powerful. I think you need to take away more. Your giving a heck of a lot of abilities, I think 5, but you're only taking one away.

This is true. Where I was going with the ability change was to simply limit the synthetist a bit. The Summon Monster ability gives the summoner so much utility options as well as lessens the synthetists reliance on his eidolon-supersuit (This is from experience as I'm currently playing a synthetist in a campaign and he could just as easily, if not easier, just use the summon monster ability instead of the eidolon).

The new ability would give the summoner more reasons to continually wear his eidolon as well as take away a reason to not wear it.

As of taking away more abilities, would limited spells-known/level help? :smallsmile:

More notes about the summoner Summon Monster for those interested:
The Summon Monster as a standard action spell-like ability that lasts 1min/lvl gives the summoner a way to access meatshields, damage dealers, different movement styles (burrow, climb, fly), healing spells (Bralani Azata etc.) and other utility spells. A myriad of options at you fingertips. :smallbiggrin:

This usually means that many obstacles just melt away even at early levels.

And while extremely useful, at least for me it lessens the need to improvise and turns it into an "Hmm, I'll just check out the list for a critter that takes care of this problem for me" -action.

arkangel111
2014-03-04, 10:45 AM
While I see your point I think that just removing Summon monster would only limit you for the first level or so. According to the ACF rules if an ability is removed but the greater abilities are not (SM2, SM3, ...) then you instead are delayed getting the lesser. So when a summoner would normally get summon monster 2 they instead get summon monster 1 and it would progress from there. If your really looking to force the synthesist to use their eidolon, just change the summon ability to be just like a wiz/sorc. Full-round action, rounds per level. Realistically at mins/level the summoner in my party could use all of them before we enter the dungeon and send them crashing through the halls and we would never have to fight as a party.

Propagandalf
2014-03-06, 03:04 AM
While I see your point I think that just removing Summon monster would only limit you for the first level or so. According to the ACF rules if an ability is removed but the greater abilities are not (SM2, SM3, ...) then you instead are delayed getting the lesser. So when a summoner would normally get summon monster 2 they instead get summon monster 1 and it would progress from there. If your really looking to force the synthesist to use their eidolon, just change the summon ability to be just like a wiz/sorc. Full-round action, rounds per level. Realistically at mins/level the summoner in my party could use all of them before we enter the dungeon and send them crashing through the halls and we would never have to fight as a party.

Ah, yes, my bad. I meant that the new ability would replace all of the summon monster spell-like abilities of the summoner not just the first (fixed that now).:smallredface:

That summon monster spell change you suggested might also work. Do note that the synthetist can have only one active SM at a time thought (Part of the reason the Master Summoner archety is even more abusable than the synthetist).

CoolOhm
2014-03-06, 12:31 PM
I'm not sure this is any weaker than the Synthetist normally; however if you ever lose your eidolon suit, you are in real trouble.

Where the Channeler is a bit different/weaker, is that when your eidolon suit gets destroyed, you basically loose all your class abilities but your spells; and as a summoner archetype you have very few of those. At low levels if your suit gets destroyed after 2-3 encounters then odds are you will only have 1-2 spells left total. This seems overly harsh.

Now I grant a channeler should be able to prevent losing his suit with Fused Link and his Rejuvenate Eidolon SLA. However the suit can still be affected by Banish or Dismiss rendering him roughly useless. Also Fused Link cannot be used while you are stunned, as using Fused Link requires a Free Action, and stunned creatures can not take free actions. This would allow for a smart DM to kill off your suit with relative ease.

So long story short, I still think he should get some way out becoming an NPC class if the suit gets wrecked. Maybe you could try adding Summon Eidolon(the level 2 spell) as an SLA:

Perhaps something like:

Summon Eidolon (Sp)
At 4th level the channeler can expend two uses of his Rejuvenate Eidolon spell-like ability to cast the spell Summon Eidolon as a spell-like ability. His caster level for this ability is equal to his channeler class level.


What do you think? If I'm honest, part of me thinks that half the fun of the class might be improvising a way not to be useless with broken suit... Hell you have Use Magic Device. So yeah, there you go.

Propagandalf
2014-03-07, 03:41 AM
I'm not sure this is any weaker than the Synthetist normally; however if you ever lose your eidolon suit, you are in real trouble.

So long story short, I still think he should get some way out becoming an NPC class if the suit gets wrecked. Maybe you could try adding Summon Eidolon(the level 2 spell) as an SLA:

Perhaps something like:

Summon Eidolon (Sp)
At 4th level the channeler can expend two uses of his Rejuvenate Eidolon spell-like ability to cast the spell Summon Eidolon as a spell-like ability. His caster level for this ability is equal to his channeler class level.


What do you think? If I'm honest, part of me thinks that half the fun of the class might be improvising a way not to be useless with broken suit... Hell you have Use Magic Device. So yeah, there you go.

Not bad, not bad at all.
I've added it to the main post.:smallsmile:

But as you said, if the summoner loses the suit on levels 1-3 (due to damage) he is preeeetty much a sitting duck. He does have his spells and probably a crossbow though (not a bad weapon on levels 1-2). The synthetist ability Fused Link (Su) should help against the loss of the suit also since the summoner can sacrifice his own hp to prevent the suit going *bamf!*.

At 4th level and after the loss of the suit is not as big a deal since it can be resummoned even if it "dies".