Limited Wish->Geas

[Techno Magician]

So correct me if i'm wrong but using limited wish to imitate a geas spell would allow you to use the spell in a standard action. So basically a no save dominate person for 7th level slot(allows SR though).

Anything stopping this, and would you allow it in your games?

[TuggyNE]

It's not actually as good as dominate in most ways, and it costs you 300 xp, so it seems not wholly unreasonable.

[weckar]

Question: If it duplicates the spell and all aspects of it, why wouldn't it duplicate the casting time?

[SinsI]

Because it imitates spell's effect, not copies the spell.
I.e. you can imitate Magic Missile - and it won't be blocked by Lesser Globe of Invulnerability.

[Techno Magician]

From my understanding, you cast the wish/limited wish, and it creates the effect as though you cast a different spell. I've heard of using it to hallow or other long casting time spells, and Resurrection is mentioned in the wish description I believe. And while it isn't quite as good as dominate person it can be better in some ways(make it not open ended).

The exp cost is something to take into consideration but can be often well worth it.

[Gemini476]

Personally I like Baleful Geas more, since a Dragonfire Adept can get it at level 11 and it's pretty much the same effect except without the XP cost and duration (since Baleful Geas does 1d4 Strength damage/day).

Nice trick, though. You could also use Uncanny Forethought to cast it as a full-round action without having to spend experience as well.

[Drachasor]

In 2nd Edition could you just Geas anyone? I thought the old version had it so that the person had to agree to the Geas. Though, I think it lasted indefinitely or until the job was done.

Anyhow, that always made more sense to me for a spell like that.

My memory is fuzzy though, so I might be mistaken.

[Crake]

So basically a no save dominate person for 7th level slot(allows SR though).

Anything stopping this, and would you allow it in your games?

Uhh, yeah, there's plenty stopping it. First off, geas doesn't actually force the target to perform the task it simply punishes them for not doing it, so in the immediate circumstance, there's nothing forcing them to suddenly do exactly as you ask. Dominate has a much more potent effect comparitively. Secondly, unless you're geasing some random pleb, 3d6 damage per day is pretty neglidgible, most people you'd be casting it on by that time could just rest that off overnight, so really it's hardly a big deal. In combat, worst case scenario, they dont obey your order and immediately take 3d6 no save damage, but that's pretty mediocre if you ask me.

tl;dr geas is not even close to dominate

[weckar]

I could even argue that the ability score penalties of Lesser Geas are worse than the straight damage of a normal Geas...

[Gemini476]

You only take damage if you are prevented from following your Geas. Geas references Lesser Geas, which has this line:

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

It's basically a more situational Dominate, yeah.

[Taelas]

That' a misinterpretation. "Must" is not the same as "is magically compelled to do so". For example, you must eat to live, but nothing forces you to do so.

The target of a geas or lesser geas must follow the instructions, or they are penalized (either by ability damage or through direct damage). But if they do not mind suffering the consequences, they are not forced to do so.

[Drachasor]

That' a misinterpretation. "Must" is not the same as "is magically compelled to do so". For example, you must eat to live, but nothing forces you to do so.

The target of a geas or lesser geas must follow the instructions, or they are penalized (either by ability damage or through direct damage). But if they do not mind suffering the consequences, they are not forced to do so.

Well, that's not what it says though...


The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

It only talks about being prevented from obeying. It doesn't act like there's a choice. It's also a Compulsion effect.

If it was just "do this or get hurt" then that wouldn't be an Enchantment spell, imho. That sounds more like Necromancy (though really it could probably fit into any school depending on the damage).

In any case, the spell makes no allowance for not following it by choice. That isn't presented as an option.

I can only assume a dialogue comes up asking if you want to do X, Y, Z (with a "no" option) to get the Geas done. If you Pick "No" then you get a response of "But thou must" and go back to the previous options.

[Taelas]

"Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

Emphasis mine.

[SinsI]

So, if you have 19+ HP, Fast Healing 1 and Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain you are free to ignore Geas for as long as you please?

[Ravens_cry]

So, if you have 19+ HP, Fast Healing 1 and Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain you are free to ignore Geas for as long as you please?
Geeze, those nipple clamps are all over the Playground today.:smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

"Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest."

Emphasis mine.

Well, that's a potential argument for the non-lesser version allowing a choice. But before we get into that, do you agree the lesser version allows no choice based on the text?

[Taelas]

No, I do not.

While prevention is generally due to an outside influence, there is no reason to suppose it must be due to an outside influence.

I can prevent myself from spending money by locking it in a safe, for example.

[Drachasor]

No, I do not.

While prevention is generally due to an outside influence, there is no reason to suppose it must be due to an outside influence.

I can prevent myself from spending money by locking it in a safe, for example.

Interesting you used the word "must" there. I suppose "must" doesn't mean "must" either?

[ericgrau]

The target also "must" be 7 HD or less. I suppose that's subjective too? As in, only if you can't slip it by the DM, and might get hit by a flying DMG?

Anyway xp is a river. You'll get it back. That does seem like a powerful no save win trick. For example, "Surrender yourself to the town guard".

Be careful of subversions though. Make sure the town guard is powerful enough to take on and imprison the foe after he is in manacles, for example. Or you'll need to find a new town guard. Some bad DMs may subvert anything even if well worded, in which case you forget the whole spell.

[Taelas]

"Target: One living creature with 7 HD or less"

:smallconfused:

Not sure what the issue is.

[ericgrau]

In the body text of the spell description of lesser geas.

Also in the spellcasting rules in the spell descriptions subsection the word "must" appears 20+ times. In case you wanted to say the header part of the spell description, including "target:", is somehow different. Apparently all of the basic mechanics of casting can be screwed with if you try hard enough and don't mind the consequences.

[Taelas]

:smallannoyed:

I have suggested nothing of the sort. I am not saying the word 'must' does not mean what it means; I am saying it refers to the fact that if he does not comply with the instructions, he suffers a penalty. He must do it, or else.

[icefractal]

The Pathfinder version is significantly different (and stronger) than the 3.5 version.


Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/quest.


If the subject is prevented from obeying the geas/quest for 24 hours, it takes a -3 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -3 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -12. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the geas/quest.

Note the different between "does not attempt to follow" and "prevented from obeying". So in Pathfinder, I would say that it does compel following the course of action.

[Chronos]

It doesn't say "Must, or else". It just says "must". You must follow the geas. You don't have an option.