For DM's: How would you handle a Wish for a free Feat?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

So how about it, in your world how would you handle it if a player wished for a permanent additional feat?

A wish can already grant you a bonus of up to +5 in every stat (though that IS 30 wishes), it could be argued that since a stat bonus requires four levels to earn and a feat only requires three that it would be a less powerful effect.

What do you think?

[SinsI]

If it is a Fighter bonus feat - grant it(as long as the prerequisites are satisfied); it'd replicate a slotless continuous Heroics item (that now has a set-in-stone feat and is subject to Dispel).

I'd handle other types of feats similarly: look at their prerequisites, determine the first level they can be taken by a commoner (with no cheese or racial feats). That's the feat level. Assume it is replicated by a spell of that level/2. Determine the cost of a continuous/unlimited command word item that duplicates such a spell, adjust a bit if such an item would be weaker/stronger than a feat, and divide by 25000 that can be gained by a single Wish. The resulting number is how many Wishes it takes to get such a feat.

[Blkmge]

So how about it, in your world how would you handle it if a player wished for a permanent additional feat?

A wish can already grant you a bonus of up to +5 in every stat (though that IS 30 wishes), it could be argued that since a stat bonus requires four levels to earn and a feat only requires three that it would be a less powerful effect.

What do you think?
I'd be ok with it, for the most part. By the time a PC can get access to wishes, they're already on the verge of destroying known reality. If at lower levels (say ~10th or so), I'd have to determine how much of a benefit a given feat is. Some feats are incredibly powerful in certain builds - though I'd rule they'd need to qualify for it already before it could be given.

[Firechanter]

Well, items granting feats tend to range between 3k and 18k GP, so using a Wish for one doesn't even seem terribly efficient. As a DM, I'd allow it. As a player, I'd consider it something of a waste...

edit: ...unless it allowed to ignore prereqs.

[SinsI]

Well, items granting feats tend to range between 3k and 18k GP, so using a Wish for one doesn't even seem terribly efficient. As a DM, I'd allow it. As a player, I'd consider it something of a waste.
There are more expensive ones. I.e. incarnum focus is 25k, and it replicates a feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity.

There are also feats that are available at, say, level 18. They obviously can't cost the same as feats that are only available at level 1.

[Captnq]

Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.

Editor: Can be good IF your DM rules that you can cast the wishes out of immediate succession. Else, go for a tome instead. A kind DM can simply rule that inherent bonuses do stack, because they are instantaneous. Regardless, he should enforce the +5 maximum, no matter what. This makes it easier for players to use tomes and wishes in combination to achieve +5 to any given stat. For the record, the official stats that can be thus increased are Cha, Con, Dex, Int, Str, Wis

Editor: Possible other stats that could be subject to inherent bonuses are: Base Attack Bonus, any Damage Reduction the caster has or DR 1/-, Initiative, Movement (5’ increments), Natural Armor Bonus, and Skills (A kind DM would allow you to increase a skill by 4 points per wish, maximum of +20.) Any attempt to wish for more damage or improved to hit should increase the corresponding base stat. A wish for more hit points would increase the target’s con score. Any wish for more spells per day should increase the mental base stat that is used by that spellcaster. If a spontaneous caster wishes for more spells known, It is recommended that it grant the caster a feat instead. There are several that give spontaneous casters extra known spells. Use whatever is appropriate for your campaign. However, if you do allow this, the players might wish for more feats. If you allow this, it’s recommended that you cannot wish more then five extra feats, and you must qualify for the feats you wish for.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

.....
[it’s recommended that you cannot wish more then five extra feats, and you must qualify for the feats you wish for.

Do you have a source for this, or is it personal opinion?

[Brookshw]

It's not exactly overpowered, but its not a "safe" wish and I do love me some monkey paw style wishing :smallbiggrin: I'm curious on how they'd phrase it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's a 9th level spell and 5,000 xp, but look at the alternative: Heroics + Dark Chaos Shufle, for a 2nd level spell, two 8th level spells, and 500 xp. If they're doing it during downtime anyway, then the only consideration is that latter is one tenth the xp cost of using Wish, and available two levels sooner. I'd say just let them do it and be grateful they're going that route.

[Chronos]

Items that grant feats aren't the right comparison, because those take up body slots, and can be stolen/sundered/suppressed/dispelled. Personally, I'd twist the heck out of a wish for a bonus feat, with results ranging from being transported to the Otyugh Hole without your equipment (if you're lucky) to entering the service of an Elder Evil who grants their followers feats (if you're not).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wish for a feat.... it replaces another (important) feat you already had, now you don't qualify for your prestige class any more and lose ten levels of spellcasting.

[Mystral]

Characters can't really wish for feats. So, just give them what they wish for without breaking the game.

Say a character says "I want to react faster to danger" and the player informs you that he wishes the Improved Initiative feat. If you think that's cool, give it to him. If you think that is too powerfull, just give him a weaker version of the feat, like only a +2 Bonus to initiative.

Another possibility would be to offset the feats with flaws.

[Ravens_cry]

Wish for a feat.... it replaces another (important) feat you already had, now you don't qualify for your prestige class any more and lose ten levels of spellcasting.
Now that's just pointlessly petty.:smallannoyed:

[Segev]

5k exp for a feat doesn't sound all that broken to me. If it's not a feat designed for part of a nasty game-breaking combo, I'd just grant it. If it were for game-breaking purposes, I'd have it come with a twisted-wish cost commensurate to the game-breaking nature of how the player uses it.

For example, if he uses it to wish for Arcane Thesis on some high-ish level spell and then proceeds to regularly cheese it down to significantly below the spell's actual level (which is a questionable reading of Arcane Thesis, anyway, but we'll go with it for now), I'd have the fact that he did his Thesis on this spell reflect in newfound fame and adulation that comes up in uncomfortable ways and places and - possibly - makes his trick something for which most serious enemies are directly prepared. After all, they've read his thesis. And he's used it so brilliantly that it's drawn all sorts of attention!

If he's using it to wish for Two-Weapon Fighting or the like, though, I'd probably just let him have it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Now that's just pointlessly petty.:smallannoyed:

"I wish for 50,000 xp and a new belt!"
*A Balor appears wearing a shiny new belt*

The Wish could just give them a flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (if it's a Wizard give him No Time For Book Learning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) to offset the extra feat.

[Ravens_cry]

"I wish for 50,000 xp and a new belt!"
*A Balor appears wearing a shiny new belt*

The Wish could just give them a flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (if it's a Wizard give him No Time For Book Learning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) to offset the extra feat.
Again, petty. You basically just killed the character as there is no way in the nine hells that an otherwise standard wizard is playable if they can't read their bloody <expletive redacted/> spell book. All this 'DM verses players' attitude does is encourage brinkmanship and munchkinry.
It depends on the feat in question, but most classes are a little feat starved anyway, so I don't see too much trouble with a wish granting most feats, epic feats being an exception.

[Curmudgeon]

Feats in D&D are mostly fairly weak compared to spell effects. If they satisfy the prerequisites for the feat, I think this is a reasonable use of Wish.

It's pretty annoying for the PC using an in-character mechanic to ask for a player-level benefit, but I guess the appropriate circumlocutions could be considered as being used instead. :smallannoyed:

[Slipperychicken]

The Wish could just give them a flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (if it's a Wizard give him No Time For Book Learning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) to offset the extra feat.

This is what I was thinking. The feat goes outside the Wish's safe zone, so this could be partial fulfillment.

Also, it could reassign the feat from one the PC already possesses. That would be essentially a replication of the Psionic Reformation power, and in line with Wish's safe zone.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again, petty. You basically just killed the character as there is no way in the nine hells that an otherwise standard wizard is playable if they can't read their bloody <expletive redacted/> spell book. All this 'DM verses players' attitude does is encourage brinkmanship and munchkinry.
It depends on the feat in question, but most classes are a little feat starved anyway, so I don't see too much trouble with a wish granting most feats, epic feats being an exception.

If it's outside of what wish can accomplish safely, then there should be some sort of risk involved in getting it fulfilled. Making an unsafe wish shouldn't be all smiles and sunshine.

[Ravens_cry]

Feats in D&D are mostly fairly weak compared to spell effects. If they satisfy the prerequisites for the feat, I think this is a reasonable use of Wish.

It's pretty annoying for the PC using an in-character mechanic to ask for a player-level benefit, but I guess the appropriate circumlocutions could be considered as being used instead. :smallannoyed:

Well, how does your character ask for precisely +1 of specific type to a statistic? As long as it isn't a wish granting mechanism that specifically requires the character to say 'I wish . . .X', I think it's fair. Not Rules-as-written, oh Keeper of the RAW, but fair.

If it's outside of what wish can accomplish safely, then there should be some sort of risk involved in getting it fulfilled. Making an unsafe wish shouldn't be all smiles and sunshine.
Destroying characters in petty jerkassery doesn't make for a congenial game either. Heck, if Heroics spell is part of your game, it isn't even outside of the 'safe' limit.

[OldTrees1]

Let it grant 1 floating(able to be changed) feat. Up to a maximum of 5 floating feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Destroying characters in petty jerkassery doesn't make for a congenial game either. Heck, if Heroics spell is part of your game, it isn't even outside of the 'safe' limit.

Despite the party being capable of casting 9th level spells, you act as though it would be impossible to fix. Giving a character a significant, yet temporary, setback in exchange for a greedy/reckless wish is not a DM vs players mindset.

[OldTrees1]

Despite the party being capable of casting 9th level spells, you act as though it would be impossible to fix. Giving a character a significant, yet temporary, setback in exchange for a greedy/reckless wish is not a DM vs players mindset.

I don't think wishing for a feat is greedy so I think it would be fine without the flaw you suggested. However your 50K xp and a Belt example was spot on.

[Sam K]

If it's outside of what wish can accomplish safely, then there should be some sort of risk involved in getting it fulfilled. Making an unsafe wish shouldn't be all smiles and sunshine.

Risks should be proportional to rewards. Making a character incapable of fullfilling their role, or killing them, is pretty harsh risk for wishing for a feat (especially considering that even a successful wish would have been an expensive way to get a feat).

I would say a wish for a feat is a fair trade. While a feat may have a lowish value for magic item creation, getting a feat may meet prereqs, and having an item grant a feat wont do that. If it gets abused, sure, you should clamp down on it, but trying to kill players off because they use the existing game mechanics to improve their characters? That just makes you seem like a jerk.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, how does your character ask for precisely +1 of specific type to a statistic?
You don't ask for precisely anything; you say "I wish to be stronger."/"I wish to be more agile."/"I wish to be tougher."/"I wish to be smarter."/whatever, and you rely on these Wish choices being in line with what the spell grants without problems. For back-to-back Wish choices, make the subsequent ones "I wish to be even stronger.", & c.

[Ravens_cry]

You don't ask for precisely anything; you say "I wish to be stronger."/"I wish to be more agile."/"I wish to be tougher."/"I wish to be smarter."/whatever, and you rely on these Wish choices being in line with what the spell grants without problems. For back-to-back Wish choices, make the subsequent ones "I wish to be even stronger.", & c.
"I wish to be tougher" is pretty ambiguous, since, among other qualms, what toughness has to do with how well you concentrate is hard to quantify, yet the Concentration skill keys off Con. Such a wish could also grant you DR or natural armour potentially.
Heck, even something as 'obvious' as "I wish to be stronger" could merely grant you the equivalent of a lifting belt, an item that grants you a plus to strength but only for the purposes of carrying capacity, one in-world definition of 'stronger'. More agile could mean a plus to reflex saves, a plus to all Dex based skills, or even only some of them.

Despite the party being capable of casting 9th level spells, you act as though it would be impossible to fix. Giving a character a significant, yet temporary, setback in exchange for a greedy/reckless wish is not a DM vs players mindset.
OK, how do you get rid of the flaw? I admit I know almost as little as John Snow, but I don't think there is a Remove Flaw spell or other way for removing said flaw. Even if it only takes a couple of sessions, even if you come up with some ad hoc quest style solution, that's still an extended period where the character is beyond useless. Not fighter useless, not True namer useless, anvil to the foot useless. Said player might as well sit things out.