Distilled Joy? So why are casters not in the brothel trade?

[dreadwind80]

So reading the Book of Exalted deeds/Vile Darkness in preparation for campaign and found the distilled joy and liquid pain spells.

These spells seem ideal for abuse in Eberron, as I can easily see the Dragonmarked houses having an eternal wand of distilled joy on hand in brothels to farm the activities there, ahem.

By the same standard, as healing is done a lot more via the heal skill by the halfings, I can still see a side line in liquid pain as well while care being supplied. A little harder as cannot make an eternal wand of this spells as 4th level.

The XP is not huge, but would enough to be very attractive for all the low level item creation in that world, as articfers cannot drain xp until level five from items.

I like the idea that the healers profit from your pain both in gold for treatment as well literal pain, maybe offer a discount if you are willing to have pain bottled?

[thethird]

I'm particularly fond of a bunch of followers-commoners, a symbol of pain, a bunch of nipple clamps of exquisite pain, self resetting traps of distilled joy, anchor plane to a plane with the timeless magic trait, an another to a fast time demiplane.

The good thing is that you can start small, and get the xp for the crafting of the next items as you go.

I also like to target the guys (preferably warforged) with microcosms, so they all share one extremely pleasurable dream together. Which you can influence with the nightmare spell. And can teleport into there with the oneiromancy thing. And live there. And move the bodies there.

And I overdid.

[dreadwind80]

I like it!
Symbol of pain + the exquisite pain nipple clamps, just trying to think which dragonmarked house would set this up to farm people?

[Miss Disaster]

Distilled Joy Farming has been a known Uncanny Forethought tactic for years now. Especially since that combo reduces its casting time from 24 hours down to 1 Standard Action. You can even pair up the combo with Reach Spell metamagic for distance farming.

[Gavinfoxx]

There's other ways... I mention one that is a bit more reasonable in my handbook:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[Fax Celestis]

I'm particularly fond of a bunch of followers-commoners, a symbol of pain, a bunch of nipple clamps of exquisite pain, self resetting traps of distilled joy, anchor plane to a plane with the timeless magic trait, an another to a fast time demiplane.

The good thing is that you can start small, and get the xp for the crafting of the next items as you go.

I also like to target the guys (preferably warforged) with microcosms, so they all share one extremely pleasurable dream together. Which you can influence with the nightmare spell. And can teleport into there with the oneiromancy thing. And live there. And move the bodies there.

And I overdid.The Dream of Metal and Whips and Chains?

[thethird]

The Dream of Metal and Whips and Chains?

Yes :smallamused: Lucid Dreaming and Perform (sexual techniques) recommended.


I like it!
Symbol of pain + the exquisite pain nipple clamps, just trying to think which dragonmarked house would set this up to farm people?

If you want to go even further use wondrous architecture rules, in stronghold builders, to make a room of nipple clamps effect and etch the symbol of pain in the room.

[Vogonjeltz]

Wouldn't this require some kind of acquiescence by the patrons of said brothel? I mean, some might object, violently, to having their joy taken from them. It occurs to me that distilled joy really ought to be a neutral or even evil spell. How is stealing someone's joy not evil?

[JaronK]

Note: it doesn't take joy from them... they lose nothing. It more... harvests the radiating joy that comes off them.

Personally, I used this in one game where my character made an orphanage and then put an item that radiated Elation in the playground. Then I had a trap of Distill Joy set in the floor of the door that went out onto the playground. Thus, everybody who ever went outside or inside there triggered the trap, thus netting 2exp for crafting. Nice and easy.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

I think the LE Mendicant scheme for getting distilled joy is probably more popular because it sidesteps sex and makes one indispensable to the community, even if people do decide they want to get rid of you, unlike prostitution where there's always one more possible source of a moral crusade to have to deal with.

[Vogonjeltz]

Note: it doesn't take joy from them... they lose nothing. It more... harvests the radiating joy that comes off them.

Personally, I used this in one game where my character made an orphanage and then put an item that radiated Elation in the playground. Then I had a trap of Distill Joy set in the floor of the door that went out onto the playground. Thus, everybody who ever went outside or inside there triggered the trap, thus netting 2exp for crafting. Nice and easy.

JaronK

It says it draws forth the material essence of joy from a creature experiencing great bliss.

I read that as taking it.

*radiating would mean the joy was already external, which is not the case.

[Karnith]

It says it draws forth the material essence of joy from a creature experiencing great bliss.

I read that as taking it.
The spell does not say that it has any ill effect on its target, and is explicitly harmless. I think you're reading too much into it.

[Vogonjeltz]

The spell does not say that it has any ill effect on its target, and is explicitly harmless. I think you're reading too much into it.

Harmless in game terms means "The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires".

Given that the spell is actually taking ones joy, it would rather defeat the purpose of going to a brothel to allow it to be cast on oneself, not to mention the whole intrusion of privacy matter.

A caster is quite likely to provoke someone into a murderous rage for doing something like this without permission.

[thethird]

And when they feel sad you hit them with extract pain! And when they are happy again with distilled joy! And repeat! Mwhahahaha This plan is supper effective.

[TypoNinja]

Harmless in game terms means "The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires".

Given that the spell is actually taking ones joy, it would rather defeat the purpose of going to a brothel to allow it to be cast on oneself, not to mention the whole intrusion of privacy matter.

A caster is quite likely to provoke someone into a murderous rage for doing something like this without permission.

Considering that draining the happiness from someone would seriously violate the spirit of Exalted Good in most cases, I'm gonna haft say you are reading too much into it. The spell would have no effect on the target, especially given the harmless tag. Draining the happiness out of someone as they experience a peak of of an emotion sounds more like the kind of Cruel and Unusual that Vile Evil would engage in.


My designated use was actually wondrous architecture, create a bed that casts Distilled Joy once a day, very cheap. You get both the discount for a 1/day (since 5/day is the base cost) and the discount for enchanting a largely immobile object.

[Karnith]

Harmless in game terms means "The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires".Yes, I am aware. The creature could resist if it wanted (you got into privacy issues, which could be a valid reason to resist; I'd certainly be wary about a stranger casting a spell on me), but the spell itself does not have a negative effect. That's what being a harmless spell means. It's in the same category as spells like Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) and Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm).

Given that the spell is actually taking ones joyPlease provide a citation that clearly states that creating ambrosia takes a creature's joy away, or has any other ill effect on the target creature. Your quote from the spell description does not support this position. There is no indication that the physical manifestation of joy (i.e. ambrosia) is the same as the joy itself (and that, therefore, distilling the ambrosia would take the creature's joy away), or that the target suffers any ill effects at all from the spell. Distilled Joy is tagged as harmless. It is widely used by celestials, literal embodiments of D&Dverse good. It is a spell from a domain offered by a good deity.

I believe that you are reading things into the spell that are not there. If you want to rule that casting Distilled Joy does nasty things to people and is a bad thing in your game, that's fine, but that's not what the spell actually says.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, I am aware. The creature could resist if it wanted (you got into privacy issues, which could be a valid reason to resist; I'd certainly be wary about a stranger casting a spell on me), but the spell itself does not have a negative effect. That's what being a harmless spell means. It's in the same category as spells like Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) and Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm).
Please provide a citation that clearly states that creating ambrosia takes a creature's joy away, or has any other ill effect on the target creature. Your quote from the spell description does not support this position. There is no indication that the physical manifestation of joy (i.e. ambrosia) is the same as the joy itself (and that, therefore, distilling the ambrosia would take the creature's joy away), or that the target suffers any ill effects at all from the spell. Distilled Joy is tagged as harmless. It is widely used by celestials, literal embodiments of D&Dverse good. It is a spell from a domain offered by a good deity.

I believe that you are reading things into the spell that are not there. If you want to rule that casting Distilled Joy does nasty things to people and is a bad thing in your game, that's fine, but that's not what the spell actually says.

Harmful is not actually the same as negative. I consider the loss of joy to be negative, but not harmful. I didn't assert taking away someone's joy has a mechanic effect, but is most certainly will say its negative in terms of quality of life.

Now distilled joy used on a willing target isn't a bad thing, but doing it against someone's will is evil. Sometimes it isn't what you are doing but how. Just because the method isn't inherently evil doesn't mean the goal isn't.

[Karnith]

I consider the loss of joy to be negative, but not harmful. I didn't assert taking away someone's joy has a mechanic effect, but is most certainly will say its negative in terms of quality of life.Again, where does the spell say that it takes away a creature's joy? Specifically, where does the Distilled Joy spell, or the description of Ambrosia, say that it causes the target creature to stop experiencing whatever joy/bliss/pleasure/whatever it was feeling, or that it has any other negative effect on the target creature? I frankly don't see it (ambrosia is a product of a creature's joy/bliss/pleasure/whatever, not the actual joy itself), and without that particular bit the only issue I see is that of consent (i.e. "is it right to cast a harmless spell on someone without them knowing?"). Which, granted, is a moral issue all on its own.

[ryu]

Again, where does the spell say that it takes away a creature's joy? Specifically, where does the Distilled Joy spell, or the description of Ambrosia, say that it causes the target creature to stop experiencing whatever joy/bliss/pleasure/whatever it was feeling? I frankly don't see it (ambrosia is a product of a creature's joy/bliss/pleasure/whatever, not the actual joy itself), and without that particular bit the only issue I see is that of consent (i.e. "is it right to cast a harmless spell on someone without them knowing?").

Also why bother not telling? ''Hello honored customer. You're just in time for the noon special in room 3. Half price on the transaction so long as you consent to have the joy released into the act distilled into ambrosia. No actual effect on you, and cheaper cost to boot. deal?''

[Karnith]

Also why bother not telling? ''Hello honored customer. You're just in time for the noon special in room 3. Half price on the transaction so long as you consent to have the joy released into the act distilled into ambrosia. No actual effect on you, and cheaper cost to boot. deal?''Well, Distilled Joy only has a range of touch, so the room might get a bit, ah, crowded for some people's tastes. Yes, yes, Spectral Hand, traps, and such, I know

[Vogonjeltz]

Also why bother not telling? ''Hello honored customer. You're just in time for the noon special in room 3. Half price on the transaction so long as you consent to have the joy released into the act distilled into ambrosia. No actual effect on you, and cheaper cost to boot. deal?''

See, that I don't think is problematic, only I can't imagine who would accept such a deal twice, or not eschew a place that did that going into the future.

*Eew, I didn't consider that part Karnith.

[ryu]

Well, Distilled Joy only has a range of touch, so the room might get a bit, ah, crowded for some people's tastes. Yes, yes, Spectral Hand, traps, and such, I know

Actually wondrous architecture. The bed itself is doing it.

[icefractal]

I don't see any evidence that the spell removes any joy from the target. When we set up a solar panel to gain power from sunlight, we aren't reducing the amount of energy the sun has left.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't see any evidence that the spell removes any joy from the target. When we set up a solar panel to gain power from sunlight, we aren't reducing the amount of energy the sun has left.

A solar panel is simply converting the sunlight into energy, joy is an internalized emotion that is being taken. Apples and oranges as a comparison.

[georgie_leech]

A solar panel is simply converting the sunlight into energy, joy is an internalized emotion that is being taken. Apples and oranges as a comparison.

I disagree. The ability of laughter to be infectious without diminishing the joy of those experiencing it clearly indicates that joy propagates and spreads rather than concentrates, such as in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbJweTvzag) where the mere sound/sight of someone else laughing is enough to make some fail the challenge. Clearly, a spell that utilises such ambient joy dispersal doesn't need to steal it from anyone.

/overthinking

[Vogonjeltz]

I disagree. The ability of laughter to be infectious without diminishing the joy of those experiencing it clearly indicates that joy propagates and spreads rather than concentrates, such as in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbJweTvzag) where the mere sound/sight of someone else laughing is enough to make some fail the challenge. Clearly, a spell that utilises such ambient joy dispersal doesn't need to steal it from anyone.

/overthinking

Laughter being infectious is a literary device, laughter is not actually an infection.

The spell as written takes someone's joy to turn it into a physical object.

[ryu]

Laughter being infectious is a literary device, laughter is not actually an infection.

The spell as written takes someone's joy to turn it into a physical object.

Actually it really is. People are scientifically demonstrably more statistically likely to laugh in the presence of a laughing person. The same can be said for yawning and several other similar actions.

[SiuiS]

So reading the Book of Exalted deeds/Vile Darkness in preparation for campaign and found the distilled joy and liquid pain spells.

These spells seem ideal for abuse in Eberron, as I can easily see the Dragonmarked houses having an eternal wand of distilled joy on hand in brothels to farm the activities there, ahem.

By the same standard, as healing is done a lot more via the heal skill by the halfings, I can still see a side line in liquid pain as well while care being supplied. A little harder as cannot make an eternal wand of this spells as 4th level.

The XP is not huge, but would enough to be very attractive for all the low level item creation in that world, as articfers cannot drain xp until level five from items.

I like the idea that the healers profit from your pain both in gold for treatment as well literal pain, maybe offer a discount if you are willing to have pain bottled?

You missed the caveats.

Distillers joy requires actual, honest to god joy; an intimate lovemaking session would qualify but a quick jolly ride at a whorehouse would not. You'd waste your system.

Liquid pain requires pain so strenuous it either deals constitution damage or can only be done a certain number of times per creature ever, with the last application ending their life.

[ChaoticDitz]

You missed the caveats.

Distillers joy requires actual, honest to god joy; an intimate lovemaking session would qualify but a quick jolly ride at a whorehouse would not. You'd waste your system.

Liquid pain requires pain so strenuous it either deals constitution damage or can only be done a certain number of times per creature ever, with the last application ending their life.

For example, melting their fingers into actual liquids. Liquid pain! :smallbiggrin:

... What? Nice guys don't make the big bucks! :smallmad: In D&D or comedy!

[Crake]

You missed the caveats.

Distillers joy requires actual, honest to god joy; an intimate lovemaking session would qualify but a quick jolly ride at a whorehouse would not. You'd waste your system.

Liquid pain requires pain so strenuous it either deals constitution damage or can only be done a certain number of times per creature ever, with the last application ending their life.

Do you have rules citations for those? Or is that just your opinion?

[rmnimoc]

What? Nice guys don't make the big bucks! :smallmad: In D&D or comedy!


Do you have rules citations for those? Or is that just your opinion?

Pretty sure nice guys not making big bucks isn't RAW.

[dreadwind80]

I see no evidence in spell description that liquid pain can only ever be produced a few times ever. It is unclear with the Con description, I assume this means there is a limit to how much can be taken in one go via days of exposure or repeated casting in one day via various means.

So, as an experiment - how much should be charged for this service and for the product?

I can see a market for this in high magic settings, earn GP by selling your pain, the magic alternative to the desperate act of selling a kidney.

The other alternative as evil, but probably not illegal in most settings, use an animal, the spell has to be a creature, does not state humanoid.

[Segev]

Well, Distilled Joy only has a range of touch, so the room might get a bit, ah, crowded for some people's tastes. Yes, yes, Spectral Hand, traps, and such, I know

Well, sorcerers and sorceresses are known for having high charisma. Who says you need the service-provider and the spellcaster to be two different people?

[Fax Celestis]

Pretty sure nice guys not making big bucks isn't RAW.

No, but it's RAMS.

[Coidzor]

You missed the caveats.

Distillers joy requires actual, honest to god joy; an intimate lovemaking session would qualify but a quick jolly ride at a whorehouse would not. You'd waste your system.

Liquid pain requires pain so strenuous it either deals constitution damage or can only be done a certain number of times per creature ever, with the last application ending their life.

Hence why you use the symbol of pain and the nipple ring to get your distilled joy.

[Particle_Man]

This reminds me of me asking one of the people making GURPS (Sean Punch?) about why mages ever left their homes when they could cast "Create Servant" (an illusion/creation spell that creates a temporary servant), with an option to give that servant any skill at 16 (very good skill level in GURPS), and one of the many, many skills in GURPS that qualified was erotic arts, which is exactly what it sounds like.

The answer I got was "they have to quest for bigger and bigger crystals for extra mana points, of course!". :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

Do you have rules citations for those? Or is that just your opinion?

Read the rules on the phenomena. Distillers joy specifies actual joy (even going so far as to describe the categorical love making required) in the spell description.


I see no evidence in spell description that liquid pain can only ever be produced a few times ever. It is unclear with the Con description, I assume this means there is a limit to how much can be taken in one go via days of exposure or repeated casting in one day via various means.

That's how I play it, personally, but by RAW it just says that any creature has a finite maximum, with no reset.


Hence why you use the symbol of pain and the nipple ring to get your distilled joy.

Too small.

Masochism, eternity of torture, extract pain, distilled joy, time-accelerated demiplane. Our sorcerer ended up with a literal ocean of the stuff, and a two million year high from just wallowing in it. That was a weird game.

If you just want crafting though, you're better off with a war forged cohort with sanctum spell, scribe scroll, and a time accelerated demiplane.