New player - bard advice?

[ramrod]

Hi guys,

(This is ramrods gf, Gaia not ramrod)

I have just been introduced to d and d and my first real class is a bard (don't talk me out of it! :P ) I have access to phb and unearthed arcana. The DM is open to suggestions for other books if required. We are starting at fifth level in a homebrew campaign.

Do you have any advice on how to make the bard better? The DM also allows up to two flaws for bonus feats!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[fishyfishyfishy]

Hi guys,

(This is ramrods gf, Gaia not ramrod)

I have just been introduced to d and d and my first real class is a bard (don't talk me out of it! :P ) I have access to phb and unearthed arcana. The DM is open to suggestions for other books if required. We are starting at fifth level in a homebrew campaign.

Do you have any advice on how to make the bard better? The DM also allows up to two flaws for bonus feats!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Bard is easily one of the most versatile classes. What exactly do you hope to get out of the class? What kind of role do you want to fill?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My advice will greatly depend on what sourcebooks you have available. Bard is a class that perhaps gains more flexibility and power with various sourcebooks than any other class in the 'core' PhB.

My advise will also greatly depend on what you are wanting to do as a Bard. What role do you want to fill? What do you want your character's strengths to be? What do you envision your character doing in a typical adventuring day?

[eggynack]

Bards don't really need to be made that much better. Bards are sweet. The main concern, if you lack the build resources from outside of core, should be your spell list. At 5th you get 6 0th's, 4 1st's, and 3 2nd's. For the 0th's, detect magic, prestidigitation, and summon instrument are a must, ghost sound is good if you're running silent image (you should), and the last one is pretty open, I think. For 1st's, you're definitely going to want grease and silent image, and the other two are somewhat dependent on the specific stuff you want to do. Charm person is a pretty good option, and stuff like summon monster I and unseen servant make for decent utility options. Really though, I don't think that anything outside of grease and silent image is insanely important.

For 2nd's, you're pretty loaded up on options. Alter self is something you're definitely going to want, so I would add that no matter what you're trying to accomplish, and glitterdust is an amazing debuff option. For the third spell, you might be interested in something defensive, like invisibility or mirror image, because those spells are some sweet business. With a good spell list in hand, like the one I've outlined, you should be reasonably capable of helping in just about any encounter, and the bard's excellent non-spell stuff, like great skill stuff, inspire courage, and reasonable stabbing ability, should grant you the ability to help when spells run dry. It's a great class overall, and I doubt that there will be many problems with being good at stuff.

[Godskook]

Here's a handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)
Bard is easily one of the most versatile classes. What exactly do you hope to get out of the class? What kind of role do you want to fill?

Additionally, ask your DM how difficult you should expect encounters to be, and how focused on combat versus roleplay the group is going to be.

A DFI +Snowflake Bard is a melee monster, but is focused on combat in a highly optimized way that some DMs might not appreciate and might cost you too many build options in a more socially oriented game.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, out of the box bard is a pretty great mid-tier class with no changes. The bard got a lot of alternate class features and feat love in books outside of core but they're basically just gravy. Bard has a great spell list and good mechanics for gaining access to them, as well as effectively having a free knowledge skill and the ability to occasionally be useful pumping skill rolls or using mind control effects to get NPCs on your side via music (without books outside of core inspire courage falls off super hard super fast).

In the end, it depends what you want to do. If you want to be a combatant or a combat focused buffer, you'll want to look at books outside of core to get feats, spells, and items that improve your inspire courage. If you want to be the party's skill monkey, look at trading the bardic knowledge class feature for the bardic knack alternate class feature (PHB II -- bard can choose to roll half their bard level + int modifier instead of a skill check on any skill roll they can make, meaning they can't do so for skills that require training unless they have the requisite 1 or .5 ranks in them). If you want to party face then it's just a question of investing your skill points properly and picking a few spells that make you better at it.

[ramrod]

Thanks for the quick reply!

The DM will allow virtually any sourcebook to be used, as long it doesn't abuse any rules and isn't 'munchkining'. My options are fairly open, I don't really know what is possible at the moment. From looking at it, combat seems like the best way to go, the spell casting ability seems fairly weak, but a bonus!

[eggynack]

The DM will allow virtually any sourcebook to be used, as long it doesn't abuse any rules and isn't 'munchkining'. My options are fairly open, I don't really know what is possible at the moment. From looking at it, combat seems like the best way to go, the spell casting ability seems fairly weak, but a bonus!
The spellcasting is only weak compared to what tier one casters are pulling off. Compared to non-casters, and even some of the weaker casters (warmage, healer, adept), it's a very strong ability, and probably one of the best things that a bard has access to, all things considered. Apart from sublime chord though, you're probably not going to be pushing casting with build resources that much though. With broader book access, you should probably check out the inspire courage handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830), and maybe alter some of those spells that I listed as non-definite to non-core stuff.

[graeylin]

Unless your team really needs another melee person, or unless you just love beating things and killing them, I love playing a bard as a support person. Stand back, and let the others do the killing (and take the risks). You get just as much of the reward as they do when it's done, and you sweat less.

giving everyone in your party +1 to hit and damage is good. helping them pick locks, disable devices, use wands from 20 feet away is excellent! Using your own charm to gather intel, be the party voice and face is fabulous.

Personally, I would take either a reach weapon, and stay behind the big guys, or a dart or bow or something, and shoot from behind the melee line. Focus yourself on what a bard can do that the others can't... magic, controlling the battlefield, making the other guys suffer a little, gathering information, etc..

I tend to take a feat to get some extra bardic song usage each day, because I use them a LOT (your mileage may vary with that). Grab some wands of good damage spell, take the advice of the others about glitterdust, grease, silent image. With silent image alone, you can really help your party, or at least, confuse the other side.

[ramrod]

Here's a handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284)

Additionally, ask your DM how difficult you should expect encounters to be, and how focused on combat versus roleplay the group is going to be.

A DFI +Snowflake Bard is a melee monster, but is focused on combat in a highly optimized way that some DMs might not appreciate and might cost you too many build options in a more socially oriented game.

The DM says that there will be social opportunities but mostly in dungeons, it isn't an urban campaign, we will be in dungeons most of the time, but some of the monsters will have opportunities for party races, but not critical. Combat seems like the way to go! Any suggestions!

[ramrod]

Snowflake war dance and jack of all trades looks awesome. The DM has already agreed that he will let it stack with bardic knack :smallredface: will probably also take words of creation, it fits I'm with my attributes and maybe combat panache, but through a pearl of power or wand will take care of that :)

Snowflake seems really popular, is there a way of taking this further that I'm not aware of?

Still open to lots of suggestions!!

[Dread_Head]

Snowflake war dance and jack of all trades looks awesome. The DM has already agreed that he will let it stack with bardic knack :smallredface: will probably also take words of creation, it fits I'm with my attributes and maybe combat panache, but through a pearl of power or wand will take care of that :)

Snowflake seems really popular, is there a way of taking this further that I'm not aware of?

Still open to lots of suggestions!!

To be honest I consider Snowflake Wardance a bit of a trap, you already get plenty of to hit boosts from Inspire Courage so thats less relevant and it means you can't wield a weapon two handed for the bonus damage. And it costs a feat to do so. But ymmv and it can be good if used with two weapon fighting and dragonfire inspiration but this is pretty feat heavy.

You'll want to trade out suggestion for the Song of the heart feat per the Eberron Campaign Setting, choose Inspirational Boost (Spell compendium) as one of your 1st level spells and get a Badge of Valour (Magic Item Compendium). Also you might want to look at getting a Crystal Echoblade (MIC) if your going the combat route for the extra damage and at higher levels look at Slippers of Battledancing (DMG II) and Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Compendium).

You might think the spellcasting looks a bit lacklustre but Glitterdust and Grease are brilliant spells as prone and blinded both cause some pretty hefty penalties.

[Divide by Zero]

If you want to try a more casting and support bard, I'm a fan of Bard 7/Marshal 1/Cleric 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. That gives you 9th level spells, near-full bardic music advancement with a bunch of great stuff to use it on, your Charisma bonus to one of various things for the whole party, and all the Cleric 1 goodies (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773).

If the game is using multiclass penalties or you don't want to use Marshal or Cleric for some reason, just replace them with more Bard or Virtuoso.

[Godskook]

To be honest I consider Snowflake Wardance a bit of a trap, you already get plenty of to hit boosts from Inspire Courage so thats less relevant and it means you can't wield a weapon two handed for the bonus damage. And it costs a feat to do so. But ymmv and it can be good if used with two weapon fighting and dragonfire inspiration but this is pretty feat heavy.

You're over-rating 2-handed weapons. Their strength is in the STR stat, weapon base and PA ratio. When your damage is primarily coming from other sources, 2-weapon fighting or sword&board tend to serve you better.

Especially if you can snag DFI for the truckload of damage it offers.