[3.5] Best Fighter build for 5th level?

[ZeroPresence]

Hey Everyone,

My 6 manned group and I are attempting the Shackled City dungeon (which will bring us to 20th level), and we oftenly find ourselves.... near death, or end up dead. (To sum it up, our DM doesn't hold anything back, we've all died at least twice and had to make whole new characters).

So I'm thinking of making a straight up tanky fighter, but I want to be able to deal a decent amount of damage too. What are your thoughts on race and prestige class(es)?

My personal thought would be Human Fighter with Shadowstriker (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowstriker/) as its prestige class.

Or perhaps a Dwarven Defender (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarven_Defender), but I would not be able to take it until level 7 due to the attack bonus prereq.



We are also allowed 5,000 gp by our DM. If you have any item advice as well then feel free to put it in.

Thanks!

[Blackhawk748]

Im just gonna say that Dwarven Defender works better with the Knight as its original base, that way you can actually force people to attack you while you are in that defensive mode, also D12s for your whole career.

[Darrin]

Best melee build? Warblade 5.

But you didn't mention what sourcebooks are available (Unearthed Arcana? WotC web articles? Dragon Magazine?)

If Tome of Battle isn't in play, then your best melee build would probably be Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4.

[OldTrees1]

Best melee build? Warblade 5.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you missed the words "Human Fighter". The OP wants a Fighter.



@ZeroPresence
What books are available and what do you want to do in addition to tanking and damage?
Also what did you like in Shadowstriker and Dwarven Defender?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you missed the words "Human Fighter". The OP wants a Fighter.

Fighter as the class or the archetype, because it really could go either way, considering he did mention Dwarven Defender, which is most definitely not Fighter the class.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you missed the words "Human Fighter". The OP wants a Fighter.

Of course, you only say that to him, and not the guy who suggested Knight/Dwarven Defender. Your bias is showing.

[OldTrees1]

Of course, you only say that to him, and not the guy who suggested Knight/Dwarven Defender. Your bias is showing.

The tones of the posts were different.
One was "of the two PrCs you were considering, one of them prefers a different base class than you were thinking"
The other was "This other base class is best"
One acknowledge the OP's initial plans and suggested minorly altering them, the other suggested rejecting the initial plans.

Yes, I am biased against discarding the OP's plans.

[Juntao112]

Hey Everyone,

My 6 manned group and I are attempting the Shackled City dungeon (which will bring us to 20th level), and we oftenly find ourselves.... near death, or end up dead. (To sum it up, our DM doesn't hold anything back, we've all died at least twice and had to make whole new characters).

So I'm thinking of making a straight up tanky fighter, but I want to be able to deal a decent amount of damage too. What are your thoughts on race and prestige class(es)?

My personal thought would be Human Fighter with Shadowstriker (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowstriker/) as its prestige class.

Or perhaps a Dwarven Defender (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarven_Defender), but I would not be able to take it until level 7 due to the attack bonus prereq.



We are also allowed 5,000 gp by our DM. If you have any item advice as well then feel free to put it in.

Thanks!

The best four feats for your character are Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip.

[Brookshw]

Best melee build? Warblade 5.


Well that didn't take long.

Is there a limit on on wealth per item? Not much you can do with 5k. For tank seems like armor's your best bet. Amulet o' Nat ac, +1 shield/armor. It's not much but you'll still have 2k left (minus the masterwork gear of course). I'd be a bit worried about the lack of a magic item at that level.

[Stoneback]

If your goal is to protect your casters, then the first six levels of horizon tripper is a good way to start. Even better, it's cheap and doesn't really leave core at all.

You buy a +1 Guisarme, your basic adventuring gear, and then load up on Enlarge Person items. Here is a thread with some builds: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415&page=1


Dwarven Defender is a terrible idea without some auto-taunt. It's special power is that it can...stand still!

Another build which doesn't really leave core, and can play rocket tag as well as any is the Morningstar charger. Here is your feat selection and explanation.

Human Fighter 20
1. Weapon Focus (Morningstar), Power Attack (str 13), Improved Bull Rush
2. Improved Sunder
3. Cleave
4. Weapon Specialization
6. Combat Brute, Shock Trooper
8. Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing)
9. Brutal Strike
10. Three Mountains
12. Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
14. Driving Attack
15. Combat Focus (wis 13)
16. Combat Vigor
18. Combat Stability, Weapon Supremacy
20. Combat Strike


This build is designed to be a hard hitter.

Bull Rushing: The Driving Attack feat. As a full round action with a piercing weapon, make an attack. If it hits, you can bull rush the opponent. Replace your strength modifier on the strength check with the total damage you dealt on the attack. Considering you add strength to damage, this feat is pretty awesome. Just by holding your weapon two-handed, you're getting a higher bonus. Then you add the +6 from the Weapon Focus chain, the magic enhancement bonus of the weapon, any Power Attack damage, etc. to the check. Chances are, you will bull rush. Domino Bull Rush and Directed Bull Rush allow you to bull rush your foe in different directions and lets you knock him into other people and attempt trips against them. Advancing Blows gives you bonuses to attack and damage based on how far you Bull Rushed your opponent.

Tripping: The Driving Attack feat. If you bull rush your opponent at least 10 feet, you can reduce the amount you push them by 10 feet and have them fall prone. This completely avoids another opposed check, instead piggybacking on the bull rush. Further, it avoids the 13 intelligence needed for Combat Expertise. As long as you can bull rush something, you can trip it (so long as it's not untrippable).

Sundering: The bonus to attack and damage from the Weapon Focus chain, coupled with an Adamantine weapon give you the edge. Sundering Cleave from Combat Brute let's you follow through a successful sunder with an attack against your opponent. As usual, the Improved Sunder feat gives a bonus on the attack as well.

Status Effects: Brutal Strike forces your opponent to make a fortitude save (DC = 10 + power attack damage) when you power attack them with a bludgeoning weapon or be Sickened for 1 round. The Three Mountains Style forces your opponent to make a fortitude save whenever you hit them twice in the same round with your morningstar (DC is 10+1/2 level+strength). If they fail, they're Nauseated for 1 round.

Power Attack: Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge dumps the penalty to attack into your AC when charging. Very useful (and dangerous). Momentum Swing increases your attack to damage ratio after using power attack on a charge (I believe). The Weapon Focus chain gives you bonuses to attack, mitigating the penalties to attack from Power Attack.

Defense: The Combat Focus chain adds a +4 to Will saves, Fast Healing 4, and a +8 to avoid bull rushes, trips, and grapples. Weapon Supremacy adds a +1 to AC, allows you to use your Morningstar in a grapple, and adds a +4 versus Disarm attempts.

Full Attacks: The Weapon Focus chain adds bonuses to attack and damage, which are always helpful with more attacks. The Three Mountains Style triggers on two or more hits, so a full attack would force your enemy to save or become Nauseated. Weapon Supremacy allows you to take 10 on an attack as well as add +5 to any attack other than your first in a full attack sequence.

Here's a neat sequence: Open up combat with a Heedless Charge, power attacking for full. At the end of the charge, you actually attack the weapon (if any). Sunder it, going into Sundering Cleave. When you hit the enemy, you trigger Brutal Strike. They fail the save and become Sickened. On their turn, they probably full attack you, though it obviously depends on what you're fighting. On your turn, use Driving Attack as a full round action. Take advantage of Momentum Swing, gaining a 3:1 Power Attack ratio holding your morningstar two-handed. Dump 5 into Power Attack, for a +15 to damage. You hit, and bull rush. Enough to trip them as well. On their turn, they can either get up and move towards you (a bad idea) or get up and move away or attack from range. Depending, you can be set up for another charge, a full attack, or another dirving attack.


I completely avoided any archery feats for a couple of reasons. The first being that this guy needs a lot of feats to do everything I wanted him to do. The second is I don't think Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot really do enough for your archery to warrant the feats. If you're firing into melee, you should be in melee. If you're within 30 feet, you should be in melee. In my opinion, a magic bow should be enough . Rapid Shot adds one attack, and Shot on the Run and Manyshot allow you your mobility while firing. Not worth it in my opinion.

This build also avoids the Belt of the Champion relic, plus the Living Chain or the Sweeping enhancement. If allowed, I would still use the Belt of the Champion in this build for another +10 to your Bull Rushes. I'd probably take out Combat Strike for True Believer, and move the other feats around.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are much tankier classes than Fighter, such as Crusader, but if you want a Fighter then it can still be useful.

Dwarven Defender is a terrible class, unless you have a dozen or more of them standing in a corridor, thwarting an invading army. A single Dwarven Defender is useless if opponents can go around him, so the class has no place in an adventuring party. If you want a tanky dwarven prestige class for an adventurer, Deepstone Sentinel in Tome of Battle is what you're after.

The only real reason to use the Fighter class over another is for the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature in Dungeonscape. The only reason to take more than six levels of Fighter is if you're getting the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, which can easily be reflavored to a bully who's not necessarily a part of any particular organization. Also don't forget about free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). Even then, you only need nine levels of Fighter to get all that, or ten for the bonus feat. You could get eighteen Fighter levels for Weapon Supremacy, but you could just as easily go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 and get that as your Fighter 10 bonus feat at 20th level.

To make the most of Dungeoncrasher you'll need to be large size, or at least have powerful build. I'd suggest the Half-Minotaur template if you want just power, it's only a +1 LA and you can start out with it already bought off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Put it on a Human and you're good. That makes you a Large size Monstrous Humanoid, 40 ft. land speed, +4 natural armor, +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, a secondary gore attack for 1d8, Darkvision 60 ft., Scent, Minotaur Cunning (+4 to escape Maze, always know which way is north), +2 to Search, Spot, and Listen, and Track as a bonus feat.

Go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, with all the above alternate class features, substitution levels, and bonus class features. Start with two flaws, I'd get No Time For Book Learning and Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30), for two extra feats. Your feats should be as follows:
Dreadful Wrath (PGtF, H), EWP: Spiked Chain (F), Combat Reflexes (F), Power Attack (1), Improved Bull Rush (F1), Skill Focus: Intimidate (B), Knock-Back (RoS, 3), Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain (F4), Imperious Command (DotU, 6), Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain (F8), Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2, 9), Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain (12), Ironheart Aura (ToB, WB5), Defensive Sweep (PH2, 15), Iron Will (WB9), Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain (18), Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain (F10).

Your starting equipment should include Large Masterwork Breastplate (550 gp) with a Restful Crystal (MIC, 500 gp), a Healing Belt (MIC, 750 gp), an Anklet of Translocation (MIC, 1,400 gp), a Large Masterwork Spiked Chain (350 gp), a Vest of Resistance +1 (CA, 1,000 gp), a Large Masterwork Spiked Gauntlet (310 gp), three or so Large Javelins (2 gp each), a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for Intimidate (probably a mask or mempo (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1858&bih=1016&q=mempo&oq=mempo&gs_l=img.3..0l10.436.988.0.1236.5.5.0.0.0.0.85.244 .4.4.0....0...1ac.1.36.img..1.4.244.eB3sgRJGzlQ#im gdii=_), 50 gp), and whatever mundane adventuring gear you can get for your remaining 84 gp.

Of course get max ranks in Intimidate, every other skill is secondary to that. Try to get Balance 5+ ranks once you start taking Warblade. You may even want to take your first Warblade level at 1st to start with maneuvers and have more 1st level skill points. Definitely get the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) as soon as possible.

[Particle_Man]

What books are allowed?

[Endarire]

If all is open and you want a "Fighter" concept, Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) is good.

[hemming]

Your starting equipment should include Large Masterwork Breastplate (550 gp) with a Restful Crystal (MIC, 500 gp), a Healing Belt (MIC, 750 gp), an Anklet of Translocation (MIC, 1,400 gp), a Large Masterwork Spiked Chain (350 gp), a Vest of Resistance +1 (CA, 1,000 gp), a Large Masterwork Spiked Gauntlet (310 gp), three or so Large Javelins (2 gp each), a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for Intimidate (probably a mask 50 gp), and whatever mundane adventuring gear you can get for your remaining 84 gp.

This is great gear advice - you could also think about trading out the vest of resistance, restful crystal and healing belt for an enhancement bonus on the spiked chain (particularly if there is another party member who can heal you). It will add 2000 gold to the cost of the chain, but will do an extra D6 damage of your choice acid/fire/electricity/frost.

It is ultimately the DMs decision, but I might speak to him anyway about following wealth by level guidelines in the DMG so you can start w/ 9000 gold.

Edit: You could also think about making the chain adamantine (around 1800 gold I think) - bc it bypasses hardness this makes sundering a feasible option

[OldTrees1]

This is great gear advice - you could also think about trading out the vest of resistance, restful crystal and healing belt for an enhancement bonus on the spiked chain (particularly if there is another party member who can heal you). It will add 2000 gold to the cost of the chain, but will do an extra D6 damage of your choice acid/fire/electricity/frost.

It is ultimately the DMs decision, but I might speak to him anyway about following wealth by level guidelines in the DMG so you can start w/ 9000 gold.

Edit: You could also think about making the chain adamantine (around 1800 gold I think) - bc it bypasses hardness this makes sundering a feasible option

A magic weapon needs to be made a +1 weapon before toy can add Corrosive/Flaming/Shocking/Frost to it. Increasing the chain to a +1 Corrosive weapon would cost 8000gp. Not worth it. In the next level or two they will want to make it a +1 weapon though (2000gp cost).

Adamantine costs +3000gp for a Weapon but would refund the 300gp masterwork cost so that is +2700gp. Also hardness is not a problem at 5th level.

[Incanur]

The Dungeonscape Dungeoncrasher fighter variant seems appropriate for the campaign described in the original post. Also note that 5k at level 5 is considerably lower than default wealth by level - it's only 700gp above what 5th-level NPCs have - so that could be one reason why everybody keeps dying. :smallsmile: Playing a fighter under such circumstances will be rather difficult, but that can just be part of the fun.

[Kraken]

I hate to be the one that comes in and continues to pile on, but dwarven defender is a terrible class. I have seen it tried many times, and it has been never been remotely useful in any real game that I've played. I've seen ways that it could be useful discussed on the internet, and I'm sure there is the occasional scenario where these circumstances have come about in real life, but like the monk, there's all sorts of stuff that looks cool at first, but in practice doesn't pan out. It requires you to take three terrible feats to enter. When you can finally enter it at 8th level, you can only use its core ability once per day, and moving, even a five foot step, ends that ability. Pathfinder almost made it better, but then they stupidly made ending the defensive stance cause you to be fatigued. If you really want the class to work, it needs tweaking. At minimum, I'd suggest using the Pathfinder version, but dropping the clause about dropping the stance making you fatigued.

[VoxRationis]

For one thing, I think your "pick and choose the best of different editions' versions of the same prestige class/feat/whatever" approach negates the very purpose of having rulebooks. D&D isn't about getting whatever you want, 100% of the time.
As for the Dwarven Defender, I would like to address its flaws in the following ways:
-The NPCs do not know that the PC has the Dwarven Defender prestige class. They do not know that his class features prohibit him from moving. All they know is that the fighter is rather difficult to put down. Some enemies will go around him, but that can be mitigated with intelligent positioning BEFORE you enter defensive stance. But in a lot of situations, you expect the goblins or orcs or whatever to dog-pile the fighter regardless, so the mobility loss isn't an issue.
-Related to the above, the usefulness of the Dwarven Defender is largely dependent on terrain. I will not even begin to question that the ability is of no use on a flat plane/plain (both words work). On a forest road, it's questionable. But in your average 5-to-10-foot-wide dungeon corridor, that's very useful. It's not metagaming to say "Well, a fighter trained to block up narrow passages would not be roaming the Great Plains, hiring himself out as a mercenary in an environment he's useless in."
-Prestige classes, in their ideal form, are not supposed to be a free power boost once you hit level 6. They are supposed to be, in the words of the DMG, "more specialized, but slightly more powerful" than base classes. They offer interesting new tricks and tactics at the expense of versatility.