dealing with unrealistic overland speeds

[rrwoods]

I have a character whose speed at 20th level will be 85 ft. My DM is as of yet unconcerned with the consequences of that speed inside encounters, but is concerned that such high speed results in an overland movement that could make the adventuring sections absurd. Teleport presents a similar problem, but the speed allows the character to go places he hasn't been more perfectly than teleport does. In general it's immersion breaking.

The speed at character 20th is Human 30 Dervish +15 (Ex) Blade Dancer +40 (Su) = 85. Blade Dancer is a 3.0 class, so maybe there's some tweaking to be done on that. Any suggestions on how I can work with my DM to make this more manageable? I would be perfectly happy with an overland speed that matched the rest of the party, but at the same time as a player or as a DM I'd want to look for a less arbitrary-feeling solution.

Note that both the DM and I understand that by RAW the 85 feet confers the appropriate overland movement and there's "nothing" we can do about that, but we want to adjust away from RAW to something more satisfactory.

[Juntao112]

Endurance check for marathon running.

[olentu]

Hmm, how are you dealing with, say, phantom steed or buying a gryphon mount. Presumably the same type of solution would apply.

[KillianHawkeye]

A level 20 human Monk moves at a speed of 90 feet per round.

The issue with moving long overland distances is that you are rarely traveling alone, and a group has to move at the speed of its slowest members. So, having one guy that's super fast isn't really a big deal when you've got guys that walk at a speed of 20. Even if everybody gets horses, then you're only going 50-60% faster.

As an example, I play a Scout/Ranger that has a move speed of 40 feet per round. While engaging in overland travel, I can easily move at half speed to use the Survival skill to hunt and gather provisions for myself and my party, and I still keep up with the dwarves and the Paladin in heavy armor.

Even if you're by yourself, the ability to travel two or three times faster than a normal (or 50% faster than a horse) isn't really comparable to teleportation unless the places you're teleporting to aren't actually that far away.

[Matticussama]

Of all the world-shaking consequences that reaching 20th level can cause, is being fast really a major concern? Wizards can create their own dimensions, Clerics can summon forth hosts of angels, and Druids can change their shape into virtually anything imaginable. Of all of these consequences, running faster than average over long distances doesn't seem all that game changing.

[Zanos]

Do keep in mind that a 20th level character is not even close to mortal. This is a character that kills pit fiends, slays dragons, and gives demigods angry looks and could butcher an army wholesale if they made them angry.

I don't think the character being able to move quickly overland is a large concern in the realm of absurdity.

[Phelix-Mu]

Add in a version of armour of the unending hunt (Complete Warrior, I think) for extra fun. Prevents one from tiring from running or something like that, lol. I had a 21 level monk/wizard that had a speed of something stupid like 180'. Hehe, good times.

There are a whole list of more immersion-breaking things than land speeds.

- Falling damage.

- Sling loading times.

- Having to stand still while punching people very fast.

- Knowing how to use a bow and being good at it without knowing how to hit what you are aiming at.

- Magic needs to roll to avoid succeeding (saving throws), while swinging a sword needs to roll to succeed. Despite the fact that fluff suggests using magic requires more work than swinging a sword.

[Invader]

Why are you traveling by walking at level 20?

[Divide by Zero]

Why are you traveling by walking at level 20?

For that matter, if walking really fast breaks the game at level 20, then something really weird is going on.

[rrwoods]

Why are you traveling by walking at level 20?

other "at level 20" concerns
OK -- at level 10 my speed is 65 (Human 30 Dervish +5 Blade Dancer +30).

I don't think it's "broken", and neither does the DM. That's not the issue. The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.

This is something the DM and I agree is a problem and can't find a solution for, other than "don't go faster on-foot than the rest of the party during overland travel". If that's the best solution, then so be it, we will use it. Was just wondering if anyone else had insight into this.

EDIT: Embarrassingly, neither of us realized the Monk gets similar speed bonuses. There is a monk in the party too, so I won't be the only character with such bonuses (and in fact before 10th level the monk will actually be significantly faster than me). Something for us to consider.

[QuidEst]

It's a mere three times normal speed. Yes, you are outpacing a horse, but it's not even twice as fast as a normal horse. If it's genuinely a problem (see above), then just go with the overland speed of a horse. Or just ride a horse.

I wouldn't consider it immersion-breaking. Chalk it up to magic sandals. Seven-league boots are a classic, after all!

[Deophaun]

The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.
Buy your character some bell bottom pants and imagine the scenes of him walking/running in slow motion with a brek-kek-kek-kek sound effect, and you're good.

[olentu]

OK -- at level 10 my speed is 65 (Human 30 Dervish +5 Blade Dancer +30).

I don't think it's "broken", and neither does the DM. That's not the issue. The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.

This is something the DM and I agree is a problem and can't find a solution for, other than "don't go faster on-foot than the rest of the party during overland travel". If that's the best solution, then so be it, we will use it. Was just wondering if anyone else had insight into this.

Hmm, how are you dealing with the ability for characters to consistently drop them selves out of airplanes, get eaten whole by giant monsters, or the like, without any impediment to their abilities. Presumably the same type of solution would work.

Edit: Wait, isn't blade dancer fast movement actually a supernatural ability, and thus magical. That would kind of resolve the matter right there.

[Divide by Zero]

I don't think it's "broken", and neither does the DM. That's not the issue. The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Even at level 10, most PCs are literally superhuman. Just look at some of the things in the epic rules you can do with sufficiently high skill modifiers.

[Drachasor]

I don't think it's "broken", and neither does the DM. That's not the issue. The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.

At 10th level, most characters will likely survive a fall of a mile.

A Fighter to use a sword to cleave right through solid stone (stone golems) or metal (iron golem). Heck, they can hurt them with a wooden club.

A 1st level character can break Olympic records.

These same characters can be hit by something that's a dozens to hundreds of tons charging at them and be fine.

You are doing a grave disservice to non-casters by insisting that they have to be 100% bound by the physical laws of our reality. D&D isn't our reality and the people in it don't follow the same rules. Even the non-magical ones can do things that are just flat-out impossible, and this becomes more and more common at higher levels.

It's this kind of insistence that lies at the root of non-casters not being able to have nice things. Go watch the Adventures of Baron Münchhausen or the like for a better perspective. Or consider higher level characters to be more like Superheroes like Captain America.

In any case, stop the insane double standard of allowing one character to bend reality to his whim and then freaking out when another characters can jog at 30mph. Seriously, it's ridiculous to get worried over such things and it is grossly unfair to non-casters.

[eggynack]

OK -- at level 10 my speed is 65 (Human 30 Dervish +5 Blade Dancer +30).

I don't think it's "broken", and neither does the DM. That's not the issue. The issue is the breaking of immersion from a nonmagical ability allowing a character to move at ~15 mph without even running.
I don't understand why it would significantly break immersion. By level five, you should be hitting the pinnacle of real world speediness. By level ten, you should be amazing fantasy heroes who can stride across the world like it's nothing, especially if you invest in it. Instead of imagining yourself running at that speed, imagine Hercules doing so. It seems a lot more plausible. It feels a lot like you and your DM are getting trapped in the guy at the gym fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303089).

[Drachasor]

I don't understand why it would significantly break immersion. By level five, you should be hitting the pinnacle of real world speediness. By level ten, you should be amazing fantasy heroes who can stride across the world like it's nothing, especially if you invest in it. Instead of imagining yourself running at that speed, imagine Hercules doing so. It seems a lot more plausible. It feels a lot like you and your DM are getting trapped in the guy at the gym fallacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303089).

And to be clear, at level 5 anyone with physical skills is going to be easily hitting peak real world performance or better. It is quite easy to do it at level 1 with minimum effort.

Also, here's another classic tale of how mandating real-world limits on some characters and not others leads to trouble. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

[Invader]

At 10th level, most characters will likely survive a fall of a mile.

A Fighter to use a sword to cleave right through solid stone (stone golems) or metal (iron golem). Heck, they can hurt them with a wooden club.

A 1st level character can break Olympic records.

These same characters can be hit by something that's a dozens to hundreds of tons charging at them and be fine.

You are doing a grave disservice to non-casters by insisting that they have to be 100% bound by the physical laws of our reality. D&D isn't our reality and the people in it don't follow the same rules. Even the non-magical ones can do things that are just flat-out impossible, and this becomes more and more common at higher levels.

It's this kind of insistence that lies at the root of non-casters not being able to have nice things. Go watch the Adventures of Baron Münchhausen or the like for a better perspective. Or consider higher level characters to be more like Superheroes like Captain America.

In any case, stop the insane double standard of allowing one character to bend reality to his whim and then freaking out when another characters can jog at 30mph. Seriously, it's ridiculous to get worried over such things and it is grossly unfair to non-casters.


I don't understand why it would significantly break immersion. By level five, you should be hitting the pinnacle of real world speediness. By level ten, you should be amazing fantasy heroes who can stride across the world like it's nothing, especially if you invest in it. Instead of imagining yourself running at that speed, imagine Hercules doing so. It seems a lot more plausible. It feels a lot like you and your DM are getting trapped in the guy at the gym fallacy.

Pretty much both of these things.

[rrwoods]

The points that the monk moves 90 all on their own, and that BD's fast movement is (Su) rather than (Ex) have caused us to reconsider and probably just flat-out go with it as written. Thanks for the help guys.

[NotAnAardvark]

"Unrealistic" in a game about gigantic flying lizard sorcerers and brain devouring octopuses from outer space.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I have a character whose speed at 20th level will be 85 ft. My DM is as of yet unconcerned with the consequences of that speed inside encounters, but is concerned that such high speed results in an overland movement that could make the adventuring sections absurd. Teleport presents a similar problem, but the speed allows the character to go places he hasn't been more perfectly than teleport does. In general it's immersion breaking.
All I read was "My characters likes to cause random, solo encounters."

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, running around at 180' or so as an epic monk was seriously some of the least complicated, but most rewarding things I've done lately with a character. I mean, others in the party were windwalking or teleporting. Meh, that's too easy. I liked being self-reliant but still very capable, and purposely minimizing my magic-use as an optimization challenge to myself.

[TuggyNE]

Of all the world-shaking consequences that reaching 20th level can cause, is being fast really a major concern? Wizards can create their own dimensions, Clerics can summon forth hosts of angels, and Druids can change their shape into virtually anything imaginable. Of all of these consequences, running faster than average over long distances doesn't seem all that game changing.

Heh. All I could think of was "oh, the OP is being BMX Bandit … without the BMX."

Also, there are accounts of humans winning harness races — against, y'know, horses. So with 20 levels under your belt, bumping that up another 50% doesn't seem too implausible.

[shylocke]

Had this sorta problem in an old campaign. We had a ship was could travel at 180mph. Had an earth keel SK we could go everywhere. DM asked us to use restraint. Good getaway vehicle though.

[Drachasor]

The points that the monk moves 90 all on their own, and that BD's fast movement is (Su) rather than (Ex) have caused us to reconsider and probably just flat-out go with it as written. Thanks for the help guys.

(EX) covers things that break the laws of physics in our reality.

You should not judge epic heroes by real-world physics. That's insane.

[Fouredged Sword]

Why hasn't the party wizard built some effigy construct mounts with 200ft fly speeds yet? They run to cover 800ft a round, can can do so 24 hours a day, and they fly, so no stopping or diversions.

Again, tier 1 vs tier 3-4