How much does really bad Con hurt a wizard?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Assuming the possibility that they might have something like Fairie Mysteries Initiative to potentially not be getting 1 hp per level, but not accounting for things like lich and necropolitan that completely negate Con in its entirety, how much does having a really crappy Con score hurt a wizard? I know it puts the suck on Concentration and will practically force *most* people to spend a feat on FMI when they might want to use it on something else, but other than those two things there's only one really relevant thing it does, and even with 14 Con wizards have trouble reliably overcoming Fort saves so even that part of the equation is somewhat diminished.

So yeah. Assigning some tangible ranking to it other than "standard go-to secondary focus", how relevant is the Con score to the wizard in the grand scheme of things?

[eggynack]

Stats don't really have that many benefits that are difficult to measure. I can't really see any constitution based things things relevant to wizards listed in the x stat to y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732), and wizards don't really get any constitution based class features that I'm aware of, so what is written in the stat description is pretty much the entire story. So, it's pretty much as you implied. If you rely on constitution for HP, it's a very important secondary stat. If you do not, then you rely on it quite a bit less, though it still might be better than strength, charisma, or maybe wisdom. It'd probably become something of a tertiary stat as a result, though it might be worse than wisdom, as I mentioned.

[Psyren]

Level plays a big factor here. At low levels, not only can an errant crossbow bolt end your career as the next Elminster quite early, so too can very simple things like a forced march, a bad bout of Ghoul Fever, or even holding your breath as you escape a smoke-filled inn/sinking rowboat.

[Divide by Zero]

HP and Fort saves, basically. It matters a little for Concentration at the early levels, but that quickly gets to the point where you're making most relevant checks regardless. I can't think of anything else it affects that they care about.

[Drachasor]

It matters a fair bit at all levels.

At low levels it is REALLY key for hit points. And it will matter some at higher levels. It matters more at higher levels if you are not playing in a high-op game using lots of tricks.

And generally you might always get caught in your real body or something with the same stats (astral projection). It is good to have hit points and be able to resist instant-death effects that are fort-related.

That said, Will is far more important to the high level wizard. Fort-based stuff tends to just kill you. It's the Will-based stuff that traps your soul/essence somewhere that can take you out of the game even if you are in a fake body or the like. On the other hand, Suspended Animation and some other spells are fort-based. However, a lot of the time you can get by with Magic Jar, Shape Change, or something else to alter your constitution, so it doesn't matter as much at high levels.

That said, it's a good idea to have a minimum of 12 and to get a +6 con item. Life is just a bit safer that way.

[HunterOfJello]

It doesn't matter whatsoever until it you realize that an enemy's fireball did 40 damage and you have a total of 34 max hit points at level 12.

The only reason I can think of why a living* spellcaster shouldn't have an item of +4 Constitution is if they're wearing an item of +6 Constitution. It's not the most important thing for a wizard to focus on, but all characters need the ability to take at least 1 solid hit per fight. If getting hit a single time within a fight will kill you, then you need more hp.




* Edited

[Sian]

The only reason I can think of why a spellcaster shouldn't have an item of +4 Constitution is if they're wearing an item of +6 Constitution.

A Necropolitian Spellcaster wouldn't care having Con: - :smalltongue:

[Averis Vol]

It depends on how well optimised the character is. If you have all day wards against the nastier things like negative levels, poisons, diseases, and energy drain/damage, then fairly little.

If you're still slinging around short range spells with only mage armor and shield up, it probably matters a lot (Especially because I only think you can replace will and reflex saves with int)

[JusticeZero]

The relevant story I have on this is the time I drove 50 miles to a game, played a wizard, had the adventure open with a fireball that knocked me down to -18 HP, then had to drive home.

[Darrin]

I am reminded of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMLcy86bZNw

[SinsI]

It matters a fair bit at all levels.

It becomes completely irrelevant at lvl 15, once you get Polymorph Any Object and turn yourself into a form with whatever Str, Con and Dex you want.

[Kraken]

High con is useful for, if nothing else, making sure baleful polymorph, flesh to stone, ghoul touch, stinking cloud, blindness/deafness, and similar annoyances are less likely to slow you down. And those are all just spells, tons other abilities, with poison probably being the most prolific (whether natural or manufactured), hit fort saves. There are enough fort based save-or-be-screwed effects that I always prioritize getting a good con. Frankly, the same argument applies to wis and dex too, regardless of your class, though you can obviously neglect whichever save your class has a good progression in somewhat.

[ace rooster]

It becomes completely irrelevant at lvl 15, once you get Polymorph Any Object and turn yourself into a form with whatever Str, Con and Dex you want.

Except that anti-magic tricks are fairly standard anti caster tactics at that level, and if your con 9 wizard even momentarily walks into an antimagic field with 30 points of damage he will drop. Magically boosting con is never going to be a reliable way of avoiding hit point death.

You are right that it can be fairly irrelevent depending on how the wizard is played and the campaign style. In a high op rocket tag game 30hp is as good as 100, as hit point death is not your primary concern. A decent con score is some defence against fort saves, but if you are making them at all something has gotten past your primary defences. Out of combat it is unlikely to be relevent, as any fort save means something (generally predictable) has occured that you do not have magic to help with.

[Drachasor]

Except that anti-magic tricks are fairly standard anti caster tactics at that level, and if your con 9 wizard even momentarily walks into an antimagic field with 30 points of damage he will drop. Magically boosting con is never going to be a reliable way of avoiding hit point death.

You are right that it can be fairly irrelevent depending on how the wizard is played and the campaign style. In a high op rocket tag game 30hp is as good as 100, as hit point death is not your primary concern. A decent con score is some defence against fort saves, but if you are making them at all something has gotten past your primary defences. Out of combat it is unlikely to be relevent, as any fort save means something (generally predictable) has occured that you do not have magic to help with.

That's all I really meant. It can come up at higher levels. It's not like it costs much to get a +4 con item and by 17+ even a +6 item isn't that much. It's a nice bit of insurance for the rare times you need it. And early on it is much more important so it is good to start with a base 12 or 14.

Since the polymorph like of spells doesn't change your hit points, it is good to have a good con for that reason too. Now sure, this doesn't matter if you are in a different body, but the only way to permanently get out of that is with True Mind Switch or a similar effect.

I'd say it is more important than strength or dexterity for instance. And more important that charisma. Generally speaking.

Certainly at high levels and high optimization levels, none of your starting physical stats matter; you won't be using them. But that doesn't happen in most games, which we should also consider. And in any case, if you are starting at level 1, constitution matters quite a bit for much of your career even in a high-op situations.

At moderately high op where you aren't using another body per se, constitution is still important. It can help avoid "death" -- which isn't real death but wastes time.

[Slipperychicken]

The relevant story I have on this is the time I drove 50 miles to a game, played a wizard, had the adventure open with a fireball that knocked me down to -18 HP, then had to drive home.

Why didn't you just make a new character? Or at the very worst, an exact copy of that same wizard?

[Blkmge]

It becomes completely irrelevant at lvl 15, once you get Polymorph Any Object and turn yourself into a form with whatever Str, Con and Dex you want.

Then walk into a Mage's Disjunction, Antimagic Field, or get hit with a dispel/greater dispel magic and be back to square one.

Nevermind that you won't always be polymorph'd. Sometimes you need to be yourself or sleeping... what's stopping the assassin from liberally applying some sassone leaf residue to your staff, spellbooks or even your skivvies? Slipping some powdered Id moss into your drinks and meals? With a weak fort save of +6 at 20, you're more than likely to be severely crippled, if not outright wounded by such attacks. (Yes, they are as lethal to rogues and bards but both are more melee-focused and as such, likely to have bonuses from a high con in order to survive hits).

[Divide by Zero]

what's stopping the assassin from liberally applying some sassone leaf residue to your staff, spellbooks or even your skivvies?

If an assassin can get access to your equipment while you're sleeping past about level 4, then you have to turn in your Wizard Card.

[Togo]

Con is useful, but I think dex is a higher priority. Below 28 point buy, you're looking at a trade between the two, or lowering int to get both.

[Blkmge]

If an assassin can get access to your equipment while you're sleeping past about level 4, then you have to turn in your Wizard Card.

Anything the characters can do, an NPC can do as well - nothing is stopping from the old bump 'n' switch (ala pickpockets via sleight of hand), a crossbowman from a window above the street or just indiscriminate tainting of the village/inn's food & water. Nor is there any rule against a hired assassin being prepared for the usual 'tricks' used by adventurers, especially well-known ones - if the characters are enough of a threat to warrant an assassin, then the person behind it is going to make damn sure their man is well-equipped. Wards can be bypassed or brought down, lookouts isolated and neutralized, and bribes given to get access where one shouldn't. Assassins are lethal in reality because they strike when one's guard is down, and no one can be vigilant for all threats at all times. Even more so in D&D when there are not just mundane but arcane and divine threats as well.

NPCs also can do other things that characters cannot, such as confiscating weapons in the name of 'peace' while within a town or presence of authority figures. All of which create weakness for an assassin to creatively poison or weaken a PC. Sure, a mage may protect his spellbook with a fire trap.. but would a bard do the same for his scrolls of songs and epic ballads? :)

[ericgrau]

Ya wizards that just plain win at all levels only appear in forums. Especially when foes have magic too. In general anything to help your hp, AC, saves or anything 24 hours and passive is nice.

I had a caster where I considered making con higher than my mental, because few of my spells had saves anyway and I was starting at high enough level that I had plenty of spells per day.

[Psyren]

I had a caster where I considered making con higher than my mental, because few of my spells had saves anyway and I was starting at high enough level that I had plenty of spells per day.

Whynotboth.jpeg? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/scarred-witch-doctor-witch-orc) :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

That may be the first standalone SAD class I've seen. Looks like fun to play. I wish Cook People didn't require level 10 or I'd use it liberally for bear's endurance and lols I think. I mean by level 11 or 12 I'd probably have a permanent item of +4 con.

[Psyren]

That may be the first standalone SAD class I've seen. Looks like fun to play. I wish Cook People didn't require level 10 or I'd use it liberally for bear's endurance and lols I think.

Even better - Paizo recently ruled (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c) that half-races are eligible for all options reserved for members of the parent race. So half-orcs can take orc-only archetypes and feats, half-elves can do the same for elf-only options etc.

This means that half-orcs are eligible for this archetype, and can assign their floating +2 to Con, starting the game with 20 in their casting stat without impacting their low-level survivability.

[ericgrau]

Let's see...
18+2=20 con = 17 points
12 wis, 12 dex = 4 points
7 cha, 7 int, 7 str = -12 points
9 pb, low enough even for "low fantasy". Dang. May as well raise the other 5 stats a little. Or maybe just dex. I mean sure int could help a little, but when it takes 5 points out of your point buy just for the second skill point, how bad do you need skills anyway?

Also works well with orc ferocity, since PF lets you go to -con score hp.

[Augmental]

Anything the characters can do, an NPC can do as well - nothing is stopping from the old bump 'n' switch (ala pickpockets via sleight of hand),

Unless the wizard has a bag of holding.


a crossbowman from a window above the street

Protection from arrows lasts for 1 hour per level.


or just indiscriminate tainting of the village/inn's food & water.

And you think the wizard isn't going to make the connection after several villagers fall sick from drinking from the well?


Sure, a mage may protect his spellbook with a fire trap.. but would a bard do the same for his scrolls of songs and epic ballads? :)

This thread is talking about wizards.

[ericgrau]

Protection from arrows lasts for 1 hour per level.
He can't have every spell prepared simultaneously for every threat, as much as forum people would like to think that.

[Psyren]

And protection from arrows is a silly protection anyway, because it does nothing to stop even a +1 bow.

[Divide by Zero]

He can't have every spell prepared simultaneously for every threat, as much as forum people would like to think that.

It's a second level spell. It's really not that much of an investment beyond low levels (when casters are most vulnerable in general anyway), and it's a perfectly reasonable precaution for a 18+ Int character who knows that they're particularly vulnerable to assassination.

[ericgrau]

I was referring to the other 937 threats just as common as arrows. It's easy enough to name a counter to a single example, but that doesn't solve all possible mundane and magical assassination threats when you cannot have all spells active simultaneously.

[Augmental]

I was referring to the other 937 threats just as common as arrows. It's easy enough to name a counter to a single example, but that doesn't solve all possible mundane and magical assassination threats when you cannot have all spells active simultaneously.

Nor can every mundane and magical assassination threat be attempted simultaneously.

[ericgrau]

Nor can every mundane and magical assassination threat be attempted simultaneously.
They don't need to be. Only a single one of the 934 that you aren't ready for.

[Augmental]

They don't need to be. Only the one you aren't ready for.

Assuming the wizard's morning divinations don't catch it first.

[Blkmge]

Unless the wizard has a bag of holding.

Protection from arrows lasts for 1 hour per level.

And you think the wizard isn't going to make the connection after several villagers fall sick from drinking from the well?

This thread is talking about wizards.
1) Unless the wizard is naked, or keeps everything in bag something can be swiped or even deposited. A random coin slipped into the pocket - the wizard pulls it out and make save vs fort or suffer from the effects (anything from ability loss to direct damage). Unless you are paranoid you won't even think anything about it.

2) At low levels, PCs lack the ability to foretell of attempts on their lofe reliably (Foresight is 9th level). Also arrow / bow +1 = bypasses the spell.

3) If it happens beforehand, sure. What if it happens while they're eating? Or if it is Id moss in the ale - drunk people are already stupid, could a wizard really tell the difference of losing a few more int points?

4) Illustration of a point. A wizard's spell books and magic items are definitely hard to target but it can be done: PCs steal spell books after all. However what wizard traps his backup dagger? Or inspects his bedroll?

[Blkmge]

Assuming the wizard's morning divinations don't catch it first.

The only divination spell that will guarantee the wizard knows to expect an attempt prior to Foresight is "Contact Other Plane" - which doesn't guarantee anything.
1) First the player needs to suspect that there will be an attempt on his life.
2) The character needs to ask, in fashion that elicits a single word response, if there will be an attempt on their life. (And spend several questions getting particulars about it) *1
3) The being they contact needs to know if there is an attempt on his life. *2
4) The being has to decide to tell the truth rather than manipulate or deny the truth.


Even if the being tells the truth, the Sidhe legends show that even telling the truth is as damning as a lie. They could be referring to a single event, or refer to different events in sequence. Sample answers and their obfuscation include:
"Will there be an attempt to kill us today?"
No - the the assassin will not be attempting to kill you, he will kill you. Or no, the assassin has no desire to kill you today, but instead will be settling for incapacitating you and torturing you for a day to see what you know.
Yes - the tree will fall and if you are not prepared, it will kill you.

"Do I need to prepare Detect Poison today?"
Yes - not because you will be targeted by an attack, but because someone will need you cast it on them in order for them to assist you. Or yes, because your teammate is going to step on a viper's nest and has a good chance of being bitten.
No - because the assassin isn't going to be using poison, he's going to be lacing your rooms in the inn with diseased vermin instead.

"How many times will I fight today?"
Once - Because the assassin won't engage you directly, so there will be no fight.

Etc. Creative answers that are very much true, can be very deceptive. Even 'good' beings are very remote and distant from mortal concerns. A LG entity may take a literal meaning to everything asked of it while a chaotic good will answer truthfully, but in a roundabout way that is ambiguous or symbolic, leaving much to the interpretation of the caster

Just because they are a planar being, doesn't mean they'll know every detail about what's going on in the City-State of Theraville, or whatever.

[Drachasor]

The only divination spell that will guarantee the wizard knows to expect an attempt is "Contact Other Plane" - which doesn't guarantee anything.
1) First the player needs to suspect that there will be an attempt on his life.
2) The character needs to ask, in a yes or no fashion, if there will be an attempt. (And spend several questions getting particulars about it) *1
3) The being they contact needs to know if there is an attempt on his life. *2
4) The being has to decide to tell the truth rather than manipulate or deny the truth.


Even if the being tells the truth, the Sidhe legends show that even telling the truth is as damning as a lie. They could be referring to a single event, or refer to different events in sequence. Sample answers and their obfuscation include:
"Will there be an attempt to kill us today?"
No - the the assassin will not be attempting to kill you, he will kill you. Or no, the assassin has no desire to kill you today, but instead will be settling for incapacitating you and torturing you for a day to see what you know.
Yes - the tree will fall and if you are not prepared, it will kill you.

"Do I need to prepare Detect Poison today?"
Yes - not because you will be targeted by an attack, but because someone will need you cast it on them in order for them to assist you. Or yes, because your teammate is going to step on a viper's nest and has a good chance of being bitten.
No - because the assassin isn't going to be using poison, he's going to be lacing your rooms in the inn with diseased vermin instead.

Just because they are a planar being, doesn't mean they'll know every detail about what's going on in the City-State of Theraville, or whatever.

Contact Other Plane is far from perfect. But I think you've demonstrated a very poor capability for phrasing questions. Also, attempting to do something does not imply lack of success. Hint: Learn to make lists.

3&4 are the real problems with COP; Lack of knowledge and truthful denial to share knowledge.

[Blkmge]

Contact Other Plane is far from perfect. But I think you've demonstrated a very poor capability for phrasing questions. Also, attempting to do something does not imply lack of success. Hint: Learn to make lists.

3&4 are the real problems with COP; Lack of knowledge and truthful denial to share knowledge.

I'm half asleep and doing simple scenarios. Doesn't change that there are many ways to be misinformed or overly trusting the source of knowledge. :)

Thanks though

[ericgrau]

Besides failure chance there's also the chance of losing all casting for a week or more.

And most of all anything you do, your foes might have the same thing or a counter for that too. As the simplest example, is every level 4+ wizard fully immune to all other level 4+ wizards? That isn't just wrong, it's ridiculous. Well this whole thing is ridiculous regardless.

[Zaq]

And protection from arrows is a silly protection anyway, because it does nothing to stop even a +1 bow.

Devil's Advocate: Protection from Arrows is useful for forcing random mooks (who would normally have worthless mundane equipment) to suddenly have +1 bows, which sell for a heck of a lot more when you reach the second part of "kill things and take their stuff." So it's not a protective spell. It's a money-generating spell.

Won't protect you from assassination, but hey, doesn't mean it's useless . . .

[Psyren]

Devil's Advocate: Protection from Arrows is useful for forcing random mooks (who would normally have worthless mundane equipment) to suddenly have +1 bows, which sell for a heck of a lot more when you reach the second part of "kill things and take their stuff." So it's not a protective spell. It's a money-generating spell.

Won't protect you from assassination, but hey, doesn't mean it's useless . . .

You're forgetting consumables - Magic Weapon oils are much, much cheaper than outright buying magic bows for everyone, and last long enough for everyone to put volleys in the air.

[Zaq]

You're forgetting consumables - Magic Weapon oils are much, much cheaper than outright buying magic bows for everyone, and last long enough for everyone to put volleys in the air.

If the enemies specifically know that the PCs are coming, sure. But consumables take time to use, and using enough to keep them up constantly (or every time the random bandits rob some schmuck, or whatever) is not cost-effective for long. And it kind of strains credibility to say that "oh, these guys had only ONE oil apiece, and they just used it to fight you." So if nothing else, you can loot their stockpile of oils.

My point is that consistently using Protection from Arrows subtly changes the metagame. It's not hard to counter, but anything that's easy to use to counter it is generally something that can be looted by PCs.

The closest argument to being something I'd buy would be +1 arrows, but even then, either they've got enough of them to be worth looting, or else they just happen to open every combat (against unknown opponents? PCs may be well-known, but again, we're talking mooks here . . . bandits, street thugs, random guards or sentries who haven't necessarily been following the PCs' exploits, etc.) with their precious and valuable (and limited) magic arrows, even before they know whether they need to. If they start with normal arrows, watch them tink away harmlessly, and then switch to the special ammo, then that bought you a round of actual protection. Either way, unless the GM is metagaming like hell, the PCs come out ahead.

. . . This is, incidentally, why I've never actually used Protection from Arrows regularly. I'm smart enough to think this through, and anyone I've been playing under when I've been in position to implement or not implement a PfA-heavy policy is also smart enough to think this through. And I don't want to put them through that. But hey, if that possibility didn't exist, then I wouldn't need to suggest it like this.

[Psyren]

I would think that, if an archer or archers are trying to assassinate a low-level wizard, Protection From Arrows is a valid enough concern that he/they would consider a 50gp oil to be worthwhile. And application time is irrelevant since generally the assassin ambushes the target anyway.

Moreover, it's not like Magic Weapon is a pointless buff even if your target doesn't have that protection up. At worst it will be overkill.

[Zaq]

Right. It won't do much against someone specifically trying to kill you. My point is not "PfA protects against assassinations." My point is that "PfA has value in general, even though DR/magic is normally not hard to bypass."

[Slipperychicken]

If the enemies specifically know that the PCs are coming, sure. But consumables take time to use, and using enough to keep them up constantly (or every time the random bandits rob some schmuck, or whatever) is not cost-effective for long. And it kind of strains credibility to say that "oh, these guys had only ONE oil apiece, and they just used it to fight you." So if nothing else, you can loot their stockpile of oils.

I imagine that's all a mook would need to keep on his person at a time, since caster-fights should be relatively uncommon. If you have multiple fights per day with PoA'd spellcasters, you really should be using special forces (who would probably have +1 weapons, PC class levels, and magic) instead of cannon-fodder mooks.

Also, each oil hits 50 pieces of ammunition and only lasts for 1 hour, so one mook's oil could reasonably supply magic ammo for ~5-9 others for a given fight.

[KoboldMasteRace]

Any 2nd-level wizards who don't have at least 14 Con should put up their hats while they're ahead and congratulate themselves for making it that far.

[Psyren]

Right. It won't do much against someone specifically trying to kill you. My point is not "PfA protects against assassinations." My point is that "PfA has value in general, even though DR/magic is normally not hard to bypass."

Of course it does - you have to spend 50 whole gp to bypass it! That's over a year's salary for a commoner! :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

Any 2nd-level wizards who don't have at least 14 Con should put up their hats while they're ahead and congratulate themselves for making it that far.

If you're in PF, a ranged character/spellcaster can scrape by with 12 because wizards get a d6 hit die, and you can put the favored class bonus into hit points to make up the difference.

[Tengu_temp]

Con is useful, but I think dex is a higher priority. Below 28 point buy, you're looking at a trade between the two, or lowering int to get both.

I disagree. I'd rather have 14 con and 8 dex than the opposite. And I'd rather have 14 con and 16 int than 8 con and 18 int.

[KoboldMasteRace]

If you're in PF, a ranged character/spellcaster can scrape by with 12 because wizards get a d6 hit die, and you can put the favored class bonus into hit points to make up the difference.

Well, there are other things a wizard vitally needs good Con for especially at low levels, but I agree with the principle idea that you can get by with a 12 in Pathfinder.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, there are other things a wizard vitally needs good Con for especially at low levels, but I agree with the principle idea that you can get by with a 12 in Pathfinder.

Absolutely :smallbiggrin: I'm playing a 12 Con wizard right now (trying to play low op utility mage next to a samurai, monk, and gunslinger), and I'm honestly torn between which I'm going to make first: boots of escape (because grappled wizard = dead meat) and an amulet of health.