D&D 3.5 Limited Optimization

[K1ngisback]

Hello, I'm a newish player, and I have never tried to optimize a character. In this instance, characters are fairly heavily limited, and the theme I have going lacks a form of attack. That seems to be a pretty hefty downside, so I was hoping to get some advice on a build that keeps with the theme, but actually deals some(even if meager) damage.

For source material:
Player's Handbook
Player's Handbook II
Dungeon Master's Guide
Complete Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Complete Scoundrel
Stromwrack
Cityscape

There are limitations beyond just the source material as well:
Characters of age 7 to 15
A 15 point buy.
Human race.
Given that some of these characters are children they can be small-sized, with 20 base speed.

Available base classes:
Rogue
Swashbuckler
Fighter
Scout

Any prestige class can be used as long as qualifications can be met.

Some homebrew material based on which race of human you are:
Italian [Venetian]: n/a
Italian [Florentine]: -1 Strength, +1 Cha.
Italian [Papal]: -1 Int, +1 Wis.
Italian [Neapolitan] and Slavs: -1 Wis +1 Str
Italian [Milanese]: -1 Con, +1 Dex
French: -1 to Cha, +1 Int.
Berber, Ottoman (Greek and Terk), and German: -1 Dex , + 1 Con

There is very little magic in the setting, Players generally won't have access to it.

That is what I have to work with on the character. In general, everyone in the group is aiming to be a thief. Whether that's accomplished through being a brute who mugs people, or a suave gentleman who charms people out of their money is up to us.

The character I had in mind was an acrobatic roof runner. Aside from that, I was having trouble deciding between thrown weapons and grappling. I'd prefer to be a grappler, as dropping down from a rooftop and tackling a guy seemed infinitely satisfying, but I've never played much of a grappler before, so I have no idea how to go about that. As far as throwing, it just seemed fun. It also sparked the idea of being a combat trapsmith, and throwing alchemic flasks at lower levels.

Anyways, the core part of this character is leaping from rooftop to rooftop, and dropping down with relative ease, so in generall, maximizing Jump, Tumble, Climb, Balance and possibly Escape Artist. I'm not too worried about hiding, but move silently could be useful. Open Lock is also a useful skill, as I probably won't be stealing much without it.

Any help in a build would be much appreciated. It doesn't really have to be past level 10, but more would be phenomenal. Thanks in advance for any tips that get tossed my way.

[Juntao112]

You can always be a Strength based Rogue/Fighter

[hemming]

Well, my first thoughts on how to make very specifically a roof based thrown weapon, somewhat grapple capable character using those classes:

Class/Feats
1 Fighter - Dodge, mobility, pt blank shot
2 Fighter - quick draw
3 Scout - roofwalker (cityscape)
4 Scout
5 Scout
6 Rogue - roofjumper
7 Rogue
8 Rogue
9 Rogue - swift ambusher (complete scoundrel)

You could also trade out the rogue levels and go for the Master Thrower PrC with a scout base - but this will mean getting the roof specific feats later on

This isn't a high-op build but I think it would fit in your campaign and give you the character you want to play

You are going to want to spend some time looking at skill tricks in complete scoundrel to maximize your wall climbing/jumping potential

Looking at the races, I would go with Slav or French

[Brookshw]

Assassins creed based? Roof running acrobat sounds like a fun concept and based on that it sounds like rogue scout. Grappling would put you at a disadvantage as you want to be small. Running and jumping off roofs unseen for sneak attack + skirmish damage would be decent. Alternatively just skirmishing with ranged weapons from the roof is a decent tactic and would let you concentrate the limited stat points better.

[roko10]

Off-topic, but why in the nine hells does the French get a penalty to Charisma?

[Inevitability]

Mustaches.

[hemming]

Off-topic, but why in the nine hells does the French get a penalty to Charisma?

As a slav myself with a -1 WIS, I can't figure it out

[K1ngisback]

You can always be a Strength based Rogue/Fighter

I'm assuming a Strength based Rogue/Fighter would grapple? Though there is the feat that allows you to use strength on thrown weapons.


Off-topic, but why in the nine hells does the French get a penalty to Charisma?

To quote the dm directly, "The French are such pompous asses that their feigned superiority actually makes them smarter, but everyone hates them."

I do not share this point of view, I mean no offence to anyone.

That's similar to what I was looking at Hemming as far as a thrower primary. At some point, I had considered forgoing rogue completely for more skirmish, and master thrower was the intended prestige class.

The other potential prestige classes I was thinking were thief-acrobat and uncanny trickster.

As far as grappling goes, I did get permission to use a feat from Sandstorm called Scorpion's Grasp. I was thinking something along the lines of Fighter/Scout, dropping off of buildings and hitting them for Skirmish, then entering a grapple. Some Luchador shenanigans.

[Particle_Man]

a) From a damage optimization POV, rogue 1/swashbuckler 2/rogue 2 more/swashbuckler forevermore with that one feat from complete scoundrel that lets you keep going with swashbuckler and count those levels for rogue sneak attack damage is pretty viable. You end up with BAB 19 and full sneak attack damage of 10d6 at level 20. Not too shabby.

b) -1 and +1 ability score modifications are . . . odd (pardon the pun). Are you sure they are not -2 and +2? Because otherwise, pick whatever mods gives you a significant bonus (by going up from an odd number to an even number) and no significant penalty (by going down from an odd number down to an even number).

c) 15 point buy! Ouch! Well wisdom and charisma are dump stats. Maybe strength too. So, what Dex 14, str 11 (if you use encumbrance rules), con 10, int 12 (for those roof-jumping skills like jump, balance, tumble, climb, possibly rope use, as well as some spot, listen, search, hide, move silently, etc.), wis 8, cha 8?

[Devils_Advocate]

To quote the dm directly, "The French are such pompous asses that their feigned superiority actually makes them smarter, but everyone hates them."
So elves are French. Of course, it all makes sense now.

[BrokenChord]

So elves are French. Of course, it all makes sense now.

I feel bad for saying this, but aside from the implied facial hair, going off stereotypes this is crazy true :smalleek:

No Monk? :smallconfused: Makes as much sense as any of the other classes. If so I could totally recommend dipping into Monk for Wis to AC and other benefits, having your character focused fully on Str and Wis, with the Complete Warrior feats Zen Archery and Ranged Pin. Get good at combat at all distances to some degree, get faster movement as is very much needed for a little kid thief...

But, if it isn't allowed, it isn't allowed. As it is, I'd spend five points getting Int to 13 and the other 10 getting Dex to 16 for the +3 and going Fighter 1 at first, with your three feats being Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Level 2, use the next Fighter bonus feat to grab Combat Reflexes. Switch to Scout at level 3, use level 3 feat for Weapon Finesse on the Spiked Chain. Take the rest of your levels in Scout for class features and skills. This will make you great at keeping people from getting in the way while the other kids pull of a robbery, and you can start being useful for other things too once your class features start to come around.

[K1ngisback]

I received permission to use the Thug Fighter Variant, and the Sneak Attack Fighter variants from unearthed arcana. I'd get some more skill points with the fighter levels, and the loss of armor proficiency doesn't hurt. Losing a bonus feet hurts, but I can avoid rogue altogether if I go swashbuckler and use the combined leveling feat, and I also get a full BAB.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd make a Daring Outlaw. The build would look something like this:

Human [French]
1. Rogue, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
2. Swashbuckler
3. Rogue, Telling Blow
4. Rogue
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler, Daring Outlaw
7+: Swashbuckler

Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14 (13+1)
Wis: 8
Cha: 7 (8-1)

Get some Keen kukris and you're ready to go.

[hemming]

That's similar to what I was looking at Hemming as far as a thrower primary. At some point, I had considered forgoing rogue completely for more skirmish, and master thrower was the intended prestige class.
.

The swift ambusher feat lets you stack scout with rogue for the purposes of skirmish damage and AC bonus

If your DM will allow it to stack with sneak attack fighter - you could do some thing like : 3 levels of scout/x sneak attack fighter w/ swift ambusher as the feat at 6th level

IMO - this is the best for getting the most out of surprise round (if you trigger both sneak attack and skirmish) and getting the most damage for ranged attacks (bc skirmish can be triggered almost every turn)

The daring outlaw feat build might be better for an all around character or a character frequently in melee - a good option if you decide to go that route

The Master Thrower PrC isn't very good for helping your character become more powerful (lose out on advancing sneak attack and/or skirmish)- but it is great for adding flavor/options if that is what you are after