How well does a Dex-based Warblade work in E6?

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm building this Warblade for this particular setting...

So we're doing an evil E6 campaign set in a nice low-magic Arthurian setting - naturally with Arthur and his Knights as the long-term antagonists for the party.

Now. I had asked the DM of this one if Tome of Battle was allowed, because I really wanted to try out a Warblade, and he wavered on it a bit. He was worried it would outpace the other martial classes. Eventually, however, he agreed... on a condition.

He had an idea going in his head wherein I would be a mole, a Lawful Good antagonist concealed within the party, who would turn on them when the moment was right and do something to mess with them, and then come back as an occasional enemy.

I, of course, thought this idea was just great, and being allowed to play a ToB class was just a fringe benefit of this.

...and now I'm sitting here building a human Warblade and I really dislike being dependent on my STR and DEX with the 28 point buy we have, especially since I'd like to do a little bit of roleplaying here and there and I'd appreciate being very intelligent while not totally dumping WIS and CHA. So. I was wondering how well a 10/12/16/16/10/8 Warblade based around Weapon Finesse would work.

Ideally I'd use a spiked chain because spiked chains destroy things and it's quite easily the best choice for a finessed frontline combatant, but it doesn't feel like it fits the setting. Swords, polearms, et cetera? Yes. Chains? I dunno. I don't know what other weapon I'd turn to so that I wasn't gimping myself, though.

Any pointers?

Edit: Read the wrong stats. 10/16/14/14/10/10. And this is an E6 campaign (I should have left this outside the spoilers).

[Andezzar]

If you want to use weapon finesse and a reach weapon, you are pretty much stuck with the spiked chain.
Otherwise just use a polearm (possibly one that can trip) and a spiked gauntlet/spiked armor/Improved Unarmed Strike.

If you want to rely on high DEX maybe TWF and Tiger Claw maneuvers are your style.

[Darrin]

If you want to use weapon finesse and a reach weapon, you are pretty much stuck with the spiked chain.

Not quite. Elven Courtblade (Races of the Wild) is a two-handed finessable weapon. That would be my advice, take that as an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. (If you run across a better exotic weapon, you can switch EWP to something else with an hour of practice).

I'm... not sure what to do with it after that, as you don't have the Str for Power Attack, and don't have the Dex for TWF. There are some Tiger Claw maneuvers that involve offhand attacks, and it's easy enough to use armor spikes for that. And I'm not sure what I'd do with those stats. Maybe swap the 16 Int for 12 Dex or the 10 Str, but I'm not sure that fits your concept. (The Int-based Warblade abilities are kinda meh, you'll get more mileage out of a higher Str or Dex.)

But if you really want to *use* Weapon Finesse, maybe try:

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8
Feats:
1) EWP Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse
3) TWF
5) Combat Reflexes
6) Improved TWF
9) Double Hit, Improved Initiative
12) Robilar's Gambit
13) Blind-Fight
15) Two-Weapon Rend
17) Blade Meditation
18) Greater TWF

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, it looks like I typo'd the OP stats. I was looking at the wrong sheet. I meant 10/16/14/14/10/10.

And reach isn't hugely important, I'd just like to be able to use something better than a freaking rapier that'll still fit the setting... which is why I didn't go for an elven courtblade immediately, because that might be much harder to come by unless I can get the DM to let me take something like that.

[AnonymousPepper]

Not quite. Elven Courtblade (Races of the Wild) is a two-handed finessable weapon. That would be my advice, take that as an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. (If you run across a better exotic weapon, you can switch EWP to something else with an hour of practice).

I'm... not sure what to do with it after that, as you don't have the Str for Power Attack, and don't have the Dex for TWF. There are some Tiger Claw maneuvers that involve offhand attacks, and it's easy enough to use armor spikes for that. And I'm not sure what I'd do with those stats. Maybe swap the 16 Int for 12 Dex or the 10 Str, but I'm not sure that fits your concept. (The Int-based Warblade abilities are kinda meh, you'll get more mileage out of a higher Str or Dex.)

But if you really want to *use* Weapon Finesse, maybe try:

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8
Feats:
1) EWP Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse
3) TWF
5) Combat Reflexes
6) Improved TWF
9) Double Hit, Improved Initiative
12) Robilar's Gambit
13) Blind-Fight
15) Two-Weapon Rend
17) Blade Meditation
18) Greater TWF

Here's the catch - and my bad for not leaving it outside of the spoilers: it's an E6 campaign.

[Andezzar]

Not quite. Elven Courtblade (Races of the Wild) is a two-handed finessable weapon.The Elven courtblade does not have reach. It is basically a greatsword with better crit range.


I'm... not sure what to do with it after that, as you don't have the Str for Power Attack, and don't have the Dex for TWF. There are some Tiger Claw maneuvers that involve offhand attacks, and it's easy enough to use armor spikes for that. And I'm not sure what I'd do with those stats. Maybe swap the 16 Int for 12 Dex or the 10 Str, but I'm not sure that fits your concept. (The Int-based Warblade abilities are kinda meh, you'll get more mileage out of a higher Str or Dex.)I thought the OP was going for STR 10, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 8. Using the 12 for DEX does not sound like a good idea.
With 28 point buy, I would go with: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 8 and take Moment of the perfect mind ASAP to avoid WIL saves.
This allows you to take power attack (and leap attack, shock trooper), combat reflexes, combat expertise, Improved trip, TWF.

As for E6, AFAIK you can get more feats than normal for a sixth level character, you just can't get more levels. Unless there is a feat in the list that requires BAB > 6 you could still get there eventually.

Especially in an E6 game a barbarian dip for the Spiritual Lion ACF might be a good idea, since you can't get the warblade capstone anyways.

[Drachasor]

I think with E6 and a Dex-based Warblade, a Spiked Chain is the way to go if you want a two-handed weapon. Mechanically it is one of the few exotics worth a feat.

The other option is to use a one-handed weapon. That's not really that bad a choice with a Warblade. You can do quite well with a sword and shield even. So I think your other main option is probably a Rapier or the like and a shield. The extra AC will probably come in handy if you have to eventually fight other party members.

[Darrin]

I'd just like to be able to use something better than a freaking rapier that'll still fit the setting... which is why I didn't go for an elven courtblade immediately, because that might be much harder to come by unless I can get the DM to let me take something like that.

The Sidhe/Seelie (Tolkien-style elves) are setting-appropriate for an Arthurian theme. Give him an elven/fey patron (secret order of Grey Guards/Eternal Blades), maybe add a cover story about stealing it or taking it off the body of a Dark Seelie knight.

E6 still works. I like Andezzar's suggestions (except Barbarian 1 probably won't work with a LG Warblade).

[Andezzar]

The other option is to use a one-handed weapon. That's not really that bad a choice with a Warblade. You can do quite well with a sword and shield even. So I think your other main option is probably a Rapier or the like and a shield. The extra AC will probably come in handy if you have to eventually fight other party members.I don't know, I think Pounce, Heedless Charge and Wall of Blades might be the better way to survive the fight. Who is dead cannot hit you, regardless of AC.
If you get the Whirling Frenzy ACF and are hasted, the target is looking at 4 attacks (unless the DM rules that whirling Frenzy is sufficiently similar to Haste to not stack) at +1 AB and at least 12 damage to each attack from Power Attack alone. Add the leading the charge stance, that is another 5 damage per attack.

Argh, I overlooked the LG requirement. Forget what I wrote. Why must the character be lawful good, to be the traitor?

[AnonymousPepper]

I don't know, I think Pounce, Heedless Charge and Wall of Blades might be the better way to survive the fight. Who is dead cannot hit you, regardless of AC.
If you get the Whirling Frenzy ACF and are hasted, the target is looking at 4 attacks (unless the DM rules that whirling Frenzy is sufficiently similar to Haste to not stack) at +1 AB and at least 12 damage to each attack from Power Attack alone. Add the leading the charge stance, that is another 5 damage per attack.

Argh, I overlooked the LG requirement. Forget what I wrote. Why must the character be lawful good, to be the traitor?

Because I felt like it? Honestly, just felt right to me.

I'm not building this to be optimized, I'm just building it to not be complete crap.

[Ziegander]

There are always Feycraft weapons if you want more finessable options.

The Lawful part of your alignment doesn't seem to jive well with the mole part of your character. Palling around with evil characters and making deception and subterfuge a central part of your concept, unless you're trying a "I must do a little chaos for a little while for the Greater Law," sort of thing.

[Andezzar]

Because I felt like it? Honestly, just felt right to me.Fair enough


I'm not building this to be optimized, I'm just building it to not be complete crap.If you are playing the traitor, think about an exit strategy. Martial characters are not very good at them, besides "kill'em all, walk into the sunset"


There are always Feycraft weapons if you want more finessable options.It's not that good though:
The feycraft template can be added only to light or one-handed melee weapons, and to ranged weapons. It cannot be added to two-handed weapons because most fey prefer to leave an appendage free for spellcasting or the
manipulation of an instrument.So no 2:1 exchange from Power Attack.

Also feycraft weapons are probably less available than spiked chains or elven courtblades, not to mention more expensive.

[Snowbluff]

Might I humbly suggest the Rapier? No EWP needed, and it can get 2:1 PA.

[AnonymousPepper]

The concept ended up getting revised in some respects, but here's what the DM and I came up with:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=815155

[Darrin]

The concept ended up getting revised in some respects, but here's what the DM and I came up with:


Looks good, although I would have preferred some different maneuvers/stances. I prefer Steel Wind over Stone Bones, and I'd take Punishing Stance or Leading the Charge over Bolstering Voice.

However, I think you mentioned your DM was concerned you'd be overpowering the other PCs. So focusing on White Raven is a good strategy: buff your party members and help them work together as a team.

Chaotic Neutral sounds like a bit of a cop-out, or is that a placeholder until you switch sides?

[AnonymousPepper]

Looks good, although I would have preferred some different maneuvers/stances. I prefer Steel Wind over Stone Bones, and I'd take Punishing Stance or Leading the Charge over Bolstering Voice.

However, I think you mentioned your DM was concerned you'd be overpowering the other PCs. So focusing on White Raven is a good strategy: buff your party members and help them work together as a team.

Chaotic Neutral sounds like a bit of a cop-out, or is that a placeholder until you switch sides?

Placeholder of sorts.

I'm going to gradually slide towards CG as the party does more and more... bad stuff.

Justify your position on these maneuvers, though. I'm new to ToB, and the normal guides probably don't apply as much to E6.

[Andezzar]

Steel Wind: Move and attack two targets.
Stone Bones: Attack and gain DR 5/adamantine for only one round. Additionally as with all stone dragon maneuvers it has the problem that it can only be initiated with contact to solid ground.

Punishing stance: +1d6 damage, -2 AC all the time
Leading the Charge: + IL to damage on the charge for your allies within 30 ft. Note that unless stated otherwise, allies include yourself.
Bolstering Voice: allies gain +2 on WIL saves +4 on WIL saves vs fear effects.

I'm not sure how well Leading the Charge scales in an E6 game, because the IL maxes out at 6, but it is a nice bonus. Since it gives a flat numeric bonus it is multiplied on a critical hit and other multipliers (valorous weapon etc.)

BTW, when using the point-buy method for stat generation you cannot go below 8.

[AnonymousPepper]

Steel Wind: Move and attack two targets.
Stone Bones: Attack and gain DR 5/adamantine for only one round. Additionally as with all stone dragon maneuvers it has the problem that it can only be initiated with contact to solid ground.

Punishing stance: +1d6 damage, -2 AC all the time
Leading the Charge: + IL to damage on the charge for your allies within 30 ft. Note that unless stated otherwise, allies include yourself.
Bolstering Voice: allies gain +2 on WIL saves +4 on WIL saves vs fear effects.

I'm not sure how well Leading the Charge scales in an E6 game, because the IL maxes out at 6, but it is a nice bonus. Since it gives a flat numeric bonus it is multiplied on a critical hit and other multipliers (valorous weapon etc.)

BTW, when using the point-buy method for stat generation you cannot go below 8.

...I don't know how I didn't notice Steel Wind.

But Punishing Stance hurts my AC too much in my opinion and Leading the Charge's +1 damage on charges just doesn't really seem that big of a deal to me.

Also I... kinda had to okay that one with the DM. I'm locked into buffing it at level 4.

[Darrin]

Justify your position on these maneuvers, though. I'm new to ToB, and the normal guides probably don't apply as much to E6.

Punishing Stance = kill things quicker, which tends to be the best strategy in D&D. You have infinitely high AC against creatures that are dead. An extra 3.5 damage on all your attacks is useful all the way up to Warblade 20, moreso in E6.

Leading the Charge is great for Pouncebarian/Ubercharger stuff. I also like that the damage modifier is multiplied on a crit, although not everyone interprets "bonus damage" that way.

Stone Bones is... boring, I guess. And defensive. And it does nothing if you miss the attack roll.

Steel Wind lets you move and attack two opponents, sort of a mini-pounce, which may not be useful when you get more iterative attacks, but in E6 should always be handy. Much better with a reach weapon, but useless against a single opponent or if your enemies don't have the common decency to stand close together.

Wolf Fang Strike is another move + attack twice maneuver, and you need to take it first if you want anything else in Tiger Claw. If you need a second weapon to go with the courtblade, scrape up 50 GP for armor spikes. Generally you take this maneuver to get Sudden Leap, which gives you bonus movement with a Jump check as a swift action. Great for setting up charges, setting up flanking, etc.

Charging Minotaur... can be used to start off an encounter or move an opponent out of position. I like that the bull rush does damage, so it's not wasting what could be an attack, but you'll rarely need this more than once an encounter. For E6, I'd rather have a strike I can use over and over again.

Leading the Attack: great maneuver for concentrating the hurt on a single target. I also like that the +4 applies to ranged attacks as well, so the REMFs can get in on it. But if the rest of the party does something else or attacks a different target, then it might get wasted.

Douse the Flames: hard to tell when this will be useful. Most enemies only get one AoO. Can be good to set up flanking.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade: better for sneak attackers, and in E6 it will be a lot harder to optimize your Concentration up high enough to always beat an opponent's AC. Skip it.

Steely Strike: similar to Shock Trooper, trading better accuracy for worse AC. If you Power Attack for 4, then it's almost exactly like Shock Trooper, except against your target you still have your usual AC. But your build doesn't really use Power Attack, at least not yet. But I think I'd still take the extra attack (Steel Wind) over the +4 attack bonus.