little help .

[Jgosse]

Hey guys so I have been super busy this week well as fighting a nasty cold and have not had time to prepare for my Game today. I need a wareporpoise Sailor in 7 hours and I am on my way to work. I will try and build it from memorry but can you guys let me know if I forget anything?

also sorry for poor spelling my phone is a **** and I am Disgraphic.

I am planing on only using them in hybrid form for today so that's all I need atm.

1expert 1 fighter.
12 str
16dex
12con
12int
10cha

na+4
dr 5 silver
base saves 2/0/2

lycan bonus feat wepon fineze.
starting feat wepon focus
human feat imp natural atk
fighter bonus feat wepon focus claw

leather armor.


Am I forgetting anything, make any mistakes, or can you suggest any improvements?

[Invader]

You need a wisdom score of which you'll get a bonus +2 to for being a lycanthrope.

[Invader]

And if you're a were-creature you don't start with a bonus human feat because you're not human unless you're were afflicted but that's a bit of munchkinery at best.

[Invader]

What level are you starting at because right now at the very least you're 6th (2 racial hit die, 2-3 LA for lycanthrope, and 1 for fighter, 1 for expert).

I'll assume you were inflicted since you only have DR 5 instead of 10.

[Invader]

If expert is your base class your base saves should be 3/3/2 if it's fighter they should be 5/3/0 and that's before ability and racial modifiers.

[Jgosse]

I should of said I am the Dm. this is a challenge for my party ..

[Invader]

Kk everything ekse still stands though.

[Jgosse]

the wisdom was a typo Ty for pointing it out. they will be inflicted so human feat still stands. as for base saves why would it change depending on which was my first class . I am still a level 1 expert +2 wisdom level 1 fighter +2 fort.

[Invader]

the wisdom was a typo Ty for pointing it out. they will be inflicted so human feat still stands. as for base saves ld it change depending on which was my first class . I am still a level 1 expert +2 wisdom level 1 fighter +2 fort.

You can't take improved natural attack as your human bonus feat. Your base attack isn't high enough and you don't have a natural attack.

The saves wouldn't that was my mistake but you also add the base animals base saves to your saves so you'd add a +3/+3/+0 to your class levels if my math is correct.

[Urpriest]

You can't take improved natural attack as your human bonus feat. Your base attack isn't high enough and you don't have a natural attack.

The saves wouldn't that was my mistake but you also add the base animals base saves to your saves so you'd add a +3/+3/+0 to your class levels if my math is correct.

Yeah, base saves are +5/+5/+0 for this character.

Hybrid form has natural attacks, but yes, the character doesn't have high enough BAB for that feat.


And if you're a were-creature you don't start with a bonus human feat be sure you're not human unless you're were afflicted but that's a bit of munchkinery at best.

That's false. You keep your normal racial traits.

[Jgosse]

ok so any suggestions for another feat?

[Invader]

Yeah, base saves are +5/+5/+0 for this character.

Hybrid form has natural attacks, but yes, the character doesn't have high enough BAB for that feat.



That's false. You keep your normal racial traits.

If you were born a were creature you were never human so you wouldn't have the human racial feat.

I meant it was munchkinery trying to take a feat he'd only qualify for after he became a lycanthrope before he actually became one.

[Urpriest]

ok so any suggestions for another feat?

He's a Sailor, not a combatant, right? So something like Skill Focus Profession(Sailor) makes sense.


If you were born a were creature you were never human so you wouldn't have the human racial feat.


You're a human with a template. The whole way templates work is adding traits to the base race while keeping most of the original traits. That's literally the whole point of templates.

[Invader]

Fair enough, I see the base creature keeps it's type while I thought it changed it just gets the subtype.

For some reason fluff wise it still bugs me though lol :smallwink:

[Urpriest]

Fair enough, I see the base creature keeps it's type while I thought it changed it just gets the subtype.

Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you mean here.

Edit: Are you trying to say that you thought that the Lycanthrope template changed the base creature's type? What would that possibly have to do with whether or not it kept its racial features?



For some reason fluff wise it still bugs me though lol :smallwink:

It shouldn't. A Human Wereporpoise and an Elf Wereporpoise are totally different creatures with totally different histories, shouldn't they have different abilities?

[Invader]

I thought when you became a lycanthrope your type changed from the base creature but I see you just gain the shapechanger subtype.


How I look at it is if you're born as a were creature (not simply afflicted) you're not really a human any more (logically), you're a lycanthrope.

[Urpriest]

I thought when you became a lycanthrope your type changed from the base creature but I see you just gain the shapechanger subtype.


How I look at it is if you're born as a were creature (not simply afflicted) you're not really a human any more (logically), you're a lycanthrope.

First of all, type change would have nothing to do with any of this. A Lich is an undead, not a humanoid, that doesn't mean a Human Lich suddenly loses their bonus feat.

Second, you're specifically a human lycanthrope, rather than an elf lycanthrope, or a hill giant lycanthrope. How else would you tell the difference between them, besides by their racial traits?

Again, this is literally all that templates are for. The whole point of something being a template is that it keeps most of the traits of the base race.

[Divide by Zero]

I thought when you became a lycanthrope your type changed from the base creature but I see you just gain the shapechanger subtype.


How I look at it is if you're born as a were creature (not simply afflicted) you're not really a human any more (logically), you're a lycanthrope.

It doesn't matter. Unless otherwise specified, adding a template doesn't remove any of your base race's features. They have nothing to do with your creature type, they have to do with what you chose for your base race. So if you're a human lycanthrope, you have all the features of a human and a lycanthrope. If you're an elf lycanthrope, you have all the features of an elf and a lycanthrope. If you're a vampire half-fey half-dragon half-celestial feral dwarf, you have the features of all those templates, but you're still a dwarf and you still have all the features of a dwarf unless they're specifically nullified.

[Invader]

Right I get it so you don't have to keep parroting the same thing over and over again.


If it doesn't make sense to you that if you're born as a lycanthrope you're not really a human anymore than I don't how better to convey the idea.

Think of it as acting the same way as becoming a dragonborn.

And lich is different, you're not born a lich.

[Divide by Zero]

Right I get it so you don't have to keep parroting the same thing over and over again.


If it doesn't make sense to you that if you're born as a lycanthrope you're not really a human anymore than I don't how better to convey the idea.

Think of it as acting the same way as becoming a dragonborn.

And lich is different, you're not born a lich.

Dragonborn specifically says you lose your racial features. It doesn't matter what you think makes sense, the rules say you keep all your racial features if you add a template, so unless you're the OP's DM, your opinion on how it should work doesn't belong in this thread.

And you still haven't explained why you think lycanthropes of different base races should have no mechanical distinction.

[Invader]

Dragonborn specifically says you lose your racial features. It doesn't matter what you think makes sense, the rules say you keep all your racial features if you add a template, so unless you're the OP's DM, your opinion on how it should work doesn't belong in this thread.

And you still haven't explained why you think lycanthropes of different base races should have no mechanical distinction.

I acknowledged that mechanically I was mistaken and said it bothered me from purely a fluff standpoint and I'm not arguing otherwise and quite frankly its not your place to tell me where my opinion does or does not belong. I was simply having a discussion so you can check the attitude.


I did twice. If you're born as a lycanthrope you're not a human or an elf anymore, you're a lycanthrope. Why does it make sense to work that way for a dragonborn but not a lycanthrope.

[Red Rubber Band]

I did twice. If you're born as a lycanthrope you're not a human or an elf anymore, you're a lycanthrope. Why does it make sense to work that way for a dragonborn but not a lycanthrope.

So what's your non-wolf form? Or, if werewolves don't work the same way as pop culture, what does your form look like as a lycanthrope?

Why can you not be both a human and a lycanthrope? Ignoring mechanics, this doesn't make sense as to how I see were-things/lycanthropes.
Purely fluff wise lycanthropes are not a race in and of themselves are they?

[Devils_Advocate]

Invader, it makes sense for natural lycanthropes to retain most of the base creature's racial traits because that is how inherited as well as acquired templates normally work. In the context of the d20 System as a whole, it's if anything dragonborn that don't make sense.

Furthermore, "Lycanthropes are humanoids or giants who can transform themselves into animals". That's the first sentence. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) There are other creatures that instead mimic the forms of humanoids and animals -- barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm), for example -- but these are, by definition, not lycanthropes.

Your question is like asking "Why do sorcerers cast spells spontaneously when wizards don't?"

And how would it make more sense for werecreatures to impose on others a condition superficially similar to but functionally quite different from their own? Using the Monster Manual rules, afflicted and natural lycanthropes seem similar to each other because they are similar. But the way you'd have it, natural lycanthropes would be a type of shapeshifter that, by biting you... turn you into a way different type of shapeshifter, but one that looks the same as the type that bit you? Huh? Why?

If there's part of the rules for lycanthropy that doesn't make sense, it's having afflicted lycanthropes unable to pass on the curse, so it can't spread in the obvious way. And having players regain control of afflicted characters, rather than permanently losing control. And having Good-aligned werecreatures. And getting the sum of the racial stats of the two different creatures you're based on, instead of switching from one's stats to another. And...

Well, okay, there's plenty that doesn't make sense, but natural lycanthropes being natural lycanthropes instead of something else that's fundamentally different from natural lycanthropes does make sense.

[Jgosse]

thanks every one.