PDA

View Full Version : Psionic Powers...



jlousivy
2007-01-31, 11:30 PM
So in my game my DM might allow my character to be subject of some strange insanity spell (my idea....)
basicly it'll distort his body and mind
(i'll be able to re-arrange my stats)
and basicly turn my lvl 11 wizard into a lvl 11 psion.
(reason i want this: spells are far too hard to come by and no 2 spells/level, but that isn't to be debated here)
so basicly..... i want to know what powers i should get!

Psionic Dicipline: KINETICIST (or telepath... but kineticist fits the campaign and player better)
i want to be a blaster but with some awesome 'powers' like slow and such
so... i can have
power lvl - quantity

1-5
2-4
3-4
4-4
5-4
6-2

i want to have some damage potential as well so energy ball and energy ray and energy cone and energy bolt (energy burst? i dunno bout this one).
on the same note, i have no idea what feats to get.
all i do know i want is : psionic meditation, and improved initiative.
(i do not need any item creation feats, our group rarely rests for more than 2 days so i can't spend time to do it)
note: No polymorph cheese, my DM pretty much limited my wizard to mundane animals and wyrmling good dragons for polymorphing

Many thanks in advance :-)

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 12:20 AM
So, in effect, you're creating an eleventh-level psion from scratch?

jlousivy
2007-02-01, 12:27 AM
Yes. Int = base 16 (increased to 18 with stat boosts) wis base 14.
I think he'll be semi-evil so Matter Agitation might be something?

And since i can wear armour with no penalty.. i think one feat should be light armour proficiency... but i might be over looking something... comments?

oriong
2007-02-01, 12:49 AM
Well, a lot depends on just how you are going to go with him. Egoist? Kineticist? Other?

For damage, the psychokinetic energy missile is probably the best, although if you're using complete psion it's been toned down. You should have at least one 'crystal' power to pierce Power Resistance with impunity. Crystal Shard is always a good one and it's low level. Concussion might be worthwhile for it's ability to pierce Energy Resistance, DR and affect incorporeal targets. Those 3 together make a pretty nifty damage team and allow you to work on more general and utility powers. I don't recomend matter agitation, while it's very 'neat' it's not terribly effective, there aren't very many situations where it is conceviably more useful than energy ray.

Some powers are obvious: Dimension Door is always useful, Concealing Amorphae is a great low level defense, Psionic Grease is a very good control power.

Some of the special powers are also excellent and should be taken if you're of that speciality or using the Extra Power feat: Teleport, Fly, Astral Construct, Greater Concealing Amorphae, Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Psionic Dominate.

As far as feats Extra Power is excellent, especially since it allows you access to powers from other disciplines.

jlousivy
2007-02-01, 01:18 AM
all i have ( and all i can use ) is what's on the SRD..
i'm thinking Kineticist just because it seems to be the blaster...

But i can also see him being a Telepath.. more of a controling other people to hurt/kill their friends and such, at the same time he needs to be able to affect mind-effecting spell immune targets

oriong
2007-02-01, 02:05 AM
Well, then you definitely should take energy missile, all by itself it makes you a blaster more powerful than many wizards and sorcerers. Get Energy Current as well and there's not much that can match your raw damage potential (not that damage is everything, but it is quite nice).

Then, make sure to pick up Crystal Shard (to pierce SR and PR), and probably concussion blast for good measure (to handle incorporeal creatures or those with energy resistance)

Those 4 powers represent all the 'blasting' you're ever likely to need.

Psionic disentigrate makes another good addition but temporal accelleration might be a very tempting alternative.

Control body is an excellent way to take over your opponent, but unfortunately it doesn't have any way for DC to scale, so it's use is limited (and it's a fortitude save, which means the best targets to use it on will be the ones with the greatest chance to resist).

Things you should consider getting with Extra Power:
Greater Concealing Amorphae
Astral Construct
Teleport
Dominate

In addition you definitely want Dimension Door and probably psionic overland flight. Wall of ectoplasm is also good, and you should get at least one general TK power (like far hand or telekinetic force) just for the generic utility both of those represent.


As far as Feats go, Overchannel is useful for a blaster with plenty of healing items since it'll significantly improve your maximum damage. Empower Power will also increase your overall killing ability.

enderrocksonall
2007-02-01, 05:49 AM
Something you should be aware of about psions is that you can only learn powers that are specific to your speciality. That means that every power you have to look at what "school" they are from, and if you aren't an egoist you cant normally learn powers like body adjustment or burst.

Sure you can take the expanded knowledge feat, but you burn good feats on learning a single power. And kineticist is one of the most limited specialties. You dont even get disintigrate as a kineticist.

Honestly i think you'd be better off going telepath or a nomad and taking expanded knowledge for the few "blasting" powers that you would need. Most of them are simply a different form(i.e. a cone instead of a ray) of the same power.

Khantalas
2007-02-01, 06:05 AM
Something you should be aware of about psions is that you can only learn powers that are specific to your speciality. That means that every power you have to look at what "school" they are from, and if you aren't an egoist you cant normally learn powers like body adjustment or burst.

You are... wrong?

You can learn any power on the psion / wilder powers list, regardless of your discipline. However, if you're a psion, you can't pick powers from other disciplines' powers list.

For example, if you're kineticist, you can get psionic greater teleport (a psychoportation power on the general list) but not psionic teleport (a psychoportation power on Nomad list, not the general list).

I think.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-01, 06:09 AM
That is correct.

Starbuck_II
2007-02-01, 06:10 AM
You are... wrong?

You can learn any power on the psion / wilder powers list, regardless of your discipline. However, if you're a psion, you can't pick powers from other disciplines' powers list.

For example, if you're kineticist, you can get psionic greater teleport (a psychoportation power on the general list) but not psionic teleport (a psychoportation power on Nomad list, not the general list).

I think.
Correct there are two types of disciplies (as confusing as that sounds).
School discipline and Special devotion discipline.
Psion/Wilder lidt includes all schools and every Psion can get them.
Ehoist is a special devotion discipline only Egist can pick it up as they level (barring feats and research if DM allows since research is with DM approval).

enderrocksonall
2007-02-01, 07:56 AM
You are... wrong?

You can learn any power on the psion / wilder powers list, regardless of your discipline. However, if you're a psion, you can't pick powers from other disciplines' powers list.

For example, if you're kineticist, you can get psionic greater teleport (a psychoportation power on the general list) but not psionic teleport (a psychoportation power on Nomad list, not the general list).

I think.

The XPH says, "Choose the powers known from the psion power list or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from disciplines other than your chosen discipline.(Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge, page 46, and Epic Expanded Knowledge, page 34, do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.)"

No where in there does it say that the limit on choosing powers applies only to the Psion Discipline Powers. If my interpretation is wrong, there is no point to listing off the discipline used in the description of each power.

If what you are saying is true then the only powers that it would matter what discipline they were from, are the ones that are already grouped into their disciplines.

I may be going against the grain here, but since the literal meaning of the restrictions on learning powers says that you can't learn ANY power that isn't your discipline, that is how I would run my campaign. Otherwise I see little point to forcing psions to pick a discipline. They would just be clerics with one domain instead of 2.

NullAshton
2007-02-01, 08:24 AM
Expanded knowledge lets you choose any power, though. Even lets Psychic Warriors choose normally Psion/Wilder only powers, like Metamorphosis...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 08:27 AM
The XPH says, "Choose the powers known from the psion power list or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from disciplines other than your chosen discipline.(Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge, page 46, and Epic Expanded Knowledge, page 34, do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.)"

No where in there does it say that the limit on choosing powers applies only to the Psion Discipline Powers. If my interpretation is wrong, there is no point to listing off the discipline used in the description of each power.

If what you are saying is true then the only powers that it would matter what discipline they were from, are the ones that are already grouped into their disciplines.

I may be going against the grain here, but since the literal meaning of the restrictions on learning powers says that you can't learn ANY power that isn't your discipline, that is how I would run my campaign. Otherwise I see little point to forcing psions to pick a discipline. They would just be clerics with one domain instead of 2.

You are way, way wrong. "Discipline" here refers to what kind of a psion you are. A Kineticist can learn Kineticist powers, AND any powers on the general "Psion/Wilder" list. He can't learn powers from the Nomad list, the Egoist list, et cetera. It is basically like a domain, except the choice affects your spell list more because it's not 1 spell/day, it's powers you can know. Each discipline has some good powers; you can't afford the Expanded Knowledge feats to snag'em all.

Drascin
2007-02-01, 08:36 AM
Powers Known

A psion begins play knowing three psion powers of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of new powers.
Choose the powers known from the psion power list, or from the list of powers of your chosen discipline. You cannot choose powers from restricted discipline lists other than your own discipline list. You can choose powers from disciplines other than your own if they are not on a restricted discipline list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psion to learn powers from the lists of other disciplines or even other classes.) A psion can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.
The number of times a psion can manifest powers in a day is limited only by his daily power points.


Straight from SRD. As I read it (me and everyone else that is not you, actually :P) this means you can't pick powers from the restricted lists, that is, Telepath/Seer/etc, but the Psion/Wilder list represents generalistic powers that anyone can master if he decides to go for it.



Well, that or every single psion NPC in every book and every article on the subject are wrong.

Back to the topic, if you intend to make a kineticist, here's some random ideas:

Pack some healing and/or Vigor and run amok with Overchannel. Also, Empower a lot, meaning you need Psionic Meditation. Remember that you need some utility, so be sure to get some telekinesis, Psi Dimension Door, and avobe all, Time Hop. That power is so useful it's amazing. From your restricted list, energy Missile is undoubtedly the best; Control Body should also not be underestimated if used intelligently. Be sure to check Untapped Potential (it's third party, but it's very good) for the Energist, because I can guarantee you you are going to have fun with the sheer blasting capability it will give you. Expanded Knowledge for some restricted powers is also recommended -especially a lot of things from the Telepath list. Also, Astral Construct.

EDIT: I've been sneaked upon and ninja'd. By a BEAR. Who shoots LASERS. Man, I really need to work on my Spot, post haste.

enderrocksonall
2007-02-01, 01:25 PM
The bolded sentence is not in the XPH so i bow before you're collective rightness.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 01:29 PM
Your.

Incidentally, if this is your first foray into psionics, I don't think that jumping fully-clothed in at 11th-level is a good idea. Maybe make the insanity gradual, so that you start at 1st-level and "gain" new levels each day. That way you would at least have time to try out your lower powers first.

Khantalas
2007-02-01, 01:32 PM
Well, let's say not in the section you'd think it would be in.

Look at page 64, Adding Powers:


A psion can learn any power from the psion / wilder list and powers from his chose discipline's list.

So it's clearly, though in a well-hidden fashion, stated that an egoist can select, say, a telepathy power on the general list.

Telok
2007-02-01, 04:10 PM
Be sure to check your math on the metapsionic feats, it may not be worth it.

Since you can only use power points equal to your manifester level, and metapsionics costs points, you will lose manifester level on any power you augment. This may not worry so much with Empower as that only costs two power points, but if you use higher cost metapsionics on powers with saveing throws you'll lose save DC.

jlousivy
2007-02-03, 08:29 PM
Thank you so much for all the ideas, but could someone help me with the 'optimal' use of energy missile?

And now I'm potentially now going to go blaster--- but just pick up the kinetisist stuff that is required with feats (since i dont need any item creation and such)

Also, would Contingency--- vigor(all 11 points so +55 temp hp) on an attack that would reduce said character's hit points below 1 be a viable strategy?

The Glyphstone
2007-02-04, 06:01 AM
Maybe - but Psionic Contingency is much worse than arcane/divine Contingency, because it hits you for XP each casting. If you're gonna spend XP for psionic powers, let it be something like Psychic Reformation (rebuild your character...well, most of it....for, like 25XP/level).

oriong
2007-02-04, 02:45 PM
Thank you so much for all the ideas, but could someone help me with the 'optimal' use of energy missile?


Typically your best bet is probably just to use it to inflict fire damage on your opponent. If you're in a situation where you can tell the opponent has a good reflex save (especially evasion) switch to cold damage which does as much damage but allows a fortitude save instead of reflex.

Obviously use elemental types that your opponent is not resistant/immune to.

Pick electricity for dealing with targets with high SR/PR

Sonic is pretty much only for if the target is stacked with resistances or if you're targeting objects (extremely good way to destroy objects)

In fact, it might be legal to target an opponents gear, if so this would be just about the ultimate 'anti-weapon' spell.

EDIT: Yep, looks valid. You can use the Sonic Missile to inflict 11d6-11 damage to any enemy weapons you like, ignoring hardness. That's nearly enough on average to shatter a +2 greatsword in one hit.

If you empowered and overchanneled it you'd get something like 48 damage on average against the objects. that'll take out a longsword +4 or a greatsword +3 without difficulty. You could immediately disarm an entire party of enemies.

God energy missile is so broken.

Marius
2007-02-04, 05:28 PM
Energy missile is not broken, any save-or-die spell or power is way more powerful. Energy missile is actually a good damage power that's very useful when you fight a lot of enemies that are standing close to one another. Sure you can change the energy type on the fly but you have to pay with power point if you want to argument it (unlike spells that scale for free).

oriong
2007-02-04, 05:35 PM
Energy missile is not broken, any save-or-die spell or power is way more powerful. Energy missile is actually a good damage power that's very useful when you fight a lot of enemies that are standing close to one another. Sure you can change the energy type on the fly but you have to pay with power point if you want to argument it (unlike spells that scale for free).

It's still broken in relation to just about every other psionic power in existence and is more powerful than just about any direct damage effect (spell or power). And utility wise it's still more powerful than spells like finger of death and so on.

It may not be as strong as Wail of The Banshee or Implosion but considering those are ninth level spells being compared to a second level power that's hardly a comfort.

Thomas
2007-02-04, 06:16 PM
Energy missile is crazy, for its level. Our party kineticist literally ended fights with it in Dark Sun.

(Of course the 3.0 psionic dominate was much more overpowered...)

Marius
2007-02-04, 06:53 PM
It's still broken in relation to just about every other psionic power in existence and is more powerful than just about any direct damage effect (spell or power). And utility wise it's still more powerful than spells like finger of death and so on.

It may not be as strong as Wail of The Banshee or Implosion but considering those are ninth level spells being compared to a second level power that's hardly a comfort.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253


Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered
Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary.
Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike.
Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage.
For further comparison of usage, if enemies are not bunched up, meaning you can get maybe 2-3 enemies at most with the power, it might actually be better to focus on one and use an Energy Ray - a level 1 general power - which has no save, but requires a touch attack. This means that enemies with Evasion / Improved Evasion / good saving throws are more likely going to take half damage from Energy Missile, halving its effectiveness, while on Energy Ray, with a ranged touch attack, they take full. The downside to the Ray is needing to make the touch attack, or wasting the power points. Some feel, and justifiably so, that 1/2 is better than nothing. But, in the case of Improved Evasion, the best you can hope for is half (unless using cold - as you can see, the logistics of taking all the powers and permutations is pretty intense).
The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group.
The Energy / Damage portion of this power is explained in Myth6.
The targetting powers portion of this power was clarified by the author, Bruce Cordell, in an email response. He stated that the power cannot target attended objects. However, his choice of wording and memory of the game rules left many individuals feeling he was mistaken about game mechanics and, as such, is still up for debate. The spirit of the power as stated by the author, however, is that it can nottarget attended / held objects, and would be a legitimate ruling on those grounds.

oriong
2007-02-04, 07:44 PM
Wow, almost every single point in that 'myth' is incorrect.

First I notice it continually talks about how many things could be weakened about energy resistance and still keep it viable. This is a horrible way to make an arguement.

Let's compare it to 3rd level powers then (as per it's first point). You've got Energy Bolt, Energy Burst (and for kineticists) Energy Cone. All inflict just as much damage to the target as Energy Missile and of the same types. However, they are all inferior to energy missile (a power one level lower than all of them). The Energy Bolt is practically worthless as far as multiple targets go. The Bolt is the least effective area of effect because it is the hardest to get multiple targets into. At best you might get two or three and that's pushing it in many encounters. Energy Burst is even worse since it has no range at all. Instead you hit everything within 40 feet of you. The odds of this ever being a good idea are very low since if you have allies anywhere that close to you they'll get hurt and if you don't then you are alone against a significant number of opponents. It's bad. Energy Cone is better than the other two but cones are still a bad choice for area of effect. They tend to be clunky and difficult to get many targets into. See my next point. In all cases the powers suffer from the fact that they don't have as good a save DC as energy Missile. That alone makes energy missile far superior since a direct damage effect is counting on the target's failure at a saving throw to have any major effect (it's also the only way they'll effect those with evasion or similar powers).


As far as the 'only affects 5 targets if they're within 15 feet' portion of the arguement. This is an advantage The ability to affect multiple close targets is better than a spread or a burst effect like fireball or flame strike. First off because it's potential area of effect is much bigger and secondly because of multiple enemy efficiency. D+D combat is geared towards small numbers of powerful opponents, no more than half a dozen at once is the typical maximum. If more than that appear then they are typically extremely weak individually. This is the only case where a fireball might be better and even then it's not a big concern since many, many weak enemies will be wiped out without even using spells. A fireball-type effect is weaker than an energy missile style effect. You will almost never get more targets in a fireball than you will with an energy missile but you are often more likely to get more targets with energy missile than fireball. What's more energy missile does not create collatoral damage or friendly fire issues. Often your options will be limited by your companions since you can't simply lob fireballs into a melee. Energy Missile never creates this problem.

The comparison with concussion is just utterly wrong. It's true, concussion doesn't allow a save (gasp!) but even fully powered up by a 20th level manifester a concussion attack will only inflict 9d6 damage, less than half of energy missile's 20d6+20 damage (which inflicts 58.5 damage more on average). So it hardly matters than concussion doesn't allow a save, because even if the save against energy missile is sucessful (a very slim chance) it will still inflict more damage. And as for the 'multiple targets' perhaps reading concussion will be helpful. Each additional target beyond the first is a sacrifice of 1d6 damage. Concussion gets few enough as it is. If the manifester attempted to target 5 targets with a concussion power he'd end up with a grand total of 4d6 damage each as opposed to the other psion's 20d6+20 each. Even if both powers were forced to target only a single individual Energy missile (despite losing those 5 extra attacks) still does better damage. The one advantage concussion has is that it is a Force effect which hardly makes up for the difference in damage. It would take a target with energy resistance of 50 to make the damage difference felt between the two (and that assumes the psion can't find an energy the target isn't resistant to) or an incorporeal target to make one more appealing. So yes concussion is better if you're fighting something incorporeal and that is it. Otherwise energy missile blows it out of the water.

The energy ray comparison falls apart. As it points out itself, evasion is no real defense against energy missile, and the missile can switch saves to target the weakest one. This combined with the power of the electricity missile and the fact that it's save scales twice as fast as any other power means it's extraordinarily difficult for you to ever find yourself in a situation where saving throws are a problem. A save-monkey like a monk-paladin could cause problems but that's it, and their touch AC is undoubtably very high anyway. All this means is that it's a good idea to have energy missile AND energy ray (which certainly isn't difficult) or more likely energy missile and something like Crystal Shard.

And the text of the power is not vague at all: if it can't target attended objects then neither can the shatter spell. The 'spirit of the power' is just an unjustified limitation in an attempt to band-aid it's brokenness.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 08:40 PM
Energy Missile is a good damage-dealing power. There aren't many of those. It verges on overpowered for its level. I mean, Direct Damage NEEDS to be tossed a bone.

As to comparing it to Wail of the Banshee--if it's doing 20d20+20, damn right you should be comparing it to Wail of the Banshee, because you're augmenting it to the equivalent of a 9th level spell.

Comparing it to Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, and Rope Trick... it's certainly tolerable. Glitterdust alone has certainly turned tough fights into very easy ones for me. i.e. ended them. Same with Slow.

oriong
2007-02-04, 08:48 PM
Energy Missile is a good damage-dealing power. There aren't many of those. It verges on overpowered for its level. I mean, Direct Damage NEEDS to be tossed a bone.

As to comparing it to Wail of the Banshee--if it's doing 20d20+20, damn right you should be comparing it to Wail of the Banshee, because you're augmenting it to the equivalent of a 9th level spell.

Comparing it to Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, and Rope Trick... it's certainly tolerable. Glitterdust alone has certainly turned tough fights into very easy ones for me. i.e. ended them. Same with Slow.

It is still not a ninth level power just because of the augmentation system. It's a second level power that uses up energy equivalent to a ninth level effect. Especially in psionics it can be a minimal difference but it is not the same. Tornado Vortex and Energy Wave are meant to be better than Energy Bolt and Energy Ray, not simply equal. There is supposed to be a difference.

A more apropraite comparison might be a low-level power that has been metamagiced to a higher slot: say a fireball that has been Empowered 3 times.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 08:52 PM
A power augmented with enough PP to make a 9th level power is the effective equivalent of one. You could manifest a 9th level power, instead. Theoretically, the 9th level power should be a bit better... but practically, this just isn't the case; augmented lower-level powers beat out higher-level powers a whole damn lot of the time.

If you're spending 17 PP on it, you could have spent those 17PP on a 9th level power (or, as a wizard, a 9th level slot).

oriong
2007-02-04, 09:07 PM
A 20d6 energy missile would actually be more along the lines of a 10th level power disturbingling enough.

But, using up the same amount of energy is not the same thing as actually being a high level power.

This isn't the case for a wizard, because they have full access to their spellbook, however a psion's power selection isn't even as good as a sorcerer. They would need a very good reason to pick up a high level power when they could simply augment a lower level power to serve in it's place.

Like you said, often it doesn't work out this way towards the higher levels. At lower levels it is a bit more true: Energy Missile clearly beats out Energy Ray, and so does Energy Current but as it gets towards the higher ends you start to see less and less actual reason to take them over the low-level effects. Energy Wave, for instance, is practically worthless. It's obviously most apparent with direct damage powers since they are the ones that tend to scale without limit.

So, clearly the psionics system doesn't do it's job very well there. But suffice it to say that a 2nd level power with 20 points invested in it isn't meant to be as good as a 9th level power with 20 points invested in it even if both consume the same amount of your daily PP. Like you said, this is only sometimes the case.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-04, 09:24 PM
Yeah, Energy wave is a sucky power. Energy Ray isn't that great, either. Energy Missile is a great power. I can't bring myself to shudder over direct damage not being crappy for once.

Using up the 20 PP makes it the equivalent of an augmented 9th level power. It effectively is one--especially since higher level powers are not necessarily (or even most of the time) better than augmented lower-level ones. Powers are meant to scale; higher-level powers just have new *kinds* of effects. There is nothing to compare a 20-PP power to but other 20-PP-spent powers, if for no other reason than that those 20 PP could've been spent on the higher-level powers just as easily.

Marius
2007-02-05, 07:51 AM
But that doesn't make it broken it just makes it good. Against a BBEG it's not your best option or in any fight against one or two big opponents and you are better off using crystal shard a 1st level power with no save or energy stun another 2nd level power that deals less damage but leaves the target stunned if they fail both saves.

oriong
2007-02-05, 09:20 AM
But that doesn't make it broken it just makes it good. Against a BBEG it's not your best option or in any fight against one or two big opponents and you are better off using crystal shard a 1st level power with no save or energy stun another 2nd level power that deals less damage but leaves the target stunned if they fail both saves.

No, Crystal Shard is only really useful against magic immune opponents, it will do less damage for the same amount of PP (because of energy missile's +1/dice) and crystal shard will not penetrate DR, so against any big enemy past 4th or 5th level you're likely losing much more damage.

Energy Stun is also a very good power, and is also bordering on overpowered, but it is much more limited in utility. You can get tons more damage from Energy Missile by empowering (you can't do that with energy stun because of the lower damage dice and the fact that it needs every ounce of that DC boost) and you also have to deal with the fact that your target is allowed two saves. And of course Energy missile wins anytime you have more than one opponent.

The only power I would concede to be as good as energy missile is Energy Current, a power 3 levels higher and that's only because the extremely efficient damage/power point you can get.

Marius
2007-02-05, 09:52 AM
No, Crystal Shard is only really useful against magic immune opponents, it will do less damage for the same amount of PP (because of energy missile's +1/dice) and crystal shard will not penetrate DR, so against any big enemy past 4th or 5th level you're likely losing much more damage.

Energy Stun is also a very good power, and is also bordering on overpowered, but it is much more limited in utility. You can get tons more damage from Energy Missile by empowering (you can't do that with energy stun because of the lower damage dice and the fact that it needs every ounce of that DC boost) and you also have to deal with the fact that your target is allowed two saves. And of course Energy missile wins anytime you have more than one opponent.

The only power I would concede to be as good as energy missile is Energy Current, a power 3 levels higher and that's only because the extremely efficient damage/power point you can get.

Energy stun has one more big advantage: Any Psion can get it. If a telepath wants Energy missile he would have to wait until 5th level and burn a feat.
But my point is that Energy missile doesn't break the game , it's an awesome damage power but that's it.
Argumented Power's are not all meant to be worse than higher level powers. Just look at astral construct, Charm or time hop (I love time hop :smallbiggrin: ), those powers never get old. Psion get few powers but they can still use them at high levels, that's how the system works.

oriong
2007-02-05, 12:34 PM
Energy stun has one more big advantage: Any Psion can get it. If a telepath wants Energy missile he would have to wait until 5th level and burn a feat.
But my point is that Energy missile doesn't break the game , it's an awesome damage power but that's it.



All that means is that energy missile is effectively a 3rd level power (psions have feats to spare, the cost of the feat is fairly irrellevant) for most psions. It's still dramatically unbalanced compared to other third, or even 4th level powers.

And no, it doesn't break the game, almost no power or spell breaks the game. That's just about impossible. However, it is dramatically unbalanced and is probably among the top 5 best damage-inflicting abilities in the entire game, and considering that it is a power (i.e. weaker than a spell) and a low level one, this is unbalanced.


Argumented Power's are not all meant to be worse than higher level powers. Just look at astral construct, Charm or time hop (I love time hop :smallbiggrin: ), those powers never get old. Psion get few powers but they can still use them at high levels, that's how the system works.

I am aware of this, there are powers that have no higher level equivalent because it is simply built in. It's one of the advantages psionics has. However, this is also not the case for all powers. Higher level powers are always meant to be better than lower level powers. Some powers don't have a higher level equivalent, but that's a different issue. Energy Missile has a ton of higher-level equivalents (i.e. every damaging power above 2nd level). and it is superior to all of them (with the possible exception of energy current)