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Teapot Salty
2014-03-02, 02:07 PM
Hey guys, I just wanted to ask. Is there any difference between dm and gm. If there is what is it, and if there isn't, why are they different names?

Coidzor
2014-03-02, 02:16 PM
Hey guys, I just wanted to ask. Is there any difference between dm and gm. If there is what is it, and if there isn't, why are they different names?

It's the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and any other table top role playing game.

Dungeon Master. Game Master.

Game Master is the generic term. Dungeon Master is specific to D&D. Storyteller is specific to a number of games, most notably the entire body of White Wolf stuff.

Teapot Salty
2014-03-02, 02:18 PM
It's the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and any other table top role playing game.

Dungeon Master. Game Master.

Game Master is the generic term. Dungeon Master is specific to D&D. Storyteller is specific to a number of games, most notably the entire body of White Wolf stuff.
So is the reason pathfinder uses gm as opposed to dm is because of legal issues then?

Ravens_cry
2014-03-02, 02:29 PM
Dungeon master as said in full might also want to be avoided under certain circumstances, as it has uses in *cough* other forms of role playing.

Frozen_Feet
2014-03-02, 02:30 PM
DM, or Dungeon Master, is a term specific to D&D and its kin. It's mostly used in context of those games, or for historical reaons. Chances are, if you see the word DM used, the user is talking about D&D even if no other indication of a game system is given. To save yourself some trouble, you should immediately ask which version of D&D is in question (for reasons detailed below).

GM, or Game Master, is a much more general term and applies not only to RPGs, but many other types of games as well (boardgames, cardgames, children's games etc.). Game Master basically refers to any game where a single person has primary responsibility and right for setting up and arbiting rules of said game.

There are many other terms used for people in these positions, overlapping with but having slightly different connotations from each other. These include: game leader, game host, referee, arbiter, judge, storyteller, narrator, director etc. You can usually tell something of a game's design philosophy and what kind of play it emphasizes by looking at what term it uses for the game master.

On these boards, you might have seen words like "gentlemen's agreement" or "rule zero" bandied about. If these are used in combination with Dungeon Master, their meaning is instantly made more specific, and if you know about history of D&D, you can probably guess what they mean without further explanation.

If they are used in combination with Game Master or some other word, they could mean anything. There is no universal Rule 0 for all games with a GM; what the role entails varies from game to game. Likewise, there is no universally agreed-upon gentlemen's agreement, spoken or unspoken. On anything. When people talk about "gentlemen's agreements", what they usually refer to are the unspoken metagames formed around the actual game rules. Each games has a different one, and some games have multiple ones. D&D in particular has had various different metagames throughout the years. Most of them have been codified and put on paper in some form, but still others haven't. They kind of float around, yet people assume you to know even if you have never heard of them due to the monolithic status of D&D (though lately, that status has been lost somewhat.).

Lastly, I'm fairly sure the term "Dungeon Master" is tied to D&D product identity somehow. COuld be wrong here.

Rhynn
2014-03-02, 02:37 PM
"Dungeon Master" is the original D&D term. The DM created the dungeon, and ran adventures that frequently happened in dungeons.

Other games had less of a focus on dungeons, or practically no dungeon at all, so they called the person "Game Master."

Other games use other terms: Referee and Judge are fairly simple, and Storyteller is only a little further out. Some have much more esoteric terms.

So the only differences are how game-specific the terms are.


Also, some games may avoid the term "Dungeon Master" because TSR sued Gary Gygax over basically every last term of RPG jargon he used when he created a RPG after being forced out of TSR. Whether the term is now covered by WotC's Open Gaming License I can't say.

Mrc.
2014-03-02, 02:42 PM
The term in CoC is keeper. Just in case anyone was wondering.

Felhammer
2014-03-02, 02:43 PM
DM is namebrand, GM is generic.

DeusMortuusEst
2014-03-02, 02:46 PM
A most excellent post on the subject.

[Like +1]

Very well explained, cookie to you.

Red Fel
2014-03-02, 02:55 PM
This is the Dungeon Master (http://www.dungeonsdragonscartoon.com/2009/08/dungeon-master.html).

This is the Game Master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_N).

Any questions?

Stoneback
2014-03-02, 03:24 PM
Labyrinth Lord uses the term "Labyrinth Lord" and Mazes & Minotaurs uses "Maze Master". All of them, including Dungeon Master, are a little cutesy.

FallenFallcrest
2014-03-02, 03:59 PM
Uh, well considering the full three dimensional alignment spectrum, consisting of over two hundred alignments, I would have to say, that I am Strongly Lawful Good. Clearly, there is no other possibility.

Ravens_cry
2014-03-02, 04:00 PM
Uh, well considering the full three dimensional alignment spectrum, consisting of over two hundred alignments, I would have to say, that I am Strongly Lawful Good. Clearly, there is no other possibility.
Wrong thread?

BWR
2014-03-02, 04:09 PM
Nobilis uses the term 'Hollyhock God'. That is hands down my favorite name for the job

DigoDragon
2014-03-02, 04:42 PM
Interesting tidbit~ In my local group we use GM for pretty much any system. "DM" is something more like a specific title they use for me, since I tend to run the most complex and interesting games (and by far the most challenging).

Tengu_temp
2014-03-02, 05:16 PM
I use the term DM most of the time, no matter the system. And I don't even play DND.

AMFV
2014-03-02, 05:56 PM
I use the term DM most of the time, no matter the system. And I don't even play DND.

But... but... that's wrong...

neonchameleon
2014-03-02, 05:58 PM
This is the Dungeon Master (http://www.dungeonsdragonscartoon.com/2009/08/dungeon-master.html).

This is the Game Master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_N).

Any questions?

Ahem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare)

Felhammer
2014-03-03, 01:36 AM
Marvel Heroic Roleplaying used the term Watcher.

Lorsa
2014-03-03, 04:35 AM
I've never liked the term Dungeon Master because it implies that if you're playing D&D and it's not taking place in a dungeon, you're doing it wrong. The only term I dislike more is Storyteller because it implies a rather awful player agency.

Game Master feels like a much more neutral term. I see no real reason of not using it for everything.

Delta
2014-03-03, 05:20 AM
Game Master feels like a much more neutral term. I see no real reason of not using it for everything.

This. GM just describes the job well enough in just about every usual situation.

Stoneback
2014-03-03, 06:55 AM
For that matter, "master" is a loaded term. Like somehow one guy is playing better than the other guys? And they have to dethrone him? Rubbish.

BWR
2014-03-03, 06:59 AM
Or maybe 'master' just means someone who is in charge of something. Or possibly someone who has mastered an art or craft.

Stoneback
2014-03-03, 07:48 AM
Dungeon boss? Foreman?

Raimun
2014-03-03, 07:56 AM
Master is an apt term for someone who controls the actions of everyone, from the lamest goblin to the greatest wyrm.

Everyone, save for a handful (or two) of very violent people who have banded together and for someone reason, have seemingly dedicated their lives to fight the forces controlled by this master.

AMFV
2014-03-03, 08:05 AM
Dungeon boss? Foreman?

Dungeon Foreman runs into a problem when you to non-D&D games since it'll become GF which could induce confusion.

Delta
2014-03-03, 08:43 AM
For that matter, "master" is a loaded term. Like somehow one guy is playing better than the other guys? And they have to dethrone him? Rubbish.

That is true, personally, I'd prefer something like the german "Spielleiter", which translates closest to "game director" and sounds a lot less weird to me.

Frozen_Feet
2014-03-03, 08:44 AM
"Leader" and "host" are most common alternatives to "master" in my experience. "Organizer" would also fit.

Ravens_cry
2014-03-03, 09:07 AM
Hmm, question from the peanut gallery, do other languages that D&D has been translated into use Dungeon Master?

AMFV
2014-03-03, 09:20 AM
For that matter, "master" is a loaded term. Like somehow one guy is playing better than the other guys? And they have to dethrone him? Rubbish.

It's only as rubbish as calling the player's characters Player characters, and the GM's character's Non-Player characters. It's just a term, and it's one that people have adopted, whatever baggage was there originally appears to be gone. Most terms in roleplaying are not as linguistically perfect as they could be.

DigoDragon
2014-03-03, 09:25 AM
In the system Toon, it's called the 'Animator'.

The HoL game system uses the term 'HoLmeister'.

Aedilred
2014-03-03, 09:43 AM
I dunno about negative vibes. When I run a game I insist on being called the "Game Lord" and address my players as "Peasants". (PC stands for "peasant's character".)

Joe the Rat
2014-03-03, 10:19 AM
We've also had Judges (as in those who rule in arbitration of the rules) and referees (those who enforce the rules).

If you feel that Game Master is a little too hierarchical, consider it like being an MC - Master of Ceremonies. You're not the lord, you're the host.

Red Fel
2014-03-03, 10:25 AM
Personally, I prefer to go by "O Captain! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Captain!_My_Captain!) My Captain! (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174742)"

But for some reason I don't know of any system that agrees with me.

Jay R
2014-03-03, 10:28 AM
I've never liked the term Dungeon Master because it implies that if you're playing D&D and it's not taking place in a dungeon, you're doing it wrong. The only term I dislike more is Storyteller because it implies a rather awful player agency.

Game Master feels like a much more neutral term. I see no real reason of not using it for everything.

It never felt to me like anything other than an abbreviated term for "Dungeons and Dragons Master" - the person in charge of the game of D&D. I never felt like it was opposed to wilderness adventures.

But to be fair, I think it's been decades since I've used the full term "Dungeon Master". Like most people I know, I just use the initials: DM.


For that matter, "master" is a loaded term. Like somehow one guy is playing better than the other guys? And they have to dethrone him? Rubbish.

The word "master" has many meanings, and you're applying one that does not apply. A master can be the person in charge, which certainly does apply.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-03-03, 10:31 AM
We've also had Judges (as in those who rule in arbitration of the rules) and referees (those who enforce the rules).

If you feel that Game Master is a little too hierarchical, consider it like being an MC - Master of Ceremonies. You're not the lord, you're the host.
Incidentally, Apocalypse World uses the term "MC" for the GM. :smallbiggrin:

Personally, I prefer to go by "O Captain! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Captain!_My_Captain!) My Captain! (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174742)"

But for some reason I don't know of any system that agrees with me.
You should try standing on the table while you run games.

Red Fel
2014-03-03, 10:44 AM
You should try standing on the table while you run games.

Are you sure you've never attended one of my games? :smallwink:

Rhynn
2014-03-03, 02:28 PM
Hmm, question from the peanut gallery, do other languages that D&D has been translated into use Dungeon Master?

The Finnish is "luolamestari." Mestari = master; luola = cave, luolasto = set of caves, dungeon ("luolastomestari" would sound weird and awkward but maybe that's a matter of being used to it; probably not, though, Finnish is full of compound words where other options would just sound wrong).

Meanwhile, the Finnish for Game Master is "pelinjohtaja"; peli = game, johtaja = leader, conductor. So "the Game's Conductor/Leader."

Felhammer
2014-03-03, 03:06 PM
I've never liked the term Dungeon Master because it implies that if you're playing D&D and it's not taking place in a dungeon, you're doing it wrong. The only term I dislike more is Storyteller because it implies a rather awful player agency.

Game Master feels like a much more neutral term. I see no real reason of not using it for everything.

I think Dungeon Master is a relic from when the game was indeed about Dungeons. However, I don't really feel it requires you to focus on dungeons any more than a "storyteller" has to focus on just the story, or a Watcher has to focus only on watching, etc. Its just a flavorful term used to describe the position of host, campaign setting crafter, NPC-controller, referee, rules arbiter, adventure designer and lens through which the players see the world.

Having said that, Game Master can also be viewed as fairly loaded. You aren't really the master of the game, because that implies control over all its aspects (which can be just as detrimental to player agency as "storyteller"). Additionally, some may feel calling Roleplaying a "game" infantilizes the hobby.

Coidzor
2014-03-03, 03:11 PM
Having said that, Game Master can also be viewed as fairly loaded. You aren't really the master of the game, because that implies control over all its aspects (which can be just as detrimental to player agency as "storyteller"). Additionally, some may feel calling Roleplaying a "game" infantilizes the hobby.

Meh. Those people are reading too much into things and looking for a fight where none is being offered.

Sal Trebov
2014-03-03, 03:21 PM
A lot of the old material, like the White Box, simply used "Referee", which... I dunno, seemed to downplay how important the role was. Throwing the word "Master" in it gives it more of an active feel, which it certainly is.

You still hear the term referee being used to describe what a DM/GM does, though.

Airk
2014-03-03, 03:23 PM
A lot of the old material, like the White Box, simply used "Referee", which... I dunno, seemed to downplay how important the role was. Throwing the word "Master" in it gives it more of an active feel, which it certainly is.

You still hear the term referee being used to describe what a DM/GM does, though.

Referee is one the possible roles/functions of the GM, but I think it's a terrible word to use, because even in games where the GM IS a referee, the GM is ALSO doing a ton of other stuff, and in many games, the GM isn't really a referee at all.

Ravens_cry
2014-03-03, 03:26 PM
The Finnish is "luolamestari." Mestari = master; luola = cave, luolasto = set of caves, dungeon ("luolastomestari" would sound weird and awkward but maybe that's a matter of being used to it; probably not, though, Finnish is full of compound words where other options would just sound wrong).

Meanwhile, the Finnish for Game Master is "pelinjohtaja"; peli = game, johtaja = leader, conductor. So "the Game's Conductor/Leader."
Fascinating, thank you.:smallsmile:

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-03-03, 04:37 PM
A lot of the old material, like the White Box, simply used "Referee", which... I dunno, seemed to downplay how important the role was. Throwing the word "Master" in it gives it more of an active feel, which it certainly is.

You still hear the term referee being used to describe what a DM/GM does, though.
There was also definitely a shift in tone. "Referee" implies that they're an impartial party, letting the chips fall where they will. The reason they set up the playing field is to give the players a reasonable world to romp about in.

ComatosePhoenix
2014-03-03, 04:55 PM
I have always associated DM with games like HeroQuest where the Dungeon Master role is especially antagonistic and less of a referee.

While my definition appears to be incorrect I like the feel of it.

TuggyNE
2014-03-03, 08:03 PM
Most terms in roleplaying are not as linguistically perfect as they could be.

Fixed that for you! :smallwink:

Stoneback
2014-03-04, 04:08 AM
Dungeon Foreman runs into a problem when you to non-D&D games since it'll become GF which could induce confusion.

Okay, sure, but you're making a fatal mistake: wasting time on girls.

Delta
2014-03-04, 04:24 AM
Hmm, question from the peanut gallery, do other languages that D&D has been translated into use Dungeon Master?

I'm not 100% sure about D&D since I never used a translated D&D version, but in general, the most commonly used term in german is "Spielleiter", which translates into "game director" or "game leader" or something like that. Now, back in the day, when DSA became the first successful german RPG (which was in the beginning basically a german D&D ripoff although it became very, very "german" later on), they actually used the term "Meister" (master) for the GM, but hardly anyone outside of DSA players ever uses it and even among them it's mostly with a nostalgic touch because it's hard to take too seriously.

Although you can still hear "meistern" ("to master") as a verb for running a game pretty regularly among DSA fans here, but apart from that, "Spielleiter" is really the most popular term for GM.

Stoneback
2014-03-04, 04:38 AM
As usual, the Germans have the coolest words for things.

Lorsa
2014-03-04, 04:58 AM
It never felt to me like anything other than an abbreviated term for "Dungeons and Dragons Master" - the person in charge of the game of D&D. I never felt like it was opposed to wilderness adventures.

But to be fair, I think it's been decades since I've used the full term "Dungeon Master". Like most people I know, I just use the initials: DM.

I guess you could see it that way yes. Also, if you've basically grown up with D&D and used that term since the beginning of your roleplaying career, I can understand why you'd feel it was completely natural.


Having said that, Game Master can also be viewed as fairly loaded. You aren't really the master of the game, because that implies control over all its aspects (which can be just as detrimental to player agency as "storyteller"). Additionally, some may feel calling Roleplaying a "game" infantilizes the hobby.

I really don't think the word Master in these terms is loaded at all. I mean, is there a better term to use? Besides, that word doesn't really make Dungeon Master any less similarly loaded does it? It just feels like instead of using a generic 'Game' Master, instead you change it to a specific 'Dungeon' Master. That change has to mean something so the conclusion is the game should take place in dungeons. If Dungeon Master was indeed the correct term in early D&D it isn't anymore so there's no reason they couldn't change, right?

It's the same with Storyteller. You have a very generic term that doesn't really say anything about the exact nature of the responsibilities of the GM other than that they are different from a player and then you go and change it into ST. That must be for a reason so obviously you want that person to tell a Story. When I am a player I don't want my GM to tell me a story, and when a whole gameline tells you that's what they should do I get upset.

Could you explain more why the term Game is such a problem? I think it's a very good description of what is usually taking place. We do play a game, don't we?


Hmm, question from the peanut gallery, do other languages that D&D has been translated into use Dungeon Master?

Unfortunately I don't think D&D has ever been translated into Swedish. I see no reason for doing this either, considering how well most people know english.

The term used in Swedish is in general Spelledare which translates into "Game Leader".

BWR
2014-03-04, 05:37 AM
Could you explain more why the term Game is such a problem? I think it's a very good description of what is usually taking place. We do play a game, don't we?


If it's a 'game' you aren't taking it seriously enough.
It should be something like Interactive Communal Creativity Exercise or something. Can't you just imagine hanging to your 'icky' group? Or keeping 'itchy' nights sacred? Not letting just anyone join your 'ecchi' club?

Lorsa
2014-03-04, 06:46 AM
If it's a 'game' you aren't taking it seriously enough.
It should be something like Interactive Communal Creativity Exercise or something. Can't you just imagine hanging to your 'icky' group? Or keeping 'itchy' nights sacred? Not letting just anyone join your 'ecchi' club?

Some groups certainly are both icky and itchy...

But it being a game or not says nothing about how serious people should or shouldn't take it. Football is also a game and people definitely take THAT seriously. Especially in Brazil.

Joe the Rat
2014-03-04, 10:28 AM
If it's a 'game' you aren't taking it seriously enough


But it being a game or not says nothing about how serious people should or shouldn't take it. Football is also a game and people definitely take THAT seriously. Especially in Brazil.

Games are serious business.
Just don't call it a "hobby."

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-03-04, 10:36 AM
But what if it's my favorite hobby?

Tengu_temp
2014-03-04, 11:38 AM
Games are serious business.
Just don't call it a "hobby."

But it is just a hobby. It's pretendy fun games. Something you do for entertainment.

If you treat roleplaying as something more than that, it means you're probably approaching this too seriously and need to take things under perspective.

Airk
2014-03-04, 12:51 PM
But it is just a hobby. It's pretendy fun games. Something you do for entertainment.

If you treat roleplaying as something more than that, it means you're probably approaching this too seriously and need to take things under perspective.

Yeah, sorry, unless roleplaying is somehow paying your bills, it's a hobby.

sktarq
2014-03-04, 02:08 PM
I think DM made perfect sense back when DnD started as the players controlled the PC's and the Dm controlled the various aspects and creatures of the dungeon that the PC were exploring. He literally controlled the dungeon itself. He placed to traps, the monsters, etc. Eventually made the maps etc. THe dungeon was basically his character. So DM made perfect sense then....with the drop in dungeons as the primary setting for DnD the term became less accurate but still carried over from tradition and a lack of easy better term. With more open or sandboxy games the storyteller/GM/DM is in charge of creating and running the world that the PC operate in-and calling the person who does the a World Master seems .... pompous, non conductive to attracting those of mental stability, and lack of hubris to role lets say.

Waddacku
2014-03-04, 02:21 PM
The term used when D&D started was "referee", though. Dungeon Master is a later invention.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-03-05, 08:10 AM
The term used when D&D started was "referee", though. Dungeon Master is a later invention.

Well, it dates back to at least the release of the first Dungeon Masters Guide. :smallamused:

I think use really depends on which system you first started with - DM for D&D, GM or referee for the others.

sktarq
2014-03-06, 11:03 PM
The term used when D&D started was "referee", though. Dungeon Master is a later invention.

Yes but when the term DM came to be common the DM's were still mostly built around Dungeons and the Referee still controlled all the Dungeons inhabitants, traps etc. So even if it was new then it was still applicable and if anything a descriptive term of what that person DID while the table.

NightDM
2014-03-06, 11:31 PM
If it's a 'game' you aren't taking it seriously enough.
It should be something like Interactive Communal Creativity Exercise or something. Can't you just imagine hanging to your 'icky' group? Or keeping 'itchy' nights sacred? Not letting just anyone join your 'ecchi' club?

New from WOTC, Interactive Communal Creativity Exercises... you think this is a game, son?! :smalltongue:

Personally I've always used DM, so GM always seemed a bit off to me; though I guess that's because I grew up playing dnd.

Though to be fair I do make my players refer to me as Dungeon Overlord...

Narren
2014-03-07, 12:39 AM
My group and I came up on D&D, so we call the guy running the game the "DM" no matter what system it is. Even the White Wolf stuff.

Knaight
2014-03-07, 03:18 AM
I use GM, as I basically cut my teeth on Fudge, though there were brief stints in D&D and some home brew system before that. Plus, dungeons make up maybe .1% of the GMing I've done, so DM is just off.