Char-Op (sorta): Diviner + True Strike

[Stella]

A new campaign is starting up. It won't be heavily char-op, and I'm not looking to break the game by any stretch of the imagination. I was looking at being Wizard, and the fact that a Diviner only need to bar one school looked attractive to me. Then I was looking over Divination school spells and saw the spell True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) and got to thinking about the advantages and disadvantages of kinda-sorta focusing around this spell which I do not ever recall having used in a game before.

As I see it, and I am not good at all at char-op, the advantages and disadvantages are as follows:

Advantages

Only have to bar one college (pretty major, in my mind)
Can select to make specific attacks which will always hit*
Versatile, the bonus can apply to anything which needs an attack roll (touch or otherwise), a spell, a missile or melee attack (heaven forbid it's melee!), or any other attack such as a splash weapon/Tanglefoot bag/Thunderstone. The +20 to hit is even shared with the familiar, although this is of very limited utility given the 5 foot sharing range
It's an Insight Bonus, which is fairly rare and so not much worry about stacking
No real worries about making a touch or other attack roll, so no need to park stat points in Dex or spend a feat on Weapon Focus: Ray
A bit of synergy with the more martial wizard multi-classing options such as Arcane Archer, or even non-martial options such as Loremaster
Fairly cheap to get (or make) scrolls/wands of True Strike



Disadvantages

Need a Feat spent on Spell Focus (some other school) in order to enjoy the DC bonus
Need a (or more) Feat(s) spent on meta-magic in order to enjoy more 'free' True Strike spells per day (i.e. Silent Spell so I can take another True Strike as a 'free' L2 spell)
Slows down my spell casting since I can't Quicken it for many, many levels (the campaign will probably not go past 8th level or so)
Spending 2 spells and 2 rounds for 1 effect, even if that effect is much more of a sure thing
Touch attacks aren't typically terribly difficult to make even without a +20 to hit
Requires a bit of forethought and/or luck as to when you might really need that (near) guaranteed hit, although even if you're wrong you still get that +20 to hit


* I realize that a +20 to hit isn't a guarantee, but it's about as close as it comes. Only a roll of a '1' will be a miss against almost all targets for much of the campaign.

I don't envision being hyper-focused on True Strike, but a (near) guarantee hit when you really need one seems pretty attractive to me.

Any comments or suggestions for going down this thematic path? Especially appreciated would be any spell/feat/multi-class/etc. synergies, if any, that the more char-op knowledgeable folks might be able to suggest, since it looks to me that the disadvantages don't make this a particularly potent "combo" (if I can even call it that when the True Strike spell is by definition and design a combo spell).

[Fax Celestis]

You should check sure strike in PHB-II. Swift action cast, smaller bonus, but never misses on 1. whoops wrong spell

Also Spontaneous Divination ACF in CCham.

[Pinkie Pyro]

it's a first level spell, you could just get a wand of true strike and be done with it.

what spell school are you going to ban if you do this?

what do you mean you'll need metamagic for more "Free" truestrikes? last I checked, you can just prepare a spell in a higher level slot. (or there was a feat that let you do it, can't remember.)

if you're stuck to this, i'd suggest a lesser metamagic rod of quicken as soon as you can afford one.

[ace rooster]

It can be a very useful spell in some builds, but not hugely for a diviner. An eldritch night or abdjurant champion can use it for power attack, but my favorite use of it is for an assassin with snipers shot to get sneak attack with a distance heavy crossbow from a range of 2390ft. There is a -18 to hit from the distance, but you still work out +2. A level 10 character will use 3 dimension doors to get to you, and he gets a +239 to hide. More reasonable is a wizard in full plate, as it is naturally a still spell.

[Eldariel]

Manyshot goes great with True Strike; hit the whole attack with a single roll. ToB maneuvers are also a nice fit, at least the ones that rely on hitting hard, once. Then there are the various Orbs and one-shot-kills where you might want it. It goes great with Power Attack particularly on attacks with multipliers (Mounted Charge being the ur-example), obviously.

If you want to focus on it, you absolutely want to Quicken it. It's a great tool for a Gish as mentioned and indeed, if you really want to focus on it you should probably be a Gish. Remember the "no Concealment-based miss chance"-clause; it's actually super relevant when you can pinpoint an opponent but can't see them (e.g. if you attack someone through a wall with Phasing Arrows from Dragon Magazine or if you're fighting in magical darkness or enemy used Dust of Disappearance). Crucially it negates Total Concealment.

To correct one misconception, as said before, you can certainly prepare a lower level spell in higher level slots no problem.

[Nettlekid]

You should check sure strike in PHB-II. Swift action cast, smaller bonus, but never misses on 1. whoops wrong spell

Also Spontaneous Divination ACF in CCham.

Just out of curiosity, that "whoops wrong spell" bit after the strikethrough, does that imply that there IS a spell that lets you not miss on 1? If so, I'd love to know about it.

[Fax Celestis]

Just out of curiosity, that "whoops wrong spell" bit after the strikethrough, does that imply that there IS a spell that lets you not miss on 1? If so, I'd love to know about it.

IIRC yes, but damned if I can remember where.

[Stella]

You should check sure strike in PHB-II. Swift action cast, smaller bonus, but never misses on 1. whoops wrong spellThis looks handy, despite being a L2 spell. Thanks!

Also Spontaneous Divination ACF in CCham.Also handy, but it's not likely the DM will allow it in this campaign.


what do you mean you'll need metamagic for more "Free" truestrikes? last I checked, you can just prepare a spell in a higher level slot. (or there was a feat that let you do it, can't remember.)I wasn't aware you could simply memorize a lower level spell into a higher level spell slot. But if it requires a feat, that doesn't make it much better than taking Still Spell, for the few uses per day I envision using True Strike, and given that Still Spell has a lot of other good applications. If it doesn't require a feat then that disadvantage is eliminated, so I'll check into that, thanks! [Edit: Thanks to Eldariel for clearing the rules on this up!]


It can be a very useful spell in some builds, but not hugely for a diviner. An eldritch night or abdjurant champion can use it for power attack, but my favorite use of it is for an assassin with snipers shot to get sneak attack with a distance heavy crossbow from a range of 2390ft. There is a -18 to hit from the distance, but you still work out +2.How do you overcome the -239 to your Spot Check to even see the target from that distance? By RAW the target isn't hiding from you for there to even be an opposed check, but half a mile of distance seems to easily fall into the "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it" text under the Spot skill, as well as the text which reads "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins."

Half a mile is a very good rifle shot even with the best of modern sniper rifle and scope equipment. To say nothing of actually getting a clear line of sight to actually see and identify your intended target and be able to take a shot at such a range. If they aren't a single target such as a political or entertainment leader during a specific engagement who might be the sole person on a stage, or a religions leader who might wear distinctive clothing, the circumstance penalties on top of the distance penalties could easily be prohibitive for such a shot.

[Endarire]

Preparing spells in higher level slots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm).

[ace rooster]

How do you overcome the -239 to your Spot Check to even see the target from that distance? By RAW the target isn't hiding from you for there to even be an opposed check, but half a mile of distance seems to easily fall into the "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it" text under the Spot skill, as well as the text which reads "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins."

Half a mile is a very good rifle shot even with the best of modern sniper rifle and scope equipment. To say nothing of actually getting a clear line of sight to actually see and identify your intended target and be able to take a shot at such a range. If they aren't a single target such as a political or entertainment leader during a specific engagement who might be the sole person on a stage, or a religions leader who might wear distinctive clothing, the circumstance penalties on top of the distance penalties could easily be prohibitive for such a shot.

20/20 vision in good daylight and spoting someone at half a mile is not hard unless they care camoflaged. I regularly spot people more than a mile when out hillwalking, and I am hardly epic. On a football pitch I would find it hard to overcome the -30 to see the opposite goalkeeper if you assume everyone is hiding at all times. The important word is may. In woodland for instance, or other concealment.

Half a mile is a very good shot, which is why it needs true strike and a distance crossbow.

[Edit] Oh yes, and the wizard is the flying one. Easy to identify, and easy to get a line of fire.

[Zanos]

How do you overcome the -239 to your Spot Check to even see the target from that distance? By RAW the target isn't hiding from you for there to even be an opposed check, but half a mile of distance seems to easily fall into the "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it" text under the Spot skill, as well as the text which reads "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins."

Half a mile is a very good rifle shot even with the best of modern sniper rifle and scope equipment. To say nothing of actually getting a clear line of sight to actually see and identify your intended target and be able to take a shot at such a range. If they aren't a single target such as a political or entertainment leader during a specific engagement who might be the sole person on a stage, or a religions leader who might wear distinctive clothing, the circumstance penalties on top of the distance penalties could easily be prohibitive for such a shot.
While I agree that a half-mile may be pushing it, the distance penalties to spot checks is one of the things that many DM's handwave away because it's a pain to look it up and in many cases it works out to stupid things, such as an average person being unable to see a person on the other side of a football field.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, you want to get to quicken as soon as possible, and as cheaply as possible. You also want to be a gish, or at least inclined to martial damage of some kind. Here is my idea.

Silverbrow Human
Focused Specialist Diviner 5 (acf at 5th for spontanious divination) / ruathar 3 / Fighter 1 / Abjurant Champion 5
Feats
Human - Metamagic school focus
1st - Quicken Spell
3rd - Easy metamagic
6th - Practical Metamagic
9th - Arcane Thesis
F1 - Power Attack

At 9th level you have 1st level quickened truestrike 3/day and 2nd level truestrikes all day. Listening lorecall will give you good blind sense, so you bypass invisibility. When shooting at mirror images, close your eyes, as you ignore the miss chance for total concealment. You should be wielding a greatsword and power attacking. It will be hard to stop you from landing hits on anything in your reach.

You also have cheap quicken even for things not truestrike. Quicken is reduced to a +2 metamagic.

[Piggy Knowles]

How do you overcome the -239 to your Spot Check to even see the target from that distance? By RAW the target isn't hiding from you for there to even be an opposed check, but half a mile of distance seems to easily fall into the "Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it" text under the Spot skill, as well as the text which reads "Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins."

Half a mile is a very good rifle shot even with the best of modern sniper rifle and scope equipment. To say nothing of actually getting a clear line of sight to actually see and identify your intended target and be able to take a shot at such a range. If they aren't a single target such as a political or entertainment leader during a specific engagement who might be the sole person on a stage, or a religions leader who might wear distinctive clothing, the circumstance penalties on top of the distance penalties could easily be prohibitive for such a shot.

Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm), Share Husk, binding Malphas... there are a lot of ways you can extend vision.

[Stella]

While I agree that a half-mile may be pushing it, the distance penalties to spot checks is one of the things that many DM's handwave away because it's a pain to look it up and in many cases it works out to stupid things, such as an average person being unable to see a person on the other side of a football field.I don't have any issue with being able to see someone, as a person and not an individual, at that distance. But being able to identify them as your particular target is a whole other matter.

ace rooster says that he should get an easy identification on "the flying one", but I've already allowed for that case and even gave my own examples where a particular person might be easy to identify from a long distance. Many wizards who can grant themselves flight for the day can also do the same for their entire party. Now who do you target? The vague blur on the left, or the vague blur on the right? Not all wizards wear robes with constellation patterns and pointy hats, after all.

A person not in any kind of distinctive clothing walking in a group of people, that's a whole different case and one where I'd be happy to apply the listed Spot penalties.

I'm also a bit amused by any argument which cites RAW for its advantage and similarly decides to "hand wave" RAW where it is disadvantaged. Any GM willing to dispense with the RAW where it is disadvantageous to the players is really just asking for the kind of abuses where people easily assassinate their targets from a half mile away without any rational, rules based penalties. I italicize easily because assassinating people from a half mile away is possible even in a non-magical setting. I only want to bring the the forefront the dichotomy between the rules which apparently allow this action vs. the rules which deny this action.

Aaaaaand, I'm well off topic.

[Nightraiderx]

I would grab a wand of arrowmind if you do choose to use a bow (which multishot would be the best use of true strike shenanigans)

[ace rooster]

I don't have any issue with being able to see someone, as a person and not an individual, at that distance. But being able to identify them as your particular target is a whole other matter.

ace rooster says that he should get an easy identification on "the flying one", but I've already allowed for that case and even gave my own examples where a particular person might be easy to identify from a long distance. Many wizards who can grant themselves flight for the day can also do the same for their entire party. Now who do you target? The vague blur on the left, or the vague blur on the right? Not all wizards wear robes with constellation patterns and pointy hats, after all.

A person not in any kind of distinctive clothing walking in a group of people, that's a whole different case and one where I'd be happy to apply the listed Spot penalties.

I'm also a bit amused by any argument which cites RAW for its advantage and similarly decides to "hand wave" RAW where it is disadvantaged. Any GM willing to dispense with the RAW where it is disadvantageous to the players is really just asking for the kind of abuses where people easily assassinate their targets from a half mile away without any rational, rules based penalties. I italicize easily because assassinating people from a half mile away is possible even in a non-magical setting. I only want to bring the the forefront the dichotomy between the rules which apparently allow this action vs. the rules which deny this action.

Aaaaaand, I'm well off topic.

Actually you are very much on topic, as identifying targets at long range should be a diviners forte. If there is a diviner style of combat I would imagine it should revolve around knowing more than your enemy, starting with where they are.

The problem with arguing over RAW and whether they are handwaved is that RAW explicitly state the the DM is to determine whether a spot check is needed or the task is easy. What is easy for the level 15 elf ranger is up to the DM, but should probably be beyond what I can do. The DM is asked to call for a spot check when it is required, with the default being that no check is required. RAW is to handwave it. Not very helpful I will admit.

Also, beside PCs abusing wish, or who have spent huge amounts of time using rules tricks to make their wizard unkillable murder machines, The mundane who has decided to stand out of range hardly seems like an abuse. More like common sense.

[Stella]

Silverbrow Human
Focused Specialist Diviner 5 (acf at 5th for spontanious divination) / ruathar 3 / Fighter 1 / Abjurant Champion 5
Feats
Human - Metamagic school focus
1st - Quicken Spell
3rd - Easy metamagic
6th - Practical Metamagic
9th - Arcane Thesis
F1 - Power Attack

At 9th level you have 1st level quickened truestrike 3/day and 2nd level truestrikes all day.

You also have cheap quicken even for things not truestrike. Quicken is reduced to a +2 metamagic.I've finally had a chance to look into this. It seems pretty sweet, but I'm not sure I'm "getting it."

It seems to rely on being able to ignore the "You can never reduce the spell-slot cost below one level higher than the spell's actual level" limitation from Easy Metamagic and the similar "to a minimum of one level higher than a spell's normal level" from Practical Metamagic by applying the -1 level from Arcane Thesis after you apply the reduced levels from those two feats.

I can see the possible logic, since Arcane Thesis was picked up after those other feats, but it still seems a bit cheesy to eliminate the limitations of two feats by taking a third.

How do you get the Dragonblood subtype required for Practical Metamagic? Doesn't that require another feat, or does it come free with being a Silverbrow? I'm not familiar with it and the web hunting I've done didn't show me a specific "comes with dragonblood" citation.

[Fouredged Sword]

You have 4 metamagic reducers in this build

Metamagic School focus - 3/day reduce the metamagic costs of a spell from a school of magic by 1, can reduce to 0

Arcane Thesis - Reduce the metamagic cost for a single spell by 1, can reduce to 0, but not used in this case.

Easy metamagic - Reduce the cost of a single metamagic feat by 1

Practical Metamagic - reduce the cost of a single metamagic by 1

Using the three all day effects, quicken is reduced to a +1 metamagic, and you can then pay for that increase using metamagic school focus 3/day.

[Stella]

Hmmm... Isn't Quicken Spell useless/not allowed on a spontaneously cast spell, which the character would now have for all divination school spells?


Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

[Edit]It looks like spontaneously casting a divination spell is an option, so as long as I simply prepare True Strike I can still apply Quicken to it and get all the metamagic reducing love from the feats/class abilities.

[Eldariel]

Hmmm... Isn't Quicken Spell useless/not allowed on a spontaneously cast spell, which the character would now have for all divination school spells?

Unless you trade your familiar [PHBII] or take Rapid Metamagic [Complete Arcane], yes.

[Stella]

Further reading seems to conclude that Silverbrow Humans do not have the Dragonblood subtype required for Practical Metamagic.

Also, Abjurant Champion requires the Combat Casting feat.

The need to spend two feats to pick up the Dragonblood subtype and Combat Casting will slow down the progression a lot before the character can cast L1 Quickened True Strike or multi into Abjurant Champion, but it's still a pretty neat concept.

[Eldariel]

Further reading seems to conclude that Silverbrow Humans do not have the Dragonblood subtype required for Practical Metamagic.

What?

Page 4 in Dragon Magic:
"THE DRAGONBLOOD SUBTYPE
Races that have a strong affinity to dragons are of the dragon blood subtype. (This method of classification, introduced in Races of the Dragon, is referred to frequently in this book.)
Spells, effects, powers, and abilities that affect or target dragons also affect dragonblood creatures. The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by dragons, and it qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite.
The dragonblood subtype does not confer the dragon type or any traits associated with that type. For instance, it does not give a creature frightful presence.
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. If a creature acquires the dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype."

Page 6:
"Otherwise, silverbrow humans are identical to the humans described in the Player's Handbook, except as noted below.
—Dragonblood Subtype: Silverbrow humans are of the dragonblood subtype (see page 4)."

Races of the Dragon Page 101:
"PRACTICAL METAMAGIC
You can apply a selected metamagic feat to your spells more easily.
Prerequisites: Dragonblood subtype, Spellcraft 8 ranks, any metamagic feat, ability to spontaneously cast 3rd-level spells."


What further reading? That seems pretty unambiguous.

[Stella]

What further reading? That seems pretty unambiguous.I don't own those books, and all I was able to find Goggling around were two fan-forums where the question was asked and answered 'no'. So thank you for clearing that up for me!