Should LA based off ability scores be ignored?

[TheLastSane1]

Well should they?

What are they based against?
Is a +4 Str, +2 Con really worth an LA? Is something like +6 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int worth an LA?

Because if we use what the books tell us is the average for a PC which is 12 a +6 gives us a 18 which is feesable in a starting roll.

Does that mean we need to penalize people who roll 18s as if they had taken a +6?

I would understand if they where judging all their Abilities off 18 because 24 is very high for a level 1. But we have no indicators for that purpose.

What if you where given a low point buy, or had to roll using the old Roll in order method?

Imagine not rolling anything higher then 12, say you wanna be a monk and you roll a 12 str, 8 dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 8 Cha. Would the Githzarei's +6 Dex, +2 Will, -2 Int really be that game breaking?

The Githzarei's thing is the PLA right? Well a constant +4 Armor is scary sure.. except it takes up an armor slot.. ok so the guy is wearing Chain Mail without wearing armor if he puts on armor he loses the +4 bonus and he cannot enhance it with new magical armor.
The DCs for Daze and Shatter are DC 9 and DC 11 respectively.
Is that a +2 round up?

Seems like when they are judging LA they judge them off a 18 score base, not the average of 8-12.

So should we ignore an LA that is mostly based off Ability Scores?

[OldTrees1]

Yes and no.
Are they worth LA +1? No. While they are strong, levels are not the currency/resource worth spending on getting higher stats.
Are they sometimes stronger than LA +0? Yes.

Solution: If ability modifiers are too large for LA +0, nerf them until they are fine for LA +0. (This is related to the "use point buy rather than roll" solution for ability scores)

[TheLastSane1]

What is LA+0? What stats are fit into that title? I could roll all 18s with a legit dice roll system does that penalize me with a LA+1 or 2?

[Lightlawbliss]

What is LA+0? What stats are fit into that title? I could roll all 18s with a legit dice roll system does that penalize me with a LA+1 or 2?

First: any sane DM would be checking for weighted dice with a roll like that. (heck, I check for weighted dice if somebody gets 2 18s)

second: the rolls are separate from racial modifiers and/or template modifiers. high rolls don't give LA.

[OldTrees1]

What is LA+0? What stats are fit into that title? I could roll all 18s with a legit dice roll system does that penalize me with a LA+1 or 2?

If you rolled all 18s, then what did the least luck person at the table roll?
All 18s [Max roll] (96 pt buy) vs 3 8s, 2 12s and a 14 [Min roll] (14 pt buy)? Yeah the DM* might want to give the unlucky player an extra level or two because you have +10 to 3 stats, +6 to two and +4 to the last. (However there are subtle details like how useful the stats are and how competitive the players are)

*The rules do not give LA for luck disparity in a group. A DM might.


A total of +6 to useful abilities would still be within LA +0 in my opinion.

[Urpriest]

The guy with +4 Str has just as much chance of rolling an 18 as the guy with +0 Str.

[SinsI]

Maybe LA should be based on the final, adjusted score? That way if you start with a stat of 20 you get an LA, but if you start with 18 you don't.

[Fax Celestis]

Let's ask a related question: If there was a race that got +2 to all ability scores but had no other racial features, would you take it?

[TheLastSane1]

...Its an example just an example!

My point is are ability scores really all that powerful on their own, do they deserve an LA if they do not take the PC's scores above 18?

So if someone picked Goliath and they had a 14 in strength that +4 brings them to an 18, so that is strong yes but not out of the realm of a lucky one off roll.

[Zaydos]

12 is by no means the base, though. A character will on average have better than the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and one without a 14+ is re-rollable. The character you presented is one where the DM is supposed to let you/force you to re-roll... and seems to be 3d6 assign them where they fall which is not part of 3.X rules at all. Officially they balanced LA around the elite array and if you're using something significantly different from that baseline things will be different; if you're using rolls that should be re-rolled things will also be even more different, and unless you're really using abnormal things or have someone cheating 6 18s are astronomically unlikely, a small enough chance to be ignored (unless you do KotD style roll at home all week until I get a set I want after tens of thousands of rolls).

Then you have to remember that LA is independent of rolls, in that it is your race and it is supposed to balance races against each other. So +6 Dex, +2 Wis, and -2 Int is a lot better than a bonus feat and an extra skill point unless you're an Int based caster or factotum. In intent human with rolls X will be as good (actually better) at any given class than any non-standard race with the same rolls.

Is LA for high ability scores usually too much? Yes. LA was made with several flaws in understanding about how the game works (small is negative LA because it hurts melee while helping casters; LA is based off comparing to an unoptimized fighter 9 times out of 10), but a race with +6 Dex is significantly better at rogue or ranger than a race without and they were made with the assumption of roughly average rolls across the party as that is the most likely situation. As a DM one could attempt to balance ability score rolls with free LA, but at that point just use point buy, or assigned arrays (all your scores are 15, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14).

[TheLastSane1]

Let's ask a related question: If there was a race that got +2 to all ability scores but had no other class features, would you take it?

I think I have heard of a Human race in a splat book somewhere that has that or something similar.

[HunterOfJello]

Is LA buyoff involved? Then a +1 LA or +2 LA with purely awesome stat bonuses could be justified until the character buys them off. A +1 LA can be bought off by level 3.

If LA buyoff isn't on the table, then the LAs that just give nice stat bonuses quickly become massive hindrances that aren't worth having.

[Urpriest]

...Its an example just an example!

My point is are ability scores really all that powerful on their own, do they deserve an LA if they do not take the PC's scores above 18?

So if someone picked Goliath and they had a 14 in strength that +4 brings them to an 18, so that is strong yes but not out of the realm of a lucky one off roll.

If the guy was a Human, though, he'd be stuck with a 14 Strength. The point of LA is to balance out how much more powerful you are than if you were another race.

If you have a DM who uses rolling for ability scores, then they believe that rolling for ability scores is balanced, so people who roll higher don't need to be balanced with people that roll lower. If you have a DM who believes that people who roll higher need to be balanced with people who roll lower, then that DM uses point-buy and the question never comes up.

[TheLastSane1]

Perhaps but then the question becomes. Is a bonus Feat not worth an LA then?
Feats are far more powerful then a few points increase in a stat.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps but then the question becomes. Is a bonus Feat not worth an LA then?
Feats are far more powerful then a few points increase in a stat.

Well, the flipside of the coin is that in general the things which give LA aren't worth LA. But if you want to fix that, you have to rewrite the LA of every monster, and if you're going to do that, you might as well use a better mechanic than LA in the first place, like homebrew monster classes.

Basically, I can't think of a game where both the DM would put in enough effort to rebalance LA, and not care enough to just build homebrew monster classes or use other non-LA monster balancing strategies.

[Fax Celestis]

So far the best system I've found for level adjustments is Paragon classes. Everyone starts with a basic LA +0 race, and if you want the higher features you take the racial paragon class. Sure, this means you can end up with two elves where one is significantly elfier than the other elf, but if you spend your resources becoming elfier, shouldn't you be elfier than the elf who didn't spend his resources becoming elfier?

tl;dr: Elfy elves elf elfier than unelfy elves elf. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Bu ffalo_buffalo)

[MadGreenSon]

I've not found LA to be all that useful at all really. After a certain point what you are means a lot less than what you do.

To clarify: at 10th level, the monsteriest monster PC Fighter or other melee type is not as dangerous as a human wizard. At 1st level the Ogre Barbarian may rule all, but soon enough he'll just be one of the crowd.

More often than not, I waive LA if the character looks interesting and isn't just a silly stack of templates or something.

[Invader]

If you're going to assign LA based on good rolls you have to assign it based on build as well which is vastly more important.


Is a +4 LA worth it to play a minotaur crusader or barbarian?

What about a minotaur wizard...

[MadGreenSon]

What about a minotaur wizard...

A minotaur wizard would be awesome! "Welcome to my maze...of death!"

Have to really see if some mileage can be gotten out of their natural abilities and immunities there.

[Zaydos]

If you're going to assign LA based on good rolls you have to assign it based on build as well which is vastly more important.


Is a +4 LA worth it to play a minotaur crusader or barbarian?

What about a minotaur wizard...

Savage Species does go as far as saying that a DM should consider reducing LA for non-synergistic combinations such as that one (I forget if the example was minotaur or ogre wizard).

Really LA needs to be rebalanced for party optimization level (and this is why in RL games my rule is "LA tends to be lower than listed, but ask me for what species you want to play").

[Invader]

Really LA needs to be rebalanced for party optimization level

This exactl!

I wasn't aware a book actually suggested to adjust LA based on class in anyway, that's good to know although I never play a nonbeneficial class :smalltongue: