Swift Hunter Dervish help

[Blackhawk748]

I will be starting a campaign in Dragonlance sometime this week and i will be starting at lvl 8, i think, i havent been told otherwise so im going to assume standard WBL for a lvl 8 character. My plan as of right now is to be a Wild Shape Ranger but trade my Animal Companion for Wildshape instead of my Combat Styles, so itll look kinda like this:

1 Scout-Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise (Either from Flaw or Human Bonus Feat)
2 Scout
3 Scout- Expeditious Dodge
4 Ranger
5 Scout - Swift Hunter (Bonus Feat)
6 Ranger - TWF (Combat Style), Mobility
7 Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian
8 Dervish
9 Ranger- Two Weapon Defense
10 Ranger
11 Ranger
12 Dervish- Imp TWF
13 Dervish
14 Dervish
15 Dervish- Whirlwind Attack
16 Dervish
17 Dervish
18 Dervish- Greater TWF
19 Dervish
20 Dervish

Now ive never made a Dervish, or a Swift Hunter before so any and all help is appreciated, thanks.

[paperarmor]

here are some Hand (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html)books (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1057856) they should help additionally two weapon defense is kinda bad and once you start during your shtick you won't need extra AC. Also maybe drop the pounce Barb as you can space out the full attack over the entirety of your move and tumble around an enemy until he dies.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya Two Weapon Defense is there because i cant think of another feat, and i was grabbing Pounce Barb so i could do something when im out of Dances, it also makes a great opening attack

[paperarmor]

Good point. I'm assuming you have complete scoundrel available so I'm gonna also recommend the lovely improved skirmish instead of TWD adds 2d6 damage and 2 ac to skirmish when you move 20ft. Also what other books are avilable this will help a lot.

[Blackhawk748]

Book wise pretty much everything is fair game, and i may grab Imp Skirmish

[Urpriest]

I will be starting a campaign in Dragonlance sometime this week and i will be starting at lvl 8, i think, i havent been told otherwise so im going to assume standard WBL for a lvl 8 character. My plan as of right now is to be a Wild Shape Ranger but trade my Animal Companion for Wildshape instead of my Combat Styles, so itll look kinda like this:

First of all, that is an excellent deal and your DM is probably mildly crazy to let you get away with it, but whatever, enjoy.

Second of all, if you're planning on using TWF while in a Wildshape and only relying on the choices you get with Ranger 5 then you'll need Improved Unarmed Strike (plus either a favorable DM ruling on using TWF with unarmed strikes or a Mouthpick weapon in addition) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (so you can use it with Dervish).

[Blackhawk748]

Well i wasnt really gonna use the WIldshape for combat, mostly for stealth and scouting, and maybe for running away really fast, i figured id get more use out of it than an animal companion.

Also i may play a Quasithrope, but for the life of me i cant remember what book they're in.

[troqdor1316]

Ok, I'm actually the DM of Blackhawk748's game, and I found this thread because I googled "quasithrope" to figure out what the hell it is. First of all:


Book wise pretty much everything is fair game, and i may grab Imp Skirmish

This is definitely not true, and whichever of my players told you this should fear my powerful retribution. Unless the book is a Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Dungeonmaster's Guide, or written specifically for the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, you must run all things by me before using them.

Second:


First of all, that is an excellent deal and your DM is probably mildly crazy to let you get away with it, but whatever, enjoy.



I have no idea what the repercussions would be of allowing him to do what you're calling crazy. I would greatly appreciate it if you helped me understand so I can decide whether to actually allow it.

Also, cool, you're Urpriest. My gaming group won't shut the hell up about you.

One final note to you, Blackhawk: Seeing as the rest of the party consists of four completely un-optimized characters (a fighter, a paladin, a cleric, and a bard), I really have no idea why you're asking for help making a ranger/scout. You really don't need to optimize everything to have fun. If you make a super-optimized character, you'll just end up outshining everyone and they won't be happy about it.

[Urpriest]

Ok, I'm actually the DM of Blackhawk748's game, and I found this thread because I googled "quasithrope" to figure out what the hell it is.

For the record, it's probably supposed to be the Quasilycanthrope, which was published on the Wizards of the Coast website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a).

I will also note that since a Swift Hunter Dervish is pretty heavily predicated on non-PHB rules concepts, this thread is probably going to end up being superfluous. That said,


Second:




I have no idea what the repercussions would be of allowing him to do what you're calling crazy. I would greatly appreciate it if you helped me understand so I can decide whether to actually allow it.

Also, cool, you're Urpriest. My gaming group won't shut the hell up about you.


It's mostly just that it's quite a powerful trade. A Ranger's Animal Companion is mostly a fluff ability, since it's half-level and all. The Combat Style on the other hand is a big part of why people take Ranger levels in the first place. Wildshape is quite strong, probably stronger in absolute terms than the Combat Style, and certainly leagues ahead of the Ranger's weak Companion. Admittedly, 5th level Wildshape is not as much of a game-changer, but it's still quite a bit of mobility, guaranteed solid ability scores, natural attacks...I feel like if you're going to trade out the Animal Companion for Wildshape, it should be nerfed in some way...maybe limit it to Small forms, so it's only a scouting/mobility ability and isn't generally as useful for combat?

Hmm, so I have a reputation in the real world as well? Interesting.

[Blackhawk748]

Troqdor just so you know i always do this when i make a character, i find this a much easier way of finding interesting feats than attempting to page through a ton of books. That said I've never made a Dervish before and i simply wanted a general reaction to my build

[Ellowryn]

Someone got GM'd!!!

That's gotta hurt, anyways, so yeah drop the barbarian level, grab another hunter, and drop two-weapon defence.

Also, why do you have mobility? one attack on all targets in melee sounds nice, but your dervish dance is going to let you hit more once you get to that level.

[Blackhawk748]

Mobility is a pre req for Dervish, i would have taken it anyway because the +4 against AoOs is helpful

[Ellowryn]

Doh! :smalleek:

I meant whirlwind attack.

Are you duel-wielding scimitars? cause if you are you are probably eating an extra -2 to your attacks, might want to see about snagging oversized two-weapon fighting to get rid of the penalty.

[Blackhawk748]

I dont need it because the first lvl of Dervish makes them Light Weapons

[gorfnab]

Here is a basic Dervish Swift Hunter Build I have had some minor success with. It doesn't have the Wildshape Ranger option. Instead it focuses on TWF.

Human (or some other race + Flaws)
Scout 5/ Ranger - Arcane Hunter ACF (CM) 2/ Barbarian - Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA), Spiritual Totem: Lion ACF (CC) 1/ Dervish 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (okay as usual), Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Flay Foe, or Nemesis (great for Arcane Hunter Ranger ACF)

[Fax Celestis]

If your DM will allow you third-party, you could pick up Running Circles from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might instead of Two-Weapon Defense. The tl;dr version of the feat is basically, "If you start your turn in a creature's threatened area, you don't provoke AoOs for movement from that creature this turn."

[Urpriest]

If your DM will allow you third-party, you could pick up Running Circles from Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might instead of Two-Weapon Defense. The tl;dr version of the feat is basically, "If you start your turn in a creature's threatened area, you don't provoke AoOs for movement from that creature this turn."

Eh, I feel like that's unlikely to be an issue. This character should have high Dex and maxed Tumble, plus Mobility, AOOs are unlikely to ever be a problem.

[Fax Celestis]

Taking the feat will let them put points into something that isn't Tumble on an already skill-starved build, plus you don't have to deal with rolling or half-speed every time you want to move.