Best weapons for two-weapon fighting [3.5]

[Dusk Eclipse]

Title pretty much says all, I just want to hear your opinions on the matter.

Personally I think daggers/kukris are the best "base" weapons, but if you are willing to spend a feat I'd rank Dragonsplits (MM IV or V) above them.

[Blackhawk748]

Generally im a Rapier fan, decent damage dice for low levels, 18-20 crit, a light weapon. Also makes me feel suave and cool :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

According to my PHB and the SRD, Rapiers are one-handed weapons. Which granted isn't that bad for TWF for the reasons you mentioned, but it would need another feat to be somewhat effective (Over-sized two-weapon fighting).

[Blackhawk748]

I know rapiers are treated as Light Weapons for Weapon Finesse, i always just translated that to TWF too, its been awhile since ive read its entry

[OldTrees1]

I like the Daze effect of Dire Flail Smash.

Otherwise I go for Kukris.

[Dusk Eclipse]

By RAW it isn't treated as a light weapon, it is an specific exception to the rule that you can only apply Weapon Finesse to light weapons; in fact the text explicitly mentions it isn't a light weapon.

[Darrin]

Personally I think daggers/kukris are the best "base" weapons, but if you are willing to spend a feat I'd rank Dragonsplits (MM IV or V) above them.

Daggers are best for Shadow Blade/Bloodclaw Master. Dragonsplits are nice because they save you a feat (Oversize TWF) and they can be used with Power Attack.

I think Greatsword + Improved Unarmed Strike is probably the best combo from a pure numbers standpoint. You can probably swap in an Elven Courtblade or Kaorti Jovar for the Greatsword if you prefer.

Haven't had a chance to try it yet, but Cavestalker 4 lets you wield a spiked chain one-handed, then throw some Oversize TWF on that.

Dual morningstars + Three Mountains Style looks like fun.

Personally, my favorite... it stinks, numbers-wise, but I love me some dual bastard swords.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A two-handed weapon with Armor Spikes is pretty good. It really depends on the build, though.

[paddyfool]

I like the Daze effect of Dire Flail Smash.


Yes, but it's also the silliest weapon in the PHB, and that's saying something. How are you meant to use it without hitting yourself and/or the allies standing next to you?

[OldTrees1]

Yes, but it's also the silliest weapon in the PHB, and that's saying something. How are you meant to use it without hitting yourself and/or the allies standing next to you?

Refluff it as 2 morningstars?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

(Oversize) TWF with Morningstars, Three Mountains, and Melee Weapon Mastery for both piercing and bludgeoning can be decent if you're not in a high-op party.

[Ellowryn]

Unfortunately, it's been errata'd that you cant use melee weapon mastery twice on morning stars, or any other weapon that does more than one type of damage.

Rapier and Kukri are a good choice, especially with the Steal and Strike Feat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unfortunately, it's been errata'd that you cant use melee weapon mastery twice on morning stars, or any other weapon that does more than one type of damage.

I hadn't looked at that errata in a long time. I guess it's just another one of those slightly nice things that melee classes can't have.

[Ravens_cry]

If you can get it, though good luck with that, the Asian Weapons section of the DMG includes the Kusari-gama. It's practically a light weapon spiked chain, as it has the same reach. It doesn't crit often or hard, but that's rarely a thing for TWF as precision damage doesn't multiply on a crit.

[Amphetryon]

Spiked Chain + Razored Armor ranks pretty highly on my list for TWF.

[Darrin]

Spiked Chain + Razored Armor ranks pretty highly on my list for TWF.

Why razored? Doesn't look as silly as spiked, maybe?

[Amphetryon]

Why razored? Doesn't look as silly as spiked, maybe?

Spiked Chain is already a Piercing weapon (don't get me started on why it isn't also Bludgeoning), so I like the added ability to do Slashing damage, should I be facing an opponent - particularly in the first few levels of play - with a specific DR.

[Vedhin]

Haven't had a chance to try it yet, but Cavestalker 4 lets you wield a spiked chain one-handed, then throw some Oversize TWF on that.

It's fun. Thri-kreen can quad-wield spiked chains with this. Also, Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow let's you treat one-handed exotic weapons as two-handed for Power Attack. Now, you just have to convince your DM that you don't slice yourself to ribbons when attacking.

[Captnq]

Depends.

A Elvencraft Longbow with a bow blade is like, four weapons in one. None of them very impressive, but loads of space to dump WSAs into.

In general:
Always load up on the cheap stuff, Boot blade, elbow blade, knee blade, sleave blade, Horned helmet, Armor Razors AND Armor spikes (you can have both)


As for Light Simple weapons:
I go with the Aspergillum. same damage as a mace, yet it comes with room to put things in, like blister oil. It's an alchemy blade, yet you don't have to spend a feat.


Simple One handed:
Heavy Aspergillum, three times the blister oil.

Martial Light:
Throwing hammer - nice range
Kurki - Good crits
Light Pick - x4 ain't bad.

Martial 1hand:
Weighted Cloak - many options Nice with triple Dagger
Flail - Nice options
Rapier - Good crit ranger
Saber - Nice if you plan to be mounted often.

Exotic Light:
Fingerblade - Built in percision damage.
Ninja-To - It's four weapons for one exotic feat
Triple Dagger - If you Plan on disarming.

Exotic 1h:
Barbed Chain - Nice damage
Flind Bar - Free disarm
KAKITA KATANA - Just... broken. Don't care what it costs. It is broken. Anything that lets me make a +12 weapon Non-Epic is BROKEN.

There ya go Look at the EVD in my sig file if you have any other questions.

[Vedhin]

Weighted Cloak - many options Nice with triple Dagger


That reminds me of Song and Silence's Weighted Sleeves. They're sleeves that are weapons.

[rollforeigninit]

Personally, my favorite... it stinks, numbers-wise, but I love me some dual bastard swords.

Try you a Sun Blade on the OH. They are a pain to deconstruct but still...... I hear there's a legacy item that MIGHT be easier to deal with. It helps with the penalties.

[Vedhin]

Try you a Sun Blade on the OH. They are a pain to deconstruct but still...... I hear there's a legacy item that MIGHT be easier to deal with. It helps with the penalties.

There's a 3,000gp, no special features edition in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. All the short sword/bastard sword goodness, no price-raising extras.

[Darrin]

There's a 3,000gp, no special features edition in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. All the short sword/bastard sword goodness, no price-raising extras.

Yes, but unfortunately by strict RAW, the lesser/unawakened sunsword only acts as a shortsword for the purpose of proficiency. Only the sunblade (DMG version or the EtCR legacy version) has the text saying it has the "same weight and ease of use" as a shortsword. This annoys me to no end... But if you add the Morphing property to a sunblade, there are all sorts of wacky stuff you can do with it.

[Stoneback]

I like throwing hammers. 1d6, bludgeon, light weapon, 20' range. With quick draw, you can throw as often as you could swing. Very versatile.

About as good as throwing axes, but the bludgeoning damage makes them a little better.

[Bearlock]

From a purely optimization standpoint i would go with any double weapon.

Benefits being:

One weapon to take Wpn Focus/Spec feats with
Less penalties, one is considered a one handed, other is a light weapon when you full attack
Any round you can't full attack you can two hand one end for 1.5 power attack

If you're going the TWF route you're already planning on spending more gp on two weapon enchantments anyway, so this gives you a chance to max your damage with either ends

[Darrin]

Any round you can't full attack you can two hand one end for 1.5 power attack


Str is x1.5, Power Attack is 2:1.

There's also a quirky dysfunction on double weapon damage. The rules are clear that you treat one end as one-handed and the other as light for determining TWF attack penalties. But the text doesn't mention damage. The primary end gets x1.5 Str bonus on damage because you're gripping it in both hands. Offhand isn't so clear... damage rules say x1.5 Str for a two-handed grip, then say x0.5 for offhand. So which is it? The offhand end is only considered light for the purposes of determining TWF attack penalties, not damage.

And I kinda like the idea of double weapons getting a little bit of a damage buff. Kinda makes up for how most exotics aren't worth taking EWP. It also makes the quarterstaff the bad-a$$ weapon it should be.

Even better: elvencraft composite longbow, counts as a quarterstaff. Put a wand chamber in each end, maybe even a third wand chamber in the longbow "handle" (Tippy suggested this, not quite sure I agree yet). You can TWF, THF, shoot arrows, take a hand off to cast spells.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thanks for all the replies guys, there are a lot of different opinions (which is awesome) but it seems a lot of you guys went for the most effective way (Two handing+non-handed* weapon), which while true that it is better from an optimization PoV, goes against my main reason to go with TWF, the visual aesthetics.

One thing I hadn't consider is dual wielding morningstars and the like, they seem to be fun for a more "brutal" type of character like an orc warlord or something. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I need a BSF in the near future.

[Amphetryon]

Thanks for all the replies guys, there are a lot of different opinions (which is awesome) but it seems a lot of you guys went for the most effective way (Two handing+non-handed* weapon), which while true that it is better from an optimization PoV, goes against my main reason to go with TWF, the visual aesthetics.

One thing I hadn't consider is dual wielding morningstars and the like, they seem to be fun for a more "brutal" type of character like an orc warlord or something. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I need a BSF in the near future.

If the visual aesthetics are important, I like dual-wielding Scimitars, particularly in conjunction with the Aptitude enhancement to make them function as Light Maces for the crit-fishing goodness to be had there.

[Piggy Knowles]

I like to keep it simple - I'm rather fond of the quarterstaff. (Although after eight or nine years, I actually JUST discovered that Spell Compendium totally nerfed Spikes, which was one of my favorite things about the quarterstaff.) It's stylish and just about everyone has access to it. It also does solid damage, you can use it as a two-handed weapon if that's more valuable to you, and as a bludgeoning weapon it qualifies for Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If the visual aesthetics are important, I like dual-wielding Scimitars, particularly in conjunction with the Aptitude enhancement to make them function as Light Maces for the crit-fishing goodness to be had there.

A bit feat intensive isn't it? I mean TWF-line, OTWF, Weapon Focus, lightning reflexes and Lightning Maces, plus quite a bit of money ~16600 GP, so you wouldn't be able to afford them till level 10+? (I can't remember if WBL would allow for this).

Still a neat idea


I like to keep it simple - I'm rather fond of the quarterstaff. (Although after eight or nine years, I actually JUST discovered that Spell Compendium totally nerfed Spikes, which was one of my favorite things about the quarterstaff.) It's stylish and just about everyone has access to it. It also does solid damage, you can use it as a two-handed weapon if that's more valuable to you, and as a bludgeoning weapon it qualifies for Greater Mighty Wallop.

How could I forget about the Quarterstaff! It has everything you mentioned going for it and more, for example the Eliserv (sp) school feat is simply awesome for a quarterstaff wieldier. A meleeficer would be pretty good using a quarterstaff, having access to all the good buffs from all list and being able to have a good supply of offensive staffs on demand. It might get a tad expensive, but you are a Tier 1 character, WBL means nothing to you!

[Sith_Happens]

If the visual aesthetics are important

...Then kicking someone in the face after you stab them with a two-handed sword should be pretty high on your list.:smallwink:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well yes, but those are a different set of aesthetics, more along the lines of a Combat Pragmatist than a dual wielder.

[Sith_Happens]

Well yes, but those are a different set of aesthetics, more along the lines of a Combat Pragmatist than a dual wielder.

I'm not so sure about the pragmatist bit, since technically once your BAB is high enough you're stabbing/slashing, then kicking, then stabbing/slashing again, then kicking again. Which at least in my head means there's some spinning going on.

[Metahuman1]

No one's mentioned Gnome Quick Razors on an Iai-jutsu using build yet?

[Sith_Happens]

No one's mentioned Gnome Quick Razors on an Iai-jutsu using build yet?

Fun fact: Iaijutsu Focus is not trained-only.

[Dusk Eclipse]

At what point does IF damage caps? I'm pretty sure it would relatively easy to get to the point you can reliably make the checks for maximum damage.

[Sith_Happens]

At what point does IF damage caps? I'm pretty sure it would relatively easy to get to the point you can reliably make the checks for maximum damage.

9d6 with a check of at least 50.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, Iaijutsu Master lets you add your Charisma bonus as bonus damage per die of IF damage, which can add up quickly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ok 50 is a little more than I thought it would be, I thought about a relatively low-investment way to get some extra damage for TWF. Iaijutsu master is obviously a great option if you are going to focus on it, but if it is only a side-option I think the investement would be too high; and for some reason I thought it's abilities only worked with Katanas.

[Metahuman1]

Ok 50 is a little more than I thought it would be, I thought about a relatively low-investment way to get some extra damage for TWF. Iaijutsu master is obviously a great option if you are going to focus on it, but if it is only a side-option I think the investement would be too high; and for some reason I thought it's abilities only worked with Katanas.

Several of it's ability's only work with Katana's, but Strike From the Void, there 5th level ability that get's you Cha Mod damage per die, that works with whatever.

As for making the DC 50 check.

+30 Item.

Masterwork Tool.

+5 Cha Mod.

Motivate Cha aura to double that Cha mod.

+7 Item of a different bonus type form the +30 Item. Sure, it's double, but it closes the last of the Gap.

That get's you +49 to the check, so a minimum result, on a nat 1, of 50, and lands you 9d6 +10 per die equals 9d6+90 damage on a hit. That's a lot of damage on a TWF full attack cause you spent your time sneaking into position.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is definitely more than I was prepared to invest, for example the levels in Iaijutsu master or Marshal. To be honest I was willing to get enough to get to 20 or so for the +3d6 damage and call it a night since this isn't for an iaijutsu focused character.

The other thing is that at least in my games getting +30 items isn't reliable. I am aware that by RAW they exist but by the time I'd be able to afford one the would probably be over or close to (my groups tend to stop around level 13-14 most of the time).

Don't get me wrong it is an awesome idea.

[Theomniadept]

I'm a fan of the Elven Thinblade and Elven Lightblade. They do 1d8 and 1d6 damage respectively and have an 18-20 crit range, the thinblade can use Weapon Finesse, and they both count as a rapier for weapon focus feats. I once played a Disciple of Dispater and with Improved Weapon Familiarity and Improved Critical (Rapier) I had a crit range of 3-20.

[Temji]

greetings...

what the heck is a kakita katana, how do you get plus twelve on it, and what source do I find it in???

~looks above...~

yup, that covers it...

My thanks...

[Thurbane]

For a Dwarf, I'm a fan of Dwarven Battle Axes + Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Bastard Sword is not worth a feat for d10 damage, but a racial ability that gets the same net effect for free is nice.

[Buufreak]

I am a fan of oversized TWF, then dual full blades.

[MadGreenSon]

I am a fan of oversized TWF, then dual full blades.

We're also thinking of visual appeal.

Dual Jovars.

Made of gold.

[Vedhin]

We're also thinking of visual appeal.

Dual Jovars.

Made of gold.

Sorry, 2d6 isn't on the base damage table of Gold weapons. (check Magic of Faerun)

[Darrin]

Sorry, 2d6 isn't on the base damage table of Gold weapons. (check Magic of Faerun)

Doesn't have to be. That table goes by die type, not by base damage. 2d6 -> 2d8.

Things get more interesting with Strongarm Bracers and large-sized heavy jovars. Then 2d8 -> 4d6.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It still begs the question, how are you dual wielding Jovars when they are a THW?... I guess you could do it with a Diopsid or Three Krin.

[ericgrau]

Dual sickle or kama tripping. Possibly throw in quick draw, rapid shot, bolas and nets without proficiency, mix and match as desired. Because all your attacks are now touch attacks anyway, and for teh lols.

[Temji]

~reposts~

greetings...

what the heck is a kakita katana, how do you get plus twelve on it, and what source do I find it in???

[Fax Celestis]

Flindbars, dragonsplits, and rapier + hand crossbow as empowered by Versatile Combatant.

[Vedhin]

what the heck is a kakita katana, how do you get plus twelve on it, and what source do I find it in???

A nonmagical katana with a +2 enhancement bonus, you don't because enhancement bonuses don't stack, and Oriental Adventures.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A nonmagical katana with a +2 enhancement bonus, you don't because enhancement bonuses don't stack, and Oriental Adventures.

Even if it doesn't stack you can then get an effective +12 weapon, assuming the enhancement allows you to pile on special weapon abilities you could in theory have 10 effective levels which is a lot, add in a single casting of GMW at CL 20 and you have something truly scary.

[Fax Celestis]

Even if it doesn't stack you can then get an effective +12 weapon, assuming the enhancement allows you to pile on special weapon abilities you could in theory have 10 effective levels which is a lot, add in a single casting of GMW at CL 20 and you have something truly scary.

+11*. No matter what you do, you still need to put that +1 on there before you can enchant it. You can get +9 of mods, +1 enhancement, and then overwrite that +1 with the weapon's natural +2 for a total of +11.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is why I said assuming the +2 was enough, but now that you mention I think you are right. still a +11 effective weapon before epic levels is something noteworthy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That is why I said assuming the +2 was enough, but now that you mention I think you are right. still a +11 effective weapon before epic levels is something noteworthy.

It may sound nice but if you throw GMW on it anyway there is no mechanical difference from any other weapon, aside from base cost.

[Zanos]

Play a Diopsid, dual wield Greatswords. Get strongarm bracers for large greatswords.

No, I'm not compensating for anything! Other than being a bug person.

[Vhaidara]

Diopsid, go into Cavestalker (TWF focus). You get the ability to use spiked chains 1-handed. Quad-wield spiked chains.

[Vedhin]

Diopsid, go into Cavestalker (TWF focus). You get the ability to use spiked chains 1-handed. Quad-wield spiked chains.

I already ninja'd you. With a race that doesn't take penalties using it's secondary arms. And a way to get the main benefit of THF while 4WF.


It's fun. Thri-kreen can quad-wield spiked chains with this. Also, Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow let's you treat one-handed exotic weapons as two-handed for Power Attack. Now, you just have to convince your DM that you don't slice yourself to ribbons when attacking.

[Vhaidara]

That's what I get for just skimming to see if this was the thread I read that on.

Diopsid does have the advantage of ignoring TWF and MWF Dex requirements, though.

[Vedhin]

That's what I get for just skimming to see if this was the thread I read that on.

Diopsid does have the advantage of ignoring TWF and MWF Dex requirements, though.

Eh, a Thri-Kreen who rolls 11 for Dex only needs Gloves +2 for IMWF, and +4 for GMWF. A 13 leaves it at +2 Gloves for GMWF.

[Fax Celestis]

Eh, a Thri-Kreen who rolls 11 for Dex only needs Gloves +2 for IMWF, and +4 for GMWF. A 13 leaves it at +2 Gloves for GMWF.

Don't Thri-kreen get a dex bonus anyway?

[docnessuno]

I'm quite fond of dual-wielding Kusarigamas, reach weapons without minimum reach are always nice.

[Zanos]

Don't Thri-kreen get a dex bonus anyway?

Yes, but it also has RHD in addition to LA.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, but it also has RHD in addition to LA.

2 RHD, +1LA is pretty easy to stomach for what thri-kreen gives, particularly in a martial build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Monstrous Humanoids are pretty decent as far as RHD go, so yeah in some builds they are perfectly serviceable and according to some people you can drain the second HD and immediately exchange the other one for a class level.

[Jeff the Green]

Valenar double scimitar is a decent choice thanks to the Revenant Blade PrC, allowing you to treat both ends as two-handed weapons.

I also like greatsword + armor spikes, though except for feat conservation and style points greatsword + UAS is better because of SUAS and Snap Kick.