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Dysz
2014-03-03, 03:35 AM
I started a dungeon crawl/Campaign this weekend, going into it a little blind. I had no idea which system we were using or what others wanted to play, and we ended up creating characters and starting the adventure on the spot. It was a lot of fun, and we are by no means playing with super optimized characters, but it is my nature to want to improve my character the best I can mechanically and was a little overwhelmed with all the information and no preparation.

We started at level 2, with 1000g, and we actually got a bonus trait for actions in the campaign. We actually rolled our stats, rather than a point buy and I ended up picking a Human Cleric (Crusader Archetype), as we had no divine caster. I decided to focus on a tankish/melee cleric.

My stats are:
Human Crusader
Diety: Ragathiel
Leadership (Nobility) Domain
Lawful Good

Str: 17 (including +2 from human)
Dex: 11
Con: 12
Int: 11
Wis: 15
Cha: 13
(all the odd stats made me sad, but like I said we actually rolled our stats)

Traits:
Fate's Favored (+1 to luck bonuses)
Natural-Born Leader (this trait I am not tied to, but my character has ended up being the group's leader and if it goes to another campaign will have leadership from the domain -I remember seeing a 3 page book online with alternative uses for the leadership feat to having cohorts which I'd probably use instead, as I don't want really want a cohort)
Magical Lineage (Divine Favor) -- (one other party member joining us is secretly my mother and also has magical lineage)
Rich Parents (Bonus trait for Campaign roleplaying)

Drawback:
Overprotective

Feats:
Extend Spell
Selective Channeling
Armor Proficiency Heavy (from Crusader)

Skills: Heal, Knowledge (religion), Diplomacy.

Gear:
Banded Armor
(masterwork) Bastard Sword
Heavy Steel Shield

My party members consist of:
ME: A fairly young guy from a Noble family wanting to go on an adventure
A half-orc Gladiator (that I've arranged freedom for)- Fights with a net+trident
An Archer Ranger
A TWf (eventually) rogue with a pretty standard sneak attack focus
A dual Class Magician/Alchemist (will be leveling up both, so mostly low level stuff) pretending to be a wizard.
Soon to join us: A witch - focusing on debuffs rather than damage

My thoughts for my character was to mostly memorize buffing spells, and use them to heal when needed, in addition to running into melee and doing some damage and tank/helping the rogue to flank. Its early enough it the campaign to make some tweaks to what I've already done, though keeping the archetype/domain/stats is probably needed (I should be able to change out a feat or something like that.

I'm not sure what feats I should focus on next. This particular campaign will only go to level 7 or so, but if it goes well we might continue with the same characters for another one. My eventual ideas for feats were: Power attack, toughness, weapon focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization bastard sword, quicken spell, maybe some shield feats, maybe some healing feats(do they exist?) ----- but I honestly am not sure what to prioritize at this point.

Firechanter
2014-03-03, 08:49 AM
Okay, first off, the archetype looks rather shoddy to me, but then most Cleric archetypes are kinda downgrades. You lose a domain and 1 slot per level, and gain a very limited version of the good old Chain buffing. Oh and some bonus feats.
I mean, you will have to wait until level 11 to even "chain" Magic Vestment, and you can't chain GMW at all because it only applies to Touch spells.
TBH, in order to play a Crusader type, I'd rather go regular Cleric and maybe add a level of Fighter if I really need the hv armour and bonus feat. At the end of the day you have more spells and an extra domain.

Besides, a Cleric's primary ability is Wis. If I were you I'd really put the racial stat boost there. More Wis means more bonus spells means more buffs for your party.

Edit:

To elaborate on how poor the Crusader archetype is:

First, the bonus feats. Crusader gives 1 every five levels off a very limited list. And here's the catch: you get the equivalent of _four_ of those bonus feats with a single level of Fighter! Heavy Armour, Tower Shield, _All_ Martial weapons (worth much more than a single feat) and +1 BAB (better than Weapon Focus) PLUS the actual Fighter Bonus Feat you can select.

Secondly, your spell slots. You lose one spell slot per level. We'll get back to that when we look at your level 8 ACF.
Look at the feat "Echoing Spell". It's a +3 Metamagic that allows you to effectively get 2 spells for one slot.
Now imagine you have a party of four, and everyone wants a Magic Vestment from you.

As a Cleric(Crusader) 12 you can use your special and use 1 level 3 and 1 level 6 slot for it.
As a Cleric11/Fighter1 with Echoing Spell, you can use 1 level 3 slot for yourself, 1 level 6 slot for 2 friends and another level 3 slot for the 4th party member. And since you have 1 extra level 3 spell slot to begin with, it effectively costs you _nothing_. AND you still have the extra slots on level 1, 2, 4, and break even on 5 and 6 due to your multiclass.

Oh and let's not forget that for this net gain of MINUS three spell slots for nothing useful in return, you are ALSO giving up one of your Domains!

So... see how Crusader is a really, really crummy, cruddy, crappy archetype?

Dysz
2014-03-03, 04:33 PM
Indeed; I've already made some not maximum choices thus the purpose of my post. I'm trying to work with what I've got though, and I think it fits my character pretty well which I think is more important to me in general. I'd like to try to work with what I've got and make good choices going forward, and I'm not sure how to go about about - which is why I'm seeking advice.

One thing to note, however is the fight level would delay my spell progression - you mention I'd have as many spells at level 12, but wouldn't I have to wait one level longer to get higher spell level? I actually don't see how adding a fighter level would increase my BAB. Let's say I take it at level 3.

Level: BAB

Pure Cleric
1: Cleric 1: 0 BAB
2: Cleric 2: 1 BAB
3: Cleric 3: 2 BAB
4: Cleric 4: 3 BAB
5: Cleric 5: 3 BAB
6: Cleric 6: 4 BAB
7: Cleric 7: 5 BAB
8: Cleric 8: 6 BAB

Fighter /Cleric
1: Cleric 1: 0 BAB
2: Cleric 2: 1 BAB
3: Fighter 1:2 BAB
4: Cleric 3: 3 BAB
5: Cleric 4: 4 BAB
6: Cleric 5: 4 BAB
7: Cleric 6: 5 BAB
8: Cleric 7: 6 BAB

I see your point on getting 2 feats for fighter though: Heavy Armor proficiency + the bonus feat -- I'd be using a bastard sword and standard shield -- the the martial weapon profiency is not something I would count as a feat - and the BAB increase is only for level 5/9 etc.. Comparing at level 8. which is basically the extend of the dungeon crawl

Crusader:
Weapon Focus Bastard Sword
Legion's blessing
access to level 4 spells at level 7
Considered to be 1 level higher for cleric abilities
Going Beyond level 8: 3 combat feats (including access to specialization which I can't pick up normally)
Access to spells 1 level sooner

Fighter:
BAB increase for duration of level 5
Extra level 0,1,2 spell slot
Destructive Smite (From Destruction domain, the other domains for my Deity don't really seem useful)
Tower shield proficiency (think I might still use standard shield)
Going beyond level 8: higher BAB on 25% of levels while leveling
1 extra spell slot on all but newly acquired spell levels

Its something to seriously consider. I'm not sure if my DM will allow me to simply change my character in such a big way at this point, though which Is why I was looking at advice going forward.

Dysz
2014-03-04, 12:23 AM
So I don't really have the option to go back in time and my character is kinda of integrated into the story, so killing it off is not something I'm interested in. Any advice on redeeming this 'crummy, crappy, cruddy' character?

I can't really reroll the levels I already have, but its not too late to change a feat or something like that.

Arutema
2014-03-04, 12:57 AM
My advice would be to take a look at the Advanced Class Guide playtest and ask the GM's permission to convert over to a Warpriest, as that might suit your character's focus better.

Dysz
2014-03-04, 04:40 AM
My advice would be to take a look at the Advanced Class Guide playtest and ask the GM's permission to convert over to a Warpriest, as that might suit your character's focus better.

This seems about perfect, I like all the swift actions it provides (armor,weapon, using fervor to cast a spell, etc..). I don't know enough about the downsides (no high level cleric spells mainly) to know if that will completely wreck my character, but as I mentioned my campaign is not going that high anyway.

Sacred weapon confuses me a 'little' bit. Is it my understanding that when attacking with my sacred weapon (the bastard sword) I would effectively have full BAB all the time, sacred damage when it starts outpacing bastard sword damage all the time. With the extra bonuses (enhancement, flaming, etc..) being the thing that is a limited number of times a day?

As far as feats, I am still not sure what to focus on. The war-priest gets some bonus feats, and heavy armor/weapon focus for free, which definitely frees up some space. Feats I was considering were toughness, power attack ,weapon specalization, etc.... But what is there anything to help improve my healing/buffing ability/speed? quicken spell seems like an option, but not until higher level and with higher level spell slots not available Im not sure how good that will be.