Warped Morality for all!

[Zael Zuran]

This whole Miko arc is just getting depressing. The story's fine. Its the bizarre "Miko's just a misunderstood good girl" arguments that have me pulling out what's left of my hair.

The overall messages tend to boil down to:

The life of a liar (Any liar, and for any lie)
is worth less than the pride of a killer.

(sufficient pride and personal conviction outweighs any culpability. If one believes they are infallible, righteous, and just...They are! Convenient, no?)

Hurtful words are as evil as snuffing out another's life?

Tacky comments and childish behavior are tantamount to treason?

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?

edit - More appropriate punctuation added, to better express my confusion over the whole mess.

[TinSoldier]

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

[Isomenes]

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?


Better still: Delusional Good.

My hat's off to you, Mr. Burlew, for writing such an engaging story. May your raving fans (myself included) not take down the server in our zealotry. :smallbiggrin:

[Zael Zuran]

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?

Sorry for the late reply. Just got back.

What I'm trying to say is simply:

Oh good! More people in the world who feel that causing them to undergo unpleasant self reflection or doubt should be an offense punishable by death! We can never have too many of them! :smallsigh:

I should have known this thread was doomed from the start. "Paladins" have long been established as having difficulty with sarcasm.

[TreesOfDeath]

I'm confused. What are you trying to say?
Doesn't seem that confusing.
I believe "Miko is a bitch and the stuff thats happened to her or been said to her or the stuff that other people have said or done do not justify murder"

[Zael Zuran]

Better still: Delusional Good.

:smallbiggrin:

Chaotic Stupid is the absolutely most stereotypically inane representation of Chaos, but it is certainly Chaotic.

I offered Lawful Deranged because the bulk of the "good" being done by characters like Miko is in the whacko's own mind. Their actions on the other hand? Very consistent. Miko's actions have escalated, but her fundamental value system is the same as it has always been. Miko believes she knows better. Than Roy, than Hinjo, than Shojo, and possibly her own gods.

More emphasis is given on belief, ritual, and a personal interpretation of faith. So much emphasis, that Miko considers herself beyond reproach. She believes it, therefore it is.

Kind of like an altruistic sociopath, if you follow me.

"I know what's best for you, so just go with it," for example.

See her patronizing dismissal of anything Hinjo had to say, prior to her going off the deep end, for instance. From her perspective, Hinjo was just confused, like a small child, and Miko felt he could never understand without a similar "spiritual awakening."

[Zael Zuran]

Doesn't seem that confusing.
I believe "Miko is a bitch and the stuff thats happened to her or been said to her or the stuff that other people have said or done do not justify murder"

More or less.

I'm less apalled by Miko, than some of her fans. I actually find Miko to be a breath of fresh air as far as fallen paladins go. Its nice to see her slide being an ongoing process full of personal wrong turns rather than just waking up one day and declaring:

"Wow, what a rotten day! You know? I think I'll be evil now," ala the Darths.

Its some of the rampant apologists for her behavior that are just starting to get disturbing.

From the innocent pure comic fan: "I like the way she looks, therefore she can do no wrong. She's cool!" (The Belkar/Xykon school of thought)

To appealing to a niche D&D market: "I just like paladins, so n'yeh!"

All the Way To the "True Believers": "Hmm. I also feel that my feelings and personal inner dialogue are worth more than other people's lives. May I subscribe to your newsletter?"

Absolute certainty in moral issues has historically never fared well for the poor fools misfortunate enough to publicly disagree with those who are certain.

[spectheintro]

Zael, my hat is off to you.

[Iranon]

I'd be surprised if 10% of double-digit characters hadn't done anything that wouldn't get them justifiably killed in self-defence or executed for their crimes. And I'm not even counting the wholesale slaughter of sentient beings because they have green skin and fangs. The combination of DM fiat and sheer power is the main reason that rarely happens.

Belkar killing a guard in cold blood... and probably many people before.
Vaarsuvius must have blown up people under more suspect circumstances. Never mind fundamentally tampering with the natural order when s/he is bored. Elan mentioned that someone rigged a trial in his favour before - probably not a big thing but he got off free where the average commoner would probably have done hard time (and time in a fantasy setting can be pretty damn hard).

High-level characters are larger than life. If you read the Ilias... is your urge to fine Achilles for towing potentially hazardous cargo with his chariot? Would you sue the Greek Gods (or the Holy Ghost for that matter) for leaving women, some of them underage, with child and evading parental responsibility? Most classic or medieval heroes are oathbreakers, butchers, rapists or traitors. Dante put most of them in hell, and if you are the judgmental type you might think he has a point.

Not only are high-level characters powerful, they are eventually well-known and respected or feared. Everything that concerns them becomes a political rather than a legal matter... which only makes sense as they can realistically lay waste to a city by themselves.

[TinSoldier]

Doesn't seem that confusing.
I believe "Miko is a bitch and the stuff thats happened to her or been said to her or the stuff that other people have said or done do not justify murder"Okay. Just to clarify, as a Miko fan I have not at any point tried to justify her murder of Shojo. I may have compared it to other things though.


This whole Miko arc is just getting depressing. The story's fine. Its the bizarre "Miko's just a misunderstood good girl" arguments that have me pulling out what's left of my hair.

The overall messages tend to boil down to:

The life of a liar (Any liar, and for any lie)
is worth less than the pride of a killer.

(sufficient pride and personal conviction outweighs any culpability. If one believes they are infallible, righteous, and just...They are! Convenient, no?)

Hurtful words are as evil as snuffing out another's life?

Tacky comments and childish behavior are tantamount to treason?

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?

edit - More appropriate punctuation added, to better express my confusion over the whole mess.Fair points. I don't really have anything to add.

[Vulion]

Good sir, I believe you have summarized all that I have been trying to say. Good show.

[Lord Zentei]

This whole Miko arc is just getting depressing. The story's fine. Its the bizarre "Miko's just a misunderstood good girl" arguments that have me pulling out what's left of my hair.

The overall messages tend to boil down to:

The life of a liar (Any liar, and for any lie)
is worth less than the pride of a killer.

(sufficient pride and personal conviction outweighs any culpability. If one believes they are infallible, righteous, and just...They are! Convenient, no?)

Hurtful words are as evil as snuffing out another's life?

Tacky comments and childish behavior are tantamount to treason?

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?

edit - More appropriate punctuation added, to better express my confusion over the whole mess.

Errr... what? I must say that mostly all the Miko supporters are not, in fact, attempting to justify her murder of Shojo nor claiming that Roy's actions were on the same level as hers.

There are, however, a number of people claiming that Roy's behaviour was unjustified and/or less than optimal and that he could have reasoned with her. Though I don't fall into that group.

[AK-00]

Y'know, I gotta be honest. I really don't have any problem with anyone killing a lying, manipulative politician anytime they want, anywhere. You should get, like, a medal for that, or at least fifty bucks a head.

[Ampersand]

Okay. Just to clarify, as a Miko fan I have not at any point tried to justify her murder of Shojo.

Personally, I'd like to find these people so I can gawk at them. Are they hanging out with the snipes, Elvis, Bigfoot and Nessie?

[Piedmon_Sama]

Y'know, I gotta be honest. I really don't have any problem with anyone killing a lying, manipulative politician anytime they want, anywhere. You should get, like, a medal for that, or at least fifty bucks a head.

So you're more of a Naked Tyranny man, eh?

[PaladinBoy]

This whole Miko arc is just getting depressing. The story's fine. Its the bizarre "Miko's just a misunderstood good girl" arguments that have me pulling out what's left of my hair.

The overall messages tend to boil down to:

The life of a liar (Any liar, and for any lie)
is worth less than the pride of a killer.

(sufficient pride and personal conviction outweighs any culpability. If one believes they are infallible, righteous, and just...They are! Convenient, no?)

Hurtful words are as evil as snuffing out another's life?

Tacky comments and childish behavior are tantamount to treason?

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?

edit - More appropriate punctuation added, to better express my confusion over the whole mess.

Hmm. I agree with just about all of that. At least, if the point of those questions is to imply how stupid those points are.

I think that Roy's actions were less than desirable, from a good/evil point of view. Not that what he did was evil, just that it can be more good.

Roy's actions did make sense from a character/roleplaying point of view.

What Roy did didn't even approach what Miko did. Miko was evil. Roy wasn't.

[AK-00]

So you're more of a Naked Tyranny man, eh?

No, I'm just in favour of politicians who get caught doing that kind of thing being killed messily as examples to the others.

[Silverlocke980]

This whole Miko arc is just getting depressing. The story's fine. Its the bizarre "Miko's just a misunderstood good girl" arguments that have me pulling out what's left of my hair.

The overall messages tend to boil down to:

The life of a liar (Any liar, and for any lie)
is worth less than the pride of a killer.

(sufficient pride and personal conviction outweighs any culpability. If one believes they are infallible, righteous, and just...They are! Convenient, no?)

Hurtful words are as evil as snuffing out another's life?

Tacky comments and childish behavior are tantamount to treason?

Might this alignment trend be the long lost mirror of Chaotic Stupid? Lawful Deranged, perhaps?

edit - More appropriate punctuation added, to better express my confusion over the whole mess.


The side effect of living in a world where the comic book character Venom can be called a good guy without needing to add quotes.

Miko fans, I'm calling bull. And you know what word finishes that sentence.

Maybe all Roy needs is his own personal weird morality! Then he'd have fans all over the place!

[krossbow]

Alright, lets look this over:


Manipulative ruler routinely breaks laws, betrays the trust of those who follow him constantly, and then sends three prisoners to jail without trial for an undetermined amount of time, presumably till death (their innocence and guilt cannot weigh in on that, as they have not been tried), and frees a brutal murderer.

The highest ranking member of the guard finds out about this and executes the ruler, believing that his crimes damn him on the spot.


A random person with a sword, entrusted with an illegal mission, and possessing absolutely NO authority save his own force and the ability to kill people/beings, and traveling and indeed helping a known coldblooded murderer roam free while his victim lies cold dead then attacks her with the intent to kill.



Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.
________
Dating advice advice (http://www.love-help.org/dating-advice/)

[Silverlocke980]

Alright, lets look this over:


Manipulative ruler routinely breaks laws, betrays the trust of those who follow him constantly, and then sends three prisoners to jail without trial for an undetermined amount of time, presumably till death (their innocence and guilt cannot weigh in on that, as they have not been tried), and frees a brutal murderer.

The highest ranking member of the guard finds out about this and executes the ruler, believing that his crimes damn him on the spot.


A random person with a sword, entrusted with an illegal mission, and possessing absolutely NO authority save his own force and the ability to kill people/beings, and traveling and indeed helping a known coldblooded murderer roam free while his victim lies cold dead then attacks her with the intent to kill.



Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.

But the random person with a sword didn't get struck down by the Gods for his act.

Miko's a Paladin. Falling is a sure sign that she was, in fact, in the wrong, and Paladins serve the Gods. Sure, Shojo was a conniver, but he was doing it for his people, and the Paladins, upon seeing that the Gods themselves punished Miko for his death, would most assuredly give Roy a break.

The Gods judged Miko. What's Roy compared to that?

[Lord Zentei]

The side effect of living in a world where the comic book character Venom can be called a good guy without needing to add quotes.
Miko fans, I'm calling bull. And you know what word finishes that sentence.

Maybe all Roy needs is his own personal weird morality! Then he'd have fans all over the place!
I call strawman or hasty gereralization, at least, since I don't hold those positions. :smalltongue:


Alright, lets look this over:

<snippa>

Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.

My money would be on both, frankly, though one of them has not committed regicide, and is the lesser of criminals.

[Silverlocke980]

I call strawman or hasty gereralization, at least, since I don't hold those positions. :smalltongue:



My money would be on both, frankly, though one of them has not committed regicide, and is the lesser of criminals.

I do so wish people would stop throwing up "straw man! It's a straw man argument!" like philosophy majors at a drinking party....

[Lord Zentei]

I do so wish people would stop throwing up "straw man! It's a straw man argument!" like philosophy majors at a drinking party....

Why? :smallconfused:

If you are arguing against someone it is generally considered bad manners to misrepresent them. Besides, this is a debate forum.

[Demented]

It's not a debate forum. It's a discussion forum.

[Lord Zentei]

It's not a debate forum. It's a discussion forum.

Whatever. Strawmen are still bad manners.

[Piedmon_Sama]

No, I'm just in favour of politicians who get caught doing that kind of thing being killed messily as examples to the others.

Ah, so you're in it for the scandal! You dog.

[krossbow]

But the random person with a sword didn't get struck down by the Gods for his act.

Miko's a Paladin. Falling is a sure sign that she was, in fact, in the wrong, and Paladins serve the Gods. Sure, Shojo was a conniver, but he was doing it for his people, and the Paladins, upon seeing that the Gods themselves punished Miko for his death, would most assuredly give Roy a break.

The Gods judged Miko. What's Roy compared to that?


To fall as a paladin does not mean "Evil doer!" It means you are no longer of the purity demanded of a paladin. She was not "punished" in being smited, she had her powers removed. If they wanted her dead, she'd BE dead, she wouldn't be there to ponder what she'd done. Therefore, Roy is somewhat attempting to supercede the gods ruling and kill here himself.


Besides, I think that the gods were in a 8-4 vote against her, with the 4 gods facing the opposite directions from the other 8, which would indicate that 4 divine beings felt her justified.

[Greebo]

To a paladin, you don't think losing the title and powers of being a paladin is punishment?

[Lord Zentei]

To fall as a paladin does not mean "Evil doer!" It means you are no longer of the purity demanded of a paladin. She was not "punished" in being smited, she had her powers removed. If they wanted her dead, she'd BE dead, she wouldn't be there to ponder what she'd done. Therefore, Roy is somewhat attempting to supercede the gods ruling and kill here himself.

She is still dangerous even without her abilities. The gods are not expected to deal with any and all problems; though they can be expected to revoke granted powers.


Besides, I think that the gods were in a 8-4 vote against her, with the 4 gods facing the opposite directions from the other 8, which would indicate that 4 divine beings felt her justified.

Roy does not know that.

[krossbow]

to have the title removed does not give one free reing to chop their head off; that just means they are no longer "lawful good". In other words, what I mean is, she's neutral now; and neutral doesn't really justify just killing the person.


I would of let hinjo handle it; this is his jurisdiction, HIS CITY now, and roy lacks the authority for what he's doing.
________
Honda RA302 (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_RA302)

[Greebo]

*WE* don't know that. For all we know, unless Rich has spoken and I missed it, he just drew the gods that way cause he liked how it looked.

Until Rich speaks on that point, drawing any conclusions from the orientation of the animals is flawed.

[Greebo]

to have the title removed does not give one free reing to chop their head off; that just means they are no longer "lawful good". In other words, what I mean is, she's neutral now; and neutral doesn't really justify just killing the person.


I would of let hinjo handle it; this is his jurisdiction, HIS CITY now, and roy lacks the authority for what he's doing.
No, they're no longer Paladins. Commiting one heinous evil deed (and killing an unarmed defenseless man in a fit of rage IS heinously evil) does not make you wholly evil, or even neutral. A shift in alignment requires a consistent pattern of behavior contrary to that alignment.

Miko may still technically be LG, but she is no longer Paladin Fresh, if you get my meaning. Her sins weigh heavily upon her, and she can't be a Paladin while something like that is unresolved and unatoned.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's not a debate forum. It's a discussion forum.
So that means that you should let people lie about what you said and not bring it up?

[Lord Zentei]

to have the title removed does not give one free reing to chop their head off; that just means they are no longer "lawful good". In other words, what I mean is, she's neutral now; and neutral doesn't really justify just killing the person.

First off, it may be a matter of some debate whether a single act really merits an alignment change, particularly if it was done in misaprehension of the real facts.

However: the fact remains that she killed an unarmed old man who was her Lord. That is a crime. Regardless of her alignment.


I would of let hinjo handle it; this is his jurisdiction, HIS CITY now, and roy lacks the authority for what he's doing.

He is in shock at the time. Time is of the essence, and Miko has shown herself capable of jumping to conclusions and taking lethal action as a result. Waiting for Hinjo to snap out of it is a non-option.

[Greebo]

So that means that you should let people lie about what you said and not bring it up?
I'd be careful making accusations about lying. Someone can misrepresent you or your position without it being a deliberate falsehood. I think the OP of the thread was trying to sum up their interpretation of the general set of arguments being made that are pro-miko. That some of them don't apply to you don't make it personal with regards to you, nor do they make the summation a lie.

[Randalor]

Once again, for everyone who was saying that Roy tried to kill her: He tried to subdue her, because as far as he knew, she's still a major threat to his personal safty. Notice how Roy was trying to take her alive so she could be tried. Now notice how she didn't try to capture an old man, she flat out murdered him.

[Greebo]

Once again, for everyone who was saying that Roy tried to kill her: He tried to subdue her, because as far as he knew, she's still a major threat to his personal safty. Notice how Roy was trying to take her alive so she could be tried. Now notice how she didn't try to capture an old man, she flat out murdered him.
I'm curious, by what are we basing the conclusion that Roy was actually trying to subdue, vs. speculating that he MAY have been trying to subdue?

[Serenity]

1) The art shows him striking with the flat of his blade, and a subdual bruise on Miko.
2) Every other time the Order's gone up against non-monstrous opponents, i.e. the Linear Guild or the Bandit leaders, those opponents have ended up trussed up.

No good reason to label him as trying to summarily execute her as she did Shojo.

[PaladinBoy]

I would say that, as Roy sticks his greatsword right through Miko's torso, any argument for subdual damage is a little flawed. He may have been trying it at the start, but I think that last blow can hardly be considered "nonlethal".

[Serenity]

His first two strikes were subdual 'THUNKs'. She's a high level character so the impalement isn't going to kill her in one. After two heavy subdual strikes, on the other hand, it might have knocked her HP below her subdual total, knocking her out. Swinging deadly weapons is what subduing people looks like in D&D.

[Demented]

Admittedly, that blow occurred after she picked up her sword a second time. She picks her sword up after the smiting, then Roy knocks it out of her hand and she picks it up again! Crazy sword-lover.

Also, maybe I'm just one of those errant listeners, but as it is, I know that I would not have come to the conclusion that Roy was at fault for everything. Especially given what he says. One could always chalk that up to me being quite sensible in my current state, where the gods haven't just smote me down for misbehavior.

However, if his first priority were to force her surrender and detain her... That actually does sound slightly as if he had this planned out, as if he were expecting it to happen. Knowing all the information that I do, as a reader, I'd never fall for it, but from Miko's limited perspective, it could actually be a logical assumption. If Roy had approached this situation in a sensible and prepared fashion, that almost seems irrational given the apparent absurdity around him. It reaks of conspiracy.

Talk about warped morality.... Am I paranoid?

[berrew]

Alright, lets look this over:


Manipulative ruler routinely breaks laws, betrays the trust of those who follow him constantly, and then sends three prisoners to jail without trial for an undetermined amount of time, presumably till death (their innocence and guilt cannot weigh in on that, as they have not been tried), and frees a brutal murderer.OK, let's put this in perspective. This is not the President of the US, elected by the citizens of the nation. This is a ruler with completely unknown, but likely small, limits on his executive power (given the general mileau of Azure city, and the existance of Samurai). Where are you coming up with "regularly breaking laws" and "constantly betraying trust"? We know no such pattern, only a couple of examples. He is capable of deception, though.

Frankly, it seems to me that he is being depicted as a Neutral Good despot, who tends to use laws, but is not completely bound to them for unselfish goals (the "greater good"). The last time I checked, "not being Lawful Good" is hardly a capital offense in AD&D.
The highest ranking member of the guard finds out about this and executes the ruler, believing that his crimes damn him on the spot.She is not only a Paladin, but a SAMURAI. It is neither her place nor her duty to perform this action, as far as we know. Unless you have access to additional information about the code of the Sapphire guard that states that they can summarily execute the head of their order without trial, at the whim of the second-senior member if the order? I find this... unlikely... for a LG group of Pallies.

In addition, any samurai who would even consider striking down their leader, regardless of his actions, should be slain, or even worse, made Ronin.
A random person with a sword, entrusted with an illegal mission, and possessing absolutely NO authority save his own force and the ability to kill people/beings, and traveling and indeed helping a known coldblooded murderer roam free while his victim lies cold dead then attacks her with the intent to kill.He's not random. First, he's the PC and this is a strip centered around his character. That meta-issue beside, he is a CAREFULLY SELECTED individual, entrusted with a secret mission by the head of a country. Plus, Roy doesn't attack humans to kill them (unlike, say, Miko); they end up bound and gagged if at all possible, after all, he is LG.

Keep that in mind - Roy is LG. This is not a "real world" situation, with muddied and confusing moral quandries. This is AD&D, there there are nine real, absolute, concrete philosophies under which the entire multiverse is created and sustained. RB regularly draws on this odd worldview (cosmos-view?) and makes humorous observations about the absurdity of it all. Please remember that this is a comic strip given over to the foibles and follies of a bunch of clueless PCs wandering in the wilderness of AD&D, not a philosophical tract on real-world human moral issues.

Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.I like how you use "the law", ignoring that in AD&D the law is CONCRETE and divine, and it already made a judgement call.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'd be careful making accusations about lying. Someone can misrepresent you or your position without it being a deliberate falsehood. I think the OP of the thread was trying to sum up their interpretation of the general set of arguments being made that are pro-miko. That some of them don't apply to you don't make it personal with regards to you, nor do they make the summation a lie.
I contend that the summation describes almost no one. It's a strawman by virtue of conflating liking Miko as a character to approving of her action in killing Shojo.

[Mathgeek]

Elan mentioned that someone rigged a trial in his favour before - probably not a big thing but he got off free where the average commoner would probably have done hard time (and time in a fantasy setting can be pretty damn hard).


That trial rigged in Elan's favor? Yeah, that was the one for fundamentally weakening the universe by destroying the gate.

I agree with your guys' points though. Roy's actions are not nearly the same as Miko's. There's a subtle difference between chopping an unarmed old man in half and attacking his killer when both of you are armed. Plus, Miko fell for it! How can anyone possibly say, even if it isn't explicit, that what she did was right? She is supposed to serve the gods, and while she believed she was doing that, they told her in the most explicit way possible they disagreed with her.

Back to Roy, though, imagine that you are trying to save the world. Then, imagine that you have an ally who's aid is essential to succeed. Then, someone that you hate cuts him in two in a delusional rage. What would you do? Don't say that you would be concerned for her feelings, because when you have an armed lunatic that has just killed one person and you're next on her hit list, that is not your first priority.

[neriana]

Personally, I'd like to find these people so I can gawk at them. Are they hanging out with the snipes, Elvis, Bigfoot and Nessie?
I think they got lost in the Bermuda Triangle and blew to bits in a hurricane, as they were made completely of straw.

[Silverlocke980]

To fall as a paladin does not mean "Evil doer!" It means you are no longer of the purity demanded of a paladin. She was not "punished" in being smited, she had her powers removed. If they wanted her dead, she'd BE dead, she wouldn't be there to ponder what she'd done. Therefore, Roy is somewhat attempting to supercede the gods ruling and kill here himself.


Besides, I think that the gods were in a 8-4 vote against her, with the 4 gods facing the opposite directions from the other 8, which would indicate that 4 divine beings felt her justified.

Actually, yeah... a paladin falling does mean Evil-doer. Why else would you Fall? Even if it's for one act, it's still Evil-doing.

I wouldn't use the gods thing... it's unjustified fan-thought, at the moment, and not something I'd base anything on.

Besides, who were the four who believed it justified? I'm curious....

[Demented]

Rabbit, Rooster, Monkey, and Snake.

Though, it's doubtful that their looking in the opposite direction means they disagree. In fact, if there's any evidence for a god disagreeing with the vote, it's Pig. Seriously, he's got those parenthetical worry marks. Wuzzat about?

[Renegade Paladin]

Actually, yeah... a paladin falling does mean Evil-doer. Why else would you Fall?
A gross violation of the Code, which does not necessarily mean an evil act.

[krossbow]

OK, let's put this in perspective. This is not the President of the US, elected by the citizens of the nation. This is a ruler with completely unknown, but likely small, limits on his executive power (given the general mileau of Azure city, and the existance of Samurai). Where are you coming up with "regularly breaking laws" and "constantly betraying trust"? We know no such pattern, only a couple of examples. He is capable of deception, though.


By the fact that Hinjo was about to haul Shojo's butt off to be imprisoned and tried by the other officials of the state, yeah, I'd view him as having very DEFINITE restraints. Shojo confessed right before Hinjo (outside the door) that he had been routinely doing multiple acts expressedly forbidden by the paladin's of the city. I.E., that amounts to treasonous behavious.



Frankly, it seems to me that he is being depicted as a Neutral Good despot, who tends to use laws, but is not completely bound to them for unselfish goals (the "greater good"). The last time I checked, "not being Lawful Good" is hardly a capital offense in AD&D.She is not only a Paladin, but a SAMURAI. It is neither her place nor her duty to perform this action, as far as we know. Unless you have access to additional information about the code of the Sapphire guard that states that they can summarily execute the head of their order without trial, at the whim of the second-senior member if the order? I find this... unlikely... for a LG group of Pallies.

Shojo was about to be taken away to be tried. Therefore, he was about to be relieved of powers. He was no longer her lord, nor the lord of anyone. He had been deposed by hinjo per the law. Miko's authority on killing him is up in the air, as Shojo had MULTIPLE assasination attempts on him by high ranking officials, thus indicating that in this city, it is not only considered logical, but a NORMAL way to right the wrongs of a ruler by killing him.




In addition, any samurai who would even consider striking down their leader, regardless of his actions, should be slain, or even worse, made Ronin.He's not random. First, he's the PC and this is a strip centered around his character. That meta-issue beside, he is a CAREFULLY SELECTED individual, entrusted with a secret mission by the head of a country. Plus, Roy doesn't attack humans to kill them (unlike, say, Miko); they end up bound and gagged if at all possible, after all, he is LG.


Keep that in mind - Roy is LG. This is not a "real world" situation, with muddied and confusing moral quandries. This is AD&D, there there are nine real, absolute, concrete philosophies under which the entire multiverse is created and sustained. RB regularly draws on this odd worldview (cosmos-view?) and makes humorous observations about the absurdity of it all. Please remember that this is a comic strip given over to the foibles and follies of a bunch of clueless PCs wandering in the wilderness of AD&D, not a philosophical tract on real-world human moral issues.
I like how you use "the law", ignoring that in AD&D the law is CONCRETE and divine, and it already made a judgement call.



I REPEAT: Roy, in saphire city, IS JUST A RANDOM GUY WITH A SWORD. In saphire city, he has no standing, no authority, he isn't even a CITIZEN. Heck, given what shojo just revealed, he's a wanted criminal (aiding in treasonous crimes, aiding and abbetting a known murderer, violating sacred laws against interfering in the gates, ect.) in this city. He has no jurisdiction by the people of this city to do ANYTHING.


simply because roy is a PC does NOT give him the right to go around being the law. In a D&D campaing, go into a city and declare "Hello people! I am a PC! Moreover, I am LAWFUL GOOD. Therefore, I am allowed to do anything I want! LOL!"

Being a PC or high level fighter never bestows judicial powers on someone, so roy IS just a random dude with a sword here.
________
WEBSITE HOST (http://hostndesign.com)

[Lord Zentei]

Besides, who were the four who believed it justified? I'm curious....

Going by the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html), it has to be Snake, Monkey, Cockrel and Rabbit.

If the vote was divided, that is, and they are not just facing in the opposite direction for random and/or artistic reasons.

[Krellen]

A gross violation of the Code, which does not necessarily mean an evil act.
Which is moot, because Miko's murder of Shojo was, unequiviably, evil.

And actually, according to the SRD, the only explicitly stated thing that causes a Paladin to lose powers - aside from becoming non-Lawful Good - is willfully committing an Evil act. (Which is to say one can commit an evil act and remain good, but a Paladin that does it stops being a Paladin anyway.) Violating the Code does not hold any explicit penalties.

The fact that Miko lost her powers for the murder proves it was evil - whether or not it was evil enough to change her alignment.

[Ampersand]

I don't think anyone seriously argues that killing Shojo wasn't evil. The crux of the disagreement at this point is whether or not Miko is redeemable and/or whether or not she would have fallen into her old patterns of thinking had Roy left her to her own devices.

[Seraph]

illegal mission

you fail. tencharacterlimit

[Talyn]

Seraph: That was rude. Also, rather incoherent.

Regarding the "killing Shojo and being evil," I'd like to remind everyone that Miko was not Evil, she was Wrong. As in, mistaken. If her theory of what happened was correct, which we know it wasn't, then killing Shojo might have been harsh, but it also would have been allowable by her Code and not an Evil act. Many of her fans (myself included), while agreeing that Miko was wrong, are able to see things from her perspective and perhaps understand WHY she was able to make those mistakes.

[Renegade Paladin]

Which is moot, because Miko's murder of Shojo was, unequiviably, evil.

And actually, according to the SRD, the only explicitly stated thing that causes a Paladin to lose powers - aside from becoming non-Lawful Good - is willfully committing an Evil act. (Which is to say one can commit an evil act and remain good, but a Paladin that does it stops being a Paladin anyway.) Violating the Code does not hold any explicit penalties.

The fact that Miko lost her powers for the murder proves it was evil - whether or not it was evil enough to change her alignment.

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).
You were saying?

I'm not disputing that killing Shojo was an evil act, but he asked why else you would fall, and I answered.

[Krellen]

No, even if Miko was right, killing Shojo was Evil. It was unnecessary, cruel, and malicious. She wanted him dead because he had betrayed her; imprisoning him would have had the exact same effect for the good of the city, except he'd be less murdered. There were alternatives to the killing that had the same results, and thus the killing was not only wrong, it was Evil.


You were saying?
Ah, silly me. I looked under "Code of Conduct", not "Ex-Paladins". I conceed, sir.

[berrew]

Shojo was about to be taken away to be tried. Therefore, he was about to be relieved of powers. He was no longer her lord, nor the lord of anyone. He had been deposed by hinjo per the law.The outcome of the trial is not known. In fact, you and I don't even know the applicable laws, or restraints placed on him. In fact, you and I don't know whether he remains the titular lord or not. We don't know if he can regain his title, or be forever relegated to cleaning the kitchen. We don't know.
Miko's authority on killing him is up in the air, as Shojo had MULTIPLE assasination attempts on him by high ranking officials, thus indicating that in this city, it is not only considered logical, but a NORMAL way to right the wrongs of a ruler by killing him.If murders happened every day in Azure city (probable, given the size of the city), your logic would dicatate that doing so was a NORMAL way to resolve conflicts, and perfectly justifiable based on "precidence". The fact that an act is repeated does not make it normal, or right, or acceptable. It most *certainly* does not make it a "good" act in the eyes of the gods.

I REPEAT: Roy, in saphire city, IS JUST A RANDOM GUY WITH A SWORD. In saphire city, he has no standing, no authority, he isn't even a CITIZEN. Heck, given what shojo just revealed, he's a wanted criminal (aiding in treasonous crimes, aiding and abbetting a known murderer, violating sacred laws against interfering in the gates, ect.) in this city. He has no jurisdiction by the people of this city to do ANYTHING.

simply because roy is a PC does NOT give him the right to go around being the law. In a D&D campaing, go into a city and declare "Hello people! I am a PC! Moreover, I am LAWFUL GOOD. Therefore, I am allowed to do anything I want! LOL!"Close. That's the advantage of being a PC. In a number of ways, the entire multiverse rotates around you. That's part of the irony imbedded in the comic strip, and why the PCs in OoTS are *always* given odd latitude regarding events in an otherwise logically cohesive world.

Again, this is not some moral tale about real life human woes - it's about a band of PCs bumbling through an RPG adventure. Don't try to draw too many ties in with real life once you start dealing with the actual OoTS. The protagonists will (and have) performed a lot of actions that fall into the "we are PCs" category. Part of the dynamic tension in the strip is watching the world adjust to the fact that the PCs are its heroes, regardless of their abilities or competance.

Figuring out NPC alignments, and their interrelations is all doable and makes sense, but as soon as PCs enter the picture, the following mantra should run in the back of your brain: "the world was expressly created for these characters' enjoyment". Even when the PCs are acting like typical characters in a novel, they aren't, not really. The fourth wall is almost a nonentity in this strip.

[Seraph]

Seraph: That was rude. Also, rather incoherent.

I'm sorry, but a mission to save the entire world is rather above laws, and I'm reasonably sure that krossbow knows this pretty well.

[Lord Zentei]

No, even if Miko was right, killing Shojo was Evil. It was unnecessary, cruel, and malicious. She wanted him dead because he had betrayed her; imprisoning him would have had the exact same effect for the good of the city, except he'd be less murdered. There were alternatives to the killing that had the same results, and thus the killing was not only wrong, it was Evil.

Killing Shojo was certainly an evil act, though I still contend that one act is not enough to force an alignment change. It is unquestionably a loss-of-paladin thing, though.

Whether she really becomes out-and-out evil is going to be determined in what follows - not just in the immediate aftermath, but after the adrenaline has worn off and she plans her next move - assuming that she survives, that is.

[arch]

Alright, lets look this over:

Manipulative ruler routinely breaks laws, betrays the trust of those who follow him constantly, and then sends three prisoners to jail without trial for an undetermined amount of time, presumably till death (their innocence and guilt cannot weigh in on that, as they have not been tried), and frees a brutal murderer.

The highest ranking member of the guard finds out about this and executes the ruler, believing that his crimes damn him on the spot.

A random person with a sword, entrusted with an illegal mission, and possessing absolutely NO authority save his own force and the ability to kill people/beings, and traveling and indeed helping a known coldblooded murderer roam free while his victim lies cold dead then attacks her with the intent to kill.

Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.

The problem with this assessment is that it you're trying to take an objective view of a subjective story. It's not the Story of Azure City, or Miko's Tale, it's the Order of the Stick. Roy isn't a random person, he's our leading man. His actions, moreso than any of the members of the OOTS, define the story and its arc for us. He's the leader of the group, his father started him on the Xykon quest, his weapon was the basis for the whole starmetal side-quest, and his father AGAIN was the impetus behind the entire Miko/Azure City story.

I can understand people enjoying a character like Miko and wanting to see her in more strips, but trying to define the story in terms of HER character is just silly.

EDIT: Er, not that you, krossbow, were trying to do that, just reacting to the general pro-Miko, anti-Roy tone on the forum in general. ;-)

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Alright, lets look this over:


Manipulative ruler routinely breaks laws, betrays the trust of those who follow him constantly, and then sends three prisoners to jail without trial for an undetermined amount of time, presumably till death (their innocence and guilt cannot weigh in on that, as they have not been tried), and frees a brutal murderer.

The highest ranking member of the guard finds out about this and executes the ruler, believing that his crimes damn him on the spot.


A random person with a sword, entrusted with an illegal mission, and possessing absolutely NO authority save his own force and the ability to kill people/beings, and traveling and indeed helping a known coldblooded murderer roam free while his victim lies cold dead then attacks her with the intent to kill.



Now then: In the eyes of the law, which of these two is going to jail? My money would be on roy.

Both of them would. High as the rank may be, the guard doesn't have the right to kill someone just because she thinks he deserves it. She's doing at least the same she just claimed to be evil and punishable with death.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and I don't recall Miko being any higher than the regular city paladins.

[krossbow]

you fail. tencharacterlimit




right; yeah, totally disregarding the people in charge of this area a soverignty. The saphire guard is in control of the area; and the paladins currently forbid messing around with gates. Whethr or not you think their laws are just does not mean they can be ignore. Just as an american who goes and spraypaints in another country can be caned, Roy can be convicted of this. What the government of the city says goes as long as he's their.



A mission to save the world is important; but keep in mind that the paladins view their mission as the same. In their minds, the laws regarding the gate are equally important in keeping the world. Just as some people view it better to not intervene against petty dictators seeking nuclear weapons, the saphire guard also believes that it is not allowable for people to go mess with the gates personally.






I am not attempting to mitigate anything miko has done or the importance of the gates in the current time. I HOWEVER am reminding people that the people ruling this area have multiple laws that roy and shojo broke.

From an objective, NEUTRAL perspective, as law must be blind, then Roy is the one more in the wrong. However, there are multiple mitigating factors which would very rarely be allowed in court here.

Therefore, NO I do not fail, as Roy's mission IS ILLEGAL IN SAPHIRE CITY.




I realize people that this is a story of the PC's, and that we therefore knwo what Roy is doing; I am just pointing out how it looks from teh people in charges view.




And who knows? They could be right. I remember an episode of stargate in which the team was convinced that the people they had met were a bunch of defenseless holistic people, foolishly clinging to the belief that they could simply remain hidden and prevent deaths on both sides. Because of this, they spent the entire episode going behind their back and setting up and ambush, as everything pointed towards them being about to be slaughtered.


however, at the end, the holistic people they met stopped the fighting of both sides and revealed to the team that they had a massive advanced city and were not defensefless.





Just because the protagonists believe does not always mean it is true.








http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html ^ above
she states that she is the highest ranking one, though that is from miko, so who can say? Either way, I do agree with your assessment that both would go to jail though.

I'm just attempting to hammer home the idea that Roy is also in just as much legal trouble here, since that has been largely overlooked.

[okpokalypse]

I REPEAT: Roy, in saphire city, IS JUST A RANDOM GUY WITH A SWORD. In saphire city, he has no standing, no authority, he isn't even a CITIZEN. Heck, given what shojo just revealed, he's a wanted criminal (aiding in treasonous crimes, aiding and abbetting a known murderer, violating sacred laws against interfering in the gates, ect.) in this city. He has no jurisdiction by the people of this city to do ANYTHING.

Actually, he has complete authority - but no jurisdiction. He's a covert op - just like many are in government agencies. If caught, their allegience will be disavowed, but he's still working FOR the government.

However, one thing I'd like to point out about the "Laws of Azure City."

The crime Roy (and the OotS) committed which brought them there was not perpetrated within the confines of Azure City or it's surrounding holdings. He was also neither a citizen of Azure City or working in affiliation with at the time. Therefore, Miko capturing Roy, any way you slice it, was kidnapping and false imprisonment. Unless you're a Tyranny, you do not execute your laws on a global scale by imprisoning people outside your borders and dragging them back. Especially Non-Citizens.

As for Roy's attack on Miko, he's working for Shojo, who was just murdered by Miko. His allegience is to do what's right on a larger scale than what Miko just committed Regicide for. And because Miko officially announced herself as "in Charge" - she's effectively turned Azure City into a defacto Tyranny until she's overthrown. With Xykon en route - attacking her is the right thing to do to get her contained and all Hinjo to repair the damage.