All the Roy bashing...

[dunbar]

I can't believe how many people are saying that Roy acted improperly in attacking Miko. He just witnessed a person murder an innocent man in cold blood! Then the Gods themselves weighed in on how heinous the crime was.

The ONLY reason I can think of that people would think that Roy is acting improperly (some even say evil!) is because of how they feel about Miko. Or perhaps because of the childish insults he delivers to her while kicking her murdering ass.

In what possible interpretation of the DnD universe is attacking a murderer on sight the wrong action? There is no misinterpretation here, no misunderstanding on Roys part, in fact not even the possibility that all is not what it seems: the Gods themselves have rendered a verdict on Miko's actions.

And it really is only because people like Miko. Take this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0011.html)

Here Roy is slaughtering goblins who were asleep. Simply because they were in Xykon's dungeon. They had done nothing he knows of to deserve death, but no one cares that he cuts their heads off while they are sleeping.

Lay a hand on your precious Miko and suddenly he's the devil. If you can't attack a murderer whom who just witnessed kill her victim in cold blood and who is then denounced by the gods and still remain a good character...then no adventurer can be of good alignment, because if you can't attack a murderer, who can you attack?

[Setra]

Don't blame all people who like Miko.

I for one found no true fault in his actions.

Edit: On another note, the only character I have any real dislike for.. is Thog.

[Skyserpent]

Yeah, I mean, sure I like Miko, but don't group us all together. I think Roy is solving the problem the best way he knows how, I mean she DID just kill Shojo in cold blood, though stabbing her while she was confused and panicky was probably a less than great idea there are plenty of options that are worse.

[TinSoldier]

Killing goblins in their sleep is wrong, too. (Note the comic in my sig).

Actually, one point: Miko would never kill anything in their sleep. Hmm.

[Porthos]

I don't particularly like Miko, and I think that Roy's actions were..... unwise.

Don't lump all of the people who think that Roy might have acted hastily into one group of people. :smallbiggrin:

[teratorn]

It's not the going after her that bothers me. Just the insults, they were too much even for Roy.

On the other hand I would prefer he would had avoid it: Redcloack/Xykon, MITD, the Gods, then Roy. Too many beatings even for Miko.

[Hazel Firewolf]

I can't stand Miko. She followed the laws with no compassion. The laws were made to give compassion, especially those who needed protection. I have never seen a strip where Miko was actually protecting someone.

(Don't mind me being a geek here) Being Neutral good myself, I recognize that laws are there to prevent a state of nature, but laws can also oppress people and be manipulated *cough* lawful evil*

Roy is justified, she's a nutjob that needs to be put down.

[Demented]

Redcloak/Xykon's insults meant nothing to Miko, save for Redcloak's comparing her to a Lich. The MitD was almost respectful. The gods were, well, abrupt. Roy has been the only one to go out of his way to insult Miko, and she only listened to him once, many strips ago.

[Zeku]

I think it's safe to assume his intent is to incapacitate her. Roy is Roy. A bit hypocritical, condescending, and judgemental, just like every other human being. He has emotional maturity, and isn't doing anything 'evil.'

Too many people are getting polarized in their mind about Miko and her actions.

The only true morality, in my opinion, is concern for others. Frankly, all of the OOTS characters, good or evil, are lacking somewhat in this department, just like normal human beings.


The worst thing you can do at this point is take all of this so seriously you judge a character without knowing all of the facts. From there, the next step is doubting the validity of the author's original intent for the characters, which is self-destructive and silly, the kind of overwrought zealotry worthy of Miko.

[teratorn]

Redcloak/Xykon's insults meant nothing to Miko, save for Redcloak's comparing her to a Lich. The MitD was almost respectful. The gods were, well, abrupt. Roy has been the only one to go out of his way to insult Miko, and she only listened to him once, many strips ago.

I was talking about actual beatings, not insults. Even the gods thing was painful.

[Scorpion13]

I have to agree.

The only, and I mean only, reason why anyone is ragging on Roy is because he's trying to hurt the precious Miko.

I especially like "She just fell from being a paladin, Roy should have stood back and let her have a moment, and maybe let her realize what she had done."

Uh, WTF? In what world does something like that happen? In no game I have ever played, no book I have ever read, no movie have I ever seen, no real life incidence has that ever been the case. At what point does any LG hero just sit back and coddle the person who killed an innocent old man who was trying to help save the world. (And the next person who goes off about how bad Shojo was is gonna make me barf. The gods themselves, you know, the ones who actually would know the truth of whether or not Shojo was a bad guy or not? They were the ones who smacked Miko down so hard.)

Face it: if anyone else had done what Miko had, everybody would be cheering on Roy. Its a blatant double standard.

Im honestly surprised at how many people support Miko's delusion that its everyone elses fault for her mistakes, and somehow, Miko deserves no balme for he own actions.

[teratorn]

The only, and I mean only, reason why anyone is ragging on Roy is because he's trying to hurt the precious Miko.


It seems you are wrong.

There is a poll about that. Even among Miko haters less than half agree Roy did the right thing. In the neutral group only about one third. About the same amount think Roy was just being Roy or that he messed things up. People's opinions are not so tied to liking or hating Miko as one may think.

[Scorpion13]

It seems you are wrong.

There is a poll about that. Even among Miko haters less than half agree Roy did the right thing. In the neutral group only about one third. About the same amount think Roy was just being Roy or that he messed things up. People's opinions are not so tied to liking or hating Miko as one may think.

Which poll are you refering to? Because I just saw one that had the choice " Miko meh-Roy Did the Right thing" in the lead.

[Setra]

Which poll are you refering to? Because I just saw one that had the choice " Miko meh-Roy Did the Right thing" in the lead.

The thing I noticed was this

Miko Fan Clubber -- Roy really messed up (possible alignment issue) 2

Miko meh -- Roy really messed up (possible alignment issue) 3

[Ryshan Ynrith]

Mostly, it's out of sympathy for Miko, who was (and indeed rigidly defined herself as) a shining force for good and has had her potential and likely future spoiled. She's responsible for her actions, of course, and her mounting paranoia most likely created this situation, but I pity her. Miko was zealously devout, trying to be the best paladin in service to all, and so had few friends because she (perhaps unreasonably) expected everyone to live up to her standards.

She was sent away alone, to fight against evil in its own lands, presumably alone. With no one to help her, she relied exclusively on her own judgment, given to her by the 12 Gods. It was this very trait that allowed her to connect the dots incorrectly and find Shojo to be a traitor, with the OoTS in collusion.

So yes, I do realize Miko is in the wrong in this instance. However, I find the loss of a paladin to be something to grieve, not something to cheer on inanely. In particular, I find Belkar's fanbase to be both puzzling and slightly revolting-just because he's funny, they wanted an evil psychotic halfling to defeat a powerful force for good.

Anyway, I'm going to get some sleep.

[teratorn]

Which poll are you refering to? Because I just saw one that had the choice " Miko meh-Roy Did the Right thing" in the lead.

Miko meh
Right 16
just Roy 11
Best of him 15
messed 3

Right is less than 50%, about 1/3 only. And almost no one is questioning his alignement. I still think he is LG, a jerk but a LG jerk. He's being himself, although too much of himself.

Miko lovers
Right 3
just roy 6
best of him 7
messed 2

Numbers are smaller but there is a split there. Same thing for Miko haters (10 6 6 1).


It has something to do with Miko but not that much. And almost no one thinks his alignmnent should change.

[Scorpion13]

The fact that there is even that much of a split at all shows me how dedicated people are to excusing the most heinous of actions by Miko in some way or another.

And Roy is a jerk, huh. Id like to hear the reasoning behind that one.

[Setra]

The fact that there is even that much of a split at all shows me how dedicated people are to excusing the most heinous of actions by Miko in some way or another.

And Roy is a jerk, huh. Id like to hear the reasoning behind that one.

Many people thought Roy was a jerk even before #200. Mostly because of his behavior towards Elan I believe.

Personally I could care less, I'm getting more and more apathetic.

[Void_Form]

I think Roy's actions were unwise, but only because of the perspective I have as a reader. It is tempting to judge characters when you are not them and also have the luxury of time and knowledge. I've had to remind myself to resist the temptation when DM'ing. I like Miko as a character (a great example of a well-crafted NPC), but would despise her if I was a PC in the campaign.

Roy I like as character because his behavior is so true to actually PC's. Very few PC's I know would suddenly forget all that an NPC has done to them and their group and turn the other cheek.

Roy's insults were harsh, but not unexpected. Giving the tension that has been built up between the characters, I would be surprised if Roy didn't let loose.

Roy comes across as human, and as PC, that should expected. He is justified in his actions in my opinion. His words there potray the barely concealed rage of a player finally able to confront a major antagonist. I don't agree with his words, but I'm not the character. I will save the judgements of Roy's character to Almighty Rich and Roy's player. (incidentally, also Almighty Rich)

In summary, I defend Roy's actions on the basis of his character and on Miko's actions both prior and recent. I dislike his words, but that is opinion. I leave all other judgements of Roy to those who hold them.

Wuzzah.

[teratorn]

The fact that there is even that much of a split at all shows me how dedicated people are to excusing the most heinous of actions by Miko in some way or another.

And Roy is a jerk, huh. Id like to hear the reasoning behind that one.

The split is not about saying he was wrong, just that he let himself go. And Miko haters have similiar splits.

The jerk thing is not only about Miko. He abandoned Elan, he likes to insult him and doesn't care much for others. It's his major character flaw. This time he was particularly mean, not just trash talk because he didn't need it. I didn't like but I learned in the forums that it's not considered a big deal so I stepped down a bit on my impression, I'm just a bit old fashioned.

[Demented]

Polls are hardly valid evidence.
Not to mention, that poll doesn't even deal with the subject at hand.
That poll isn't designed to question whether people thought "Roy is wrong because he is trying to hurt Miko".
It's designed to poll what the popular opinion is on whether Roy is being "proper" in attacking Miko.

There's no way to get that data from that poll.
One could try, by making certain assumptions about the three groups, but it's not valid. It's not even sufficient for an opinion on an internet forum.

[FullPlateJacket]

The split is not about saying he was wrong, just that he let himself go. And Miko haters have similiar splits.

The jerk thing is not only about Miko. He abandoned Elan, he likes to insult him and doesn't care much for others. It's his major character flaw. This time he was particularly mean, not just trash talk because he didn't need it. I didn't like but I learned in the forums that it's not considered a big deal so I stepped down a bit on my impression, I'm just a bit old fashioned.

The way I see Roy, he cares about other people, but he's convinced himself that he doesn't. Because of this, he rarely shows that he cares. I mean, he defended Belkar from Miko back at the trial, and in the end he did go back and rescue Elan (and the rest of the party). There are other instances of him showing compassion for others as well. (Or one could say that his insults and sarcastic comments are the way he shows how much he cares :smalltongue:)

Either way, I think that Roy isn't really a jerk, he just seems like it on the outside. Perhaps I'm just sympathetic with him because he reminds me a litte of myself, but I think that he doesn't deserve to be bashed.

[Setra]

I don't think any character really deserves to be bashed, each of them bring something to the comic in theor own way.


It's possible to think Roy handled this particular situation poorly without hating him (or loving Miko). Seriously, it is. It's easy! In fact, it's a good sign of maturity when you're willing to see your favorite characters make mistakes. If they were perfect, they wouldn't be very realistic, after all. And of course, all of the above can also be said for Miko.

Again. Liking a character is not the same thing as believing they are always right. Disliking them does not mean they are always wrong. They are separate issues.
Agreed.

[War]

It's possible to think Roy handled this particular situation poorly without hating him (or loving Miko). Seriously, it is. It's easy! In fact, it's a good sign of maturity when you're willing to see your favorite characters make mistakes. If they were perfect, they wouldn't be very realistic, after all. And of course, all of the above can also be said for Miko.

Again. Liking a character is not the same thing as believing they are always right. Disliking them does not mean they are always wrong. They are separate issues.

[hanzo66]

Roy defended Belkar and Elan out of an obligatory Team Loyalty, even though he knows that Belkar is loyal only to himself. He went back for Elan that time due to having a guilty conscience, realizing that a true Lawful Good would not abandon his teammates, no matter how troublesome or how much they piss one off.

[tadfoal]

I for one think Roy was being, well... Roy. Albeit Roy who's finally been given that little poke off the very, very tall cliff that he's been perched on since the OotS were formed (and he met Annoying Elan. As opposed to Dashing Elan.)

Normally, I would presume, there would be a trial and blah blah for Miko. However, since she killed the guy in charge, there isn't really anyone to stand in for him yet. Hinjo may have a few choice words once he recovers.

Of course, for the people who say 'Roy shouldnt have attacked her! There are more peaceful ways!' etcetera, would the congregation please note what Miko says, very very soon after she falls?

:miko: "YOU! Of course! It's all YOUR fault! You tricked me! You staged all this so that I would strike down my Lord!"

I'm fairly sure Miko would've decided it on her own and MADE Roy attack her out of self defence, if he hadn't hit first.

Also is interesting how fast Shinjo went from 'my Lord' to 'traitor!' and back to 'my Lord' again. Gotta admire how fast Miko's brain switched them... even if she lacks other mental qualities... like self-doubt.

Roy was being Roy over-the-edge, Miko was being her it's-your-fault! self. Guess what? They were being themselves *le gasp!*

[Pax_Chi]

I have to agree with Void Form.

Was Roy's actions the wisest possible ones he could have taken at that time? No, not really.

Were they the actions most true to his character, considering someone that he hated just did something he finds morally reprehensible to a defenseless person trying to save the planet from evil, all while claiming that he was an agent of evil? Oh yes.

Roy's not Superman or a Paladin, and what's more, he never claimed to be. He's just a guy who tries to do the best he can at the time, and when at the time it looks like a certain ex-Paladin needs a butt kicking, well, he's going to do his best.

[CrossP]

If Roy was a cop, he'd be perfectly justified in shooting Miko in the face.

Hinjo might have paused first. Hinjo might have offered the chance for surrender. Hinjo might use nonlethal force, and Hinjo might not have slung insults.

Roy has never been the shiniest example of LG, though. Roy HATES Miko, and Roy ALWAYS insults people while he fights. Roy is not some shiny paladin. He's a professional warrior.

[Ampersand]

Of course, for the people who say 'Roy shouldnt have attacked her! There are more peaceful ways!' etcetera, would the congregation please note what Miko says, very very soon after she falls?

:miko: "YOU! Of course! It's all YOUR fault! You tricked me! You staged all this so that I would strike down my Lord!"

That's also very very soon after she gets sucker slashed by Roy.


I'm fairly sure Miko would've decided it on her own and MADE Roy attack her out of self defence, if he hadn't hit first.

Possible. But, given that she was in the middle of the first moment of self-doubt we've ever seen out of her, it's equally likely she would have come to another conclusion all together.

That said, do I blame Roy for attacking, or find it out of character? No. My criticism of Roy in this regard stems from, as a person who not only likes to constantly remind himself, everyone around him, and us as readers how high his Intelligence score is, and as someone who's claimed moral superiority (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) to Miko, the actions he ended up taking when given the chance to actually prove that he's better than she is make him a hypocrite. Roy decides to take justice into his own hands and carry out a death sentence on his own...precisely what Miko did approximentally two rounds earlier. How can he reconcile claiming moral high ground on her when he stoops to her methods, which had just been rather dramatically demonstrated to be flawed?

All Roy ended up doing was allow Miko to slip back into her deluded frame of reference when she seemed on the verge of finally breaking out of it. Of course, now we'll never know, since Mr. Greenhilt decided that Shojo's murder finally gave him an excuse to get back at Miko for rejecting him ...at least, that seems to be the primary motivation, since he talks about Miko's sex life far more than he talks about Shojo.

[Pax_Chi]

That said, do I blame Roy for attacking, or find it out of character? No. My criticism of Roy in this regard stems from, as a person who not only likes to constantly remind himself, everyone around him, and us as readers how high his Intelligence score is, and as someone who's claimed moral superiority (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) to Miko, the actions he ended up taking when given the chance to actually prove that he's better than she is make him a hypocrite. Roy decides to take justice into his own hands and carry out a death sentence on his own...precisely what Miko did approximentally two rounds earlier. How can he reconcile claiming moral high ground on her when he stoops to her methods, which had just been rather dramatically demonstrated to be flawed?

Because unlike Miko, Roy didn't imagine some slight or make crazy Monk-like leaps in logic to justify his attacking Miko. He just watched her murder someone who could not defend himself physically, made no move to attack her or even call for help, and who had been trying to save the entire planet from destruction. Combine that with Roy already being in a bad mood from several factors in previous strips and who exactly just commited an act he finds morally reprehensible, well, what happened next seems pretty justifiable. Especially when he stated that he wanted to kick her ass, not kill her. Given Roy's personality, he likely would have beaten her within an inch of her life, and stopped there, realizing at the last second that killing her would make him not better than her. In fact, we might still see this.

[Finwe]

I can't believe how many people are saying that Roy acted improperly in attacking Miko. He just witnessed a person murder an innocent man in cold blood! Then the Gods themselves weighed in on how heinous the crime was.


There's quite a difference between killing in cold blood and enacting mistaken justice. Granted, they're both evil and deserve very harsh punishments, but cold blooded murder is a step below Miko's crime.



The ONLY reason I can think of that people would think that Roy is acting improperly (some even say evil!) is because of how they feel about Miko. Or perhaps because of the childish insults he delivers to her while kicking her murdering ass.He's not acting improperly - he's just acting far from optimally.



In what possible interpretation of the DnD universe is attacking a murderer on sight the wrong action? There is no misinterpretation here, no misunderstanding on Roys part, in fact not even the possibility that all is not what it seems: the Gods themselves have rendered a verdict on Miko's actions.
Yes - its simply the fact that he's acting out of rage instead of Good.



And it really is only because people like Miko. Take this strip:

Lay a hand on your precious Miko and suddenly he's the devil. If you can't attack a murderer whom who just witnessed kill her victim in cold blood and who is then denounced by the gods and still remain a good character...then no adventurer can be of good alignment, because if you can't attack a murderer, who can you attack?
Oh yes, everyone who disagrees with Roy is head over heals in love with Miko. I actually hate Miko, and up to this moment loved Roy. Its just disappointing that someone who so prides himself in placing Good above Law chose such a destructive course of action.

[Ampersand]

Because unlike Miko, Roy didn't imagine some slight or make crazy Monk-like leaps in logic to justify his attacking Miko.

I didn't say that he did. What I'm saying is that Roy's attack on Miko, completely aside from the issues of whether it was justified or whether it was in character for him, was hypocritical in the extreme and represents a major failing for him. Particularly given that he's claimed moral superiority to Miko, is intelligent enough to realize what he's doing, and as a protagonist with a Good alignment, can't pull out of the "Batman Card" to anti-hero his actions away.

[Pax_Chi]

I didn't say that he did. What I'm saying is that Roy's attack on Miko, completely aside from the issues of whether it was justified or whether it was in character for him, was hypocritical in the extreme and represents a major failing for him. Particularly given that he's claimed moral superiority to Miko, is intelligent enough to realize what he's doing, and as a protagonist with a Good alignment, can't pull out of the "Batman Card" to anti-hero his actions away.

Okay, I'll bite. HOW is Roy being hypocritical here? Miko just committed murder in front of him. He has a solid, morally justifiable reason for wanting to take her down. He REMAINS morally superior to her because he's taking down someone who just killed another being for no other reason that she "thought he might be evil". He didn't stab her in the back (she's facing him when he hits her), and he makes no claim that he's going to kill her, just, and I quote "kick her ass". Given how we've seen that OotS characters can be one-shotted no matter their hit points (such as Elan being brought to almost death from a single sword strike when it came from behind), if Roy had truly wanted Miko dead, he could have Coup De Grace'd her from behind with a green flame amped sword strike and probably dropped her in one hit. He wants to beat the tar out of her, not murder her.

As far as I can tell from this exchange, beating up a murderer who obviously can still defend herself IS morally superior to killing a defenseless old man for crimes one couldn't prove.

[dunbar]

It's possible to think Roy handled this particular situation poorly...

Several people in this thread and others have echoed this sentiment. That he handled the situation poorly. Again, we are only having this discussion because the murderer in question is Miko.

Let's say, hypothetically, it was not Miko who eavesdropped on the conversation. Instead, it was random paladin #4. Paladin #4 then bursts in, confronts Shojo with a very similar speech to the one Miko gave, kills him, and is stripped of his powers. Cue enraged Roy kicking some fallen paladin butt.

Somehow, I don't think we'd have all these threads talking about how horrible it was that Roy didn't try to reason with paladin #4. Instead, we'd be discussing if this kind of mental instability is rampant in the Sapphire Guard and cheering Roy on. No one (or very few people) would be on some random paladin's side.

But people rally to Miko's defense because we know so much about her. We empathise with her. And because we understand her (and we understand her better than Roy does, as we know more about her because of our perspective as readers of the comic), we pity her, and we want her to get help.

Could Roy have handled this better? How exactly? With his ranks in diplomacy? Or his training in knowledge: psychology? Miko has severe mental issues she needs to work through. She is a very dangerous combatant (Roy knows this firsthand, getting badly beaten even with his teammates to help him). Roy's best chance of acheiving a good outcome in this situation is to try to subdue Miko as quickly as possible.

But I am curious. All of those who say he handled this situation poorly, please enlighten me: what should he have done differently? Keep in mind that Hinjo is in a very vulnerable position, and with Miko's mental state she may well have found a way to blame him for her fall. So Roy is faced with a highly skilled and dangerous opponent having some kind of mental breakdown, and opponent who has been more than a match for him in the past, who is within striking distance of another defenseless person, but who is also momentarilly stunned probably (from Roy's point of view) due to the intervention of the 12. He either takes this opportunity to take her down (he has skills for this), or attempts some quick psychotherapy (which he lacks skill in as well as the knowledge of Miko's character we readers have).

I'd say, given the situation, his best course of action is pretty clear. But I'm open to other thoughts.

[dunbar]

There's quite a difference between killing in cold blood and enacting mistaken justice. Granted, they're both evil and deserve very harsh punishments, but cold blooded murder is a step below Miko's crime.

Ok, mistaken justice? How about made-up crazy-talk? She has only the most tenuous of links to go on. Her action here is the manifestation of her inability to understand that she can be wrong. Almost from day 1 she has twisted facts in her head to fit her beliefs. She isn't acting out of justice, but out of arrogance; her belief that she alone can see the evil. He belief that she is the chosen of the 12 and they have given her this special insight.

So sure, maybe not cold-blooded murder. But still murder.


He's not acting improperly - he's just acting far from optimally.

See my previous comment in this thread where I ask what he can do that is optimal...given his skill set. When getting past a locked door using lockpicks and getting in quietly is "optimal"...if you are a hulking ogre with no experience with locks, it's not really an option, but bashing the door down is.

I think, given his skill set, he did act optimally. Or at least close to it.


Yes - its simply the fact that he's acting out of rage instead of Good.

So he's mad, therefore his action is wrong? So if instead he calmly stared at Miko and stated "My name is Roy Greenhilt. You killed Lord Shojo. Prepare to die" ala the Princess Bride, it'd be ok since he isn't in a rage?

He's angry because he just witnessed a murder, and not just any murder, one that puts the fate of the world in jeopardy. I think it's only appropriate to be angry. Any good being should be angry at seeing this. And he's hardly acting only out of rage...there are any number of good reasons for him to attack, as that's really his best way of subduing her.


Oh yes, everyone who disagrees with Roy is head over heals in love with Roy. I actually hate Miko, and up to this moment loved Roy. Its just disappointing that someone who so prides himself in placing Good above Law chose such a destructive course of action.

I never meant to imply that people were in love with Roy or not. Only that empathy for Miko is the only reason I see for people to side against him here.

And others have mentioned that Roy is lowering himself to Miko's level here, I really have nothing more to say that I haven't said in my last post. Roy doesn't have the insight into Miko's character that we have. He's just seen her commit a murder and endanger the world, for reasons that are (to Roy) just crazy. Roy may have wanted Miko to see other people's point of view and lighten up a bit, but certainly wouldn't have taken any moral high ground on Miko subdoing or even killing someone who she had just seen commit murder and be condemned by the Gods.

Again, if it was some random NPC and not Miko, would you think so little of Roy? Would you really expect him to sit and have a chat with random paladin #4?

[War]

Let's say, hypothetically, it was not Miko who eavesdropped on the conversation. Instead, it was random paladin #4. Paladin #4 then bursts in, confronts Shojo with a very similar speech to the one Miko gave, kills him, and is stripped of his powers. Cue enraged Roy kicking some fallen paladin butt.

Somehow, I don't think we'd have all these threads talking about how horrible it was that Roy didn't try to reason with paladin #4. Instead, we'd be discussing if this kind of mental instability is rampant in the Sapphire Guard and cheering Roy on. No one (or very few people) would be on some random paladin's side.
Are you kidding? I, for one, would think that was much worse. At least with Miko, Roy has a past, a history of antagonism, and a helping of emotional baggage, which set up his very vehement emotional reaction. He's not at his best around her, and that's to be expected.

But I am curious. All of those who say he handled this situation poorly, please enlighten me: what should he have done differently? Keep in mind that Hinjo is in a very vulnerable position, and with Miko's mental state she may well have found a way to blame him for her fall. So Roy is faced with a highly skilled and dangerous opponent having some kind of mental breakdown, and opponent who has been more than a match for him in the past, who is within striking distance of another defenseless person, but who is also momentarilly stunned probably (from Roy's point of view) due to the intervention of the 12. He either takes this opportunity to take her down (he has skills for this), or attempts some quick psychotherapy (which he lacks skill in as well as the knowledge of Miko's character we readers have).
In part, it seems like some of the disagreement as to how obviously dangerous Miko was. It's morally quite acceptable to fight someone in defense of oneself or others, but not out of revenge. To me, Roy's attack looked purely offensive.

A lot of the problem is that Miko was, for the first time in pretty much ever, confused and doubting rather than secure in her own self-righteousness. It's the only opportunity Roy has ever had where she had the slightest chance of understanding what's wrong with her -- maybe she would have snapped back to the self-righteousness no matter what he did, but it's foolish to throw that chance away.

Failing that, he could've at least let her get back to anger on her own, instead of throwing himself in her face at the exact moment she was struggling to figure out who to blame. All he's done in this strip is encourage her delusions -- and again, maybe his encouragement doesn't really make any difference, but it does mean he's completely signed off on any good left in her.

So not wrong, per se. Justified, certainly. It just could've been a lot better, and like I said, it makes sense that he's not at his best. Preferably, he could've done something not so reminiscent of Miko's own mistake. Haven't we established by now that the one-person judge-jury-executioner routine isn't a fantastic idea?

[Charles Phipps]

Let's use someone else.

Let's say Hinjo did it.

Yes, Yes I think people would be complaining.

[TreesOfDeath]

I was shocked to see Roy attack Miko and on gut I was like "omg you bastard" (particurly with all the trash talk. If he attacked her and kept in relative silence it woudln't have been so bad. It would have been quite intresting if he took the cool excutionar style demeanor Miko took when she attacked the order. Miko: But... I Roy: No buts).
But his actions are understandble. Maybe he should have waited to see what Miko was going to do, but from what hes seen of Miko he may have been expecting her to attack him or Hinjo, and plus Roy was acting from an emotional response of seeing someone murdered in cold blood, not really from reason

[dunbar]

Are you kidding? I, for one, would think that was much worse. At least with Miko, Roy has a past, a history of antagonism, and a helping of emotional baggage, which set up his very vehement emotional reaction. He's not at his best around her, and that's to be expected.

Maybe I'll just never understand this viewpoint. Apparently, if I ever see someone shoot a friend of mine in the head, for stated reasons that I know to be flat-out wrong, and the heavens open up and the voice of [insert deity] pronounces the person guilty, and he stands stunned for a moment, I should not take that opportunity to subdue him. I should stand around, take a moment to let him recover his composure, and hope that he doesn't start killing other people.

That will never make sense to me. Subdue the threat, then we can talk about things later.


In part, it seems like some of the disagreement as to how obviously dangerous Miko was. It's morally quite acceptable to fight someone in defense of oneself or others, but not out of revenge. To me, Roy's attack looked purely offensive.

How dangerous? Roy knows. He's been beaten, badly, twice, even with help from his teammates, who aren't around at the moment. So Roy knows full well how dangerous a combatant she is, even without her paladin powers. So was his attack offensive? Given his prior experience, getting the jump on her may well be his only chance of taking her down.

And his first few blows were not cutting blows...note the bruising on Miko and the thunk from the second swing. They may have well been subdual damage...enough where she would be later incapacitated by real damage before she was killed. Even if it wasn't subdual damage, we don't know that Roy was going to kill her, or just subdue her and take her prisoner.

In any case, his attack is in defence of others. She has already killed a man, she is mentally unstable, and has stated her opposition to the OotS. Roy has no idea what she might do next, but given his history with her it's pretty easy to guess that it would be violent.


A lot of the problem is that Miko was, for the first time in pretty much ever, confused and doubting rather than secure in her own self-righteousness. It's the only opportunity Roy has ever had where she had the slightest chance of understanding what's wrong with her -- maybe she would have snapped back to the self-righteousness no matter what he did, but it's foolish to throw that chance away.

We know this. Roy does not. I agree with you completely that Miko has had a major breakthrough...I thought, for a while, that she might turn on the Gods themselves. But she has seen that she was wrong, and that's a huge step.


Failing that, he could've at least let her get back to anger on her own, instead of throwing himself in her face at the exact moment she was struggling to figure out who to blame. All he's done in this strip is encourage her delusions -- and again, maybe his encouragement doesn't really make any difference, but it does mean he's completely signed off on any good left in her.

But he takes a chance here, gambling with other people's lives, if he doesn't take the opportunity now to subdue her. Again, she is extremely dangerous...to my mind, the most important thing is to subdue her. Talking can always come later...if he let her recover he jeopardizes his best chance of stopping her now.


So not wrong, per se. Justified, certainly. It just could've been a lot better, and like I said, it makes sense that he's not at his best. Preferably, he could've done something not so reminiscent of Miko's own mistake. Haven't we established by now that the one-person judge-jury-executioner routine isn't a fantastic idea?

Could it have been better? Maybe, we don't know. Is Roy necessarily the best person to help her through her problems? Especially since she has no reason to stop thinking that the OotS are aligned with the evil lich.

To me, Roy's odds of settling things peacefully are incredibly remote. Subduing the threat and talking later is a much much better option, and we don't really know if he intended to merely incapacitate her or kill her. Even so, he'd hardly be a one-person judge-jury-executioner...the 12 have already rendered their verdict, and the judgement of 12 good gods is probably pretty reliable. And you assume, again, that Roy is aiming to kill her...we don't know (and may never know) if he would have if he had the chance.

[War]

*snip*
On the plight of poor Generic Paladin #4 -- well, I'd expect Roy to react, sure. Rush over, tackle the guy down, knock him out and all that. If he displayed the sort of personal animosity, rage, and venom towards some random shmuck that he's using on Miko now, it would absolutely be excessive.

Hmm, I'll give you the possibility of subdual damage on Roy's first few attacks, although that will probably never be certain either way. It's dangedly hard to tell with the stick figures sometimes. Miko's first attack didn't do any visible damage at all, which seems pretty unlikely given its nature. If he was doing non-lethal damage, though, it didn't last long, what with him wholesale impaling her.

He did advance on her, armed, before she picked her weapon up, and attacked her when she was not in any position to defend herself. If she hadn't intended to fight -- and I'm not convinced he was thinking about that for a second, see below -- Roy forced her to.


We know this. Roy does not.
This I definitely disagree with. Her shocked reaction was not private, and Roy in fact answered her confusion: "Who the hell cares?" He dismissed, out of hand, the possibility of even deigning to say that she was wrong; he doesn't care whether she's sorry or finally ready to understand the truth. He wants to kick her ass cause he's pissed off. And insult her a lot, just to make sure they'll never get along. Understandable, but not precisely a noble motivation.

The advantage Miko does have over Jenerikku back there is that Roy knows her, at least in some capacity; I don't think the basics of her motivations are beyond his means here, especially since she was just explaining them a couple updates ago. He knows that she's never confronted the possibility of being wrong, and that she has a lot of personal dislike of him and his friends.

Hey, I guess she did sort of acknowledge that she made a mistake! She just, you know, decided it was Roy's fault. I guess knowing Miko, we should be happy she didn't find a way to think killing Shojo was right.

I'm not really comfortable with the idea of using her falling as a go-ahead to kill her, either. Not being good enough for paladinhood is a far cry from not being good enough to live -- paladins are expected to be better than everyone else, although in this case it's safe to say laymen shouldn't go around killing Shojo either. But the gods didn't say, for instance, that Miko has no chance of redemption, or that a stay in jail wouldn't do her a world of good.

Anyway. I appreciate you listening to the other side a bit, and I've enjoyed debating it, but I've got to sleep now, so someone else will have to do it for a while.

[Charles Phipps]

That will never make sense to me. Subdue the threat, then we can talk about things later.

At heart, a lot of people think of Miko as part of the party whether she acknowledges it. Belkar killed a guard and Roy stands behind him because he's a friend. He doesn't go berserk on him.

[Jonsey]

I don't know if it's been covered yet or not, but as far as i can see a lot of people seem to be classing Roy attacking Miko and Miko slicing Shojo as the same thing.

What I mean is that it is not yet proven that Roy is intending to actually KILL Miko by attacking her. I think it is much more likely that, like people have stated, Roy (as a fighter) has assessed the situation, realised that diplomacy is not an option, and thus is trying to trying to minimalize the threat that Miko still poses.

I mean, Roy knows that Miko is a tough fighter, paladin or not. The way i see it he is trying to make it as unlikely as possible that Miko is going to harm anyone else so that judgement may be rendered. Roy just doesn't seem to me the kind of guy that would kill someone in retaliation to witnessing a murder, but he DOES seem like the kind of guy that upon witnessing said murder, would do everything in his power to help bring the murderer to justice.

thats just MY opinion though

[Charles Phipps]

I don't know if it's been covered yet or not, but as far as i can see a lot of people seem to be classing Roy attacking Miko and Miko slicing Shojo as the same thing.

There's no reason to assume that Roy wasn't trying.

Anyone more than Miko just intended to wound shojo.

[Jonsey]

There's no reason to assume that Roy wasn't trying.

Anyone more than Miko just intended to wound shojo.

well, Miko DID proclaim Shojo to be guilty of treason in 406, which DOES warrant the death penalty. And in the state of mind she was in i dont think she was intending to transport him to the dungeons to await the time of his execution.

[SmartAlec]

Roy decides to take justice into his own hands and carry out a death sentence on his own

Doesn't seem like he's trying to kill her. She's on the ground, wounded and winded, and he lets her get back up. He gives her a chance to yield. I don't think he wants her to take that chance, because he wants to continue venting - but he DOES back off and let her recover. To me, it looks like he's trying to beat her into submission (or unconsciousness, whichever comes first).

I think if Miko actually threw down her sword and said, 'I surrender', Roy would stop fighting.

[Pantler]

In my humble opinion the point is that in D&D a Lawful Good alignment allows people to kill others arbitrarily for such reasons as (to name a few) vengeance, looking for treasure, because they don't want you to walk into their territory, because they have a different philosophy than you (evil alignment) or simply because they have green skin and fangs and you don't. So don't judge Roy's acts based on real-life morality, because I'm pretty sure I'd only call someone good if he never kills except while defending himself.

In D&D morality, Roy did just the right thing - attacked a psychopath who he just saw execute (not just attack) a legitimate ruler. What was he supposed to do, call the guards, wait for an arrest warrant? He's LG, so he acts to protect the law and the good. That's all.

[Ashbless]

In my humble opinion the point is that in D&D a Lawful Good alignment allows people to kill others arbitrarily for such reasons as (to name a few) vengeance, looking for treasure, because they don't want you to walk into their territory, because they have a different philosophy than you (evil alignment) or simply because they have green skin and fangs and you don't. So don't judge Roy's acts based on real-life morality, because I'm pretty sure I'd only call someone good if he never kills except while defending himself.

In D&D morality, Roy did just the right thing - attacked a psychopath who he just saw execute (not just attack) a legitimate ruler. What was he supposed to do, call the guards, wait for an arrest warrant? He's LG, so he acts to protect the law and the good. That's all.

I think you're quite wrong, and reaching for an arguement to support your conclusion here.

Where were they? In the heart of the Sapphire Gaurds HQ. Hinjo was in the room at the time Miko executed Shinjo, all three of whom were Sapphire Gaurds. It was an internal matter - I believe the best course would have been for Roy to ask Hinjo if he wanted help in restrainig Miko...

Then he could have attacked, or (b) stood guard over her, or (c), left to the Gaurds. All of which would have been valid actions.

To attack someone who was in a state of (self-inflicted) shock was an evil act in my opinion. Perhaps more to the point, it definately made matters worse.

But my big question really has to be what has happened to all the other people in the rom, besides the three we've seen in this page of the comic?
What where they all doing???

[SmartAlec]

Where were they? In the heart of the Sapphire Gaurds HQ. Hinjo was in the room at the time Miko executed Shinjo, all three of whom were Sapphire Gaurds. It was an internal matter - I believe the best course would have been for Roy to ask Hinjo if he wanted help in restrainig Miko

As Roy points out, Shojo was the only other person he knew who was really in on this saving-the-world thing. In the face of that, Azure City's internal politics seem petty. Not sure it can be classed as an entirely 'internal' matter.

[fizzbang]

The fact that there is even that much of a split at all shows me how dedicated people are to excusing the most heinous of actions by Miko in some way or another.

And Roy is a jerk, huh. Id like to hear the reasoning behind that one.

Well, to be fair, Roy's always been a bit of a jerk. It's how he vents the frustration of leading the party, and it's one of the ways he gets to enemies in fights.

Really, it's that snide, sarcastic side that I always felt made him an excellent character - in a lot of ways, he's the voice of the reader, making fun of characters in ways that we'd like to say, ourselves.

The thing that confuses me is how many people are taking umbrage at a single one of Roy's insults for talking about her sex-life. It seems that it's hit a sore spot with some people, either calling it chauvinistic sexism (which has been well argued against), or calling it below-the-belt and too personal (which seems like a strange concern when he's already impaled her on a greatsword).

I agree that it would have been a healthier resolution for someone with excellent diplomacy to talk some sense into Miko during her moment of weakness. But that wouldn't make for a very good or exciting comic. Maybe it'll be a point we can see in another hundred comics of Miko dealing with her new concerns.

But kudos to Roy for doing what any realistic character would, jerkiness and all!

[Jorkens]

Face it: if anyone else had done what Miko had, everybody would be cheering on Roy. Its a blatant double standard.
Not quite - if Thog had done it people would be saying that he just liked playing with the big sword and only wanted to have fun so it wasn't really wrong for him to kill Shojo.

[Serenity]

Ask Hinjo for help? The manhas rushed to his dead Uncle's side in grief. He's not going to be thinking straight or getting involved right now.Also, he's right within reach of Miko, and openly mourning a man she just declared a serious agent of evil.

Note that her doubt was 'I don't understand,' not 'What have I done?' As in "I don't understand! Shojo was a traitor! How can the Gods be punishing me for what they told me to do? Someone's tricked me...GREENHILT!"

She gave Shojo the chop on the basis of a wild conspiracy theory. Roy is under no obligation to redeem her, be nice to her, or really give her any consideration at all. His actions are in character, justifiable, and in my firm opinion, right. Intelligence? He's thinking tactically. He KNOWS Miko's unstable and a high-level warrior who once took down his entire team. The odds are better now that he has his Greatsword, but there's still no reason for him to let her gain composure and attack first. Her shock was an opening; he took it. Is it good? He just saw her chop an innocent man in half on trumped up charges not even a minute ago. And he's supposed to put a hand on her shoulder and say, "Rough break, wanna talk about it?"

Speaking 'meta', there's no way she wasn't going to blame Roy for her fall. If she were to come to her senses immediately, then what the hell would have been the point of having her fall in the first place?

[Jorkens]

There seem to be at least three issues here - is Roy doing the best thing for the long term by attacking Miko, is attacking Miko a Good action, and whether we can blame Roy for attacking Miko.

IMO the answers are no, no and no.

It's not clear what conclusion Miko would come to when the implications of her fall sunk in. But given that she believed she was doing the Right Thing based on the information available to her - which she helpfully summarized a couple of comics ago, so everyone present can be pretty clued in on what she was thinking - having a new and fairly unequivocable piece of information presented to her might well lead her to the right conclusion. And given that Miko as an ally fighting against Xykon - particularly with the drive to atone for her fall by giving Evil a good kicking - would be a good thing compared to he as an enemy fighting the OotS, it would probably have been a worthwhile risk to take the time to suggest to her that maybe this is a sign from the gods that she's misunderstood things and that now might be a good time to start putting things right.

In terms of Good and Evil, the SRD has ""Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others." This doesn't actually say anything about summarily punishing the guilty with death. Particularly questionable is whether on the basis of "an eye for an eye" killing someone who may be in the process of sincerely repenting for what they did (and this being a fictional setting, sincere repentance can be a lot more clear cut than in the real world) is a good thing.

On the other hand, what people do in the heat of the moment like that isn't neccessarily the Right Thing and it's pretty hard to blame them for it. If someone had just bisected a defensless octogenerian friend of mine, I'd be fairly likely to go at them with everything I'd got. It seems fairly harsh to expect cold rationality in that sort of situation.

[Jorkens]

Speaking 'meta', there's no way she wasn't going to blame Roy for her fall. If she were to come to her senses immediately, then what the hell would have been the point of having her fall in the first place?
The fall is a clear message from the gods that what she was doing was wrong. She believed that the gods had shown her that Shojo was guilty and that she was doing their will in executing him. Given that they'd just given her a clear sign that she wasn't doing their will in executing him, it would have been plausible for her to conclude that she'd been wrong about the whole thing. If anything's going to make you reevaluate everything you believe, it's going to be a smack in the face from the deities you're trying to serve.

[Serenity]

She said 'I don't understand.' Pretty easy to take that to the conclusion she came to based on Roy's attack: that he has somehow tricked the Gods, or weaved an incredibly tangled web to trick her into attacking an innocent man.

Dramatically speaking, the Giant can't write an on-the-spot epiphany and atonement. Miko is, always has been, and always will be an antagonist of the OotS. For the purposes of the story, Rich needs to keep her that way, and for the purposes of the story, there's no point in having a Paladin fall if she atones immediately afterwards.

[SteveMB]

I think Roy's actions were unwise, but only because of the perspective I have as a reader.
There are reasons for concluding that Roy's actions were unwise, but I don't think they were either out of character or unreasonable under the circumstances.

After all, he's just seen a powerful and rather irrational person murder her lord in cold blood. In doing so, she dumped an extra share of the responsibility for saving the world on his shoulders, and cut off his main source of information he might need for that project. I'd be pissed, and determined to neutralize her before he went completely berzerk, too.

[Jorkens]

She said 'I don't understand.' Pretty easy to take that to the conclusion she came to based on Roy's attack: that he has somehow tricked the Gods, or weaved an incredibly tangled web to trick her into attacking an innocent man.
It's a damn sight easier if he immediately hits you with a sword while taunting you. Where previously she may have doubted whether Roy was evil, it's now pretty clear from her point of view.

Dramatically speaking, the Giant can't write an on-the-spot epiphany and atonement. Miko is, always has been, and always will be an antagonist of the OotS. For the purposes of the story, Rich needs to keep her that way, and for the purposes of the story, there's no point in having a Paladin fall if she atones immediately afterwards.
"Always will be"? Erm, why neccessarily? Characters committing evil deeds and then atoning or realizing their mistake and spending a lot of time regretting it is a fairly standard fictional trope. Enemies can become friends or at least uneasy allies against a greater evil.

And I'm talking about realizing that what you've done is wrong and determining to make amends - atonement for paladins is a bit more complex than 'oops, sorry about that, can I have my steed back?' but the realization that you've fallen because you've done wrong can be instantaneous.

[SteveMB]

Of course, now we'll never know, since Mr. Greenhilt decided that Shojo's murder finally gave him an excuse to get back at Miko for rejecting him ...at least, that seems to be the primary motivation, since he talks about Miko's sex life far more than he talks about Shojo.
My impression is that he's reacting to his mental image of "Gods, what if I'd actually gotten myself stuck with her before finding out what she's really like?"

[Serenity]

But it would be dramatically uninteresting to have her start on the path of atonement right after giving Shojo the slice. Plot demands she blame someone else for her fall at least initially. She could have done so without Roy's help, and dramatically speaking, she would have.

The demands of the plot aside, Roy has no reason to believe she'll listen to anything he has to say, every reason to believe that she's still potentially dangerous, and full-out knowledge that she's unstable and a murderer.

[SteveMB]

There's quite a difference between killing in cold blood and enacting mistaken justice.
"Mistaken"? So, it would have been perfectly proper for Miko to do what she did if she the conclusions she jumped to had happened to be true?

[SteveMB]

Hmm, I'll give you the possibility of subdual damage on Roy's first few attacks, although that will probably never be certain either way. It's dangedly hard to tell with the stick figures sometimes.
My read on it is that the larger "splotch" wound (rather than a cut) on Miko's cheek is a possible indication of a strike with the flat side of the sword (i.e. subdual damage).


Miko's first attack didn't do any visible damage at all, which seems pretty unlikely given its nature.
I think she simply missed.


If he was doing non-lethal damage, though, it didn't last long, what with him wholesale impaling her.
If he had been holding back at first, he may have simply given up hope that she'd stop until somebody was KOd or dead, and concentrated on making sure that was her, not him.

[Jorkens]

The demands of the plot aside, Roy has no reason to believe she'll listen to anything he has to say,
Apart from the fact that she's always believed that she's carrying out the gods' will and has just found out that she wasn't and is in the middle of trying to figure out how she could have been wrong. Maybe she wouldn't have listened to him, but by whacking her with a sword and taunting her about her sex life he's pretty much made sure she won't.

[Black Hand]

So, Roy's probably Chaotic Good Judging by his actions, as was Miko...both doing actions that are somewhat rectionary rather than thought out...Well hers were thought out but misgueded and personal since her ideas were kept to herself to foster her own askewed point of view...I'm more curious on how Belkar's gonna handle things. :smallbiggrin:

[xyzchyx]

What _COULD_ Roy have done differently?

Well for starters, he could have had the sense to not assume that in any way he was remotely qualified to answer Miko's questions of self-doubt. Telling her in nearly so many words that there is nobody that could possibly ever care about her was just shy of outright cruelty. I can appreciate that Roy was emotional over this, but Miko is not Xykon... she doesn't _want_ to be a bad person, she just clearly doesn't know _how_ to be a good one.

In panel 6, Roy really should have told Miko to drop her weapon, not basically said to her that her questions were being unheard even by the gods themselves (who, I might point out, probably *DO* care). If Miko willfully refused, _THEN_ I can see that further forceful action might have been required. But kicking somebody when they are down and need real help, and indeed are at the moment starting to show signs of becoming aware of this fact (which Miko clearly was) is just not cool.

[Learnedguy]

About those insults, I wonder if Roy might have spent his skillpoints (or whatever you pro players call em^^) in taunt?

So he was, in fact, doing a tactical action by taunting her.

[Setra]

Just because we don't like the outcome, doesn't mean Roy handled it badly.

The only thing I could think of him doing that would have been different was tackling her to the ground, and maybe disarming her.

However he didn't have enough time to think, sure it would have been cool if he tried to talk Miko down, and try to redeem her, but seriously, can you see Roy doing that? Under the circumstances, I would probably have done the same thing, except I would have not held back.

Chances are Miko was too far gone by this point anyways.

[TinSoldier]

Just for clarification:

Unless the artwork changed from last night, Miko's first attack on Roy did do damage.

[SmartAlec]

Yup - after Miko's slash, slash, slash attack, an off-colour slash appears on Roy's torso, though it's unclear if that's just a shallow cut or a mark made on his armour.

[TinSoldier]

Yup - after Miko's slash, slash, slash attack, an off-colour slash appears on Roy's torso, though it's unclear if that's just a shallow cut or a mark made on his armour.I think it's supposed to represent a minor wound. It's reddish but it's on a blue background.

[SmartAlec]

After thinking about it long and hard, I actually really feel for Roy.

Thing is, he's been stuck with a quest to save the world. He got tangled up in it thanks to his father's wishes, in over his head and unknowing of just how serious things are. I don't think he wanted it, I don't think he wants to do it, I think he's just doing it because there doesn't seem to be anyone else who's prepared to do it. He's too Good to try to pass the buck. It's a massive responsibility and I don't think it's a coincidence that he's become more snappy and put-upon since it began.

But even though Shojo and his father put that task upon him, at the very least the Order of the Stick had a place of safety and security in Azure City. They had Shojo's aid, and with it the resources of an entire ciy-state.The Order of the Stick might be going into danger to save the world, but they have a powerful patron backing them up who's in a position to help them in many ways.

In a way, the mantle of Responsibility had been gratefully taken from Roy's shoulders. Shojo was the man with the plan. Roy would be the leader of the Order of the Stick, but he wouldn't be alone in working against Xykon. He'd be working for Shojo, and Shojo would carry the burden of being in overall command of the efforts to save the world.

But that's all ruined now. Shojo's dead, there's no reason to believe that Hinjo is going to support the Order of the Stick given that he now knows the Order's trial was rigged. All of a sudden, the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY for saving the world from a mad Lich has been put squarely back onto Roy, he and his party no longer have the support of Azure City to accomplish that task, and it's Miko's doing.

And she still doesn't have any idea of the magnitude of what she's done. In Roy's position, you might imagine someone to crack under the sudden pressure of realising that he and his small party of allies are now completely alone. Instead, he puts that emotion to use, channels it. He doesn't just give up. He defaults back to being what he is - a man of action. Shojo's killer has to be neutralised. He moves to do that. After that, he somehow has to try and salvage the absolute mess Miko's landed him with.

I don't blame him for needing to vent his frustration with taunts. The guy's got so, so so much to deal with right now and unless he deals with it best he can, he's just going to crack.

[Finwe]

See my previous comment in this thread where I ask what he can do that is optimal...given his skill set. When getting past a locked door using lockpicks and getting in quietly is "optimal"...if you are a hulking ogre with no experience with locks, it's not really an option, but bashing the door down is.

I think, given his skill set, he did act optimally. Or at least close to it.

If you need to get through a locked door, and you're a figher, and there's a rouge in the same room, the best course of action is not to smash the door. If there's a fallen paladin who might be able to be convinced to atone, and there's another paladin in the room, the Good course of action is not to start stabbing. Roy's best course of action would be to do his best to make sure that Miko doesn't get away if she tries to escape, but otherwise let Hinjo do the talking. After all, Hinjo knows Miko better than Roy does, and probably has higher charisma and diplomacy.




So he's mad, therefore his action is wrong? So if instead he calmly stared at Miko and stated "My name is Roy Greenhilt. You killed Lord Shojo. Prepare to die" ala the Princess Bride, it'd be ok since he isn't in a rage?


I did not say that his actions were bad because he's mad. I said that he chose to react based on his anger. Sometimes, that would be the Good decision (for example, if it was Xykon who had killed Shojo).



He's angry because he just witnessed a murder, and not just any murder, one that puts the fate of the world in jeopardy. I think it's only appropriate to be angry. Any good being should be angry at seeing this. And he's hardly acting only out of rage...there are any number of good reasons for him to attack, as that's really his best way of subduing her.


Fate of the world in Jeopardy? Shojo really didn't have any critical role except as the rich guy who provides teleports to the OOTS. Appropriate to be angy? Yes, he should be furious, but he is acting out of rage. I think the line "I'm kicking your fallen ass right now" is a pretty good indicator that he's attacking because he WANTS to attack.




I never meant to imply that people were in love with Roy or not. Only that empathy for Miko is the only reason I see for people to side against him here.

I made a typo - I meant to say that I hate Miko, and used to love Roy. My criticisms of Roy have absolutely nothing to do with any empathy for Miko. People like her make my skin crawl in real life.


And others have mentioned that Roy is lowering himself to Miko's level here, I really have nothing more to say that I haven't said in my last post. Roy doesn't have the insight into Miko's character that we have. He's just seen her commit a murder and endanger the world, for reasons that are (to Roy) just crazy. Roy may have wanted Miko to see other people's point of view and lighten up a bit, but certainly wouldn't have taken any moral high ground on Miko subdoing or even killing someone who she had just seen commit murder and be condemned by the Gods.


Again, my deal with Roy isn't that he isn't justified in attacking Miko, but that he could have handled the situation infinitely better.



Again, if it was some random NPC and not Miko, would you think so little of Roy? Would you really expect him to sit and have a chat with random paladin #4?

If it were some random Paladin, or other guy who we knew to be dedicated to good, then yes, I'd still think Roy made a bad decision. Like he said before "this is a paladin. One of the Good guys." When a Good Guy(tm) makes a mistake, the best thing to do is not to kill them. In extreme cases like this, it is justifiable to attack, but it is still not the best course of action.

[kyrin]

Um, Shinjo really can't help right now. He is in shock and grief over his dead Uncle, and will likely be unavailable for the few rounds it would take Miko to gut Roy like a trout if he does something stupid like try to "slow her down" (How, by sticking himself on her sword?), grapple a trained unarmed combatant, or try to reason with a homicidal nutjob.

Has it occurred to ANY of you that Roy might be in fear of his life? That the bravado and the insults are masking the fact that he is very scared becuase he is in the same room as a delusional psychopath who has just assassinated someone SHE LOVES? Sure, now she'll LISTEN to someone she HATES, because it's Opposite Day, right?

Attacking was THE best course of action for Roy to take. Really, the only one he could expect would keep him alive. Take her down, quickly, before she kills us all like she just did Shojo. Hit her hard, use Expertise to block some of her blows, keep her off balance, and we just might make it out alive. Sensible guy, playing to his strengths.

JIM
aka kyrin

[Axl_Rose]

I generally make it a point to stay away from lengthy, heated, (frankly nerdy) debates over fictitious characters that were meant to be funny and not realistic, but the lines of reasoning used disgust me.


I can't believe how many people are saying that Roy acted improperly in attacking Miko. He just witnessed a person murder an innocent man in cold blood! Then the Gods themselves weighed in on how heinous the crime was.Yes, so to dissipate the chaos, + violence is the key. Gotcha. Sarcasm aside, you're over simplifying things and purposefully leaving things out to illustrate your point in your favour. First off, it's a fact that murder in this fictional strip is not that significant as resurrections occur so long as wealth isn't an issue. Second off, the gods taking away her power is no clear indication that Roy has to act - that was your own opinion entirely.



The ONLY reason I can think of that people would think that Roy is acting improperly (some even say evil!) is because of how they feel about Miko.Conversely, I could say "the ONLY reason I can think of that ppl would find Roy's behavior to be 150% appropriate is because of how they feel against Miko" though I won't - because that kind of generalization is self degrading and embarassing. There's subjectiveness on both sides, and to accuse only one is blatantly hypocritical. Furthermore, the ad-hominems don't quite work to support arguments either.



In what possible interpretation of the DnD universe is attacking a murderer on sight the wrong action? There is no misinterpretation here, no misunderstanding on Roys part, in fact not even the possibility that all is not what it seems: the Gods themselves have rendered a verdict on Miko's actions.Yes, verdict is that Miko was wrong and her powers were taken away. The verdict wasn't "Roy, thou art commanded to slay."


And it really is only because people like Miko. Take this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0011.html)

Here Roy is slaughtering goblins who were asleep. Simply because they were in Xykon's dungeon. They had done nothing he knows of to deserve death, but no one cares that he cuts their heads off while they are sleeping.That's because those are insignificant chunks of Xp in that strip.

[krossbow]

The thing is, I never really have liked roy that much; he's a guy with a rather inflated view of himself. While yes, the others in the order aren't exactly the cleanest bunchy, the bit with Nale showed them to be incredibly self sufficient, and he has never really given any of them (with the possibility of V or Durkon) and real respect in their capabilities.


Now, Yes, Roy is the only reason that the party has stuck together; but I constantly, constantly get tired of his self aggrandizing in combat.


that being said, attacking Miko was justified, and the insults were perfectly acceptable (you don't have to be nice to a killer--- though note that he is perfectly able to restrain himself from beating the crap out of belkar whenever he murders someone). However, the dialouge just exemplified all that I dislike about Roy; at least Miko was pitiable, albeit insane, in her words, while Roy's words were just too similiar to tormenting a fly with it's wings off.






Not to mention, ONCE AGAIN, Roy, seconds before was found to be corraborating with a leader in what could only be described as treasonous to the saphire guard; that alone makes him not pure white in this.
________
HONDA NSR500V SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_NSR500V)

[Ampersand]

Okay, I'll bite. HOW is Roy being hypocritical here.

Because he's using the exact same methods as Miko: he's assuming that he has authority and justification to execute her on the spot. You can't have it both ways: If people want to say that Miko should have arrested and tried Shojo for his crimes regardless of what potential threat he posed, I can't see how they can turn around and say that Roy can kill Miko without trial because of what potential threat she poses. Particularly in light of the fact that Roy is on record as claiming that he is more Lawful, more Good, and all around a better person than Miko.

And that's even assuming that Roy is fighting for Shojo, which I have my doubts about. Read panels 2-6 on the second page: he mentions Shojo once, offhand and not even by name, and Miko's sex life three times (and I'm being generous there and only counting it once a panel). Shojo is Roy's excuse, but I think what's really motivating him here is his own hatred of Miko and bruised ego from 200 comics ago when she said she wasn't interested in his Trouser Titan. Vengence and frustrated sexual desire aren't decent motivates to try to kill someone for a person of Good alignment.

Another question: If Roy was merely trying to subdue Miko, why would he kick off his Green Flames of Death? Energy attacks can very rarely do non-lethal damage without metamagic (I think sonic might be the only one, but I'm not even sure about that), so if he wanted to take her alive, why do something that increases his capacity to dole out deadly damage?

[chibibar]

The problem is that don't put ressurection into the mix. Sure it might be available but for story telling purpose (not D&D purpose) ressurection might not be an option. Maybe there is a rule ressurecting old people.. I dunno.

of course, we are all still debating on the next day assuming roy had as much time like we do to do a "hindsight." looking back, there is always a better action, situation, or things you could have done, but it all depends on your training and reflex.

I remember some limited military training, you train until it becomes automactic or reflex action. Same with martial art, you don't have time to think in the middle of the fight to do certain attack/defend. you have to do it via reflext or get taken down.

Roy was train as a fighter, meatshield, stand in front of people. He is good at what he does. Instinct and reflext kicks in when he saw Shojo murder before him. I don't care who you are, you kill my friend or my family I'm taking you down no question ask.

[Ampersand]

I remember some limited military training, you train until it becomes automactic or reflex action. Same with martial art, you don't have time to think in the middle of the fight to do certain attack/defend. you have to do it via reflext or get taken down.

Except that what Roy did wasn't instinct or reflex. He's completely actionless from the next-to-last panel of 406 until panel 4 of 408. In that time, he's stood by and watched Miko kill Shojo, watched her fall, watched Hinjo rush up to Shojo, and only then slowly walked up to Miko, listened to what she was saying, gave her an indignant speech to the effect of "You suck" and then gave her a face full of flaming greatsword.

Roy had plenty of time to consider his actions, and quite obviously did so.

[Silverlocke980]

I can't believe how many people are saying that Roy acted improperly in attacking Miko. He just witnessed a person murder an innocent man in cold blood! Then the Gods themselves weighed in on how heinous the crime was.

The ONLY reason I can think of that people would think that Roy is acting improperly (some even say evil!) is because of how they feel about Miko. Or perhaps because of the childish insults he delivers to her while kicking her murdering ass.

In what possible interpretation of the DnD universe is attacking a murderer on sight the wrong action? There is no misinterpretation here, no misunderstanding on Roys part, in fact not even the possibility that all is not what it seems: the Gods themselves have rendered a verdict on Miko's actions.

And it really is only because people like Miko. Take this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0011.html)

Here Roy is slaughtering goblins who were asleep. Simply because they were in Xykon's dungeon. They had done nothing he knows of to deserve death, but no one cares that he cuts their heads off while they are sleeping.

Lay a hand on your precious Miko and suddenly he's the devil. If you can't attack a murderer whom who just witnessed kill her victim in cold blood and who is then denounced by the gods and still remain a good character...then no adventurer can be of good alignment, because if you can't attack a murderer, who can you attack?

*Claps and cheers* Go you, man! Go you!

[SmartAlec]

Because he's using the exact same methods as Miko: he's assuming that he has authority and justification to execute her on the spot.

He's not trying to kill her. He even gives her a chance to surrender and/or get back up after bringing her to the ground. Miko wouldn't give him that chance, we can be sure.



And that's even assuming that Roy is fighting for Shojo, which I have my doubts about. Read panels 2-6 on the second page: he mentions Shojo once, offhand and not even by name, and Miko's sex life three times (and I'm being generous there and only counting it once a panel).

By my count, he mentions Shojo 3 times:

- as "The only other person actively trying to fix this stupid end-of-the-world thing"
- when he tries to point out Miko's madness in blaming him for her deeds: "Never should have said 'Kill your master' when playing Truth or Dare..."
- when pointing out Miko's fallen status: "... you hadn't bisected any unarmed octogenarians recently..."



Another question: If Roy was merely trying to subdue Miko, why would he kick off his Green Flames of Death?

He doesn't know what causes the Green Flames of Death. It's not intentional.

[Demented]

Roy doesn't give her the chance to surrender, but that's not because he's worse. It's because her chance to surrender occurred before she slew Shojo. Hinjo gave her that chance, to look at her actions and question them. She shot it down and proceeded.

Miko, on the other hand, once gave Roy the chance to surrender. Unconditionally, without stating as such. When he decided he'd propose a conditional surrender, she attacked.

[krossbow]

gave her a chance to surrender? She hadn't commited a crime yet in that comic! At that point, she was the one about to ask the others to surrender!


If she hadn't killed shojo, then Roy would have to be doing the exact same thing he's doing now to avoid being hauled off to jail, along with belkar.
________
Hotbox vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/hotbox-vaporizer.html)

[Firevalkyrie]

What _COULD_ Roy have done differently?

Well for starters, he could have had the sense to not assume that in any way he was remotely qualified to answer Miko's questions of self-doubt. Telling her in nearly so many words that there is nobody that could possibly ever care about her was just shy of outright cruelty. [...]

In panel 6, Roy really should have told Miko to drop her weapon, not basically said to her that her questions were being unheard even by the gods themselves (who, I might point out, probably *DO* care).
Wait, whoa, what?

Back up there.

Panel 6:

MIKO: "It all made sense, for the first time in years... The gods showed me his treachery... how?"

ROY: "Here's a thought: Who the hell cares?"

Roy is negating the importance of the previous question, not of her entire existence. She just murdered her father figure in a fit of insane rage, the rest of it is kind of a moot point.

[Firevalkyrie]

gave her a chance to surrender? She hadn't commited a crime yet in that comic! At that point, she was the one about to ask the others to surrender!


If she hadn't killed shojo, then Roy would have to be doing the exact same thing he's doing now to avoid being hauled off to jail, along with belkar.
It wasn't so much a chance to surrender, as a chance to back down and allow the situation to resolve without bloodshed. But she wasn't about to allow that to happen, because she sees things only in black and white, and to her worldview, black equates to dead.

[Enlong]

Yeah, I mean, sure I like Miko, but don't group us all together. I think Roy is solving the problem the best way he knows how, I mean she DID just kill Shojo in cold blood, though stabbing her while she was confused and panicky was probably a less than great idea there are plenty of options that are worse.Yeah, Miko was confused, and trying to think, and when Roy attacked her, the path of least resistance was to remember him as a foe and fight back. He solidified Miko's thoughts about him by attacking. It was kinda dumb.

[Shadic]

People need to realize that Roy appeared to hit Miko with the BLUNT of his blade when he first attacked.

Who's to say that his first strike wasn't just to subdue her? If she would have surrendered after that, I'm sure that he would have accepted it.

[NecroPaladin]

You can tell Rich has really hit plot-twist Nirvana when I register solely to comment on this issue. I'll make my argument brief and bitter.

This is what I'm hearing:

Miko kills an innocent.

Thus, she is obviously Misunderstood. You know, like batman. Or Jack the Ripper. He flayed, what, like 9 women alive? So, basic logic dictates that Jack the Ripper is 9 times as innocent as Miko. Thus, again by grade-school-level-logic, I can determine that I would rather be best buds with Jack the Ripper than Miko. Progress...in ACTION.

Roy attacks a woman who kills an innocent.

Thus, he is evil. Because he criticized and aggravated her. And we all know that aggravated assault is a clearly acceptable crime for Good (and did I mention LAWFUL) characters. Another little historical reference: Count Vlad of Wallacia, who went by the adorable pet name "the Impaler," had indo-European nomads just growling at his doorstep. And they cut of his trade routes. I mean, for the love of Christ those Balkan-dwelling sons of dogs CUT OFF HIS TRADE ROUTES! I mean, if that's not insulting, WHAT IS? And so he rounded up a whole lot of their peasants (do remember that peasants are technically innocents. And you get special bonus kudos if the people you kill are innocents, as proven earlier in this argument), tortured them to death, and set up their contorted, brutalized bodies in a, in the words of his enemies, "ghastly forest the likes of which had naught been seen in nightmares." And, again, I'm gonna resort to grade-school logic to solve this lil' conundrum. She got pissed and killed One (1) innocent. Vlad the Impaler, or as he should be known past this thread, Vlad the Saint, killed thousands because he was pissed. That means that Vlad the Impaler is over ONE THOUSAND times the Good OR Lawful that Miko could ever hope to be. I mean, I respect Miko, But Vlad? He is SO going on my buddy list. That man can do no wrong.

Kinda funny how logic works, huh?

Okay, let's do this again:

Killing your own king (and the uncle of the closest person you have to a friend) because you heard a sentence fragment through a wall.

Misunderstood.

Perceiving murder as though, god (12 gods?) forbid, it has a negative connotation.

EEEEEEEVVVIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL.

Or, for those who prefer it, *puts on nasally tone* "Lawful Neutral at best."

Dinnit get that the last time, plebians?

Okay, one more time.

Murder Good. Saying words out of your mouth that don't use any positive adjectives modifying "Miko?" Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Clearly, We need to get rid of Roy. He's too intense a villain for light-stomached readers. I mean, that man is "HEIL FUHRER!"-level evil. God, Rich. Kids read this strip. Have some restraint when you have your villains plunge to these levels.


FIRST POST RANT=/OFF.

[Enlong]

People need to realize that Roy appeared to hit Miko with the BLUNT of his blade when he first attacked.

Who's to say that his first strike wasn't just to subdue her? If she would have surrendered after that, I'm sure that he would have accepted it.
Yeah, but he of all people knows how volitile Miko can be when somone gives her a reason. By attacking her, he reminded her of the fact that she views Roy and his group as enemies. A better course of action would possibly be to wait for Hinjo to do something, talk it out with Miko (while keeping his sword within reach, just in case) or wait to see what Miko does first, because even if she did resort to attacking Roy, a fallen paladin wouldn't be a huge threat to an equel-level fighter who DOES have the bonus feats. He had nothing to lose from just waiting, but his temper got the better of him, I am sorry.

[xyzchyx]

Who's to say that his first strike wasn't just to subdue her? If she would have surrendered after that, I'm sure that he would have accepted it.Uhmmm... considering he had just said that he was going to "kick [her] fallen ass", it doesn't seem that striking to subdue was really on his mind there. I could be wrong, of course, but bear in mind that he had just finished saying in not so many words that nobody in the world could possibly care about her or her feelings, so it's pretty much certain that she's going to be as defensive as she possibly can, both emotionally and physically.


This is what I'm hearing:

Miko kills an innocent.

Thus, she is obviously Misunderstood.Heck no... she did a heinous thing and needs to be punished for it. All I'm saying is that Roy's approach, however Roy-like it might be, is just not the right approach to that particular situation. There was every reason to suspect that Miko was on the verge of being sorry for what she had done and then Roy had to interrupt it with a line about how nobody could possibly care what she felt. Now maybe she wasn't going there mentally, I don't know... but her words and her body language completely suggested that this could potentially happen (and body language is generally far more revealing about what a person's true feelings are than any other metric), so in my opinion the least Roy could have done first was to just demand that she drop her weapon rather than resort to insulting her.

[SmartAlec]

Uhmmm... considering he had just said that he was going to "kick [her] fallen ass", it doesn't seem that striking to subdue was really on his mind there.

Possibly the phrase 'kick your ass' has different connotations for you and me. To me, kicking someone's ass would be beating the hell out of them, at worst leave them as a groaning, incapacitated heap - but it wouldn't include killing them.

[EmeraldFire]

Frankly, there are more important things going on right now than Miko. The Snarl is in danger of being set loose, Xykon and his army are right around the corner, and everyone is worried that Roy hurt poor Miko's feelings? I'm sorry, but in the whole of it all, Miko's feelings are worth less than crap.

Roy knows that there are more important things going on, and she just killed his best ally in this quest. Sure Shojo wasn't the nicest old man on the planet, and he surely wasn't Roy's friend, but he helped Roy immensely in his quest to save the Gates. To say bluntly, if I were in a similiar quest, I would probably follow Roy's thinking in that moment, Deal with one threat at a time, and there is in fact NO time to sit down and talk to Miko while Xykon knocks on the front door.

[Firevalkyrie]

There was every reason to suspect that Miko was on the verge of being sorry for what she had done and then Roy had to interrupt it with a line about how nobody could possibly care what she felt.
News flash: Nobody cares how a rabid dog feels after it bites somebody, they just shoot the damn thing.

[xyzchyx]

News flash: Nobody cares how a rabid dog feels after it bites somebody, they just shoot the damn thing.Miko is human, not a canine, in spite of how much of a bitch she's been.

[Firevalkyrie]

Miko is human, not a canine, in spite of how much of a bitch she's been.
Same thing applies.

If you just shot the president, you get ONE "PUT THE GUN DOWN, MOTHER******" before you die of several 5.56mm hemmorhages. If you dropped it and you pick it up again, you're dead, no questions asked.

[Serenity]

Where do you get the idea Roy is trying to summarily execute Miko? His first strike is with the flat of his blade, dealing a good chunk of subdual damage so he can knock her out. She's a 16th or 17th level character with a shipload of HP. Impalement's a minor inconvenince for her. This is what subduing someone looks like in D&D.

[Firevalkyrie]

Where do you get the idea Roy is trying to summarily execute Miko? His first strike is with the flat of his blade, dealing a good chunk of subdual damage so he can knock her out. She's a 16th or 17th level character with a shipload of HP. Impalement's a minor inconvenince for her. This is what subduing someone looks like in D&D.
My point is that Miko's already gotten more mercy than most presidential assassins have gotten in American history, and much more than most assassins of political figures have gotten in world history (see the phrase "hung, drawn and quartered").

[xyzchyx]

Same thing applies.

If you just shot the president, you get ONE "PUT THE GUN DOWN, MOTHER******" before you die of several 5.56mm hemmorhages. If you dropped it and you pick it up again, you're dead, no questions asked.Although she had picked it up, her body language did not suggest she was presently interested in using her weapon at that time. Further, at no time was any demand to drop her weapon issued. It is that fact and that fact alone that I have a problem with. If she failed to comply at that point, then a sound beating should most certainly rightly commence. To say that's how it would have gone down anyways is a moot point because nobody can really say for certain. I can't say for certain that the approach I'm suggesting would have definitely resulted in a peaceful surrender either, but it wouldn't have cost Roy anything but a possible surprise action, which I have already asserted elsewhere he wouldn't need to utterly thrash Miko with his chosen weapon of specialization. The only reason Miko took him down last time was because all he had was a greatclub.

[Serenity]

My point is that Miko's already gotten more mercy than most presidential assassins have gotten in American history, and much more than most assassins of political figures have gotten in world history (see the phrase "hung, drawn and quartered").

That was rather directed at the people who said that Roy is acting 'just like Miko' by playing judge, jury, and executioner. Which he rather isn't.

[Setra]

Miko killed Roy's ally.

Being a firm believer in the belief of an eye for an eye (as well as Pre-emptive strike), I think Roy was perfectly justified in attacking her.

Also, his insults weren't that bad, I mean really.

[Pax_Chi]

Because he's using the exact same methods as Miko: he's assuming that he has authority and justification to execute her on the spot. You can't have it both ways: If people want to say that Miko should have arrested and tried Shojo for his crimes regardless of what potential threat he posed, I can't see how they can turn around and say that Roy can kill Miko without trial because of what potential threat she poses. Particularly in light of the fact that Roy is on record as claiming that he is more Lawful, more Good, and all around a better person than Miko.

Except that you're failing to grasp a few things:

1) Miko executed Shojo for imagined crimes for which she had no proof. She killed a helpless person with no greater justification than an idea in her head. Even if she suspected that a crime had been commited, she had no proof of the outlandish crimes she accused him of. Conversely, Roy and two others have just seen Miko commit a crime. She IS a murderer, and in that instance alone, he's got the moral high ground.

2) Roy never states that he's trying to kill her. In fact, based on the first wound he inflicts, he bashed her with the flat of his blade rather than actually cutting her. We've seen in OotS that a character with a fair bit of HP can be dropped to near dying with an attack they don't see coming. If Roy had really been out to kill Miko, we've got no reason to believe he couldn't have Naled her the same way Elan was and almost died from it. Furthermore, when he attacked, his opponent was armed, armored and quite capable of defending herself.

I'll say it again, attempting to take down a mentally unbalanced ex-Paladin who has committed murder before your very eyes on a defenseless old man does have the moral highground over a Paladin that proclaims herself judge, jury and executioner and kills someone without having any proof of the multitude of false charges against them.


And that's even assuming that Roy is fighting for Shojo, which I have my doubts about. Read panels 2-6 on the second page: he mentions Shojo once, offhand and not even by name, and Miko's sex life three times (and I'm being generous there and only counting it once a panel). Shojo is Roy's excuse, but I think what's really motivating him here is his own hatred of Miko and bruised ego from 200 comics ago when she said she wasn't interested in his Trouser Titan. Vengence and frustrated sexual desire aren't decent motivates to try to kill someone for a person of Good alignment.

But taking down a crazed ex-Paladin that just committed murder in your presence IS a decent motivation to try and take someone down.

Firstly, you're again assuming that he's trying to kill Miko again, despite opening up with the flat of his blade and commenting on wanting to kick her ass. Nowhere does he mention intending to kill her.

Secondly, Roy mentions Shojo and Miko's killing him twice before the fight, clearly establishing why he's going after her. After the fight begins, he clarifys why his performance against her has improved considerably, and then goes on to get into typical OotS banter with his opponent. Its nothing any of the main combat oriented characters in the strip hasn't done at several points. I'm not denying that Roy dislikes Miko in the extreme, but don't try to paint this as Roy simply having an excuse to go after her, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted to stay out of a confrontation with Miko in the first place.

And in conjunction with the previous statement, you're ignoring that Roy specifically states why he's going after her. Is he mad? Yes. Does he not like Miko? Definitely. Does that dislike give him a lot of insults that he's been saving for just such an emergency? Positively.

But even with all those factors in place, Roy would never attack Miko for no reason. He's had ample time to pick a fight with her if he truly desired it. What Miko did was commit an attrocity in Roy's presence that is really all the justification he needs to take her down. She's a dangerous lunatic that just killed a helpless old man in front of him. An old man who, as Roy says, was trying to keep the entire planet from being destroyed.

I'm not denying that Roy is attacking Miko out of anger, but the reasons for that anger are not simply that he dislikes her. She just committed a terrible act in his presence, one that is reason enough to try and subdue her. If it had been any other similarly deranged paladin or assassin, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because I don't think anyone would have been opposed to Roy stepping in and beating down the villain while carrying on with OotS banter.


Another question: If Roy was merely trying to subdue Miko, why would he kick off his Green Flames of Death? Energy attacks can very rarely do non-lethal damage without metamagic (I think sonic might be the only one, but I'm not even sure about that), so if he wanted to take her alive, why do something that increases his capacity to dole out deadly damage?

Maybe you haven't noticed, but Roy has no concious control over when the Green Flame kicks in, otherwise he'd be using it a lot more often. So far he's only been able to activate it twice, and the first time he did it he was completely surprised by it. There's no indication that he can kick off the flaming aura o death whenever he feels like it.

[NecroPaladin]

That was rather directed at the people who said that Roy is acting 'just like Miko' by playing judge, jury, and executioner. Which he rather isn't.

My point EXACTLY. If Roy one argues that Roy is acting 'just like Miko,' then either they're both cruel, heinous and evil or both innocent and misunderstood. Again, grade-level logic. I'd still take Vlad and Jack over Miko any day. At least they embraced their sins and didn't pull a crusader mentality. "God told me to do it. The end justifies the means. If I don't win, it's because god told me to not win. I am not responsible for acts of god."-If it weren't for the fact that she worships the 12 gods of the zodiac, that could be her slogan. I mean, she was effectively able to maintain a Lawful Good alignment in the eyes of the Miko fanboys only because she insisted that anything evil that she did was because it wasn't really evil and because god(s) made her do it because, again, it was definitely SO not evil. It's evil when you do it, though, because you don't have god(s) on your side (not exact words, of course.). I mean, of course you're good if you define what good is on a regular basis (no duh) and, I suspect, actively try to decieve yourself into believing what you do is always the best thing. Consider how entirely unsure of herself she seems without her god(s), or, more importantly, without the excuse that the god(s) told her to do it. You know, right before Roy proceeds to Judgement Day it up on her godless ass.

[Ampersand]

He's not trying to kill her. He even gives her a chance to surrender and/or get back up after bringing her to the ground. Miko wouldn't give him that chance, we can be sure.

When? The sequence goes: Roy impales Miko and she falls. She picks up her sword and begins to stand, but while doing so Roy takes another swing and she blocks it. Miko then hits him with a stunning kick and runs off.


By my count, he mentions Shojo 3 times:

Fair enough. I admit that I missed the other two. But I'd still say that he chose to focus primarily on Miko's sex life (only one of the Shojo quotes actually occurs during the battle) during the actual fight is still telling.


He doesn't know what causes the Green Flames of Death. It's not intentional.

I find it hard to believe that an intelligent fighter who graduated with a degree in battlefield tactics, and who has unlimited access to a mid-level bard, cleric and wizard, and significant access to a master swordsmith and a large deposity of magical knowledge, wouldn't know about the properties of his own sword. Even if we accept that he didn't know about it until he hit Sabine with it, he had plenty of time for Identify to be cast and/or the properties of starmetal to be researched. Roy is a smart man; I don't call attacking Miko out of character, but I would call not fully investigating the properties of the sword he has a quasi-creepy attachment to such a thing.


People need to realize that Roy appeared to hit Miko with the BLUNT of his blade when he first attacked.

That's hard to determine, being that it's a 2D comic and all. Roy's attack looks exactly the same (barring the obivious difference in weapon) at the end of page three here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html). Additionally, Roy gets a bruise on his face from lethal damage here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), and interestingly enough it's black, not red like Miko's is in 408, suggesting that the wound Roy inflicted there was more severe.


This is what I'm hearing:

Miko kills an innocent.

Thus, she is obviously Misunderstood.

Sigh. I challenge you to find and quote where I (or anyone else) has said, in serious, that Miko was just "misunderstood".

The following three statements are not mutually exclusive, as some seem to believe:

1. Miko commited an evil act, and deserved to fall
2. Roy was justifiably in-character when he attacked Miko
3. Roy screwed up royally when he attacked Miko, because he destroyed the moment of doubt she was having and cemented her deluded paranoia about the Order of the Stick.

I believe all three to be true. Just because I'm here saying "Roy screwed up" doesn't mean I'm trying to justify or excuse Miko's action. Just because Miko was wrong doesn't automagically make Roy right.


She IS a murderer, and in that instance alone, he's got the moral high ground.

This I agree on. Except I believe that Roy lost the moral high ground when he attacked Miko.

And honestly, the only reason I'm arguing against him now is that he made such a big production of claiming said moral high ground in 251. I can't say for sure that I wouldn't be critisizing him if he hadn't made his little speech, but I don't think it would be as harsh. To my eyes, in 408 Roy gives into the very same "Smite first, ask questions later" attitude that he berates Miko for having.


Roy never states that he's trying to kill her. In fact, based on the first wound he inflicts, he bashed her with the flat of his blade rather than actually cutting her

I addressed this in my reply to Shadic, so if you'd be so kind as to see above... :smallsmile:


Furthermore, when he attacked, his opponent was armed, armored and quite capable of defending herself.

The first two are undenabile, but the third I believe is up for debate. I'll grant that, since her back was to him, Roy couldn't see the clearly shocked look on Miko's face. But her words should have been enough to indicate that something was up. Roy quite clearly heard Miko, stick-up-the-ass arrogant always sure of herself Miko, clearly confused and befuddled. In fact, he replies directly to her. Up until she got a face full of Green Flames of Death, Miko was in a state where she was possibly no longer an immediate threat to anyone in the room.

It's possible that Miko's confused ramblings would have eventually have led her to attack Roy and Belkar. It's equally likely that she would have contiuned to stare googly eyed at her sword until she was led to a cell and given a copy of the paladin's code to pass the time with. By attacking her, Roy pretty much made the decision for her: either she fights back or she potentially lets a man who's admitted on numerous occasions that he hates her and really has no reason to offer her quarter kill her (I grant the potentially because there is disagreement over whether or not Roy was using lethal force).

Again, was the attack in character for Roy? Yes. Was it pragmatic, given what Roy knows about Miko's character and skills? Yes. Does it substantiate Roy's claim of moral high ground? I believe not.


If it had been any other similarly deranged paladin or assassin, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, because I don't think anyone would have been opposed to Roy stepping in and beating down the villain while carrying on with OotS banter.

If it had been a generic paladin or assassin, of course we wouldn't be having this conversation. No one gets worked up over nameless NPCs, after all. :smalltongue:

My issue stems from the fact that I believe Roy acted in a manner inconsistent with the superority he claimed over a very specific paladin. Sure, knocking the sword out of Miko's hands and demanding that she surrender wouldn't have been the most pragmatic of routes, but who ever said that being Good was easy?

I also feel that Roy had a bit more leeway here simply because Miko, at that point, was essentially out numbered three to one. Belkar might be under the Mark of Justice, but he can still provide flanking bonuses and deal non-lethal damage, and I'm sure Hinjo would have come to Roy's aid had he called. (I'm actually surprised that Hinjo didn't intervene...sure, he's grieving, but a melee breaks out in what is now his own throne room...) And that's not counting that there are at least two NPC guards right outside the doorway that who can be called in and/or sent off to fetch more guards/paladins.

[Charles Phipps]

Same thing applies.

If you just shot the president, you get ONE "PUT THE GUN DOWN, MOTHER******" before you die of several 5.56mm hemmorhages. If you dropped it and you pick it up again, you're dead, no questions asked.

I don't know. If the President is Shojo then I might give them the benefit of the doubt.

Innocent of the crimes he was sentenced to die for? Yes.

Innocent of crimes that would probably warrant death? Maybe.

[Dervag]

Where do you get the idea Roy is trying to summarily execute Miko? His first strike is with the flat of his blade, dealing a good chunk of subdual damage so he can knock her out. She's a 16th or 17th level character with a shipload of HP. Impalement's a minor inconvenince for her. This is what subduing someone looks like in D&D.Traditionally, massive damge is not represented as repeated impalement because it's unbelievable that a human being with human physiology could survive repeated impalements (just as it's unbelievable that they could survive decapitation).

I believe that the 'impale' attack has got to represent something that leaves Miko with only a small fraction of her hit points.


My point is that Miko's already gotten more mercy than most presidential assassins have gotten in American history, and much more than most assassins of political figures have gotten in world history (see the phrase "hung, drawn and quartered").You're right.


Although she had picked it up, her body language did not suggest she was presently interested in using her weapon at that time.Her body language was more or less beside the point. This woman has monk training and high dexterity; she can presumably lash out from a standing start almost instantly. Real people don't pause to read the body language of someone who just assassinated a head of state to whom they are loyal. Especially not when that person is well armed and quite possibly still capable of killing everyone in the room.


Further, at no time was any demand to drop her weapon issued.That's because she picked the weapon back up after dropping it the first time.


Fair enough. I admit that I missed the other two. But I'd still say that he chose to focus primarily on Miko's sex life (only one of the Shojo quotes actually occurs during the battle) during the actual fight is still telling.Other than "Ohmigod! You just killed Shojo!" and "He was trying to save the universe!" there isn't much to say to Miko about Shojo. Whereas the relationship between Roy and Miko specifically is almost entirely about
a)Miko's desire to cause harm to people that Roy respects and/or is loyal to; and
b)The fact that Roy used to be attracted to Miko, but eventually concluded that she is a self-righteous jerk who is far more attractive in body than in spirit.

Since Roy already covered (a) before the fight, it's not surprising that he covers (b) during it.


I find it hard to believe that an intelligent fighter who graduated with a degree in battlefield tactics, and who has unlimited access to a mid-level bard, cleric and wizard, and significant access to a master swordsmith and a large deposity of magical knowledge, wouldn't know about the properties of his own sword.I think he does know, even if he doesn't have the ability to activate it at will (if he could do it at will, he'd never stop). I've always assumed that it's one of those 'extra energy damage on a critical hit' things, like a disrupting burst weapon.


Additionally, Roy gets a bruise on his face from lethal damage here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), and interestingly enough it's black, not red like Miko's is in 408, suggesting that the wound Roy inflicted there was more severe.Possibly because being whacked on the side of the head with the flat of a +5 disrupting burst greatsword in the hands of a mid-to-high level fighter hurts more than being smacked with a spiked chain by a half-ogre. Enough to create a bloody bruise.


The following three statements are not mutually exclusive, as some seem to believe:
1. Miko commited an evil act, and deserved to fall
2. Roy was justifiably in-character when he attacked Miko
3. Roy screwed up royally when he attacked Miko, because he destroyed the moment of doubt she was having and cemented her deluded paranoia about the Order of the Stick.I would argue that both (1) and (2) are true, and that (3) is a proposition of debatable but plausible truth. We'll know whether he screwed up once we see the aftermath of his decision.


This I agree on. Except I believe that Roy lost the moral high ground when he attacked Miko.As a rule, it's best to find moral high ground that is out of artillery range.

Seriously, I think that Roy traded the moral high ground for the moral middle ground, while Miko traded the moral highest ground ("My overlord has betrayed me!") for the moral low ground ("Therefore I will kill him!")


Up until she got a face full of Green Flames of Death, Miko was in a state where she was possibly no longer an immediate threat to anyone in the room."Possibly no longer an immediate threat" is nonetheless a threat, quite probably an immediate one. A threat which might be a paper tiger is still a threat, because threats represent the possibility of harm and not the certainty of harm. Miko with sword in hand is probably as dangerous as an ordinary assassin with gun in hand. If someone is waving a gun around, you do not take the chance that it isn't loaded.


My issue stems from the fact that I believe Roy acted in a manner inconsistent with the superority he claimed over a very specific paladin. Sure, knocking the sword out of Miko's hands and demanding that she surrender wouldn't have been the most pragmatic of routes, but who ever said that being Good was easy?Does Roy have sufficient disarm skill to disarm Miko, who is a higher-level combatant with a two-handed weapon?


I also feel that Roy had a bit more leeway here simply because Miko, at that point, was essentially out numbered three to one. Belkar might be under the Mark of Justice, but he can still provide flanking bonuses and deal non-lethal damageBy what, punching her?

I don't know how Belkar's fighting style really works, but I doubt that he is competent to inflict significant damage in unarmed combat


I don't know. If the President is Shojo then I might give them the benefit of the doubt.Not if you're the Secret Service you won't. They don't stop to judge.

[xyzchyx]

Her body language was more or less beside the point. This woman has monk training and high dexterity; she can presumably lash out from a standing start almost instantly. Real people don't pause to read the body language of someone who just assassinated a head of state to whom they are loyal. Especially not when that person is well armed and quite possibly still capable of killing everyone in the room.Hey, I didn't say it was unrealistic of Roy to react the way he did, only that it was wrong. The right thing is rarely the easy thing to do, after all. All I'm saying is that he had an opportunity to do something _really_ good (show some compassion on a fallen enemy and allow her to peaceably surrender) and he instead decides to resort to insults and preemptive attacks. In this exact situation, nobody knows that she wouldn't have surrendered if told to. I equally don't know that she would have. I find any suggestion that one outcome is actually more likely than the other to be absurd at best unless said remark were to have come from Rich himself. My disappointment in Roy is that he never gave her the chance when it really would have cost him nothing to do so. And it will remain so unless some new knowledge comes to light in some future comic.

[Archangel62]

I'm not going to comment on the morality of the event because I'm honestly somewhat iffy on it too. I don't believe that what he did was 'good' but I don't call it 'evil' either.


However, given how violently Roy reacted there are several things that are going on right now with that.

1) I think some of it might be repressed anger, some of it from his attraction to Miko that went sour. His anger is both at her for not being what he wanted and at himself for seeing her for how she is now. That might explain some of it, also Roy strikes me as the dramatic fighter, he will mock and yell, remember that he went a tad ballistic when his sword was broken.

2) Roy is dealing with his own form of mental breakdown. As mentioned before, he is now even further on a mission that he doesn't want. Roy doesn't want the quest he has, the blood oath with Xykon is from his father, a father with no faith in him and precious little signs of affection or love. Roy now faces the power of Xykon and the snarl alone, and is now the sole guardian of creation. Roy knows he can't pass the buck, it's too important and he knows that his team might be the only ones out there that can. But now it is worse, Shojo might have been able to do something, hire mercenaries, call for the paladins to march, something could have been done if the order failed. Now the order stands alone on this, if they fail then all of creation is doomed. Hinjo is going to need time to cope with this, and even then he most likely won't do anything to help Roy in this, he might just tell Roy to go far away from the city and not come back. Roy has no allies, no external resources, he's back where he started and is in a lot more danger.

3) Roy wasn't being a paragon of good, but then he never claimed to be either. Roy might be a jerk, might be arrogant, might be a sarcastic SOB but the fact is that he still has a conscience and he isn't exactly in the best situation right now. Roy is probably inches from having a breakdown of his own, before he was juggling plates, now he's juggling flaming chainsaws and there are more and more that keep getting thrown into his open hands.

[Charles Phipps]

Not if you're the Secret Service you won't. They don't stop to judge.

Except the Sapphire Guard IS the Secret Service.

[Fineous Orlon]

Roy did fine. She just committed regicide, killing his most powerful ally in an insanely large task [saving the world], and she did it in one of her "darn the torpedoes, I'm absolutely right" righteous furies.

She is the senior paladin, she answers to no one save the ruler [or maybe his temporarily shocked heir].

The gods yanked her colors, why would Roy expect her to react at all reasonably?... and she is a mighty combatant.

He's tired of her high-handed ways and is ready to take her down for the act she just committed, and the Gods agree on her guilt, ...

and, yet, still, ....

He talks to Miko, does not ambush her, he just gets initiative.

He disarms Miko, and stands over her, pointing out that she is wrong in the conclusion she jumps to, although sarcastically. At the same time, he does not strike her while she is unarmed.

She advances her conspiracy theory whilst picking up her disarmed katana, and the fight is on.

Then, when Miko stops to think, he harangues her about her shortcomings in classic sarcastic-Roy style.

She then attacks him, because she has decided on her next course of action: murdering Belkar, again just because she thinks it ought to be done.

Roy was not being particularly persuasive, but really, he's arguing in classic Roy-style, and he might actually expect his over-the-top criticism to connect a few dots for Miko, I don't know. I know that I expect my argument style to do well when I'm pressed to it, why shouldn't Roy? Roy also gets witty at 'fatalistic' moments, when nothing is really working anyway, this could be that sort of moment for him.

Unfortunately, Roy does not understand Miko as well as he might, he does not reach her, although he certainly understands the threat she represents.

[SmartAlec]

When? The sequence goes: Roy impales Miko and she falls. She picks up her sword and begins to stand, but while doing so Roy takes another swing and she blocks it. Miko then hits him with a stunning kick and runs off.

Roy impales Miko and she falls. She has a stunned panel of reflection, and Roy does nothing while she has it. It's only when she picks up her sword again and starts to stand that he starts fighting again.

He's walking up to her position, not even holding his sword two-handed, as she gets back up. It looks as if he's waiting for her to get back up. That's two panels of pause in the fight, while Roy just casually walks over and stands there and Miko gets to her feet. The inference I got from that was that if she'd stayed down and not picked up her sword, he would not have attacked.

Possibly yelled a lot and said things like 'Get back up, you frigid, psychopathic bitch!', mind you - but not actually made a move until she made it clear she was going to fight on.


Fair enough. I admit that I missed the other two. But I'd still say that he chose to focus primarily on Miko's sex life (only one of the Shojo quotes actually occurs during the battle) during the actual fight is still telling.

Rather than being purely vindictive, I have the feeling that Roy is also trying to vent some rage as well as rationalise in his mind what has just occurred. He's trying to find some way to understand just why she's done what she's done, perhaps - to fit her within his worldview.

Part intentional taunting, part coping strategy.


I find it hard to believe that an intelligent fighter who graduated with a degree in battlefield tactics, and who has unlimited access to a mid-level bard, cleric and wizard, and significant access to a master swordsmith and a large deposity of magical knowledge, wouldn't know about the properties of his own sword. Even if we accept that he didn't know about it until he hit Sabine with it, he had plenty of time for Identify to be cast and/or the properties of starmetal to be researched.

The master swordsmith didn't seem to know any specifics, because the green glow was admittedly a side-effect, not an intentional effect:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

and the OOTS have only been back in Azure City for a day since rescuing Julia (it seems longer, but still, only a day). Miko interrupted Roy's 'briefing' with Shojo, so it's possible Roy was going to ask about his sword at the end of the meeting - but never got the chance.

Identify might have been able to reveal the sword's properties if it had been a permanent enchantment of some kind, but as it's not actually an enchantment but is instead a mysterious natural property of starmetal, Vaarsuvius and the rest of Azure City's loremasters would have to turn to the libraries for this one - which as I said, they haven't yet had the chance to.

Given the alleged rarity of starmetal, it's unknown to us just how much information there is on it. It's possible someone out there's written the book on it; it's possible no such information exists.

[Mr Teufel]

If instead of Roy, there had been the avatar of a NG deity standing there, it might have done the perfect thing for the situation (not the story) and talked Miko down. If she could be talked down, even by a deity's avatar. Not a foregone conclusion.

But it was Roy. Who had been rejected, repeatedly beaten and threatened with bloody vengeance by the person who had seconds ago killed a valuable ally and accused that ally and Roy of being in league with Evil on little evidence and no proof. Roy acted reasonably, if not perfectly, to the situation.

Good characterisation.

[Firevalkyrie]

Except the Sapphire Guard IS the Secret Service.
You're right. If a Secret Service agent assassinated the president, the very best they could expect is to be gunned down on the spot. More likely, they'd be spending the rest of their life growing mushrooms in the same little facility in the Rockies that Zacarias Moussaoui is sitting in.

Picking up the weapon that you just dropped after murdering somebody is a clear indication of continued lethal intent, and justification for a takedown of the strongest force that can be thrown against you.

[Ampersand]

Other than "Ohmigod! You just killed Shojo!" and "He was trying to save the universe!" there isn't much to say to Miko about Shojo. Whereas the relationship between Roy and Miko specifically is almost entirely about
a)Miko's desire to cause harm to people that Roy respects and/or is loyal to; and
b)The fact that Roy used to be attracted to Miko, but eventually concluded that she is a self-righteous jerk who is far more attractive in body than in spirit.

Since Roy already covered (a) before the fight, it's not surprising that he covers (b) during it.

But there was also (c) Miko's failings as a paladin and (d) The consequences, both immediate and longterm, of her actions that he could have covered. Roy had plenty of material he could've used without resorting to crude sexual references, and the fact that he did so in my opinion makes his attack look more petty and self-motivated.


I think he does know, even if he doesn't have the ability to activate it at will (if he could do it at will, he'd never stop). I've always assumed that it's one of those 'extra energy damage on a critical hit' things, like a disrupting burst weapon.

Definitely a possibility. The question would then become if attacking to subdue downgrades the damage on the burst as well, or if Roy got an unlucky critical hit that dealt lethal damage, however small an amount, to Miko and convinced her that he was attempting to kill her.


I would argue that both (1) and (2) are true, and that (3) is a proposition of debatable but plausible truth. We'll know whether he screwed up once we see the aftermath of his decision.

My real point is that beliving (1) and (2) does not prevent one from believing (3). My point is that there seems to be an awful lot of assumption that anyone who believes (3) must by inference believe some 4th premise in which Miko was completely justified in killing Shojo, and that by criticizing Roy we are somehow attempting to vindicate Miko (often because (5) We want to have sex with Miko's 2D pixels).


Seriously, I think that Roy traded the moral high ground for the moral middle ground, while Miko traded the moral highest ground ("My overlord has betrayed me!") for the moral low ground ("Therefore I will kill him!")

I completely agree. Miko's actions were deplorable, even if I can see exactly why she did what she did.


"Possibly no longer an immediate threat" is nonetheless a threat, quite probably an immediate one. A threat which might be a paper tiger is still a threat, because threats represent the possibility of harm and not the certainty of harm. Miko with sword in hand is probably as dangerous as an ordinary assassin with gun in hand. If someone is waving a gun around, you do not take the chance that it isn't loaded.

Agreed. I'm just disappointed how Roy chose to neutralize the potential threat she represented.


Does Roy have sufficient disarm skill to disarm Miko, who is a higher-level combatant with a two-handed weapon?

If you want to go completely by the rules (and assuming that Miko is Monk 2/Paladin 14 and Roy is Fighter 12 or 13, which I believe is the typical class/level geekery), it's pretty much come down to who rolled higher. Miko has a higher BAB, but Roy is almost certantly stronger and benefits from Weapon Focus and his sword's +5 enhancement bonus. There's also a decent chance he has Improved Disarm, as fighters typically have more feats than what they know what to do with, and you could make an argument for denying Miko the +4 bonus two-handed weapons usually receive against disarm checks because she was flat footed, obviously not battle ready, and only holding her sword in one hand.


By what, punching her?

I don't know how Belkar's fighting style really works, but I doubt that he is competent to inflict significant damage in unarmed combat

Again, going strictly by the rules, as long as he poses a significant enough threat that Miko must divide her attention between him and Roy, he provides the bonus. Remember that Miko didn't know about the Mark of Justice until Belkar started giving 30 stanza soliqueries on it.


Roy impales Miko and she falls. She has a stunned panel of reflection, and Roy does nothing while she has it. It's only when she picks up her sword again and starts to stand that he starts fighting again.

He's walking up to her position, not even holding his sword two-handed, as she gets back up. It looks as if he's waiting for her to get back up. That's two panels of pause in the fight, while Roy just casually walks over and stands there and Miko gets to her feet. The inference I got from that was that if she'd stayed down and not picked up her sword, he would not have attacked.

Possibly yelled a lot and said things like 'Get back up, you frigid, psychopathic bitch!', mind you - but not actually made a move until she made it clear she was going to fight on.

Well, if we're going to say that Miko's body language doesn't matter as long as she's holding a sword... :smalltongue:

Seriously, if that was an attempt to make her surrender, Roy did an awful job of telegraphing it. Instead of a "Damn it, stay down!" he pulls out a pair of wisecracks about how awful Miko's sex life must be. Miko really doesn't have any reason to believe that Roy would spare her at that point...after all, from her perspective, Roy is an honorless dog who just cheap shotted her and then impaled her. Roy knows that Miko has problems with subtlety, after all...going into a guard position and demanding her immediate surrender, because he had beaten her despite the fact that she gave off an ice aura that gives -5 to attack rolls would have been much clearer while still having the proper Royism. :smallsmile:


Rather than being purely vindictive, I have the feeling that Roy is also trying to vent some rage as well as rationalise in his mind what has just occurred. He's trying to find some way to understand just why she's done what she's done, perhaps - to fit her within his worldview.

Part intentional taunting, part coping strategy.

So...Roy is arriving at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support his existing emotional state? :smalltongue:


The master swordsmith didn't seem to know any specifics, because the green glow was admittedly a side-effect, not an intentional effect:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

and the OOTS have only been back in Azure City for a day since rescuing Julia (it seems longer, but still, only a day). Miko interrupted Roy's 'briefing' with Shojo, so it's possible Roy was going to ask about his sword at the end of the meeting - but never got the chance.

Identify might have been able to reveal the sword's properties if it had been a permanent enchantment of some kind, but as it's not actually an enchantment but is instead a mysterious natural property of starmetal, Vaarsuvius and the rest of Azure City's loremasters would have to turn to the libraries for this one - which as I said, they haven't yet had the chance to.

Given the alleged rarity of starmetal, it's unknown to us just how much information there

But then, how long were they in Azure City before rescuing Julia? How many days of travel did they have between Azure City and Sunken Valley, and then back again? How many days did it take them to get back to the city after the missed teleport? In all this time Roy never thought to crack a book or ask someone to make a Knowledge (Arcana) check?

[Robberbaron]

I tried to read it all, just couldn't, but I've got a question or two, you pointed at the link in your signature TinSoldier, and joked about not killing sleeping goblins, but isn't your avatar a ruthless killer from same comic? If I remember his scenes right, doubt he'd have any problems killing sleeping goblins, heck he probably would have come to the same half arsed conclusions Miko did and killed Shojo. So how do you really feel about killing sleeping goblins, comic or avatar? lol

[TinSoldier]

I tried to read it all, just couldn't, but I've got a question or two, you pointed at the link in your signature TinSoldier, and joked about not killing sleeping goblins, but isn't your avatar a ruthless killer from same comic? If I remember his scenes right, doubt he'd have any problems killing sleeping goblins, heck he probably would have come to the same half arsed conclusions Miko did and killed Shojo. So how do you really feel about killing sleeping goblins, comic or avatar? lolYes, my avatar is Kore who would kill anything, even a dwarf child, if he thought that it was tainted by evil.

I do not agree with Kore's outlook and I believe him to be a villain. However, I still think he's a cool character, especially with all of those wonderful toys that he has.

Since the goblins are the protagonists in the Goblins webcomic, I have come to have more sympathy for the monstrous races and I like to think of them as more than just XP fodder. Heck, they even have their own paladin (Big Ears) and he is as good of an example paladin as Hinjo is.

So it's kind of like having Xykon or Nale as an avatar, eh?

Although I use an avatar of Spike from Cowboy BeBop on other boards. I've been thinking of switching (it's not a stick-figure though).

[SmartAlec]

Well, if we're going to say that Miko's body language doesn't matter as long as she's holding a sword... :smalltongue:

Seriously, if that was an attempt to make her surrender, Roy did an awful job of telegraphing it. Instead of a "Damn it, stay down!" he pulls out a pair of wisecracks about how awful Miko's sex life must be.

Maybe not an attempt to make her surrender - I think Roy wants her to get back up and keep fighting so he can smack her around some more. But still, he doesn't make a move until it looks like she can defend herself from that move. There's a kind of rough fair-play in that.


So...Roy is arriving at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support his existing emotional state? :smalltongue:

Hasn't arrived at any conclusions yet; lots of thinking out loud, but rather than say 'You need to get laid', he says, 'maybe you should have gotten laid'. There's a difference there - imagine if instead of 'You are evil!' Miko was saying, 'Maybe you are evil'.


But then, how long were they in Azure City before rescuing Julia? How many days of travel did they have between Azure City and Sunken Valley, and then back again? How many days did it take them to get back to the city after the missed teleport? In all this time Roy never thought to crack a book or ask someone to make a Knowledge (Arcana) check?

I agree with you that he's been carrying around that sword for a long time without getting it checked out. All we know is, the sword fired off green energy for the first time when fighting Sabine in Azure City, and Roy had no idea how it happened. Since then, the Order left Azure City almost immediately after Elan/Nale's arrest (so it seems), spent three days trekking back to Azure City, having accidentally ended up... on a mountain range, or something. Roy went straight to Shojo, got debriefed, had a nice long sleep, went to Shojo again, ended up fighting Miko.

Ok, maybe he's had thoughts about getting it checked out, but so far, it looks like he's had other things on his mind.

[Ampersand]

Maybe not an attempt to make her surrender - I think Roy wants her to get back up and keep fighting so he can smack her around some more. But still, he doesn't make a move until it looks like she can defend herself from that move. There's a kind of rough fair-play in that.

That I can agree with. It isn't nice, but Roy's never really claimed to be nice.


Hasn't arrived at any conclusions yet; lots of thinking out loud, but rather than say 'You need to get laid', he says, 'maybe you should have gotten laid'. There's a difference there - imagine if instead of 'You are evil!' Miko was saying, 'Maybe you are evil'.

Heh...you know I only said that to be a...well, your name sake, right? :smallsmile:


I agree with you that he's been carrying around that sword for a long time without getting it checked out. All we know is, the sword fired off green energy for the first time when fighting Sabine in Azure City, and Roy had no idea how it happened. Since then, the Order left Azure City almost immediately after Elan/Nale's arrest (so it seems), spent three days trekking back to Azure City, having accidentally ended up... on a mountain range, or something. Roy went straight to Shojo, got debriefed, had a nice long sleep, went to Shojo again, ended up fighting Miko.

Ok, maybe he's had thoughts about getting it checked out, but so far, it looks like he's had other things on his mind.

All I'm sayin' is that a Knowledge (Arcana) or Bardic Knowledge check only takes one round to make...and V and Elan, respectively, should have oodles of points in those skills, by virtue of their level if nothing else. Roy had three days...I'm no math genius, but I think that's something like 259,200 rounds for the trip back to Azure City from Cliffport. And we know that V carries the components for an Identify spell with her, since she was able to ID that belt in the middle of a dungeon crawl and has had ample time and opportunity to restock since then. I can see an argument about not having time to research specifics, but logically it makes little sense to suggest that he was completely in the dark about his sword's properties...