[PF] Does smite evil work on non-evil enemies

[Feint's End]

Can smite evil affect non evil enemies? So a friend and mine had this discussion and he said none of the effects of smite evil keeps working as long as your target is non evil. In my core rulebook (6th printing) and the srd I couldn't find anything like that.

Sure the damage bonus and to hit bonus just works on evil creatures but the ignoring of DR and the bonus to AC should be working even though the target is non evil.

What is the case here? My friend told me his rulebook says otherwise.

edit: just overlooked a line ... seems like it doesn't work. the thread can be closed

[Karoht]

When in doubt, read the manual.
Smite Evil on the pathfinder srd (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Smite-Evil-Su-)
Text you are looking for...
"If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect."

Also, there is a thread designed for rule questions like this.
Simple Q&A for Pathfinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270834)
Good reading material, excellent place to post questions like this.

[Slipperychicken]

Sure the damage bonus and to hit bonus just works on evil creatures but the ignoring of DR and the bonus to AC should be working even though the target is non evil.


Close, but not quite.


Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

[Karoht]

Ninja'd you Slippery.
You're Slippin.' :smallcool:

[Ravens_cry]

What happens if a Paladin smites a good or neutral undead, like, say, a ghost of that alignment? Same thing?

[TuggyNE]

What happens if a Paladin smites a good or neutral undead, like, say, a ghost of that alignment? Same thing?

They're not evil, they just detect as evil. So yeah, it's still wasted.

[grarrrg]

There are a couple Archetype-varieties of Smite that work on non-evil (to varying degrees). Both are decidedly weaker than normal Smite though.

Holy Gun (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-gun) spends a Grit point, on a Non-Evil target, you ignore their DR.

Stonelord (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/stonelord-paladin-dwarf) gets an overall weaker ability, but can use it against anything, and uses are level/day.

[Frosty]

They're not evil, they just detect as evil. So yeah, it's still wasted.I think it depends on a creature's subtype. For example, if the smite-happy paladin accidentally smites a Good-aligned succubus...

[Keneth]

Wait, wait, what? Non-evil undead do not detect as evil, nor are they affected by smite evil. Non-evil outsiders with (evil) subtype do detect as evil, and they are also affected by any effect that would affect evil creatures (since that's a trait of the evil subtype). Stop trying to mislead paladins. :smallconfused:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Common houserule/homebrew I've seen is...

Change Smite Evil to Smite Non-Good. For every instance it says "Evil" replace it with "Non-Good".

Really expands the Paladin but keeps the idea behind it. To a Paladin anything that isn't purely good is in fact evil. Make a clause in the oath that says they can associate with Neutral (on the Good-Evil axis) but it is frowned upon.

Edit:


I think it depends on a creature's subtype. For example, if the smite-happy paladin accidentally smites a Good-aligned succubus...

Who happens to be a Paladin (3.5, look it up).

Heh, she could have fell due to associating with herself...

[Keneth]

Really? A far more common house rule I've seen is to turn Smite Evil simply into Smite. This, of course, is far less beneficial to Paladins than it is to Antipaladins and Hellknights.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Really? A far more common house rule I've seen is to turn Smite Evil simply into Smite. This, of course, is far less beneficial to Paladins than it is to Antipaladins and Hellknights.

Most people I've met wanted to keep the Paladin away from being able to Smite good aligned creatures. For the evil aligned Paladin types they just made it "Smite Non-Evil".

Of course I've also seen it where Paladins can pick up "Smite Non-Law" and "Smite Non-Chaotic" too.

[TuggyNE]

Wait, wait, what? Non-evil undead do not detect as evil

Hmm, sure enough. I'd forgotten about that change.

[Slipperychicken]

I think it depends on a creature's subtype. For example, if the smite-happy paladin accidentally smites a Good-aligned succubus...

If that happens...


Evil Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-evil)

This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.

So yeah, the good Succubus would ping on both detect evil and detect good (too bad nobody uses spell slots on Detect Good), and also suffer extra damage from both Smite Good and Smite Evil. As far as the Pally can tell, our succubus is an evil demon just like all the others.

[Keneth]

Most people I've met wanted to keep the Paladin away from being able to Smite good aligned creatures. For the evil aligned Paladin types they just made it "Smite Non-Evil".

I kinda sorta get paladin not being able to smite good creatures, but good creatures generally won't need to be smote anyway. Antipaladins on the other hand will usually have just as many evil enemies as good ones (probably more), so not being able to bring divine wrath upon them is just stupid and imbalanced in terms of game mechanics.

Simple fact is, paladins follow divine ideals, and they should be able to smite anyone that violates those ideals. Alignment shouldn't be a factor, aside from those specific exceptions where the smite is extra effective (undead, evil dragons, etc.).

In my opinion, of course. But I give a lot of love to paladins and their counterparts. Some people may disagree with giving paladins a lot of freedom, even though it usually improves gameplay substantially.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I kinda sorta get paladin not being able to smite good creatures, but good creatures generally won't need to be smote anyway. Antipaladins on the other hand will usually have just as many evil enemies as good ones (probably more), so not being able to bring divine wrath upon them is just stupid and imbalanced in terms of game mechanics.

Simple fact is, paladins follow divine ideals, and they should be able to smite anyone that violates those ideals. Alignment shouldn't be a factor, aside from those specific exceptions where the smite is extra effective (undead, evil dragons, etc.).

In my opinion, of course. But I give a lot of love to paladins and their counterparts. Some people may disagree with giving paladins a lot of freedom, even though it usually improves gameplay substantially.

Which is where the Smite Non-Lawful and Smite Non-Chaotic came from.

[Frosty]

If that happens...



So yeah, the good Succubus would ping on both detect evil and detect good (too bad nobody uses spell slots on Detect Good), and also suffer extra damage from both Smite Good and Smite Evil. As far as the Pally can tell, our succubus is an evil demon just like all the others.So a +1 Evil Outsider Bane, Chaotic Outsider Bane, Good Outsider Bane, Lawful Outsider Bane weapon would count as a +9 weapon vs the succubus? :smallcool:

[Keneth]

Which is where the Smite Non-Lawful and Smite Non-Chaotic came from.

Yes, but alignment extremes are not practical ideals. Unless you're following entities that represent those extremes.


So a +1 Evil Outsider Bane, Chaotic Outsider Bane, Good Outsider Bane, Lawful Outsider Bane weapon would count as a +9 weapon vs the succubus? :smallcool:

No, the bonuses don't stack.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yes, but alignment extremes are not practical ideals. Unless you're following entities that represent those extremes.


Except this is D&D/Pathfinder we are talking about... They are "practical ideas" within the world and the deities represent those extremes.

Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil all exist and are real defined mechanisms of the world in which the game is played in. In our world they aren't the building blocks of life but in the game... There are creatures made of pure good or evil.

[Frosty]

Except this is D&D/Pathfinder we are talking about... They are "practical ideas" within the world and the deities represent those extremes.

Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil all exist and are real defined mechanisms of the world in which the game is played in. In our world they aren't the building blocks of life but in the game... There are creatures made of pure good or evil.Not so pure if you ask me, if they can fall or be redeemed.

[Keneth]

Well, the deities represent ideals within those extremes, not exactly the extremes in and of themselves. They have portfolios, domains, and personalities.

Even though those ideals may both stem from the same extreme, there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to clash. And when that happens, a paladin should certainly be able to smite a good creature if they grossly violate their ideals.

It's far more likely to happen in case of antipaladins though.