Looking for help planning Swordmage build

[scorpious1109]

I'm starting a level 1 game, and not sure how long it's going, so looking for some help setting up the ground work for an optimal path/build for what I want to try playing.

I have in mind a Dragon Born Shielding Swordmage with frostcheese. I realize that's not the best race/class combo, but I want to go that route for flavor/rp reasons.

My questions come from choosing the optimal feat path (so far looking at Intelligent Blademaster 1st level, and obviously taking Wintertouched/Lasting Frost at 10/11 respectively).

I also am not sure how to best allocate my ability scores. We are using standard point buy, and I know Int should be highest, and to take the +2 Con option for Dragonborn racial boost and that should make it my second highest. Next in priority would be in some order Str, Dex, Wis, followed by Cha last, at likely 10 due to racial.

I was going to select the following powers: Frost breath weapon for racial, Sword Burst, Frigid Blade, Flame Cyclone, and Frost backlash.

Any help with score placing, or feat/power suggestions would be much appreciated. Most other info I found was outdated by years.

[Inevitability]

Dragonborn aren't the worst race you could have chosen. They get either secondary score, allowing you to put an 18 in your primary stat.
Also, you can be a revenant dragonborn (basically, zombie dragonborn). You gain slightly better ability score boosts, and you are still a dragonborn.

For ability scores, I'd go with these (after racial adjustments)

STR 11
CON 16
DEX 10
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 10

Intelligent blademaster is a very solid feat, so I'm not going to advise otherwise. Without it, enemies will just march past you, easily dodging your feeble attempt to hit them. With it, they'll think twice before doing that.

[NecroRebel]

Intelligent blademaster is a very solid feat, so I'm not going to advise otherwise. Without it, enemies will just march past you, easily dodging your feeble attempt to hit them. With it, they'll think twice before doing that.

This is less true if you go Str tertiary than if you neglected that stat, but still good advice. If you intend to go to paragon tier or beyond, you're going to want to think about whether you want to use heavy blades or light blades and place your stats according to what you need to to qualify for feats. Unfortunately, both feat sets require some degree of Str and Dex (heavy emphasizing Str, light emphasizing Dex), and shielding swordmages get relatively little benefit from either.

If you aren't going to go to paragon tier, frostcheese isn't really an option. The more important part of the combo is Lasting Frost, which is a paragon-tier feat. Without it, enemies aren't necessarily vulnerable to cold. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't focus all on one damage type to the degree frostcheese suggests at this point.

[windgate]

Stats can get even more complicated for swordmages as well when it comes to their defenses.

13 STR + 13 Con (feats):
Hide Armor Proficency
Hide Armor Specilization
Greater Swrodmage Warding

13 Dex (feats)
Improved Warding

15 Will or Cha (feats)
Superior Will


Becuase of those feats I tend to advocate a starting Int of 18 (after racials)

[Kurald Galain]

Hide Armor Proficency
Hide Armor Specilization
Improved Warding

Spending a feat for +1 AC is not worth it; there are plenty of better feats in the game.

Remember that getting 20 int also increases your AC by one point, in addition to boosting your attack, damage, reflex, and best skills. And you save a feat, too.

[Elkreeal]

If you are going with a Shielding Swordmage I would advise to take a good look at the level 3 encounters Dimensional Vortex and Transposing Lunge, they're both so good you'll probably take the other you don't take then at level 7. Those 2 powers will basically be usable as immediate interrupts that make you a stellar defender.

Feats: I would recommend Improved Swordmage Warding if you have the dex for it given that your Int makes your AC lower. You would either get better AC with str and going for hide or with dex and going for this, I don't think it's that bad of a trade off.

Retributive Shield would also be good if you take any of the encounter powers I mentioned above.


For the stats I would go 10/13/13/18/10/8 pre-racial If I had to make a choice based on dragonborn, this said I would reconsider the level 1 encounter power for something else.

[scorpious1109]

your Int makes your AC lower.
I could be missing something here, and let me know if I am, but don't you use int for your AC if wearing light armor and it's higher than your Dex? Which would be the case?

Ok, so the frostcheese path isn't 100% necessary, I just didn't know what else to focus on for a Dragonborn Swordmage, and the reason I wanted to go Shielding was cause I did read somewhere that's the better path.

[Cloud]

AC is determined with the better of your intelligence or dexterity modifier when using light armour, correct, so a high int governing your attack rolls and AC (and Reflex, whatever) is really important. I still wouldn't push it to 20 after racial, but certainly they're one of the classes that you could.

Shielding is far and above the better choice, ensnaring is worthless (the first step to improving it would be making the condition it inflicts last until the end of the targets next turn), and assault is...average. Swordmages are bad at damage and you really want your full +3 warding bonus.

Anyway, power wise, Swordburst is awesome, take it and love it. If you're going con secondary, frigid blade or booming blade is amazing. I personally prefer booming blade (remember you get all your static modifiers on the second dice), and if you take it just use a frost weapon in paragon tier if you want to use frost cheese (...why does everyone call it cheese, it's needed for rogues to not fall behind and in the PHB). Encounter power, I actually prefer Sword of Sigils, though Flame Cyclone is okay if you have no controller. Frost Backlash is good, though not being able to control the trigger is annoying. I also like Dimensional Thunder or Vanishing Blade.

Stat wise, Swordmages are...annoying. Do you want to use Arcane Reach or not bother with it, and do you think you'll need Superior Will? And do you think the game will reach epic?

Feats, you definitely want Intelligent Blademaster at level 1, if you can't talk your DM into a free unnerfed melee training. The fact that melee classes can't make MBAs is...is something, and really they just should be able to. >.> Also assuming you can't get your DM to give you a scaling feat bonus to attack rolls for free, level 2, expertise feat. White Lotus Dueling Expertise looks pretty good.

[scorpious1109]

To be honest, Sword of Sigils looks better, but it confuses me in all reality...

[Cloud]

On the stats, I might try this, with this aiming for Superior Will, and Greater Swordmage Warding at Paragon Tier, but not even bothering to attempt to get Improved Swordmage Warding or Arcane Reach.

Str: 12
Con: 14
Dex: 10
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

Grrh...that 18 starting Int is a killer... Those are after racial stats of course. Wisdom is always going to be your dump stat when you have a + Cha race, and 14 at heroic is 15 at paragon for Superior Will (yes, it's that worth it). Str 12 is 13 for paragon and lets you pick up Greater Swordmage Warding. Obviously you'll want to boost Int and Con at every chance you get.

Anyway, what about Sword of Sigils is confusing? It might help to think about it as it applying a special Sword of Sigils mark, it's not a mark you can respond to with your aegis, but it's also not just a standard -2 to attack rolls.

[GPuzzle]

Don't you need Improved Swordmage Warding which is an heroic feat to get Greater Swordmage Warding? Also...

It's called frostcheese because with multi-attack powers, it can become ridiculous, since the +5 applies to all attacks.

Brutal Barrage, for example. Getting to slow on hit via Hindering Shield and forced movement and using Zephyr Blade, with some extra feats (namely, Heavy Blade Opportunist and Headsman's Chop) with Frost Cheese results in the max damage done being 6Con+50+4Cha+weapon enchantment or 36+50+20+3 or 109 max damage in a single round as a defender.

[Cloud]

The prerequisites for Greater Swordmage Warding are;
Prerequisite: 11th level, Str 13, Con 13, swordmage, Swordmage Warding class feature

Anyway, I know WHY Frostcheese is called Frostcheese, I just don't think it's cheesy enough to be called cheese on its own (or even with Gloves of Ice), it's just plan needed for Rogues and well, every striker that uses weapons that isn't the ranger to actually end fights ever. ...Getting off topic but of everything you listed, Brutal Barrage is just...the king of cheese, and in my games I ban Headsman's Chop while gutting Brutal Barrage (and Brilliant Recovery).

Somewhat back on topic, I actually think Lightning or Psychic would be a better type to use from a purely defender point of view. Though Lightning needs a lot of tricks to be useful on a Swordmage so I'd lean more towards Psychic and using Psychic Lock.

[GPuzzle]

*cough* Feyslaughter *cough*

Although Lightning/Thunder (especially if you can use Dragonmarks), Psychic and Force (if you are a Wild Focus Battlemind) are not bad either...

[Cloud]

Yeah, you really need Dragonmarks in play to make Lightning worth using...but for a Swordmage if Dragonmarks are in play...you'll want Mark of Warding. That aside a Swordmage doesn't really want to give up his paragon path and take Lyrandar Wind-Rider, Sigil Carver is pretty awesome.

So yeah, still putting up the suggestion to use Psychic damage, even if the whole Dragonborn aspect doesn't provide additional support. Cold is your next best bet, but the lack of multiple attack powers or minor action powers hurt. Radiant is a possible choice as well...though again isn't a Dragonborn type, but it's one of the few ways to get an item bonus on every attack you'll do as a swordmage.

...Speaking of minor action powers, have you considered what theme you'd like? What roles are covered by your team mates?

[windgate]

Spending a feat for +1 AC is not worth it; there are plenty of better feats in the game.

Remember that getting 20 int also increases your AC by one point, in addition to boosting your attack, damage, reflex, and best skills. And you save a feat, too.

eh...
+1 (defense) is a nominal 5% reduction to the chance of getting hit on that defense. Swordmages dont really have self-healing nor inherant damage resistance. They live on their unusually high (even for a defender) defenses.

Something else to consider is the alternative higher level masterwork armor bonuses. Upgrading to hide armor allows the option of swapping 1 AC for 2 fort. Leather armor comes witht the option of boosting Reflex but that defense is already high and (of the three NADS) the least likely to be attached to status effects that will remove your immediate action punish.

For The orininal Poster I would suggest the following array for an Assault Swordmage:
12 Str
12 Con (racial applied)
18 Int
10 DEX
08 WIS
14 CHA

For the shielding version you need to get CON really high to make it an effective deterrant. That basically leaves you an 18 Int, 16 Con, 13 CHA array (starting with a 13 CHA will qualify you for superior will in epic)

Perhaps considering running as an assault swordmage and retrain into shielding at paragon when you have access to the sigil carver Paragon Path and the feat that adds an addtional 5 to the damage reduction of aegis of shielding.

[Kurald Galain]

+1 (defense) is a nominal 5% reduction to the chance of getting hit on that defense.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Point is, there are other feats that help you more. Perhaps if you're in epic tier you'd have room for one or two of these feats, but in heroic and paragon there are higher priorities.

[Cloud]

For example just at Heroic Tier you'd want to look at an Expertise Feat, Improved Defenses, Intelligent Blademaster, White Lotus Riposte, a Multiclass feat (Battle Awareness is a favourite), and Improved Initiative.

Paragon is even more crowded with Double Aegis, Winter Touched (heroic, but useless without Lasting Frost) and Lasting Frost / Psychic Lock (depending on what type you want to use), White Lotus Hindrance (a heroic feat but not good on a defender without the upgrade) and White Lotus Master Hindrance, Superior Will (heroic but that needing Cha 15), Greater Aegis of Shielding, and Greater Swordmage Warding (which is at least a +2 bonus when you reach epic tier).

Also if you're allowed Dragon Marks, Mark of Warding.

...Yes I'm aware that's more feats than you get, just making the point there are plenty of feats to look at before Improved Swordmage Warding or Armor Proficiency (hide).

...By the way, scorpious1109, there, some feat suggestions. XD

[scorpious1109]

Ok, thank you all very much, I'm gonna make try out the character tonight and see how it goes, maybe ask the DM if some tweaks can be made within reason depending on how things play out (I've received very limited response on what other people are playing despite asking a few times now).

Also, to help with stats, I decided to go with Warforged over Dragonborn, and have 13/16/13/18/12/8 after racials, which look much better given what people have suggested so far.

[windgate]

For example just at Heroic Tier you'd want to look at an Expertise Feat, Improved Defenses, Intelligent Blademaster, White Lotus Riposte, a Multiclass feat (Battle Awareness is a favourite), and Improved Initiative.

Paragon is even more crowded with Double Aegis, Winter Touched (heroic, but useless without Lasting Frost) and Lasting Frost / Psychic Lock (depending on what type you want to use), White Lotus Hindrance (a heroic feat but not good on a defender without the upgrade) and White Lotus Master Hindrance, Superior Will (heroic but that needing Cha 15), Greater Aegis of Shielding, and Greater Swordmage Warding (which is at least a +2 bonus when you reach epic tier).

Also if you're allowed Dragon Marks, Mark of Warding.

...Yes I'm aware that's more feats than you get, just making the point there are plenty of feats to look at before Improved Swordmage Warding or Armor Proficiency (hide).

...By the way, scorpious1109, there, some feat suggestions. XD

Improved Swordmage Warding and Hide Armor are mutually exclusive anyways..

Feats become even more crowded if you are an Eladrin or Hybrid.

[Swordmage]

I don't have the forgotten realms player's guide but the swordmage class has always intrigued me. In my opinion, a swordmage is a fighter that is able to enchant their, and their allies', weapons. Constitution should be high, as should intelligence. Wisdom and charisma shouldn't make a difference. Strength and dexterity at 10. Jack of All Trades might be your best bet since you're playing the basic hybrid character. Using your Dragon Breath power will be a good start for a ranged/ damaging move.

[GPuzzle]

I don't have the forgotten realms player's guide but the swordmage class has always intrigued me. In my opinion, a swordmage is a fighter that is able to enchant their, and their allies', weapons. Constitution should be high, as should intelligence. Wisdom and charisma shouldn't make a difference. Strength and dexterity at 10. Jack of All Trades might be your best bet since you're playing the basic hybrid character. Using your Dragon Breath power will be a good start for a ranged/ damaging move.

Close, but not quite. As the old Mage|Fighter, the Swordmage casts spells through his sword, enhancing his combat abilities.
And that's where everything screws up. You either us STR+INT or CON+INT. Only Genasi buff STR+INT, and only 3 races buff CON+INT, and one isn't a monster race. You're a defender, Superior Will is almost mandatory. At least 14 in either Charisma or Wisdom at level 1. DEX is good because initiative.

A good Shielding Swordmage is a Warforged with 9 points in INT, 5 in WIS, 3 in DEX, 2 in STR and 3 in CON for an array of 12/15/13/18/14/8 when starting or 13/16/14/21/15/9 at Paragon.

[Inevitability]

and only 3 4 races buff CON+INT

Had to correct you there.
Warforged, Hobgoblins, Genasi and Githyanki all boost CON+INT.

[GPuzzle]

Oh, forgot about the Genasi.