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Erock
2014-03-03, 06:38 PM
Regardless of system, for the most part, level one adventures are lethal. How do you DM them, prepare for them, play them, etcetera?

LibraryOgre
2014-03-03, 06:59 PM
A lot depends on system familiarity of the players, and, of course, system.

Lethality, IME, usually coincides with people (players AND GMs) who are not familiar with the system, and so make bad choices. They may overestimate their abilities or fail to take advantage of tactics, or simply forget things they can do.

For example, in Hackmaster, I lost a character because the GM honestly did not understand the shield rules. She was rolling full damage, expecting me to cut it in half; I was taking that as the rolled shield damage, and pretty much dying horribly.

Of course, in D&D, there's the classic "Run into a fight too big for you".

Some systems aren't that lethal, though, so even a "newbie adventure" is pretty survivable.

Friv
2014-03-03, 07:06 PM
Level one adventures are generally only lethal in games that:

a) Have Level 1 as a thing, obviously
b) Don't have any health buffer at the first level, and
c) Have easy character death as a baked-in concept.

Outside of D&D and a number (but not all) of its clones, I can't think of games where all three are true. Rifts characters aren't really applicable, nor are the Star Wars Saga characters. WHFRP stays pretty lethal straight through, and most other games don't use levels.

But to answer your question with regards to D&D:

Use an adventure that's the sort of thing that average adventurers might be called on. Build encounters out of enemies that can't one-hit-kill most players. Leave a valve so that players can surrender or be knocked out and have failure conditions other than death. Have a little toggle where, if the players win a fight against bandits they save the village, and if they lose they're sold as slaves and have to spend Level 2 escaping. That sort of thing.

Or, you know, just let half the party die, which is the OSR way.

Jay R
2014-03-03, 07:33 PM
I started a new 2E game a little while ago. When they left their village, they ran into a few goblins, who were stragglers from a larger force. By the time they had met the major force, they were second level, and there was also a force on their side.

There was one potential threat that was likely to kill them, but they didn't mess with the baby owlbear.

The real answer is for PCs to run away from threats they cannot handle.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-03-03, 10:03 PM
A lot depends on system familiarity of the players, and, of course, system.

Lethality, IME, usually coincides with people (players AND GMs) who are not familiar with the system, and so make bad choices. They may overestimate their abilities or fail to take advantage of tactics, or simply forget things they can do.

For example, in Hackmaster, I lost a character because the GM honestly did not understand the shield rules. She was rolling full damage, expecting me to cut it in half; I was taking that as the rolled shield damage, and pretty much dying horribly.

Of course, in D&D, there's the classic "Run into a fight too big for you".

Some systems aren't that lethal, though, so even a "newbie adventure" is pretty survivable.

Holy hell this this this...

I was in a Pathfinder game for the first time and my Barbarian got to go first in the battle. He charged past a bunch of monsters and attacked the main boss...

Only the DM said that they changed the rules for AoO and that even if you didn't have uncanny dodge or improved imitative (which these creatures didn't have) you could still make an AoO even if you haven't acted yet.

My Barbarian died a very sudden death.

I left the table to get food while I waited to see what would come of this. I checked the d20pfsrd real quick and found out that the rules were the same for 3.5...

DM then ruled it was to late and that my Barbarian was dead, said I could roll a new character but I just declined since how could I learn a system when the DM and other players didn't know it well enough.

Felhammer
2014-03-03, 10:45 PM
Know the system, fudge dice if things hit the fan too quickly (or come up with a good story reason as to why the bad guys aren't killing the PCs).

I played in a game once where the DM didn't understand how to properly balance encounters, and so sent 3 PCs up against 12 zombies. Only my Druid survived (because she ran out of the cave, using her lion animal companion as a meat-shield after the rest of the party died).




DM then ruled it was to late and that my Barbarian was dead, said I could roll a new character but I just declined since how could I learn a system when the DM and other players didn't know it well enough.

Sounds more like the DM thought you were abusing the system (and, honestly, your tactic was kind of cheesy (but flavorful at the same time)), so he outright cheated to mess with you. That's never the right play. Always simpler to just fudge the dice rolls and kill characters "legitimately" than to flagrantly cheat and cause hurt feelings outright .

It would be different if it was an honest mistake but that would depend fully on being there in the game, reading body language and picking up vibes. From the way you tell it, it definitely feels like he wanted to kill your Barbarian. :smallfrown:

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-03-03, 11:12 PM
Know the system, fudge dice if things hit the fan too quickly (or come up with a good story reason as to why the bad guys aren't killing the PCs).

I played in a game once where the DM didn't understand how to properly balance encounters, and so sent 3 PCs up against 12 zombies. Only my Druid survived (because she ran out of the cave, using her lion animal companion as a meat-shield after the rest of the party died).




Sounds more like the DM thought you were abusing the system (and, honestly, your tactic was kind of cheesy (but flavorful at the same time)), so he outright cheated to mess with you. That's never the right play. Always simpler to just fudge the dice rolls and kill characters "legitimately" than to flagrantly cheat and cause hurt feelings outright .

It would be different if it was an honest mistake but that would depend fully on being there in the game, reading body language and picking up vibes. From the way you tell it, it definitely feels like he wanted to kill your Barbarian. :smallfrown:

I later learned that Charging doesn't provoke attack of opportunity, at least if used as a full round action.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_charge

Use control f and search for "Charge" and take a look at the tables.

Rhynn
2014-03-04, 02:09 AM
Just have a system of PC replacement ready.

My players lost two out of three PCs and one out of four henchmen in the first session of our newest campaign (started with B4 The Lost City); they found and rescued some replacements from dungeon inhabitants, and recruited one more from locals they befriended. No more PCs have been lost since, because getting up to level 2 increased the party's survivability considerably. (A few more henchmen have been lost.)

Future parties in the same setting (in the event of TPK or retirement) would start out in a city, exploring a dungeon under the city, and would be able to replace lost members as they want.


Always simpler to just fudge the dice rolls and kill characters "legitimately" than to flagrantly cheat and cause hurt feelings outright .

That's horrible and bad GMing.

VoxRationis
2014-03-04, 02:20 AM
Your story about a 2e adventure reminds me of when I tried running a 2e campaign from level 1. My group normally plays 3.5, and they took a little while to get used to the change in lethality. In particular, one player kept rolling amazing rangers and thieves, only to lose them because he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that a level 1 thief in AD&D stands a decent chance of dying in one hit from most attacks. It got to be that the primary source of the party's income was the starting equipment of his new characters!
Player: I finally finished my new character! Charge!
[Immediate Character Death]
Later...
"Who was that guy?"
"I don't know, but he had 90 gp on him!"

Betrayer
2014-03-04, 06:21 AM
I later learned that Charging doesn't provoke attack of opportunity, at least if used as a full round action.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_charge

Use control f and search for "Charge" and take a look at the tables.

You'd still provoke an attack of opportunity by moving out of threatened squares (i.e. if you charged past someone), as usual, you just dont provoke one by making the attack at the end (that would be weird).

You'd still provoke it by running past them... but they wouldn't be able to take it if they're flat footed.

Firest Kathon
2014-03-04, 06:49 AM
You'd still provoke an attack of opportunity by moving out of threatened squares (i.e. if you charged past someone), as usual, you just dont provoke one by making the attack at the end (that would be weird).

You'd still provoke it by running past them... but they wouldn't be able to take it if they're flat footed.

Exactly. See the little 1 at the table:

Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-03-04, 07:54 AM
Exactly. See the little 1 at the table:

Sorry, I was unclear. The charge doesn't provoke from the target (unless they have a reach weapon) but the miniboss guy also got an AoO (he had no reach weapons...).

(This is what I get for staying up late and posting while watching my wife play splinter cell)

But regardless, you can't make AoO until after you acted in combat unless you have uncanny dodge or (I think) improved initiative. I charged on the first round and was killed off.

Funny enough the DM suggested I go with a barbarian since they didn't have any martial damage dealers.

GybeMark
2014-03-04, 10:12 AM
In the level 1 adventures that I've played (and GM'd) it has *usually* been with "new players" or "new GM". The GM can usually keep the players alive by fudging stuff ("You hit the fire beetle for 3 damage? What a coincidence, that's how many hit points it had!" or "The creature was looking for an easy meal, but didn't exect you to fight back, and tries to make it's escape") but the more challenging aspect is "making the adventure compelling enough to have the players come back next session".

There are books on how to write good adventures/stories, but again I'd emphasize "grab their interest early" and "guide them to the adventure" A story that starts with an action beat (your party is on it's way to Nearbyton, and are accosted by brigands along the road) tend to grab interest quick and clues (you find a note on the brigands body which appears to be a ransom letter) is a lot better than telling (especially new) players "you're in a tavern, and you can do whatever you want (but secretly, I need you to talk to the mysterious stranger in the corner to move the adventure along)"

Hope I didn't misinterpret your post :smallredface:

Lorsa
2014-03-04, 10:22 AM
I had 3 level 1 players encounter a group of about 6 level 1 orc warriors and a level 4 (I think) human fighter in a forest. They barely made it out alive through creative use of ranged hit and hide tactics, entangle and sacrifice of an animal companion. It would have worked even better if the druid had used entangle at the beginning of combat instead...

There are plenty of enemies that won't instagib a group of level 1 characters. Small goblin bands, kobolds (not the Tucker variant), dire rats etc.

TuggyNE
2014-03-04, 06:44 PM
But regardless, you can't make AoO until after you acted in combat unless you have uncanny dodge or (I think) improved initiative.

Only Combat Reflexes, actually. Uncanny Dodge lets you retain Dex to AC when flat-footed, but doesn't keep you from being flat-footed, and thus does not let you make AoOs.

Fabletop
2014-03-04, 09:37 PM
Regardless of system, for the most part, level one adventures are lethal. How do you DM them, prepare for them, play them, etcetera?

Outside of OD&D or maybe AD&D 1st ed., few games have a true level of PC mortality that impacts player decisions. Unless you're using hordes of low HD monsters or one powerful creature.

For games where PCs can perish on a bad roll, my focus is heavy exposition and character exploration. The deadly threat of violence is already there and doesn't need me beating the drum with extraordinary combat scenes.

Use combat to create suspense and player anxiety. Something low-level and manageable to just 'bloody them' and move on. Put the Cleric to work and feed player sub-plots.

It isn't until the later scenes/levels that you pour on the combat.

And present scenes that feel like combat to the players, but the monsters/NPCs are really looking for some kind of negotiation. Physical combat should be one of a few options, even at high level.

Flirt with them, then give 'em what they didn't expect.

Felhammer
2014-03-04, 09:58 PM
That's horrible and bad GMing.

Pretty much. Just saying it is a cleaner way of accomplishing that particular goal.

Talking is always preferable but, if you are going to risk group cohesion and the trust of all your players, you may as well try it in a way that makes you look less like the bad guy.