What is so bad about monks?

[atemu1234]

They have great abilities, extra attacks, a series of prestige classes to get around the multiclassing restriction, good saves. Sure they have intermediate BABs but why the hate?

[eggynack]

I'ma do this fast. Their "great abilities" are really bad, whether we're talking about the capstone of crappy feather fall or the once a week death attack, their extra attacks never hit, cause you have average BAB, no native way to move and full attack, and because you take a penalty by flurrying, the prestige classes are occasionally decent but usually not anything especially tier boosting, and you'd probably get better saves by dipping a bunch of melee classes, because that's how saves work. Don't get me wrong, you can do some cool stuff with ACF's, tashalatora, or crazy optimization of another kind, but the base class is really bad.

[Amphetryon]

They have great abilities, extra attacks, a series of prestige classes to get around the multiclassing restriction, good saves. Sure they have intermediate BABs but why the hate?

They have abilities to go quickly, with a special attack routine that's predicated on standing still. The lack of full BAB OR Magic means they have a hard time actually hitting level-appropriate enemies beyond the lowest levels, particularly when the enemy can fly or otherwise avoid standing right in front of them. Though AC isn't necessarily a wonderful asset, they have a hard time keeping their AC relevant, particularly at lower Point Buys or with less than stellar rolls. On the subject of rolls, their abilities require an above-average STR, DEX, CON, and WIS in order to function as designed.

[SinsI]

1) Multiple Attribute Dependency
2) Lack of Ability Synergy

[Rubik]

I'd like to reiterate everything everyone said above. (Seriously? They have a piss-poor version of Feather Fall as a capstone? FAIL.)

They do optimize well if you know what you're doing, but it takes a lot of sideways thinking and splatbook-diving to reach anything approaching competence.

[atemu1234]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.

[Story]

Have you tried searching online? This topic comes up with such regularity that it has been nicknamed Monkday.



I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.

Fighters are pretty bad too, but at least they can hit things, unlike Monks. Flurry of Misses is so infamous that it was even referenced in OOTS. Neither class is worth taking more than 2 levels of though.

[atemu1234]

Also, I like the impoverished monk (BOED) it goes well with weapon finesse and is a very useful combatant. I would say they aren't really a player race, though. Their design is best suited to an NPC in the correct environment.

[Juntao112]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.

How much damage is your monk doing at, say, level 10 if you don't focus on strength?

[atemu1234]

If you focus on dexterity, about 8 points per hit, at three hits a round. They are better with the ascetic rogue and vow of poverty feats, though.

[Story]

Also, I like the impoverished monk (BOED) it goes well with weapon finesse and is a very useful combatant. I would say they aren't really a player race, though. Their design is best suited to an NPC in the correct environment.

I couldn't find any reference to Impoverished Monk. Perhaps you were thinking of Vow of Poverty, the feat infamous for tricking people into crippling their characters even more?

Seriously, just Google it. All of this has been explained in great detail countless times before.

[Rubik]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.Monks do horrible damage at anything but levels 1-3 unless you either focus everything you've got on Strength and find ways to make non-monk weapons into monk weapons, or you pimp the hell out of your unarmed strike. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) Remember what I said about optimization and sideways thinking? Keep that in mind as you read through that link. It took a LOT of doing to get that build -- far more trouble than most people would go for in a real game -- and it doesn't even kick in until you start into middle levels, since it's mostly WBL abuse.

And avoid VoP like the plague. It's a trap!

[eggynack]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.
They get many attacks, but those attacks, unlike those of the rogue, have no source of bonus damage. They also only get those attacks if they are standing right next to an opponent on the start of their turn, which is a rather unlikely thing, really. Fighters, as you noted, get a lot of bonus feats, and they usually have better HP, damage, and AC, because of factors. Fighters do still receive a decent amount of vitriol though. Just not as much, cause there's more reason to hate monks.

Edit:
If you focus on dexterity, about 8 points per hit, at three hits a round. They are better with the ascetic rogue and vow of poverty feats, though.
That's a very low amount of damage. And VoP is really bad.

[atemu1234]

I ran it with a 14th level monk. The NPC beat a group of players of the same level.

[Story]

The best way to optimize a monk is to not take any levels in it. Tashalotora is awesome like that.

Anyway, I'd recommend searching for the previous threads.

[SinsI]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.

Totemist is designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round. Monk is designed to flail his useless hands around in hopes of hitting anything.

[atemu1234]

And now I'm pretty sure I opened Pandora 's Box here.

[Rubik]

And now I'm pretty sure I opened Pandora 's Box here.Stick around for a few months. You'll find this exact topic comes up weekly -- and usually on Mondays, no less.

There's a reason we use the term "Monkday," after all.

[Captnq]

Out of core, they suck. HARD. No need to repeat why. Its all here.

However, there are a few unique opportunities only monks have. If you dumpster dive, you can stack some really wacky abilities together. For example, I know of no other way to get over 40 levels of weapon enhancements and Weapon Special Abilities on one attack without using a monk or going epic. If you are willing to chop off arms and legs and graft new and interesting things to your body, you can go from +1 or 2 extra attacks to 30 extra attacks. It's the synergy with natural attacks that really makes it possible.

Yeah, you can do the same thing with other melee classes, but not as cheap, not as easily.

As it stands, Two levels of monk will do you, but the best I've squeezed out is 11th. After that, wasted levels. Still, it makes for an interesting platform for some serious rules abuse.

[atemu1234]

I still think the ascetic feats do a good job optimizing it.

[Rubik]

I still think the ascetic feats do a good job optimizing it.You poor soul. They've brainwashed you, too.

[Story]

Even in that case, you only need 1 or 2 levels to get everything that Monk gives you.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think we need someone to do some math proofs for the OP and help him recalibrate what competent means. Anyone wanna take up that job?

[eggynack]

I think we need someone to do some math proofs for the OP and help him recalibrate what competent means. Anyone wanna take up that job?
Which version of that should we do? The chargebarian version that outdoes this monk's stats on every possible level, or the druid version that outdoes this monk's stats on every possible level with just the animal companion?

Edit: Wait a sec, I'm already creating a fancy natural bond using fleshraker for an 8th level druid for that fighter/druid comparison thread. I'll just use that in two threads at once. Sweet.

[ryu]

Which version of that should we do? The chargebarian version that outdoes this monk's stats on every possible level, or the druid version that outdoes this monk's stats on every possible level with just the animal companion?

Just for proof of concept I say both. Also pointing out how much earlier everyone else in the class pool already got access to their toys. Including the stuff that imitates spells badly. ESPECIALLY the stuff that imitates spells badly. For my part in all this the OP is welcome to make a monk build of any level he likes, and I'll show what a wizard of the same level will be doing with regularity.

[eggynack]

I'ma just start with Jake the Dinosaur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=817089), for maximum efficiency based superpowers. For reference, it's a fleshraker at level 8 with natural bond and free half-orc granted toughness, cause that's in the stuff in the druid build.

[Amphetryon]

I still think the ascetic feats do a good job optimizing it.

The ascetic Feats make it even harder for a Monk to deal with opponents who are not standing on solid ground directly in front of the Monk, barring a Monk with built-in alternate Movement modes.

[Story]

I think we need someone to do some math proofs for the OP and help him recalibrate what competent means. Anyone wanna take up that job?

It'd be a lot easier to direct him to the existing threads where this was already done.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I think Monks would be not-terrible if they got Bardic or even Paladin/Ranger spell progression and some decent spells on the list. Especially with ACFs, they DO have some interesting abilities to work with, they just lack power and synergy in every conceivable way. Some spells, even just some things in line with what Spell Compendium did for Paladins and Rangers, could certainly bump them a tier.

As they are though, they suck because they can't do a lot well and each thing that they might try to do well relies on a different one of their stats. They can't do much damage, they can barely land the hits with which they try to do so, and their class features are conflicting and, while very interesting and useful in concept, were executed extremely poorly as described above.

[Nihilarian]

Tashalatora fixes pretty much every problem a monk has. You still don't want to take more than 2 levels, and by RAW you don't have to take any at all.

[TuggyNE]

They have great abilities

While most of the problems with the Monk have been gone into rather thoroughly, you may find this specific exploration of the greatness (or lack thereof) of Monk's class features helpful.

There's also a thread with a lot of detailed replies early on.

[Incanur]

Monks benefit more than any other class from polymorph spell abuse, but that's not necessarily a point in their favor. :smallwink:

At low levels, the biggest problems are being MAD as a hatter, not being able to use good weapons, and not being able to wear armor. You usually end up with a character with mediocre hp, mediocre AC, mediocre to hit, low damage, ok skills, and decent saves. That's not exactly a winning combination.

But if if the party wizard polymorphs the monk into a giant after casting greater might wallop on the monk's unarmed strike, watch out!

[Snowbluff]

Tashalatora fixes pretty much every problem a monk has. You still don't want to take more than 2 levels, and by RAW you don't have to take any at all.

Is it enough for everyone to know I hate monk? This is a good solution.

Also, it is the first in a long line of "It's this but Asian and bad" classes.

[Magikeeper]

Query: How did the fight with the level 14 monk go?

Also, the strength or weakness of VoP depends on the game. It is a set source of power that is well below what can be done. In a party that has roughly the amount of gold WBL says they should have and is using it in a somewhat optimized fashion VoP tends to leave you behind on account of not including some stuff high level PCs really want (Like a way to fly). However! In a game with unusually low wealth or some other reason for items to not be as awesome VoP can come out far ahead.

Another thing to remember is you might be optimizing the monks more than anyone else is optimizing their characters. If class X can be 50% better than class Y, but is in the hands of someone that only knows how to play class X at half its potential, then class Y might seem to be the more powerful class.

Not to mention hitting level 14 pcs is likely much easier than hitting the average CR 14 monster - raising AC without templates or being a monstrous race is difficult without heavy optimization. Humanoids in general are much better opponents for a monk than, say, a dragon.

[Quorothorn]

I ran it with a 14th level monk. The NPC beat a group of players of the same level.

I am curious on how, exactly, this managed to happen.

[Sir Chuckles]

I am curious on how, exactly, this managed to happen.

Usually when you hear "This Monk did extremely well" it's a case of the Monk having massive and unreasonable stats due to fiat, the player is outplaying everyone else, and/or he's heavily optimized against, say, sword/board Fighter who's using a shortsword and skill focuses.

[Amphetryon]

Usually when you hear "This Monk did extremely well" it's a case of the Monk having massive and unreasonable stats due to fiat, the player is outplaying everyone else, and/or he's heavily optimized against, say, sword/board Fighter who's using a shortsword and skill focuses.

This, or the Dice Gawds smiled upon the Monk Player and rained hate down on all who opposed him.

[Captnq]

Usually when you hear "This Monk did extremely well" it's a case of the Monk having massive and unreasonable stats due to fiat, the player is outplaying everyone else, and/or he's heavily optimized against, say, sword/board Fighter who's using a shortsword and skill focuses.

Oh, just optimized.

Take a monk. They come with 9 locations that are always at the ready. You can implant cold iron or silver at any location. The implants cost 300. add 300 and they are now masterwork. Minimum +1 EB, and now you can add up to +9 WSAs to any of the nine locations, and unlike a fighter who can only have two weapons ready at a time.

The we add Necklace of Natural Weaponry (+10 to each location). I add a ward cestus (one to each hand. Each non-hand ward cestus needs the WSA Opposable. Still, only losing one +1wsa.) The Ward Cestus needs a minimum +1 EB. So we're only getting +9 WSAs out of them. Now we get Bracers of Striking. Very expensive, and only for the monk's hands, but still, good enough. Another +10.

If you want to get stupid and burn some levels, Kensi class allows another +9 WSAs

Total +1 EB, WSAs +9+10+9+10+9 = 47.
Then we add greater magic weapon +5. Makes a monk's hands the equivalent of a +52 weapon.

Now, pouring THAT much money into a single attack is stupid. Especially when you can buy each WSA in a different body location for so much cheaper then putting everything into one location.

Get a beekeeper's outfit. Technically it's not armor, but you can put Armor Special Abilities into it. Have fun with that.

Grafts and monks are fairly cool. Monk's an poison become very nasty when you are going for touch attacks. Then the number of attacks becomes far more important then the damage.

But like I said, Dumpster diving.

[Rubik]

Oh, just optimized.

Take a monk. They come with 9 locations that are always at the ready. You can implant cold iron or silver at any location. The implants cost 300. add 300 and they are now masterwork. Minimum +1 EB, and now you can add up to +9 WSAs to any of the nine locations, and unlike a fighter, you can only have two weapons ready at a time.

The we add Necklace of Natural Weaponry (+10 to each location). I add a ward cestus (one to each hand. Each non-hand ward cestus needs the WSA Opposable. Still, only losing one +1wsa.) The Ward Cestus needs a minimum +1 EB. So we're only getting +9 WSAs out of them. Now we get Bracers of Striking. Very expensive, and only for the monk's hands, but still, good enough. Another +10.

If you want to get stupid and burn some levels, Kensi class allows another +9 WSAs

Total +1 EB, WSAs +9+10+9+10+9 = 47.
Then we add greater magic weapon +5. Makes a monk's hands the equivalent of a +52 weapon.

Now, pouring THAT much money into a single attack is stupid. Especially when you can buy each WSA in a different body location for so much cheaper then putting everything into one location.

Get a beekeeper's outfit. Technically it's not armor, but you can put Armor Special Abilities into it. Have fun with that.

Grafts and monks are fairly cool. Monk's an poison become very nasty when you are going for touch attacks. Then the number of attacks becomes far more important then the damage.

But like I said, Dumpster diving.This is basically what I did in that monk build I linked above, only I didn't have enough money to boost everything. However, I still ended up with a +30-something weapon (depending on how many +'s were active at any given time), which isn't too terribad, I think. I definitely had fun with the special weapon abilities, though. Yay ghost touch and throwing.

[Felhammer]

I always liked that Eberron feat that allowed Monks to use Longswords as Monk Weapons. Felt like Mugen from Samurai Champloo.

Still, on the whole, Monks are MAD as heck and lack the ability to keep pace both in terms of damage and AC as compared to other melee classes.

[Captnq]

I think that's what monks fun. They are so damn difficult.

Fighter? Easy. Big sword. Make sword bigger. Add power attack. Attack. Add trip or something that makes it easier to hit so I can apply more power attack.

Monks? You have to come up with some crazy crap to make them work. A protector against garottes isn't armor, but it has an AC. Therefore you can enchant it like armor. Same thing for beekeeper outfit. The fact you have to run into battle wearing a neckbrace and a beekeeper outfit is stupid as hell, but you can stack multiple layers of ASAs on it and armor crystals. You look stupid, but you have defenses. So much work...

If I put in that much work, I must like it, right?

Right???

[sambouchah]

Pretty sure everyone already said the usual stuff.

As much as Monks are hated here, play whatever you want to play! It's part of what makes the game fun! Don't let all of us deter you from playing something you like. Tbh this sight has kinda ruined playing characters for me for this reason. I'm stuck in tiers rather than what I want to play.

[Rubik]

Pretty sure everyone already said the usual stuff.

As much as Monks are hated here, play whatever you want to play! It's part of what makes the game fun! Don't let all of us deter you from playing something you like. Tbh this sight has kinda ruined playing characters for me for this reason. I'm stuck in tiers rather than what I want to play.The tier system just tells you how much work you need to do compared to the other people in your group to compete effectively, and how much work the DM has to put in to keep things challenging but not overwhelming.

Monks are fine in a group with a healer, an adept, and a samurai.

Not so much with an artificer, psion, and druid.

[TheIronGolem]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned it by now since it's practically required in Monk threads, but an unarmed Swordsage makes a better Monk than a Monk, both mechanically and thematically.

[Vinyl Scratch]

Out of curiosity, what things did the monk class do right?

[eggynack]

Out of curiosity, what things did the monk class do right?
I can't think of much. If there's anything they did right, it's creating a class whose abilities somehow resonate with players, with a combination of ability density and coolness. The abilities are bad, but they certainly resonate. Even something as craptacular as slow fall is full of flavor.

[Telonius]

We really need a standard script for this.

- Why are monks bad?
- Features are awful, non-synergistic abilities, bad BAB, MAD.
- But what about VoP?
- Standard WBL gets you more. The math's been done.
- My Monk was awesome.
- Good for you. What was the build? One case doesn't invalidate the general principle.
- Okay, compared to a munchkin powergaming a wizard, of course it's going to seem like Monk sucks. But no sane DM is going to allow those shenanigans.
- Shenanigans or not, almost every other class (including the melee base classes) does better at whatever its role is supposed to be, than the Monk does at its own role. (Remind me what role that's supposed to be, by the way?)
- With a couple of houserule changes, Monk would be totally fine.
- If you've found a way to have more fun, way to go! But you can't really generalize houserules. If you have to fix it, that means the existing class had something wrong.
- I've heard something about partially-charged wands...
- No. Just no.

[Story]

How can you simultaneously classifier the Beekeeper outfit as armor so that it is enchantable, and yet nonarmor so it doesn't interfere with Monk abilities? It's very 1984.

[Sir Chuckles]

I can't think of much. If there's anything they did right, it's creating a class whose abilities somehow resonate with players, with a combination of ability density and coolness. The abilities are bad, but they certainly resonate. Even something as craptacular as slow fall is full of flavor.

A buttload of fancy abilities that SOUND cool.
That's why it's so popular to new players. I mean seriously, look at the class feature block and compare it to a Wizard or Cleric list.

[Theomniadept]

I know I am re-hashing everything that has been said one bajillion times before, but I have to reiterate this because I had a stone-headed player not understand why monks sucked and that you cannot just 'play them right'.

First of all, monks do no damage. None, nada, zip zilch, nil. Seriously think for one moment; you are doing less attacks than a two-weapon Fighter (and we all know how bad Fighter is). You are so Multiple-Ability-Dependent that even with maxed out strength you are throwing exactly five attacks a round. Five attacks at a crappy base attack of 3/4. At best your flurry has no penalty, at worst it has a -2 on top of average BAB. You are operating more than several levels behind what any other martial character is doing. It isn't until level 12 that your fists do 2d6 damage. The Barbarian has been doing that since level 1, with full base attack and 1.5x his strength modifier.

So you say Monk has a lot of abilities by comparison, right? Let's look at those.

1. Bonus feats. Honestly, 1, 2, or 6 levels of monk are the correct, optimal dip amounts to take depending on build. Base monk just doesn't get the number of feats necessary to do anything. You can choose to get Improve Trip? With what trip weapon, your light unarmed strikes that take a -4 for being light weapons? And how are you going to grapple enemies when the only real thing that matters is character size? Also, grappling ceases to exist upon the existence of Freedom of Movement.

2. Fast Movement. This might be handy early on, situationally. If you aren't flying, burrowing, or swimming, then you aren't moving, and this ability might as well not exist.

3. Still Mind. Oh boy, a +2 against Enchantment. Mind Blank becomes a necessity for all player so yet again we have an ability that ceases to exist.

4. Ki Strike lololololol. At level 4 your fists/monk weapons become treated as magic, which the Fighter had a level or two earlier (and possibly with a special material). At level 10 you get Lawful added onto this - honestly, I want to know when this has ever, ever, ever, in any game played anywhere at any time on the planet been a relevant ability that allowed a monk to overcome DR. Then, at 16th level, close to the end of even the longest of campaigns, you get Adamantine tacked onto your fists, over ten levels past the point when it was relevant. What do you even think you're going to do with this? Sunder? With your -4 penalty light fists and your average BAB? Yet again an ability that not only ceases to exist, one that never even existed.

5. Evasion. Two levels of monk is good for this if you need them bonus feetz. Nine levels for Improved Evasion? No thanks. Still at least this puts your good saves to some kind of use.

6. Slow Fall hahahahahahahahahaha really? If you're falling you are not near some sort of ledge. Look at that ridiculous growth of Slow Fall! Falling is a rare occurrence and even then after so many levels you need the ability to fly, so here we are at yet another ability that stops existing.

7. Purity of Body - the only disease that ever exists in a game is Mummy Rot. This does not protect from that like the 3rd level Paladin's Divine Health. Useless from the get-go.

8. Wholeness of body - Twice your level in healing. Whoop. De. Doo. By the time you get this your entire party can be packing cheap healing belts that will make this ability never come into play. I'm starting to see a theme here.

9. Diamond Body. Immunity to poison is good, admittedly, but why does the monk get all kinds of redundant defenses? You already have good Fort saves and being a melee character you need Constitution to stay alive, so you effectively immunized the chance of rolling a 1 or 2. Kinda meh but look how long it took us to reach a level with some actually tangible ability. We're not even comparing this class to others, we're just objectively judging abilities against a blank.

10. Once per day Dimension Door is at least a spell. That's at least another tangible ability, if it weren't for all wizards having this by level 7 (sorcerers by 8).

11. Diamond Soul. Nice spell resistance but the best spells in the game? No SR. Also not worth it since a caster will ignore the ineffective monk and kill all his friends before he tries to focus down some guy who has zero ability to stop him.

12. Quivering Facepalm. The game designers weren't exactly intelligent in the beginning of 3.5; someone thought per week would be a good limit, despite the fact that all it does is make players adventure one day of the week (looking at the useless Paladin Remove Disease).

13. Timeless Body at 17. This is what again? If you're playing a monk starting at level 17, you can simply say you adventured and then quit for a bunch of years so you get +3 to all mental stats. Otherwise, if you are actually leveling one at a time up to this point, you either have to convince the group to stop adventuring for years, or, as is expected, this ability does nothing.

14. Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Stupid name, first off. Also, excuse me sir, the Wizard has been able to cast this since level 5, the Cleric since level 7, and 11th level casters with Permanency can, in fact, take a hit to experience to gain the exact same ability it took Monk 17 levels to get.

15. 19th level etherealness for a single round. I just....I just don't The casters have been doing this for so long multiple times per day. One round? How situational is a singular round???

16. And we come to the end of our terrible journey. As an outsider, you can be banished off of different planes of existence, meaning you gained a weakness. Congrats. DR 10/magic. Holy moly, I actually forgot how bad the last level of monk was. That damage reduction doesn't even exist; everything has been magical for 15 levels! More useless waste of pencil lead on your character sheet.

Now let's look at this link here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12198.msg414297#msg414297) and look at exactly how the Monk base class is actually weaker than the NPC classes Adept and Expert.

Now, don't get me wrong; there are some things Monk can do. In the RAW failures threads somewhere it was determined a monk can actually Two-Weapon Fight by using his Flurry of Blows attacks all as his primary attacks via unarmed strikes and he can gain off-hand attacks as long as he is using a monk weapon in his other hand to deliver them, which actually makes the monk a little better.

Additionally, Monk can take Drunken Master, which is more powerful than people give it credit for. You basically take a permanent -4 on attack rolls (ouch) for using improvised weapons, but you deal an additional 1d12 damage with said weapon. Also, if you are swinging something like a Starmetal Folding Chair and you enchant said chair as a weapon the Drunken Master can actually apply 1.5x his strength modifier on attacks (a massive boost to real damage), and his Drunken Master ability to charge any way he wants to gets rid of that annoying straight-line rule the Chargebarian needs to listen to.

Still that's very limited optimization. The argument of Vow of Poverty monks has been shot down into the garbage can years ago. Vow of Poverty at almost every level gives you less than the normal Wealth-By-Level, and PCs at high levels really need the +5 tomes that boost their necessary stats (not available with VoP unless you can actually cast Wish/Miracle 5 times in a row and you sacrifice the necessary XP).

[Coidzor]

Wow. That took thirty seconds. I'm legitimately impressed. I like the class, but taking weapon finesse simplifies it a lot. They're designed to one-shot an opponent with a high number of attacks per round, not unlike the much-loved rogue. I'm more curious why they get more hate than, say, fighters. Though, granted, i do love the bonus feats.

Their bonus damage isn't sufficient to down relevant opponents quickly, their MAD and lack of ability to get decent attack bonuses precludes their attacks from hitting reliably.


If you focus on dexterity, about 8 points per hit, at three hits a round. They are better with the ascetic rogue and vow of poverty feats, though.

What are you fighting at level 10 that dies in one round from attacks that deal only 8 points of damage? :smallconfused: If something has even DR 5 that completely neuters that damage output.

[eggynack]

A buttload of fancy abilities that SOUND cool.
That's why it's so popular to new players. I mean seriously, look at the class feature block and compare it to a Wizard or Cleric list.
Pretty much, and they sound damn cool. The crappy ability comparison becomes a bit less monk-favoring, however, if you look at druids. Monks and druids are oddly similar in a lot of ways, which is part of why I like comparing them so much.

[Coidzor]

Out of curiosity, what things did the monk class do right?

I'll let the Wizards site field this one.


MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a)

Emphasis added.

[Rubik]

If you focus on dexterity, about 8 points per hit, at three hits a round.You realize that the barbarian with his greatsword was doing more than this at level 1, right?

[squiggit]

You realize that the barbarian with his greatsword was doing more than this at level 1, right?

The barbarian would be outclassing the monk even if he only had a mediocresword.

[TheIronGolem]

Out of curiosity, what things did the monk class do right?

Its abilities, though poorly supported by the rules and bad at interacting with each other, are pretty flavorful.

Take Slow Fall, for example. As written, it takes you twenty levels to almost do something a Sor/Wiz can do right out of the gate. Lame. But if it was frontloaded so that you got the "any distance" version right away, that would make for a pretty neat little utility power.

Then there's Abundant Step. Sweet, you can teleport! Fluff it as a "flash step" or something, whatever fits! Zap over to the Big Bad in one step and whale on him all Bruce Lee sty- nope! Standard action, no attack for you! Your superpower is to set him up to get a full attack on you. And with only one use per day, its use as a utility power is niche at best. But make it a move action with scaling per-day, and you'd have another Nice Thing.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: You can speak any language...many, many levels after language barriers have ceased to be a meaningful obstacle. Hooray.

Wholeness of Body would be very useful if it wasn't limited to 2 HP per level per day. The Monk really ought to be the guy who can say "I'm good, save it for the others" when the Cleric starts passing out the heals.

[The Trickster]

Out of curiosity, what things did the monk class do right?

To be honest, monk could be considered one of the better designed classes, if you think about it. It is one of the only classes that gives the player something at every level (other then just number increases). The class features look nifty on paper too. It's just bad that so many other classes are more powerful than the monk, or can do his job better.

Oh and by the way, happy monkday everyone.

[Rubik]

To be honest, monk could be considered one of the better designed classes, if you think about it. It is one of the only classes that gives the player something at every level (other then just number increases). The class features look nifty on paper too. It's just bad that so many other classes are more powerful than the monk, or can do his job better.You'd have a point if 90% of the abilities meant anything at all.


Oh and by the way, happy monkday everyone. I'm holding out for ToB Tuesday.

[Sir Chuckles]

The barbarian would be outclassing the monk even if he only had a mediocresword.

Hell, I think a Barbarian could out match that punch at Lv1.
(Half-Orc 20str, rage to 24, 1d3+6....yup.)

[Coidzor]

Hell, I think a Barbarian could out match that punch at Lv1.
(Half-Orc 20str, rage to 24, 1d3+6....yup.)

And TWF with it with the right ACF, which is a potential advantage since TWF with Unarmed Strikes seems to be generally forbidden without explicitly being allowed to do so.

And Barbarians can get Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), so that's two ways they have available to them to "flurry" better than the Monk. Especially since Whirling Frenzy cancels out the penalty it imposes to attack rolls with the bonus to Strength while also increasing the damage output, because Strength.

[The Trickster]

Hell, I think a Barbarian could out match that punch at Lv1.
(Half-Orc 20str, rage to 24, 1d3+6....yup.)

Heck, when the barbarian takes Superior Unarmed Strike at later levels, he would be better at unarmed strikes at later levels.

[eggynack]

Hell, I think a Barbarian could out match that punch at Lv1.
(Half-Orc 20str, rage to 24, 1d3+6....yup.)
If you seek a punch that exceeds that of this oddly weak-fisted monk, why not switch out the race to orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm), or even water orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs) if you really want some melee power. So, punch: out-matched.

[cakellene]

Wouldn't a monk with shadow blade do more than the barbarian?

[Rubik]

Wouldn't a monk with shadow blade do more than the barbarian?Considering that the barbarian only needs Str as opposed to both Str and Dex, and the monk needs to burn multiple feats to grab a shadow hand stance (plus Shadow Blade itself), whereas the barbarian gains more for his money with just Power Attack, a two-hander, and Shock Trooper? Most assuredly not.

[eggynack]

Wouldn't a monk with shadow blade do more than the barbarian?
I dunno. Are we talking about this weird level one versus eight comparison, or a real level eight versus eight comparison? I don't think anyone thinks that an actually optimized eighth level monk would lose in a damage contest against an optimized first level barbarian. Unless they would, cause that'd be interesting. The point is that this specific monk is dealing a ludicrously small amount of damage.

[cakellene]

Considering that the barbarian only needs Str as opposed to both Str and Dex, and the monk needs to burn multiple feats to grab a shadow hand stance (plus Shadow Blade itself), whereas the barbarian gains more for his money with just Power Attack, a two-hander, and Shock Trooper? Most assuredly not.

Why would the monk need Str?

[Rubik]

Why would the monk need Str?Because Shadow Blade gives Dex + Str, and you still get better returns from Str on 2-handed weapons.

That, and Weapon Finesse is yet another feat that the monk doesn't need to spend to get the same benefits as the barbarian.

[Averis Vol]

The thing I like about monks was that up until the unarmed swordsage (Which I never got to play because my DM was a "core only purist" and I was a horrible munchkin for even asking, hngggg..) it was really the only openly supported unarmed fighter, and as a martial artist, that appealed to me, because I could understand it (This is before I started studying medieval combat)

now that I have a bit more system mastery, I still like monk for a couple levels, because I like deflect arrow but I REFUSE to take the pre req feats, and I really like invisible fist; I think it works well with hit and run fighter, shadowblade and gauntlets of the dwarven forge,as well as gives the monk some utility. (note I said some).

In reality, the monk is only a few house rules away from being atleast barbarian or ranger level usable; things like flurry as a standard, fixing their special ability progression (bringing quivering palm down a few levels, advancing slowfall faster, giving actual ki abilities besides that hunk of crap ki strike) and giving them better BaB, because no primary combatant should have gimpy BaB.

[Douglas]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned it by now since it's practically required in Monk threads, but an unarmed Swordsage makes a better Monk than a Monk, both mechanically and thematically.
A Fighter focused on unarmed combat makes a better Monk than an actual Monk, and I recall some thread on these boards coming up with an actual Fighter build to demonstrate it.

[Hytheter]

I think the Monk's issue is that it's a badass normal, in a world where normal=dinner. Some of those class features would be awesome in another setting - Slow Fall would be super cool except that Feather Fall exists in the same universe.

How do you think Monk's would perform in a zero magic setting - no casters, no magic items, mundane enemies etc?

[Rubik]

I think the Monk's issue is that it's a badass normal, in a world where normal=dinner. Some of those class features would be awesome in another setting - Slow Fall would be super cool except that Feather Fall exists in the same universe.

How do you think Monk's would perform in a zero magic setting - no casters, no magic items, mundane enemies etc?Without magic items? Pretty badly. A warblade or crusader would do well, however.

[Sir Chuckles]

I think the Monk's issue is that it's a badass normal, in a world where normal=dinner. Some of those class features would be awesome in another setting - Slow Fall would be super cool except that Feather Fall exists in the same universe.

How do you think Monk's would perform in a zero magic setting - no casters, no magic items, mundane enemies etc?

The same way any other class would react.
T1, T2, and parts of other Tiers simply would not exist. It would still be low-tier, falling behind the ToB classes, Rogue, and anything else that currently performs better.
The Monk, like the Fighter, can't place all the blame on T1 casters. Nobody can. When you remove a tier, everything just moves up. ToB would be T1 in that world, but the definition would still be T3.

EDIT:
Did not consider the magic item loss implications.
They'd lose out horribly in that aspect, though the Fighter might be worse off.

[ryu]

I think the Monk's issue is that it's a badass normal, in a world where normal=dinner. Some of those class features would be awesome in another setting - Slow Fall would be super cool except that Feather Fall exists in the same universe.

How do you think Monk's would perform in a zero magic setting - no casters, no magic items, mundane enemies etc?

Getting repeatedly beaten up and having their lunch taken by all the better martial classes and especially initiators? Further no magic means no magic items. Good luck catching up to the people from tome of battle who are the only ones with access to a vague mockery of the power you just banished from existence.

[Coidzor]

No Magic might even turn off a number of or all of their supernatural abilities.

[Sir Chuckles]

No Magic might even turn off a number of or all of their supernatural abilities.

If that were the case (which is...true?), Monks would still be pretty badly off, as you can't put Masterwork onto your Fists, and the Fighter can with his long/short sword combo that's doing more damage for quite awhile.

And I don't believe it hurts the ToB, either, since many of their stance and maneuver effect are Extraordinary.

[SiuiS]

I still think the ascetic feats do a good job optimizing it.

Well, here is the part no one ever tells you; if monk does well in your games, that's optimized enough. So just nod, and walk away, because after that point you'll get no love.

At fifth level an optimized character is doing 80-100 damage, and is a chump compared to the people who just win, no damage. At level ten, a character can be doing multiple hundreds of damage and definitely can win encounters without combat, can circumvent entire encounters and dungeon segments with class features, or could retire and begin creating a society which functions without scarcity. 24 damage at that point is pitiful but only in comparison to what maximum skill can accomplish.

"Monks are weak" and "fighter sucks" and "mundanes can't have nice things" are all thoughts in a vacuum. If you have games where monks are perfectly compatible and fearsome, good on you! But don't listen to any optimizers because they will ruin it. They will show you a few tricks that will seep into the game and slowly boost it above balance point. They will disrupt your homeostasis. And that's terrible.

[Hytheter]

I actually forgot about initiators...

But, I wasn't trying to suggest that Monks would suddenly become the kings of combat, and they shouldn't - if punching could be superior to swords, we wouldn't have invented swords. But Monks have a relative talent for speed and mobility, as well as more skills than the average martial class, which could actually be a viable niche in the absense of magic.

[Rubik]

Well, here is the part no one ever tells you; if monk does well in your games, that's optimized enough. So just nod, and walk away, because after that point you'll get no love.

At fifth level an optimized character is doing 80-100 damage, and is a chump compared to the people who just win, no damage. At level ten, a character can be doing multiple hundreds of damage and definitely can win encounters without combat, can circumvent entire encounters and dungeon segments with class features, or could retire and begin creating a society which functions without scarcity. 24 damage at that point is pitiful but only in comparison to what maximum skill can accomplish.

"Monks are weak" and "fighter sucks" and "mundanes can't have nice things" are all thoughts in a vacuum. If you have games where monks are perfectly compatible and fearsome, good on you! But don't listen to any optimizers because they will ruin it. They will show you a few tricks that will seep into the game and slowly boost it above balance point. They will disrupt your homeostasis. And that's terrible.Alternately, knowing how the game works can help keep you from feeling useless when the party druid accidentally overshadows you with but one of his many class features.

[Sith_Happens]

How much damage is your monk doing at, say, level 10 if you don't focus on strength?

If you focus on dexterity, about 8 points per hit, at three hits a round.

A 10th level Fighter focusing on Strength and power attacking for 3 to match the Monk's BAB does about 22 damage per hit at two hits per round, which is nearly twice as much damage per round.

Mind you, that's before taking DR into account, and almost everything you fight at 10th level will have DR. Against a CR 9 Elemental (DR 10/-), for instance, the Monk is suddenly doing 0 damage per round while the Fighter is doing 24.


They are better with the ascetic rogue and vow of poverty feats, though.

Vow of Poverty Monk auto-loses against anything shooting at it from the air, among other things.

[eggynack]

A 10th level Fighter focusing on Strength and power attacking for 3 to match the Monk's BAB does about 22 damage per hit at two hits per round, which is nearly twice as much damage per round.
Yeah, and that's pretty much the bare minimum of melee optimization. Compare the monk to an optimized chargebarian and the monk's contribution on the damage front starts looking like actual nothing. Hell, even Jake the Dinosaur (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=817089), an animal companion that's taken from a level 8 druid, is packing three attacks, two that deal 7.5 damage, and one that deals 5.5. That sounds like less, but that's not accounting for poison, or the fact that fleshrakers get native access to pounce. There're obviously also ways to push that further as well, especially on a 10th level version, and I haven't even mentioned venomfire yet, which clearly puts the fleshraker over the top.


Vow of Poverty Monk auto-loses against anything shooting at it from the air, among other things.
To be more specific about the "among other things", the lists of necessary magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) is a great place to start out if you're trying to understand the ways in which VoP is inadequate. There's also a bunch of stuff that helps monks reach beyond the baseline level of competency provided by the lists of necessary magic items.

[LordBlades]

Alternately, knowing how the game works can help keep you from feeling useless when the party druid accidentally overshadows you with but one of his many class features.

Also, knowing that the game isn't balanced and in what ways might actually prevent you from breaking it by accident and/or having the wrong attitude toward people breaking it by accident.

Before my local groups got exposed to 3.5 CharOP (in the early days of 3.5) we've had cases of people accidentally breaking the game (the first full orc barbarian with a greatsword and power attack was an outrage) and being treated badly (even kicked out of the groups on occasion).

Everybody operated on the assumption that the system was balanced and that if something disrupted the group it had to be the player.

Hell, as a long time WoW player and complete stranger to non-competitive games, I approached D&D with the idea that it was balanced and that I should strive to make my concept as effective as I could within the framework of the rules.

[Stoneback]

If you're just lookin for unarmed damage, try fighter with spiked gauntlets or Improved Unarmed Strike. Full BAB with TWF is actually better than Flurry. And you can do cooler stuff with a fighter. Like charge and power attack.

[SiuiS]

Alternately, knowing how the game works can help keep you from feeling useless when the party druid accidentally overshadows you with but one of his many class features.

In theory. I have honestly never seen that happen in the wild when I myself did not do it. The gist is, if something looks good when you don't play hardcore, and you don't plan to play hardcore, it functionally is good.


Also, knowing that the game isn't balanced and in what ways might actually prevent you from breaking it by accident and/or having the wrong attitude toward people breaking it by accident.

Before my local groups got exposed to 3.5 CharOP (in the early days of 3.5) we've had cases of people accidentally breaking the game (the first full orc barbarian with a greatsword and power attack was an outrage) and being treated badly (even kicked out of the groups on occasion).

Everybody operated on the assumption that the system was balanced and that if something disrupted the group it had to be the player.

Hell, as a long time WoW player and complete stranger to non-competitive games, I approached D&D with the idea that it was balanced and that I should strive to make my concept as effective as I could within the framework of the rules.

Aye. That's valuable knowledge.

Also how I started. I was so concerned about being able to play right as a wee lass that I was meticulous, far more so at eight than most folks I knew at eighteen. It was a hard lesson, finding out that most groups in 2e weren't nearly as much sticklers as I was.

[TuggyNE]

Take a monk. They come with 9 locations that are always at the ready.

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, but the remainder of your rather high-op post relies almost entirely on this dubious assertion, which makes the conclusion extremely suspect.

Instead, as far as I can tell, unarmed strikes are always a singular weapon, and are treated much like a light mace for weapon enhancements.

[ace rooster]

Most DMs will run an adventure like a series of final fantasy fights where range and terrain are no issue. The most important measure of a class is how it performs in these fights. Skills are largely ignored, and movement speed is pretty useless. The fact that a level 9 monk can sneak as fast as most PCs can move is irrelevent.

In a final fantasy type fight where the extent of the objectives is kill the other guy first, the monk does not do enough damage to be worthy of attention. Given that he is not going to get hit, his strong saves and decent ac (with really good rolls) are compeletely pointless. If these types of fights are the extent of your adventure, the monk is a cheerleader.

In other situations though the monk can shine though. He will have decent wisdom, so his spot and listen will be good. He has good mobility with hide, move silently, climb and swim as class skills and a decent dex, together with boosted movement speed. This all makes him a very good scout. The good survivability is gravy.

Basically they are really bad at killing things, which is ok if that is not all there is (there are other jobs to be done, and you can leave the killing to the rest of the PCs). In most campaigns though, that is all there is, and the monk will suck hard.

[Story]

In other situations though the monk can shine though. He will have decent wisdom, so his spot and listen will be good. He has good mobility with hide, move silently, climb and swim as class skills and a decent dex, together with boosted movement speed. This all makes him a very good scout. The good survivability is gravy.

Basically they are really bad at killing things, which is ok if that is not all there is (there are other jobs to be done, and you can leave the killing to the rest of the PCs). In most campaigns though, that is all there is, and the monk will suck hard.

The problem is that the Monk is bad at pretty much every job. Scouting for instance can be done much better by a Rogue or Binder.

Incidentally, the Monk will only have good Wisdom if he's given up on being able to melee, and he will still have a lot fewer skillpoints than a Rogue. Also, Climb and Swim are trivially duplicated with spells.

[Gwendol]

WIS to AC is actually quite good, but as others have noted, the class design leaves much to be desired.

[Kafros]

Monks are unfortunately an extreemly stat hungry class. and even if you get all your optimal stats you are not necessarily optimal.
Not only there is a good chance your dm will look at you as an alien if you go with the 4 16s + they need to be effective, the other player will see you as an eyeshore for asking those rediculous stats. Then you will start underperforming unless its a low low magic campaign setting... But if it is a low low magic campaign setting, play a spellcaster. (marshal classes are screwed in that kind of settings unless the low low magic = a campaign wide antimagic field)

[ace rooster]

The problem is that the Monk is bad at pretty much every job. Scouting for instance can be done much better by a Rogue or Binder.

Incidentally, the Monk will only have good Wisdom if he's given up on being able to melee, and he will still have a lot fewer skillpoints than a Rogue. Also, Climb and Swim are trivially duplicated with spells.

The rogue doesn't have the monk's speed, (not looked at binder, but I assume not) which should be important for a scout. A speed of 40ft in a party moving at 30ft means an active spot check every 2 rounds, still moving at party speed. It also changes your climb speed from 5ft to 10ft.

Spider climb is a level 2 spell, with (long but) limited duration. When moving through steep mountainous terrain a climb check every couple of hours is not unreasonable, and will burn through those slots. A wand might be available but with a duration of 30mins you will be burning charges fast, running out in a few days. Frankly this is not a monk problem anyway as all mundanes have the same problem.

My whole point was that if you are playing a monk, you have already given up on melee, so may as well dump str. Does not affect your skill with a heavy crossbow (which they are proficient with), and you have no armour to carry.

[Snowbluff]

Ace rooster this is a huge problem.

The monk's movement speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and doesn't stack with other movement bonuses like haste or expeditious retreat or boots...

Spider Climb is an At-Will for warlocks. Climb isn't a very useful skill, regardless. All sorts of methods exist for avoiding it, like ladders, robes, flying, teleportation...

Monk sucks. It's a prime example as to how a skill list is not a substitute for good class features.

[The Trickster]

The rogue doesn't have the monk's speed, (not looked at binder, but I assume not) which should be important for a scout. A speed of 40ft in a party moving at 30ft means an active spot check every 2 rounds, still moving at party speed. It also changes your climb speed from 5ft to 10ft.

Spider climb is a level 2 spell, with (long but) limited duration. When moving through steep mountainous terrain a climb check every couple of hours is not unreasonable, and will burn through those slots. A wand might be available but with a duration of 30mins you will be burning charges fast, running out in a few days. Frankly this is not a monk problem anyway as all mundanes have the same problem.

My whole point was that if you are playing a monk, you have already given up on melee, so may as well dump str. Does not affect your skill with a heavy crossbow (which they are proficient with), and you have no armour to carry.

Yes, but if you are going with a scout/skill monkey kind of monk, you would need to pump up Int, since a monk only gets 4+Int skill points a level. Basically, you would be trading in one needed high stat for another (MAD is a huge monk issue). The monk's movement speed is nice, but I would rather have the skill points and trap sense on a scouting character.

[Story]

WIS to AC is actually quite good, but as others have noted, the class design leaves much to be desired.

If you want it, you can just buy it as an item.


The rogue doesn't have the monk's speed, (not looked at binder, but I assume not) which should be important for a scout. A speed of 40ft in a party moving at 30ft means an active spot check every 2 rounds, still moving at party speed. It also changes your climb speed from 5ft to 10ft.

A Binder with Malphas bound gets a free raven with a 40ft fly speed. And there's no range limit so they can scout arbitrarily far distances away as long as there aren't any doors. And they can stick with the party while simultaneously scouting ahead, danger free.

Also, they can do this at level 1, unlike Monks, and they get several other useful abilities too, such as invisibility and sudden strike.

Malphas is pretty much the most awesome thing ever for scouting at low levels.

[Zirconia]

In theory. I have honestly never seen that happen in the wild when I myself did not do it. The gist is, if something looks good when you don't play hardcore, and you don't plan to play hardcore, it functionally is good.

I did actually see accidental overshadowing in a game I was in, when the Sorcerer got to Shapechange level (we hadn't really done much with Polymorph) and I dug in and found some really abusable things she could turn into. Suddenly it got VERY hard to do fights that were interesting and dangerous, but not immediately fatal, to both her and my charging Paladin. Straight Paladin, no multiclassing in that one.

Lesson learned, in the current campaign we are in, everyone is a X/Wizard gestalt, the magic item system is completely homebrewed (that was another, more minor source of problems), and as we get to levels where Polymorph type stuff is viable the DM and I, who are the only ones very aware of optimization, will continue our ongoing discussion about where we want power levels to be.

[eggynack]

Most DMs will run an adventure like a series of final fantasy fights where range and terrain are no issue. The most important measure of a class is how it performs in these fights. Skills are largely ignored, and movement speed is pretty useless. The fact that a level 9 monk can sneak as fast as most PCs can move is irrelevent.
I really don't think that that's what most DM's do, primarily because it sounds horribly boring. It sounds even less like what most DM's do because players can actively make combat not work like that.

The rogue doesn't have the monk's speed, (not looked at binder, but I assume not) which should be important for a scout.
Why should speed necessarily be important for a scout? The goal is finding out if things are there or not without being seen, or even just seeing if there are enemies at any given point in time just by virtue of better spot, and avoiding surprise rounds as a result. I don't know what part of that means that speed is important.

[ace rooster]

Ace rooster this is a huge problem.

The monk's movement speed bonus is an enhancement bonus, and doesn't stack with other movement bonuses like haste or expeditious retreat or boots...

Spider Climb is an At-Will for warlocks. Climb isn't a very useful skill, regardless. All sorts of methods exist for avoiding it, like ladders, robes, flying, teleportation...

Monk sucks. It's a prime example as to how a skill list is not a substitute for good class features.

you mean the 1 round/level haste, or the 1 min/level expeditious retreat, or the boots which max out at +10 in core. If the warlock has spent one of his few invocations on spider climb then good for him, he must have thought it was important.

Your final assertion is the crux of the issue, and is DM dependent. My original point was that most DMs play a game where what you say is true, because they think 30+ skill checks a day is not a good idea. In a game where there are 20 rounds a day when the rules actually do anything, the limits of what magic can achieve are never going to be reached, especially if the DM is sloppy about enforcing the limits that do exist (such as range, sight limits, knowing where you are teleporting to, allowing whatever wierd custom magic items the wizard wants). RAW however can easily call for many many checks that are going to test whether your statement that climb is not useful, and non combat situations where a PCs speed over a long distance is important.

[Rubik]

Monk speed means very little. My kobold factotum ended up with a 120' movement speed by spending less than 10,000 gp.

[Snowbluff]

you mean the 1 round/level haste, or the 1 min/level expeditious retreat, or the boots which max out at +10 in core. If the warlock has spent one of his few invocations on spider climb then good for him, he must have thought it was important.

Your final assertion is the crux of the issue, and is DM dependent. My original point was that most DMs play a game where what you say is true, because they think 30+ skill checks a day is not a good idea. In a game where there are 20 rounds a day when the rules actually do anything, the limits of what magic can achieve are never going to be reached, especially if the DM is sloppy about enforcing the limits that do exist (such as range, sight limits, knowing where you are teleporting to, allowing whatever wierd custom magic items the wizard wants). RAW however can easily call for many many checks that are going to test whether your statement that climb is not useful, and non combat situations where a PCs speed over a long distance is important.
This represents a profound lack of knowledge on the poster's part.
*ahem*
Ocular Persistable, Perstitable, Boots and Rapid Wrath, Horned Helmet, Wands, Warlocks can fly, all of the other points were unanswerable. Past level 6, no one ever climbs again.

Monk speed means very little. My kobold factotum ended up with a 120' movement speed by spending less than 10,000 gp.
Rapid Wrath and Horned Helmet?

[Rubik]

This represents a profound lack of knowledge on the poster's part.
*ahem*
Ocular Persistable, Perstitable, Boots and Rapid Wrath, Horned Helmet, Wands, Warlocks can fly, all of the other points were unanswerable. Past level 6, no one ever climbs again.

Rapid Wrath and Horned Helmet?Rapid wrath and anklets of translocation with the horseshoes of speed enhancement, actually. I had a decent UMD score, so I figured why not? I could add on the horseshoes of the zephyr and a few other similar enhancements later on, so it's not too much of a hardship, really.

Just goes to show that speed enhancements are pretty widely available, and there are plenty that make the monk look pretty pitiful in comparison.

[Augmental]

allowing whatever wierd custom magic items the wizard wants

The wizard doesn't need any items except his spellbook and component pouch to be successful.

[ace rooster]

I really don't think that that's what most DM's do, primarily because it sounds horribly boring. It sounds even less like what most DM's do because players can actively make combat not work like that.

Why should speed necessarily be important for a scout? The goal is finding out if things are there or not without being seen, or even just seeing if there are enemies at any given point in time just by virtue of better spot, and avoiding surprise rounds as a result. I don't know what part of that means that speed is important.

When was the last time you had a fight in a space larger than 200ft? How many times have you seen a wizard realise that all his spells are out of range, or even notice that his orbs only travel 14 yards. Have you ever had to travel in the dark, and realise that you need a torch when your enemies do not? Have you ever had to hunt a ranger with camoflage in the open with no cover? How often have you been in a combat where the objective was not to kill or subdue? There is a wealth of options for encounters that I have never seen used beyond close range death-matches, which wizards just win.

Speed is important for a scout because he will be outclasses by most things he meets, and should probably run away. For this faster is better. It should be noted that by scout I mean a strategic scout, who will frequently be half a day or more from help. Not often going to come up for a team of PCs, I will admit.

I should clarify, in most campaigns monk will totally suck, but this is a property of the campaign and how it interacts with various rules, (In most campaigns skills will be almost irrelevant) not a property of the monk, which has unique abilities which can be very useful in a particular campaign. It is like comparing apples and oranges in a world where almost everyone hates citrus fruits.

[Rubik]

The wizard doesn't need any items except his spellbook and component pouch to be successful.Except he can totally make all his own items with little to-do.

[eggynack]

When was the last time you had a fight in a space larger than 200ft?
I think that it must have been at least once or twice, though I honestly can't say that I often measure how big an encounter is.


How many times have you seen a wizard realise that all his spells are out of range, or even notice that his orbs only travel 14 yards.
Well, I've certainly had occasion where the short range of SNA was highly relevant, and the summoned creature needed to take a couple of rounds to reach the opponent. It seems like it'd be pretty rare for all spells to be out of range though, as some of those spells are often going to be long range.


Have you ever had to travel in the dark, and realise that you need a torch when your enemies do not?
I do not recall, though I know that the opponent had a sight advantage over us in one set of encounters, by virtue of invisibility.

Have you ever had to hunt a ranger with camoflage in the open with no cover?
I have not, though that seems oddly specific, honestly.

How often have you been in a combat where the objective was not to kill or subdue?
I'm not entirely sure what other combat objectives there would be. Like, thing retrieval or destruction, I suppose? I know that there was at least one being protection majig, which may qualify.

There is a wealth of options for encounters that I have never seen used beyond close range death-matches, which wizards just win.
Wizards win all matches. I don't really know what your questions had to do with anything.

Speed is important for a scout because he will be outclasses by most things he meets, and should probably run away. For this faster is better. It should be noted that by scout I mean a strategic scout, who will frequently be half a day or more from help. Not often going to come up for a team of PCs, I will admit.
Seems like that latter thing is the important thing, that this isn't much of a game role. Anyway, I think the idea is that you don't get seen, lest you, y'know, cede your entire scouting advantage. Speed is an alright just in case tool, but other classes pack better defenses.

I should clarify, in most campaigns monk will totally suck, but this is a property of the campaign and how it interacts with various rules, (In most campaigns skills will be almost irrelevant) not a property of the monk, which has unique abilities which can be very useful in a particular campaign. It is like comparing apples and oranges in a world where almost everyone hates citrus fruits.
No, it's a property of the monk. Without ridiculous optimization levels, there's nearly nothing that a monk can do that other classes can't do better. It's just a true thing.

[Segev]

What if Monk "extra movement" - that is, the bonus speed he gets as a class feature - was something he could use as any number of free actions on his turn, so long as he doesn't exceed his bonus movement distance?

Add a change to the "slow fall" feature to allow him to instead make Climb checks while within those distances of walls, and you can get some wire-fu going on.

Small changes, probably not enough, but the first should help a little with synergy with their need for full round actions for taking advantage of their flurry of blows.

Maybe just remove the penalties to hit entirely, rather than doing so gradually over levels.

[ace rooster]

This represents a profound lack of knowledge on the poster's part.
*ahem*
Ocular Persistable, Perstitable, Boots and Rapid Wrath, Horned Helmet, Wands, Warlocks can fly, all of the other points were unanswerable. Past level 6, no one ever climbs again.

Rapid Wrath and Horned Helmet?

I didn't say there were not ways of getting faster movement all day, just that the methods suggested were limited as out of the box options.

What wands are you refering to? While the DMG contains rules for pricing custom wands, they are for the DM, not the players. There is an explicit list of wands available, and anything else is subject to DM approval, with 'no' being default without a good reason. A wand of expedious retreat is technically homebrew.

[Augmental]

Have you ever had to travel in the dark, and realise that you need a torch when your enemies do not?

Light is a cantrip. Darkvision is a 2nd-level spell. Monks don't get anything that helps them see in darkness.

[Rubik]

Light is a cantrip. Darkvision is a 2nd-level spell. Monks don't get anything that helps them see in darkness.Darkness also lights up a dark area. The only thing it's good for is giving a miss chance for everyone in the AoE.

If you want an area with no light whatsoever, that's what the No Light cantrip is for. If you want to give yourself protection against darkvision as well, try buying a ring of the darkhidden.

[eggynack]

I didn't say there were not ways of getting faster movement all day, just that the methods suggested were limited as out of the box options.
There are definitely out of the box options that outclass a monk. Druids, to once again return to how utterly druids crush monks, can cobble together levels of mobility that leave monks in the dust, especially later on. Monks only pick up a speed bonus at all at level 3, which can quickly be copied by castings, to whatever degree you like, of snowshoes (SpC, 194). The next upgrade is at level 6, to what is presumably 50 feet, at which point the druid gets natural spell and can thus hang out in desmodu bat (MM II, 65) form most of the day, with a 60 foot (good) flight speed, or even 70 feet, if I'm still running snowshoes.

That would keep the druid at parity with a 12th level monk, were I so inclined, but instead I'll just pick up exalted wild shape (BoED, 42) at level 9, and gain access to at will free action dimension doors through blink dog form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/blinkDog.htm). That's a druid, running one feat, and using a few class features, destroying the monk's mobility without really even trying to. They are all options that I would feel safe recommending to any druid, and this build is thus a relatively unbiased one. This obviously isn't even the upper limit of druid mobility. Monks, when you get right down to it, aren't actually that mobile in the grand scheme of things, especially when you consider the fact that they can't even move and full attack (while my druid eventually can).

[ace rooster]

Seems like that latter thing is the important thing, that this isn't much of a game role. Anyway, I think the idea is that you don't get seen, lest you, y'know, cede your entire scouting advantage. Speed is an alright just in case tool, but other classes pack better defenses.

Exactly, but in a campaign where this is the game roll, monk is a fairly solid option. Remember that your speed sneaking is dependant on your speed.


No, it's a property of the monk. Without ridiculous optimization levels, there's nearly nothing that a monk can do that other classes can't do better. It's just a true thing.
They are pretty good at not dying. I will grant you, not much else, and you can optimise better, but without op (comparing like with like) this is useful for a scout.

[eggynack]

They are pretty good at not dying. I will grant you, not much else, and you can optimise better, but without op (comparing like with like) this is useful for a scout.
They're not that great at not dying either. They tend towards low AC, unless they have really high stats, and good saves are nice but they're not the most important thing. A well built caster will tend towards significantly more robust defenses. Also, not-dying man isn't worth that much as a combat role in this game.

[Raimun]

I'd say the worst thing about the Monk is that many people who don't know that much about the game system think it's stat-wise an awesome class. While the reality of the situation is that the metric ton of Monk Class Features isn't that good or work well as a whole. Combined with Medium-BAB... with Flurry.

Imagine the pain of someone who leveled up the monk to level 10 during a campaign, thinking in advance that he'll be the most awesome warrior ever... or at least as good as the rest of the warriors.

I've even heard a few stories about DMs who have banned the monk at first glance of the book because they thought automatically that any class with that many individual abilities is bound to be toootally overpowered. While banning the monk is actually better for the players initially, it ultimately hampers the DMs ability to understand the workings of the game mechanics. That is never a good thing.

Apart from that? Nothing in the class works as intended.

[Talya]

Let's turn back the clock...


Manic Monk Day (Here's the original, for you young'uns. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZgLcK5LzI))

It's six o'clock already
I'm just loading up GiantITP.
Yet another argument
"This should be Tier 6." "I think Tier 3."
Though I've seen it all before
I guess it's kinda really not that bad
'Cause when Monday comes along
It's always déja vu like you've never had

It's just another manic Monk day
I wish it were steampunk day...
Or Dungeons & Dreamboats hunk day! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234311)
That's "I'll be in my bunk" day
It's just another manic Monk day

Have to smack my tired brain
Explaining how they are so M.A.D.
And the lack of feature synergy
Makes an optimizer really sad
'Cause if you can run really fast
You can't use your Flurry of Blows
And you can't hit anything anyway
And so just rack up more zeros

It's just another manic Monk day
I wish it were steampunk day...
Or Dungeons & Dreamboats hunk day!
My "I'll be in my bunk"-day
It's just another manic Monk day

All the classes - why did you have to pick this one to
Take V.O.P.?
Doesn't it matter that you've gone from weak to useless
By just taking two feats
But you tell me in your forum voice
"Monks are really wizardkilling ploys."
(Timestop, facepalm,
forcecage and cloudkill...)*

It's just another manic Monk day
I wish it were steampunk day...
Or Dungeons & Dreamboats hunk day!
That's "I'll be in my bunk"-day
It's just another manic Monk day


*There are far more efficient and reliable means of handling that. I just had to meet a syllable count.

[Svata]

Link doesn't work. Try this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbHxwFxdXXc)

[Zaq]

I didn't say there were not ways of getting faster movement all day, just that the methods suggested were limited as out of the box options.

What wands are you refering to? While the DMG contains rules for pricing custom wands, they are for the DM, not the players. There is an explicit list of wands available, and anything else is subject to DM approval, with 'no' being default without a good reason. A wand of expedious retreat is technically homebrew.

Right, which is why Craft Wand says "you can craft the wands that are in the DMG, and that's it."

Oh, wait. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWand)


Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite

Caster level 5th.
Benefit

You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.

(Emphasis added.)

Wands are wands. They're not tricky to make (beyond the relevant feat, of course), they don't have especially weird and fiddly rules, they don't have any real restrictions beyond 4th level. I don't see where you're going with your "Wand of Expeditious Retreat is homebrew" argument.

[TheLastSane1]

I had some ideas for a homebrew Monk and figured here is a place to ask them.

Using CMD (Pathfinder - 10+Str+Dex+Wis in the case of monks) as AC rather then AC for Monks as this gives them use for their MAD dependancy or even drop.

Increase Unarmed Strike damage to the large size for all medium characters so 1d8 to start 4d8s to end at 20.

remove the two levels of penalties to flurry of blows no -1/-1. Instead start at +1/+1 meaning at level 20 you get +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 for Flurry of Blows

Add a natural enhancement progression for Unarmed Strike.
At level 1 and 2 the enhancement is 0. At 3-4 its +1, 5-6 its +2 nd so forth till +6 at 20th. Giving weapon enhancements via their ki or whatever fluff you wanna make it. Or have it follow the same progression as the AC bonus.

Increase Bab to full rather then the pseudo full bab PF gave Monk.
Increase HD to d10.
Make Flurry of Blows a Standard action.

What do you guys think?
I also considered giving limited psionic or spell like abilities to a monk in the vein of the Qinggong Monk Archetype

For example use the Ki pool as The Monks Level + Wis + CMB = Ki Pool. Then use the abilities listed for Qinggong monk as pseudo spell-like abilities able to be cast by spending Ki points like a psionic spends power points.

[Rejusu]

I can't think of much. If there's anything they did right, it's creating a class whose abilities somehow resonate with players, with a combination of ability density and coolness. The abilities are bad, but they certainly resonate. Even something as craptacular as slow fall is full of flavor.

I would say that's actually something they do wrong. Monk is essentially a trap for new players that promise awesomeness and deliver mediocrity.


*snip*

15. 19th level etherealness for a single round. I just....I just don't The casters have been doing this for so long multiple times per day. One round? How situational is a singular round???

Minor nitpick but it's one round per monk level per day with the ability to break those rounds up as they wish. It still sucks, just a bit less than how you put it.


How do you think Monk's would perform in a zero magic setting - no casters, no magic items, mundane enemies etc?

Initiators would be far superior, and Rogues/Barbarians would still outperform them overall.



Did not consider the magic item loss implications.
They'd lose out horribly in that aspect, though the Fighter might be worse off.

If there's only mundane enemies though I don't think they'd be worse off as it could be argued that they'd never encounter anything with DR/Magic. And fighter is still generally better magic items or no.


"Monks are weak" and "fighter sucks" and "mundanes can't have nice things" are all thoughts in a vacuum. If you have games where monks are perfectly compatible and fearsome, good on you! But don't listen to any optimizers because they will ruin it. They will show you a few tricks that will seep into the game and slowly boost it above balance point. They will disrupt your homeostasis. And that's terrible.

Just because you aren't aware of it, or don't acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Believing that Monks are great does nothing to change what they are. These are not thoughts in a vacuum, they exist within the context of the system. And if you are playing a game with that same system they are in effect. Again this is irrespective of if you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Back when I had no idea about optimising (I thought my Soulbow was totally awesome) I played in a pretty low-op game with two Monks (one a VoP Paladin hybrid thing, I don't remember the exact build and the other a Gith something) and you know what I remember the most notable thing I remember either of them doing? Not being hit. Despite not having any clue about tiers or any of that at the time all I remember is how useless they were. So don't tell me it's all in a vacuum.

As has already been pointed out you don't even need outside interference to disrupt this magical homeostasis, it's easy to tip above the "balance point" simply by playing something decent. Because individual games don't exist in a vacuum, they are played with a system that encompasses far more than whatever happens to be in the current party. If Monks and Fighters existed in a world where Wizards, and Druids, and Barbarians, and a bunch of other stuff didn't exist you would have a point. But all it takes is for some new player, or a player replacing a dead character, to decide they want to play one of these classes to begin to tip the balance.



My whole point was that if you are playing a monk, you have already given up on melee, so may as well dump str. Does not affect your skill with a heavy crossbow (which they are proficient with), and you have no armour to carry.

Except crossbows will only take you so far for so long before you just become irrelevant as soon as a fight breaks out. And since "scout" is only a useful role in a campaign where combat is going to occur fairly regularly you're basically relegating yourself to uselessness. Plus crossbows sacrifice the advantage of fast movement that you keep holding up as one of the Monks saving graces. And heavy crossbows are terrible without the rapid reload feat due to the full-round action reload time.

---

I think of the few things that haven't been said regarding the Monks issues there's these two:
1) No out of combat utility. Sure they have a decent number of skill points and an okay skill list but the most useful utility skills they have (Diplomacy, Knowledge, Craft) are keyed off abilities that are probably going to be dump stats for the Monk. So they only really encourage him to be MADder than he already is.

2) By RAW Monks aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes. Of course this one never gets enforced (and never should) but only serves as a testament to how poorly designed the class is.

Speaking of bad design someone should have written a manual of style for the design team, one of the tenants should have been "Thou shalt not give primary melee combatants less than full BAB". Seriously, the Monk clearly has no other purpose other than hitting things. What possible reason is there to give it 3/4 BAB?

[Rubik]

Speaking of bad design someone should have written a manual of style for the design team, one of the tenants tenets should have been "Thou shalt not give primary melee combatants less than full BAB". Seriously, the Monk clearly has no other purpose other than hitting things. What possible reason is there to give it 3/4 BAB?Give that tenet a caveat: "Thou shalt not give primary melee combatants less than full BAB unless they have ways to make up for it." The psychic warrior, after all, is one of the most powerful and flexible martial classes in the game -- it's certainly the most powerful T3 class -- and it has 3/4 BAB. But it can buff itself to the nines, make up for potential MAD through other means, debuff its enemies, give itself lots of natural attacks to make up for lack of iteratives, and has a ton of different ways to otherwise take up the slack.

[Story]

Totemists get 3/4 BAB despite being melee focused as well.

[Hecuba]

Totemists get 3/4 BAB despite being melee focused as well.

Yes, but their subsequent attacks are generally in the form of Natural attacks. This has significant advantages over iteratives (much less the reduction that flurry gets).

[Rubik]

Yes, but their subsequent attacks are generally in the form of Natural attacks. This has significant advantages over iteratives (much less the reduction that flurry gets).Remember my caveat. Totemists definitely get that.

[Coidzor]

Rapid Wrath and Horned Helmet?

How does having a gore attack help you move quickly? :smallconfused: Or is the gore attack granting just called a Horned Helm?

[Rubik]

How does having a gore attack help you move quickly? :smallconfused: Or is the gore attack granting just called a Horned Helm?The horned helm is an item in the Arms & Equipment Guide. Doubles base speed for 38k.

[Coidzor]

The horned helm is an item in the Arms & Equipment Guide. Doubles base speed for 38k.

Oh my. Now I want a Horned Helm Horned Helmet. :smallbiggrin:


If that were the case (which is...true?), Monks would still be pretty badly off, as you can't put Masterwork onto your Fists, and the Fighter can with his long/short sword combo that's doing more damage for quite awhile.

And I don't believe it hurts the ToB, either, since many of their stance and maneuver effect are Extraordinary.

Yep. Since it's now Fat ToBsday, I figured it might also bear mentioning that this difference is often brought up when people object to Martial Adepts as being too magic in comparison with the Monk. XD

[Rubik]

Oh my. Now I want a Horned Helm Horned Helmet. :smallbiggrin:Also gives a 1d8 ram-attack with a +2 bonus to hit. So a rapid wrath horned helm quadruples your base speed for 41,400 gp. Adding the horseshoes on your boots/anklets/slippers/whatever grants an extra +30' to your base speed, so a barbarian human with those available has a nice fat 280' base speed.

Kind of makes one wonder why you thought the monk was so special, since everyone else can just buy their class abilities for cheap and outdo them in every way, huh?

[The Cat Goddess]

I ran it with a 14th level monk. The NPC beat a group of players of the same level.

Let me guess...

No rogue. No scouting for ambushes. No proper defending of the casters by the melee. Wizards using Fireball & the like.


I still think the ascetic feats do a good job optimizing it.

Then you're no longer a Monk. You're a Ranger/Rogue/Sorcerer with a couple of Monk levels.


How can you simultaneously classifier the Beekeeper outfit as armor so that it is enchantable, and yet nonarmor so it doesn't interfere with Monk abilities? It's very 1984.

The item description specifically says it is not armor, but it provides an "armor bonus" of +0. Magical Vestment says it provides an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor Bonus... so, by RAW it works.

Of course, you could always just get a Robe of the Arch Magi for an Armor Bonus of +5... or Robes of Armor from the Magic Item Compendium. And, if you want to mix armor special abilities, you can wear Robes of Armor & Bracers of Armor at the same time... only the highest Armor Bonus counts, but the other special abilities would all apply.


Oh, and for Scouting? There's this class called "Scout" in Complete Adventurer. They've got fast movement... and tracking... and skills...

[Rubik]

About the cheapest way to get a decent armor score is to buy a pearl of power I for the party mage to cast Mage Armor on you, along with another one for an artificer to use Magic Vestment on your clothing. They both scale in duration, but the Magic Vestment increases in strength the higher level you are.

[Talya]

About the cheapest way to get a decent armor score is to buy a pearl of power I for the party mage to cast Mage Armor on you, along with another one for an artificer to use Magic Vestment on your clothing. They both scale in duration, but the Magic Vestment increases in strength the higher level you are.

Or you can... take vow of poverty! It's made for monks, you know!
:smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

I would say that's actually something they do wrong. Monk is essentially a trap for new players that promise awesomeness and deliver mediocrity.
Maybe. I mean, they definitely did that part right, as the class is super attractive, but their success there might have been problematic. It's certainly a success though. Really, if this can be considered a bad thing, it's because other things are bad, and not because the thing they did with flavor was intrinsically a bad thing. Because it's obviously not. The way I figure it, at some point you have to say, "If I could keep certain parts of the class, and ditch everything else, this is the part I would keep." In this case, I think the part I would keep is the resonance.

[Story]

The item description specifically says it is not armor, but it provides an "armor bonus" of +0. Magical Vestment says it provides an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor Bonus... so, by RAW it works.

Of course, you could always just get a Robe of the Arch Magi for an Armor Bonus of +5... or Robes of Armor from the Magic Item Compendium. And, if you want to mix armor special abilities, you can wear Robes of Armor & Bracers of Armor at the same time... only the highest Armor Bonus counts, but the other special abilities would all apply.


Except that it specifically has to be "armor" to have ASAs added. Either it counts as "armor" for both purposes or neither. Armor bonuses don't have anything to do with it.

[Sir Chuckles]

Also gives a 1d8 ram-attack with a +2 bonus to hit. So a rapid wrath horned helm quadruples your base speed for 41,400 gp. Adding the horseshoes on your boots/anklets/slippers/whatever grants an extra +30' to your base speed, so a barbarian human with those available has a nice fat 280' base speed.

Kind of makes one wonder why you thought the monk was so special, since everyone else can just buy their class abilities for cheap and outdo them in every way, huh?

Look at that little Dwarf bugger in my sig.
You just made his day.

[Quorothorn]

Also gives a 1d8 ram-attack with a +2 bonus to hit. So a rapid wrath horned helm quadruples your base speed for 41,400 gp. Adding the horseshoes on your boots/anklets/slippers/whatever grants an extra +30' to your base speed, so a barbarian human with those available has a nice fat 280' base speed.

Kind of makes one wonder why you thought the monk was so special, since everyone else can just buy their class abilities for cheap and outdo them in every way, huh?

Nitpick: 41,400 gp is hardly "cheap", at least until we're talking about characters of 15th-level and up--below that such a thing would be over a fourth of your WBL, a not insignificant point when one typically has other things to buy. I suppose it's a "you can, but why would you want or need to, necessarily, at the price?" thing, which applies to frankly quite a few of the Monk "class features" and in turn the items that can duplicate or better them (though a Ring of Feather Fall is pretty cheap except at the level a Monk first gains Slow Fall...for, ah, 20 feet). Still a fun speed, though--and just look at the bonus to Jump checks (a nice even +100, I believe)--good luck to anything that wants to save against a Swooping Dragon Strike from that adventurer, eh? :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Nitpick: 41,400 gp is hardly "cheap", at least until we're talking about characters of 15th-level and up--below that such a thing would be over a fourth of your WBL, a not insignificant point when one typically has other things to buy. I suppose it's a "you can, but why would you want or need to, necessarily, at the price?" thing, which applies to frankly quite a few of the Monk "class features" and in turn the items that can duplicate or better them (though a Ring of Feather Fall is pretty cheap except at the level a Monk first gains Slow Fall...for, ah, 20 feet). Still a fun speed, though--and just look at the bonus to Jump checks (a nice even +100, I believe)--good luck to anything that wants to save against a Swooping Dragon Strike from that adventurer, eh? :smallbiggrin:Everything except the horned helm is inexpensive. Under 10k. For most creatures, the horseshoes of speed enhancement will double their speed (or more, for Small creatures). The rapid wrath ability gives you another doubling. The horned helm is for later levels, which doubles your speed yet again. Monks don't gain that kind of speed enhancement until 9th level, and that doesn't even stack with most speed enhancers, since it's an enhancement bonus.

So, yes, aside from the horned helm bit, it IS cheap. Really cheap. The helm is what takes up most of the expense on that one.

[Quorothorn]

Everything except the horned helm is inexpensive. Under 10k. For most creatures, the horseshoes of speed enhancement will double their speed (or more, for Small creatures). The rapid wrath ability gives you another doubling. The horned helm is for later levels, which doubles your speed yet again. Monks don't gain that kind of speed enhancement until 9th level, and that doesn't even stack with most speed enhancers, since it's an enhancement bonus.

So, yes, aside from the horned helm bit, it IS cheap. Really cheap. The helm is what takes up most of the expense on that one.

And by 9th level something under 10k would be under a quarter WBL, indeed, so affordable as long as you're not really locked in to using all your available gold. I feel this still qualifies for the aforementioned "you can, but at the price do you actually need it nearly enough?" label that applies to like half the Monk's stuff. (The biggest one to me there would be the SR, because that ability is incredibly overpriced from my perspective.)

[Karnith]

Except that it specifically has to be "armor" to have ASAs added. Either it counts as "armor" for both purposes or neither. Armor bonuses don't have anything to do with it.
Unless you're using the (3.0-and-hence-possibly-no-longer-applicable) Arms and Equipment Guide, in which case Bracers of Armor are not armor but can have special abilities placed on them as though they were armor.

[Rubik]

And by 9th level something under 10k would be under a quarter WBL, indeed, so affordable as long as you're not really locked in to using all your available gold. I feel this still qualifies for the aforementioned "you can, but at the price do you actually need it nearly enough?" label that applies to like half the Monk's stuff. (The biggest one to me there would be the SR, because that ability is incredibly overpriced from my perspective.)SR is generally considered very bad for players, since it ruins healing and buffs from others, which are quite necessary.

[icefractal]

I was thinking about it, and actually - if the abilities were sufficiently good on their own, the non-synergistic nature would not be a problem. Nobody complains that Orb of Fire doesn't particularly combine with Solid Fog, because those are both good spells and you use them in different situations.

So if the Monk was strong enough to begin with, "maximum speed Spring Attacks vs stand and flurry" would actually be an interesting dynamic. Of course, Swordsage already has that dynamic, and is a better base for starting from, but hey.

[Captnq]

Except that it specifically has to be "armor" to have ASAs added. Either it counts as "armor" for both purposes or neither. Armor bonuses don't have anything to do with it.

Actually, No.

If you can put an Armor Enhancement Bonus on it, you can add any Armor Special Ability to it. Just like if you can put a shield enhancement bonus on it, you can add any Shield Special Ability to it. The ability to put an enhancement bonus is on it is all that is required.

For example, ironthorn extract. One week of armor from normal clothes. Since it has a duration, I can buy a masterwork version of it and treat it as ammunition. That means one flask is 1/50th normal price. I'll have to go on 51 adventures before the cost outweighs the benefits. Buy a flask with whatever EBs and ASAs you need for that given mission. RAI? damned if I know. RAW? Errr... I -think- so?

(And I would like to point out that ironthorn extract implies that clothing has a base AC of 0. Also, sandstorm is 3.5, unlike A&EG)

How about Mud Armor? Technically, I can make it masterwork. Enchantable armor that lasts 1d2 days? Is THAT ammunition armor? Of course a monk can't use that, as it is actually armor, but you get my point.

Either way, it's a gray area. A DM is well within his rights to say no simply because it's clearly not RAI. All of this is best used as an argument to a DM stating, "Look, just let me buy a pair of 300 gp masterwork pajamas with an AC 0 and enchant it, or I'll start to use stuff like this just to keep up."

Again, like I said: Dumpster Diving.

[Story]

Actually, No.

If you can put an Armor Enhancement Bonus on it, you can add any Armor Special Ability to it. Just like if you can put a shield enhancement bonus on it, you can add any Shield Special Ability to it. The ability to put an enhancement bonus is on it is all that is required.

Do you have a source for that? Because here is what I found.


To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some
iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of
materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the
armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must
be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the
base price to determine final market value.



To add a special property to a shield or suit of armor, the shield or
armor must already have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

Unless noted otherwise in the property’s Property entry, each
special property in this chapter can be added either to a suit of
armor or shield.

[Quorothorn]

SR is generally considered very bad for players, since it ruins healing and buffs from others, which are quite necessary.

Indeed that is partially what I meant: the party cleric could justifiably get cranky if you make them take Spell Penetration just so a buff is less likely to fizzle at the worst possible time, i.e. almost any time. Well, and even if it was good, the way the price scales on the standard SR-providing item is too steep.

Of course, this would arguably be another 'edge' the item route to SR would have over Monk's class feature SR: it's easier to *remove*. Not saying much, but eh, that just leads back once again to the basic point here that Monk class features can be mimicked by items too simply AND often are not even good enough to bother with said mimicking, leaving aside some obvious exceptions like a Druid using a Monk's Belt as a decent AC-booster.

[Rakaydos]

So a rapid wrath horned helm quadruples your base speed for 41,400 gp.

Only triples. A doubled doubling is a tripling, not a quadrupling.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying

[Snowbluff]

Only triples. A doubled doubling is a tripling, not a quadrupling.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying

The speed bonuses form an exception.

[Rubik]

Only triples. A doubled doubling is a tripling, not a quadrupling.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplyingBut it says explicitly that distances are calculated normally...

[Rakaydos]

whoops, my bad.

[Lans]

In reality, the monk is only a few house rules away from being atleast barbarian or ranger level usable; things like flurry as a standard, fixing their special ability progression (bringing quivering palm down a few levels, advancing slowfall faster, giving actual ki abilities besides that hunk of crap ki strike) and giving them better BaB, because no primary combatant should have gimpy BaB.
I think they hit barbarian/ranger levels of usable with a few of the better ACFs, Holy Strike, invisible fist, martial, that one from faerune.

Making it not by far and away most MAD class is a good place to start.
Compare it to a Paladin, who wants the same amount of stats, but doesn't need them nearly as badly

Change its AC bonus to that of the swordsage, more skill points, and a higher HD would be good places to start.



Fighter is doing 24.



Vow of Poverty Monk auto-loses against anything shooting at it from the air, among other things.
Not necessarily, deflect arrows high saves, evasion can negate an enemies daily allotment of shooting sometimes. Then you can add martial monk to get infinite reflection and deflect anything feats.

[TheLastSane1]

Its a shame they didnt think to rewrite this class for Pathfinder when they had the chance. I mean make Wis count as a bonus to hit and damage to indicate the monk knows pressure points and weak points in a body rendering a lesser need for strength to be a primary stat.

As for their skills and social skills they have a handful. Have an insight bonus of their Wis applied to all Int and Cha based skills renders those abilities go to tertiary.

That leaves us with Dex and Wis for primary and Con for a secondary stat. There you have made the class less MAD.

Now give them full BAB not this full bab when flurrying or doing Combat Maneuvers and a higher HD.

Right there you have fixed several of the problems. The PF method of making these abilities cost ki also allows them to be used more then once a week or so.

[Nihilarian]

Honestly, the monk should have been a psionic class from the beginning.

[The Trickster]

Its a shame they didnt think to rewrite this class for Pathfinder when they had the chance. I mean make Wis count as a bonus to hit and damage to indicate the monk knows pressure points and weak points in a body rendering a lesser need for strength to be a primary stat.

As for their skills and social skills they have a handful. Have an insight bonus of their Wis applied to all Int and Cha based skills renders those abilities go to tertiary.

That leaves us with Dex and Wis for primary and Con for a secondary stat. There you have made the class less MAD.

Now give them full BAB not this full bab when flurrying or doing Combat Maneuvers and a higher HD.

Right there you have fixed several of the problems. The PF method of making these abilities cost ki also allows them to be used more then once a week or so.

I was surprized they even kept the monk in PF, given all the talk about how some of the PF designers didn't even like the monk to begin with.

At least they buffed it a little.

[Lord_Gareth]

At least they buffed it a little.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

No they didn't.

[Rubik]

I was surprized they even kept the monk in PF, given all the talk about how some of the PF designers didn't even like the monk to begin with.

At least they buffed it a little.And then SKR nerfed almost everything, from what I've heard, to the point where it's even harder to optimize a non-qinggong monk to decency than it is in 3.X.

[Lord_Gareth]

And then SKR nerfed almost everything, from what I've heard, to the point where it's even harder to optimize a non-quiggong monk to decency than it is in 3.X.

This is exactly what happened. SKR couldn't talk about Monk as a class without throwing a gigantic angry hissy fit, and whenever someone found something handy (like enchanting brass knuckles) he got rid of it and used some flimsy, did-no-research answer to justify it (for the above, "real fighters don't use brass knuckles, untrained thugs do").

[Averis Vol]

I think they hit barbarian/ranger levels of usable with a few of the better ACFs, Holy Strike, invisible fist, martial, that one from faerune.

Making it not by far and away most MAD class is a good place to start.
Compare it to a Paladin, who wants the same amount of stats, but doesn't need them nearly as badly

Change its AC bonus to that of the swordsage, more skill points, and a higher HD would be good places to start.


Agreed on basically all accounts. I just feel it would be better if the base class worked fine instead of having to search around for a bunch of ACF's.

I also think they should have switched up the AC a bit, maybe giving a base 10+ 1/2 level+ wis. maybe even completely replacing dex with that method. I think if they were str/wis/con-AD it would be a pretty comfortable medium. Let WIS carry their defenses while STR deals with offense, and I think it would be a fine class.

[Nihilarian]

And then SKR nerfed almost everything, from what I've heard, to the point where it's even harder to optimize a non-qinggong monk to decency than it is in 3.X.Sohei and Zen Archers do fairly well, as I understand it. Of course, they are also capable of becoming qinggong monks (and should)

[TheLastSane1]

Someone explain why Qinggong is a variant and not the default since it basically has given the class at least a little more power and flexibility to it.

[Nihilarian]

Someone explain why Qinggong is a variant and not the default since it basically has given the class at least a little more power and flexibility to it.Because Paizo hates monks.

[TheLastSane1]

So it would seem. Honestly this seems like it should be the base monk ability. So much so that in my homebrew I am working on I have added it into the base monks abilities.

I just posted in in the Homebrew section and need some help finishing it up with advice and input. I am not great at balancing a class or anything as this is my first real homebrew.

This thread gave me the idea to make the homebrew.

[The Trickster]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

No they didn't.

I'll rephrase.

At least they buffed monks a little bit...before the nerfs.

(I forgot about the "you can't use improved natural attack on a monk" junk that came out later, not to mention some other stuff.)

[killem2]

Poor base attack bonus, lack of feats, massive dependency on multiple attributes (Str, Con, Wis, etc) and so on.

Monks are weak thanks to severe MAD (multiple ability dependency). That's really the main thing that everything else boils down to. Oh, and the fact that their class abilities are VERY slapped together and not self-synergistic at all.

From what I understand, it boils down to the fact that basically anything that monks can do, any other melee type can do better, and they are extremely MAD.

Because you could go fighter 20, specializing in unarmed combat, using your WBL to buy items that mimic monk special abilities and be better than the monk at every level?

Medium BAB doth not a beatstick make. And I'll hear none of that "But they are caster killers" nonsense. They are only for that at low levels, and then other things do it better.

MAD, non-full BAB melee person, and the fact that they do damage to their enemies. Damage is the last thing you want to inflict on an enemy in combat.

Well, others can rant at more length than I can, but here are a few things:
*They need to have high scores in multiple abilities to be fully functional: Strength for attack and damage, Dexterity for defense since they can't wear armor, Wisdom for their class features, and Constitution so they don't die since they're frontliners. Wizards just need high Intelligence, and clerics/druids just need high Wisdom. Boosting one stat is easier than boosting multiple. Feats like Weapon Finesse help with this, but that requires using up feats.

*Their class features don't synergize well with each other. Flurry of Blows gives them additional attacks, and they get a speed bonus. They can't make a full attack after moving their speed, so one or the other of these will be largely pointless in combat. They get Evasion and various immunities so they don't need to make saves, but they already have great saves that mean such things wouldn't be a big threat anyway.

*Their good class features take too long to kick in and are too limited. Slow Fall is incredibly situational, Abundant Step is once per day and comes at level 12 when Wizards have been able to cast Dimension Door for the past 5 levels, Quivering Palm is once per week and has a low DC when Clerics have been able to cast Slay Living multiple times per day for the past 6 levels, and Perfect Self gives a bunch of bonuses (though the DR is useless since at level 20 everything will have magic weapons) way too late in the game for them to make much difference.

Some major factors that people haven't brought up yet are:
Unless you spend an unreasonable amount of money on it, a Monk's AC will usually be *lower* than other melee classes' AC's. Though this is really just a consequence of the MAD everybody is mentioning ...
They can't use magic weapons without giving up their massive unarmed damage (unless some admittedly common houserules are used)
Even with the massive unarmed damage, they just don't do very much damage compared to other melee classes (if they avoid various traps).

Offensively, the problem is their dependency on full attacks that get few damage bonuses and 3/4 BAB. Increased fist damage is too variable to, and doesn't do that much damage anyway. Using magic equipment to increase their abilities is extremely necessary, but very costly, and pretty much requires the DM to be giving you items of +4 & +6 to ability scores and early access to Tomes of +strength and the like. A lot of DMs are slow to do this, especially if the other party members are expecting similar treatment. A caster that gets +6 to their prime ability score almost doubles the number of their highest level spells; a monk gets +3 more to hit & damage, or +3 to AC.



Using magic equipment to increase their abilities is extremely necessary, but very costly, and pretty much requires the DM to be giving you items of +4 & +6 to ability scores and early access to Tomes of +strength and the like. A lot of DMs are slow to do this, especially if the other party members are expecting similar treatment. A caster that gets +6 to their prime ability score almost doubles the number of their highest level spells; a monk gets +3 more to hit & damage, or +3 to AC.


And finally if you don't want them to suck:

Quick and Dirty version of make Monks not suck:

-Give them full BAB
-Give them a Soulknife-esque progression for their fists. Possibly let this apply to any non-enchanted monk weapon they hold.
-Give them Wis to hit/damage in place of strength.
-Let flurry's bonus attacks apply anytime you attack, as opposed to just full round actions.
-Add Spring Attack to the potential bonus feats, possibly also the PHB2 feat that gives you an extra attack on it as a level 6 bonus feat option.
-Abundant Step becomes usable more frequently (once per day is pretty horrible), and usable as a move action or swift action, rather than the normal standard action + end turn effect of dimension door. I'd give it at least 4 uses per day, or a per encounter limit instead.

[TheLastSane1]

Paizo gave them it at a cost of 2 ki points per time and its a move action.

I agree with everything you said so I made up a homebrew that made Str a secondary stat as Force of Flurry lets them choose to use dex as their to hit and to damage str replacement. And later at level 8 the monk adds Wis to hit and to damage to show their skill in where to land a blow.

Wis to Cha and Int based skills makes those all but bump stats with Int good for skill points.

Gave them full BAB and a special class feature that lets them count their fist as masterwork for the purposes of placing enhancements on their fist as well as giving it the Qinggongs useful ki point ability system with a few additions thrown in. Like Feather Fall at level 4 costing 1 ki point.
And a few other things too.

[Rubik]

They can't use magic weapons without giving up their massive unarmed damage (unless some admittedly common houserules are used)
Even with the massive unarmed damage, they just don't do very much damage compared to other melee classes (if they avoid various traps).You do realize that the monk's "massive" damage caps out at an average of 11 damage, right?


-Give them Wis to hit/damage in place of strength.Str is easily multiplied, where as Wis would be good to have. Add it in addition to Str (unless either is a negative value) so you can gain those extra multipliers on Power Attack and such.

[(Un)Inspired]

Hey sorry I've late to this discussion. Has anyone suggested how powerful monks are because they can use cross-classed ranks in UMD to activate partially charged wands yet?

[Story]

Nope. Noone has proposed sundering items without provoking Foresight yet either (except as a joke). I think certain people probably aren't here any more.

[eggynack]

Don't forget about using VoP along with DM created relics in order to gain all of the power of items without using actual items. Hell, one of them could even grant casting. It's easily the greatest tool in the monk arsenal, and none of you could even begin to understand its greatness.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't forget about using VoP along with DM created relics in order to gain all of the power of items without using actual items. Hell, one of them could even grant casting. It's easily the greatest tool in the monk arsenal, and none of you could even begin to understand its greatness.

I can't grasp the greatness!

[eggynack]

I can't grasp the greatness!
Of course you can't. I don't think the Giantitp crowd is educated enough about monks or VoP to really speak with any authority about either one.

[TheLastSane1]

Should someone who wants to play a monk really just play a Swordsage? I mean just because you give it the unarmed strike progression makes it a better monk?

[Story]

Should someone who wants to play a monk really just play a Swordsage? I mean just because you give it the unarmed strike progression makes it a better monk?

Yes, unless you want to be a Tashaltora psychic warrior instead.


Don't forget about using VoP along with DM created relics in order to gain all of the power of items without using actual items. Hell, one of them could even grant casting. It's easily the greatest tool in the monk arsenal, and none of you could even begin to understand its greatness.

Can't believe I forgot that one.

[eggynack]

Can't believe I forgot that one.
Yeah, that was some fantastic stuff. I think it just wasn't snappy or broadly applicable enough to find its way into stuff in the same way as partially charged wands do.

[TheLastSane1]

But how is what I am asking. Is it just because its a tier 3 with equal unarmed strike?

If you threw Unarmed Strike onto Warblade or Crusader would they make better monks?

[Sir Chuckles]

But how is what I am asking. Is it just because its a tier 3 with equal unarmed strike?

If you threw Unarmed Strike onto Warblade or Crusader would they make better monks?

Yes.

They'll have more options, better hit dice, better BaB, better versatility, better class features, and more damage output.

[(Un)Inspired]

Yeah, that was some fantastic stuff. I think it just wasn't snappy or broadly applicable enough to find its way into stuff in the same way as partially charged wands do.

It's cause that dastardly villain Jade_Tarem came in with his reasonable anecdote and shut down the argument pretty quickly.

[TheLastSane1]

So then why isn't the argument "Throw the swordsage maneuvers onto a monk"?

[eggynack]

But how is what I am asking. Is it just because its a tier 3 with equal unarmed strike?

It has a lot of monk-feel, with a few reasonable supernatural abilities, including teleportation, and wisdom to AC, and moderate quantities of skillfulness, and you're just generally a vaguely magical face beating class. Really, I'd consider an armed swordsage to act as a reasonable monk facsimile, but going unarmed pushes you pretty far in a monk direction.

[TheLastSane1]

So it is the maneuvers not the class features aside from that.

So if you had a Qinggong Monk from PF and threw on Swordsage Maneuvers and progression. What do you get?

[eggynack]

So it is the maneuvers not the class features aside from that.
Mostly, but really a swordsage is its maneuvers beyond everything else. I think the way the swordsage is designed is fine though, and that there's no reason to do all this mix and match with monks of any kind.


It's cause that dastardly villain Jade_Tarem came in with his reasonable anecdote and shut down the argument pretty quickly.
True enough, I suppose. Y'know, these people get left behind, and it's almost certainly a good thing for the health of the community, but I can't help but miss their particular brands of insanity sometimes.

[Seerow]

Should someone who wants to play a monk really just play a Swordsage? I mean just because you give it the unarmed strike progression makes it a better monk?

It's not -just- the unarmed strike progression. The Swordsage has a lot of martial arts and wuxia style maneuvers that the monk wishes he had access to. We're talking things like teleporting while still having actions left to attack. Striking enemies to paralyze them. Grabbing and throwing enemies. Luring an opponent into attacking you so you can attack them. Jump huge distances, gain blindsense. That's just a fraction of it. So many of a swordsage's abilities are either better versions of what a Monk gets, or something that fits the monk archetype but the monk just doesn't have, that it's not even funny. That's the reason people say to play unarmed swordsage instead of monk. Getting unarmed damage progression and wis to AC just makes it superficially similar enough to hit the baselines.

[Seerow]

So it is the maneuvers not the class features aside from that.

So if you had a Qinggong Monk from PF and threw on Swordsage Maneuvers and progression. What do you get?

You end up with a pretty good class. But now you're in the realm of homebrew, and generally people come looking for a way to make their monk work by the rules. If you're looking for homebrew fixes, there's dozens of them in the homebrew forum.

[(Un)Inspired]

It's not -just- the unarmed strike progression. The Swordsage has a lot of martial arts and wuxia style maneuvers that the monk wishes he had access to. We're talking things like teleporting while still having actions left to attack. Striking enemies to paralyze them. Grabbing and throwing enemies. Luring an opponent into attacking you so you can attack them. Jump huge distances, gain blindsense. That's just a fraction of it. So many of a swordsage's abilities are either better versions of what a Monk gets, or something that fits the monk archetype but the monk just doesn't have, that it's not even funny. That's the reason people say to play unarmed swordsage instead of monk. Getting unarmed damage progression and wis to AC just makes it superficially similar enough to hit the baselines.


Well said Seerow

[TheLastSane1]

I am saying most of those come from the maneuvers with a few coming from class features.

Not that there is not any class features that fit the monk theme but I am not seeing all the much that focuses on monk. Its monk like sure. But that is like saying you are playing a fighter because that is sorta like a cleric

EDIT: Unarmed Swordsage is a homebrew. Also Unarmed Swordsage does not get Wis to Ac according to what is listed.

[Story]

So then why isn't the argument "Throw the swordsage maneuvers onto a monk"?

Because then you'd have a Swordsage. It's the same reason you don't say "fix the Commoner by giving it Wizard casting".

Of course the hypothetical Commoner-Wizard would be giving up power for flavor. It wouldn't even get a familiar, after all.

[eggynack]

I am saying most of those come from the maneuvers with a few coming from class features.

Not that there is not any class features that fit the monk theme but I am not seeing all the much that focuses on monk. Its monk like sure. But that is like saying you are playing a fighter because that is sorta like a cleric
The maneuvers are the class features. You're acting like they're these two separate entities, but they're not.


EDIT: Unarmed Swordsage is a homebrew. Also Unarmed Swordsage does not get Wis to Ac according to what is listed.
No, it's an adaptation. And the unarmed swordsage gets wis to AC because the swordsage gets wis to AC. The only issue is that the AC bonus isn't changed to be usable with no armor, but that's just another similarity that swordsages share with monks, given the whole lacking unarmed strike proficiency thing.

[ryu]

Because then you'd have a Swordsage. It's the same reason you don't say "fix the Commoner by giving it Wizard casting".

Of course the hypothetical Commoner-Wizard would be giving up power for flavor. It wouldn't even get a familiar, after all.

I disagree so long as it still gets access to any ACFs it likes. Even without a familiar you now have wizard that can take chicken infested.

[TheLastSane1]

My point is if you where to take away the maneuvers of the swordsage it wouldn't be a better monk. I am saying what makes it a 'better' monk is the maneuvers.

The unarmed swordsage is a variant that is DM run. Its a homebrew that is officially published. They give suggestions for the homebrew that is it. By their suggestions you do not even get Wis to AC without a feat tax.

[Seerow]

I am saying most of those come from the maneuvers with a few coming from class features.

Not that there is not any class features that fit the monk theme but I am not seeing all the much that focuses on monk. Its monk like sure. But that is like saying you are playing a fighter because that is sorta like a cleric

EDIT: Unarmed Swordsage is a homebrew. Also Unarmed Swordsage does not get Wis to Ac according to what is listed.

1) Maneuvers are class features. Every bit as much as Spells are a Wizard's features, or Soulmelds are a Totemist's features, or Powers are a Psiwar's features. Do you think that a Psiwar is worse than the Fighter because powers don't count? If you consider a class only the named abilities on their class table, then you won't ever find any good classes, because the best classes are the ones that use resource subsystems with ability lists too long to stick on the table.

2)Unarmed Swordsage is a variant described in the class. It might not be as nice as a full written up ACF/Class, but it's a step above homebrew to most people. Also Swordsages get Wis to AC by default, unless you're going by the RAW that Swordsages get their wis bonus only in light armor, and not when unarmored. Even if you do go with that, you just wear light armor anyway and blow the feat on Superior Unarmed Strike. Still going to be better than a monk.

[Reprimand]

Front-line fighter style character with Multiple Attribute Dependency, average BaB and D8 HD.

No sneak or skirmish damage to mitigate low damage output due to lack of hits/low str due to MAD. You will argue that this can be offset with size and psuedo size increases but this can also be done with any melee class. but you can never really make up for -5 Bab when all the same bonuses can also be applied to someone with full Bab.

Greater mighty wallop would also assume you can get your caster to use it on you everyday and always sacrifice a spell slot for that or spend money and an item slot to use it.

The monk I suppose can use the spring attack chain but the prereqs hurt and eat up like 5 slots if you go all the way with it.

[eggynack]

My point is if you where to take away the maneuvers of the swordsage it wouldn't be a better monk. I am saying what makes it a 'better' monk is the maneuvers.
Alright. I don't see the problem with that. Wizards are pretty much just commoners with bonus feats without their casting.


The unarmed swordsage is a variant that is DM run. Its a homebrew that is officially published. They give suggestions for the homebrew that is it. By their suggestions you do not even get Wis to AC without a feat tax.
Everything in the books is homebrew that is officially published. They give pretty explicit definition for what occurs, and it's pretty much fair game as a result.

Edit: Fittingly, I've been swordsage'd.

[TheLastSane1]

Variant is the same as a Homebrew. That is like saying rather then call a fighter with sorcerer spell list/progression a homebrew I say its a variant fighter.

I am simply saying that without the maneuvers it does not possess class features to be this Monk +++

[Seerow]

Variant is the same as a Homebrew. That is like saying rather then call a fighter with sorcerer spell list/progression a homebrew I say its a variant fighter.

Variant is variant. If it's published in a book, it's not homebrew. There's really no logical ground to fall back on for your stance here. Is Dungeoncrasher homebrew? Monk Fighting Styles from UA? Barbarian Totems?


I am simply saying that without the maneuvers it does not possess class features to be this Monk +++

And maneuvers are still class features, no matter what you say. The maneuvers give you the ability to do everything the monk's class features do, and then some.

[eggynack]

Variant is the same as a Homebrew. That is like saying rather then call a fighter with sorcerer spell list/progression a homebrew I say its a variant fighter.
No it's not. Homebrew is brew you brew at home. Variants and adaptation are rulesets sanctioned by the actual books. If the book says that fighters with sorcerer casting can exist, then they can, and if they don't, and you're just finagling class features together, then it's homebrew.

I am simply saying that without the maneuvers it does not possess class features to be this Monk +++
Alright. So what?

[ryu]

Variant is the same as a Homebrew. That is like saying rather then call a fighter with sorcerer spell list/progression a homebrew I say its a variant fighter.

I am simply saying that without the maneuvers it does not possess class features to be this Monk +++

Except maneuvers are class features. Spells are also class features. Powers too. Also soulmelds. Yes also incarnum stuff. Even good old fashioned fighter bonus feats are class features. Now fighter bonus feats aren't GOOD class features mind, but they're still class features.

[TheLastSane1]

The DMG for 3.5 gives guidelines and examples the same as ToB does for a Witch class as much of a class a specific caster is in 3.5. By your definition this classes built by a DM is a variant rule not a homebrew.

[Talya]

EDIT: Unarmed Swordsage is a homebrew. Also Unarmed Swordsage does not get Wis to Ac according to what is listed.

To clarify what Eggynack said:

The Unarmed Swordsage adaptation is specifically statted up in the Tome of Battle with detail. You can use it as is and it works.

The adaptation does NOT take wisdom to AC away from the unarmed swordsage, and it is, in fact, better than the monk Wisdom to AC because they can use it while wearing armor. (and in fact, MUST use it while wearing armor.)

[Seerow]

The DMG for 3.5 gives guidelines and examples the same as ToB does for a Witch class as much of a class a specific caster is in 3.5. By your definition this classes built by a DM is a variant rule not a homebrew.

That Witch Spell List is in the book explicitly as an example of how to do homebrew. That's a really bad comparison.

Even despite that, if a DM wanted to say "Wizards use the Witch spell list from the DMG Page 175 instead of their normal spell list", no that would not be homebrew. Because they are referencing material in the books instead of something that was made by a non-designer.

[TheLastSane1]

To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

^
Where is the stats in this? It gives a suggestion to use if you want too. Just the DMG suggests that you can make a class using other classes features if you want.

Also why does the SS have Evasion at level 9? Isn't that a tad late?

[eggynack]

To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

^
Where is the stats in this? It gives a suggestion to use if you want too. Just the DMG suggests that you can make a class using other classes features if you want.
That's all of the stats. You take the swordsage, which is concretely defined, add unarmed strike progression, which is also defined, and remove light armor proficiency, which is as defined as the other two, and that's everything. What input am I having in this process? If everything necessary is in the books, and someone from outside the game is creating nothing, it's not homebrew.

[Seerow]

To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

^
Where is the stats in this? It gives a suggestion to use if you want too. Just the DMG suggests that you can make a class using other classes features if you want.


You lose armor proficiency, gain unarmed strike damage. Where is the confusion? You don't need a mile long write up for such a simple change.

The book tells you what you lose and what you gain. I don't know how much more clear you want it to be. Does it need to be in bullet points for you to accept it as official?


Also why does the SS have Evasion at level 9? Isn't that a tad late?

Why is this relevant? But either way, no. Evasion is one of those nice features that whenever you get it, will be useful. It's not something that comes online at level 2 and becomes obsolete at level 3. Yes level 9 is later than other classes get it. Luckily missing it until level 9 doesn't cripple you, and you get all sorts of other nice things to make it up to you in the meantime.

[TheLastSane1]

Sorry that was my ADHD acting up and nothing something weird.

Also by that logic however, then so long as you where only directly copying definable class features it would never be considered a homebrew.
So if giving the Swordsage Unarmed Strike Progression of a Monk is a Adaptation or Variant and not a homebrew giving a Bard sorcerer spell known and spells per day progression would be an Adaptation as well.

My point is knitpicking the word Homebrew and Variant is stupid they are all just suggestions and ideas one can use to have more fun.

So yeah giving a Monk Swordsage Maneuvers would be a Variant Monk. Would that be a good thing or bad thing?
What if you gave the Swordsage more monk features like Flurry of Blows, with the amendment that since it can strike as maneuvers that maneuvers can be flurried.

[Petrocorus]

I will point out one of the (many) thread that already have addressed the question:Why Tier 5s are Tier 5s (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14605216&postcount=6)


I would say that's actually something they do wrong. Monk is essentially a trap for new players that promise awesomeness and deliver mediocrity.
It's normally the DM's job to avoid that problem.


Initiators would be far superior, and Rogues/Barbarians would still outperform them overall.
We all agree here that Swordsage are Monk done well, even Warblade can do well with unarmed strike and be tuned to fit the flavour.

2) By RAW Monks aren't proficient with their own unarmed strikes. Of course this one never gets enforced (and never should) but only serves as a testament to how poorly designed the class is.

Speaking of bad design someone should have written a manual of style for the design team, one of the tenants should have been "Thou shalt not give primary melee combatants less than full BAB". Seriously, the Monk clearly has no other purpose other than hitting things. What possible reason is there to give it 3/4 BAB?
The brokenness the Monk comes from the same reason that the brokenness (in a way or the other) of the Paladin, the Druid, the Fireball, the Polymorph line and many other stuffs. It has been transcripted from the previous edition (almost a copypasta in some case) without taking account of the change in many of the base rules like the end of the abilities requirement for entering a class and the different level progressions for each class, or the augmentation of average HP, notably for monsters, the creation of the Feats, etc. Not to mention the inflation of the numbers of feats, ACF, spells, and magic items available to everybody. Monk have mid BAB because they had the same Thaco than the cleric in previous Ed, IIRC.


Honestly, the monk should have been a psionic class from the beginning.
I always thin that PsyWar was a good way and less flavour specific version of the monk, or at least can be tuned as this. And a Claw-focussed PsyWar can certainly be a better Monk than the Monk, even without being the most optimized version of the PsyWar.

Yes, unless you want to be a Tashaltora psychic warrior instead.

Or a Tashalatora Ardent. With the Substitute Power ACF, Ardent can be better PsyWar than the PsyWar.

[eggynack]

Also by that logic however, then so long as you where only directly copying definable class features it would never be considered a homebrew.
So if giving the Swordsage Unarmed Strike Progression of a Monk is a Adaptation or Variant and not a homebrew giving a Bard sorcerer spell known and spells per day progression would be an Adaptation as well.

My point is knitpicking the word Homebrew and Variant is stupid they are all just suggestions and ideas one can use to have more fun.

So yeah giving a Monk Swordsage Maneuvers would be a Variant Monk. Would that be a good thing or bad thing?
What if you gave the Swordsage more monk features like Flurry of Blows, with the amendment that since it can strike as maneuvers that maneuvers can be flurried.
The way that the parts of the game are put together is also a book provided thing, and altering that is homebrew, if not especially clever homebrew. I'm also not entirely sure why you want to give the monk maneuvers so much. What are you really getting by giving the monk maneuvers, that you can't get by just using an unarmed swordsage? Monks are kinda poorly designed.

[Seerow]

Sorry that was my ADHD acting up and nothing something weird.

Also by that logic however, then so long as you where only directly copying definable class features it would never be considered a homebrew.
So if giving the Swordsage Unarmed Strike Progression of a Monk is a Adaptation or Variant and not a homebrew giving a Bard sorcerer spell known and spells per day progression would be an Adaptation as well.

My point is knitpicking the word Homebrew and Variant is stupid they are all just suggestions and ideas one can use to have more fun.

So yeah giving a Monk Swordsage Maneuvers would be a Variant Monk. Would that be a good thing or bad thing?
What if you gave the Swordsage more monk features like Flurry of Blows, with the amendment that since it can strike as maneuvers that maneuvers can be flurried.

You're still missing the point. Giving a Monk maneuvers isn't a variant monk, because there is nothing in any book ever printed that says "Give these maneuvers to the monk for X".

That's the difference you're missing. The adaptation in the book explicitly tells you what you get and what you give up. It's not just that the Monk Unarmed strike progression has already been written elsewhere. It's that at no point does the GM need to decide what is appropriate to give up to get it. It's already spelled out for him in the book.

If you can't find something in a book saying "The Fighter gives up X to gain spells" or "The Monk gives up Y to gain Maneuvers", then you are dealing in homebrew. You cannot equivocate the two.





Now if we want to talk about a homebrew martial adept monk, sure that can be done and have a result that is good. As I already said when it was first brought up, you can dig through the homebrew forums and find dozens of decent monk fixes, some of which probably even use maneuvers. The problem is that Homebrew is not what most people are looking for when they come asking for build advice.

[TheLastSane1]

Nothing I was more pointing out anyone given those maneuvers and unarmed strike progression seems to be vetted as a better monk. So it does not come down to the Swordsage itself but rather that specific feature of the class.

And how do you rank Arcane Swordsage? Is it a Variant/Adaptation or a Homebrew? It does not give specifics on what features it gives loose suggestions as to what would likely fit best.

Myself I love a lot of the abilities of the monk such as Quivering Palm, ki pools, Abundant step, and others are cool features.
So to me personally I would like to just make the class better then simply dumping all that cool fluff and throwing it onto a very generic build and say its better at it. I mean after all we know Wizards are the best monks, fighters, etc.

[Sir Chuckles]

Homebrew is not the same as a variant. I've actually seen this idea crop up more than once recently, and there needs to be some clarification.

Homebrew is when you holistically make it yourself, outside of the realm of published WotC books.
A variant CAN be homebrew, as in someone could homebrew a class variant, but in this case it is not. The Unarmed Swordsage, Fangshield Ranger, Racial Substitution levels, ect are all published variants. They are not homebrew. Once something is published as game rule information, it is no longer homebrew. Dragon Magazine might be an exception to some, however.

Now, it could still be houserule, but that's also different from homebrew. I houserule that Prestige Classes are allowed, much like someone could houserule that Fighters do not exist. That is not homebrew.

[Seerow]

Arcane Swordsage is also a variant/adaptation, just not one that people will advise using because as written it's pretty broken.


I love a lot of the abilities of the monk such as Quivering Palm, ki pools, Abundant step

Quivering Palm-Fort Save or die. I know there's at least one maneuver that handles this.
Ki Pools-Stunning Fist is replicated with a number of maneuvers. As is turning invisible, gaining concealment, and a lot of the other things PF monks get to do with their Ki.
Abundant Step-Shadow Jaunt maneuver line. Instead of 1/day do it 1-3 times an encounter, and don't waste your whole turn doing it! Oh and start doing it earlier.


Seriously most of those 'awesome' monk abilities are awful, and are easily replicated in a better form by a maneuver.

[eggynack]

Nothing I was more pointing out anyone given those maneuvers and unarmed strike progression seems to be vetted as a better monk. So it does not come down to the Swordsage itself but rather that specific feature of the class.
That specific feature is pretty much the entire class.


And how do you rank Arcane Swordsage? Is it a Variant/Adaptation or a Homebrew? It does not give specifics on what features it gives loose suggestions as to what would likely fit best.
It's probably a variant or adaptation of some kind, as long as you assert that the parameters given are sufficient for understanding their casting. People just don't talk as much about the arcane swordsage, because it's incomprehensibly stupid, while the unarmed swordsage is cool.


Myself I love a lot of the abilities of the monk such as Quivering Palm, ki pools, Abundant step, and others are cool features.
I dunno, they mostly seem to be a poorly designed mess to me.


So to me personally I would like to just make the class better then simply dumping all that cool fluff and throwing it onto a very generic build and say its better at it. I mean after all we know Wizards are the best monks, fighters, etc.
But it's not generic. It has maneuvers, and those maneuvers are very flavorful, and it has a few abilities. Swordsages are generic in the way that clerics or wizards are generic. In that they're really not.

[Gavinfoxx]

People who say, "I like the monk as it seems to be!"... have you read this?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[TheLastSane1]

And I understand most if not all monk abilities can be copied and done better. I am saying those are my draws to the class along with its flavor.

Swordages are meant to be more generic and generalized with a LOT of potential for fluff depending on how you choose to play the character. You can be the swashbuckler type, the monk type, or the dude sitting in the corner of the local bar who just happens to be really good when the bar fight breaks out.

I am curious I read all this complaining about no Full BAB for Monk yet Swordsage's 3/4 is perfect? The moderate HD was bad for a monk but good for the sage?
Why is having a worse Fortitude save a good thing?

[Amphetryon]

I am curious I read all this complaining about no Full BAB for Monk yet Swordsage's 3/4 is perfect? The moderate HD was bad for a monk but good for the sage?
Why is having a worse Fortitude save a good thing?
Swordsages get sufficient Class features - including but not limited to their Maneuvers - to keep their 3/4 BAB and worse Fort saves from crippling their efficacy. Monks do not get sufficient Class features to make up for their 3/4 BAB (full-BAB is one of the most recommended things to 'fix' the Monk), or to make their good Fort save a feature worth seeking on its own merits.

[Seerow]

I am curious I read all this complaining about no Full BAB for Monk yet Swordsage's 3/4 is perfect? The moderate HD was bad for a monk but good for the sage?
Why is having a worse Fortitude save a good thing?

Because the Swordsage gets enough good things to make up for that failing, and the Monk does not. It's really as simple as that.

Mid BAB, all Good Saves, and d8 hd isn't a bad chasis to work with. See other tier-3 melee types (Psiwar, Totemist) who have worse and are considered better, just like the Swordsage.

People complain about the Monk being low because he doesn't get those nice things to balance it out. If the Monk had full BAB, there'd be less complaining because at least he's good at hitting things. The problem is that everything the Monk attempts to do, he is bad at.

On the other end of things, if all of the monk's special abilities got tweaked upward to the point they were useful, people wouldn't complain about the mid BAB/HD. If that AC bonus scaled faster; he was less MAD (say get Wis to hit/damage, so you can focus on Wis/Con as your two main stats); Ki Strike came with a soulknife-esque bonus progression; slow fall was just an always on feather fall; flurry could be used as part of a standard action; abundant step was usable as a move/swift action somewhere between 1-2x per encounter and 10+ times a day; Stunning Fist upgraded to last more than a round; Still Mind eventually provided Mind Blank; Quivering Palm could be used more often; Tongue of Sun and Moon came online at like level 3 instead of ****ing 17; and so on... yeah, the Monk would be a good class.

But once again, that's into the realm of homebrew, and people have done stuff like that already (see the link someone posted a couple posts up to Jiriku's fix, it's generally considered pretty good if you want a Monk cranked up to playable levels without maneuvers/psionics/whatever).



And I understand most if not all monk abilities can be copied and done better. I am saying those are my draws to the class along with its flavor.


Now what flavor do you lose if you play the Swordsage and pick the most monk-like maneuvers? You are able to do everything the monk does, usually earlier and more often. Anything extra you get to do can still easily fit the theme. You aren't losing anything flavorwise, you're just gaining in effectiveness.

[TheLastSane1]

...So the answer is "Its got teh maneuvers" that about sum it up?
It has a total of 7 class features, 8 class features if you count the ability to use maneuvers as a feature.

And yes there are some of us who just don't know maneuvers by heart like the lot of you do. Began D&Ding last year in mid july. I have learned a ton of systems and yes Maneuvers just seem like more 'meh' to me with more rules for performing a martial action then should be required.

Also as a fan of Monk//Psionic gestalts I just don't get the same flavor for the character who has poured his life into learning to make his mind and body reach the peak of their potential.

Now I am sure there are some of the fans of the SS saying right now "but the Swordsage is even better then that it could totally be like five times as peak as monk"

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm going to quote myself for how to be a good monk:

Step 1. Don't be Monk for anything more than 2 levels.

Step 2. See Step 1.

..........

What happened was that WotC really dropped the ball when they made the Monk. So much that they wrote several ways of doing things that can be considered 'Monk v.2.0'. Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the character class, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps--, so you can take it or not as you want. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1, I think). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (like pearl of speech, magic item compendium), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape, etc.).

[Qwertystop]

I disagree so long as it still gets access to any ACFs it likes. Even without a familiar you now have wizard that can take chicken infested.

So instead of a single magic animal, you have an infinite supply of normal ones (as longs as all of them are chickens)

[Seerow]

And yes there are some of us who just don't know maneuvers by heart like the lot of you do. Began D&Ding last year in mid july. I have learned a ton of systems and yes Maneuvers just seem like more 'meh' to me with more rules for performing a martial action then should be required.


That's because each individual maneuver is a class feature. You like your monk because he has 20 monkish class features. Now instead look at a Swordsage with not 8, but 33 of them. And now realize that almost all of those are better in every way than what the Monk's equivalent is.

Seriously, you don't need to know the maneuvers all by heart. I've been playing since long before ToB was even a twinkle in the designers' eyes. I've used ToB regularly in campaigns since it came out. I still don't know them all by heart. When I go to build a new character, I open the book and go look for what I want.

I'm sure somebody could build a sample Swordsage with monk-esque maneuvers to give a good feel for what it's capable of, but seriously it doesn't hurt to pull out the book and just sit down and read when everybody is telling you it does exactly what you want.

[TheLastSane1]

Most of the Swordsages features are rather meh to be honest. the Sense magic feature is useful sure but hardly something that stands out. Evasion and Improved Evasion are faster on Monk and other classes but still a nice choice.

Discipline focus works on a single or two disciplines so you need to focus early and often on one build.

Really it is only the maneuvers that matter at all. The others are nice little additions but really would the Swordsage be less useful to say drop a tier without them?

Yes the monk is a horrible class I agree the maker should have been tarred and feathered but that is beside the point.

[Seerow]

Really it is only the maneuvers that matter at all. The others are nice little additions but really would the Swordsage be less useful to say drop a tier without them?

Yes, drop the maneuvers from a swordsage and it probably drops down to Tier6, because at that point it actually is worse than a monk.

Yes maneuvers make that big of a deal.

Yes maneuvers are the class features that actually matter.

Which is why no, you can't just ignore the maneuvers when comparing a Swordsage to anything else.

[eggynack]

Really it is only the maneuvers that matter at all. The others are nice little additions but really would the Swordsage be less useful to say drop a tier without them?
Yes, and maybe even more than a tier. It's all about the maneuvers. The maneuvers are the class, and the class is the maneuvers.


Yes the monk is a horrible class I agree the maker should have been tarred and feathered but that is beside the point.
Then why am I returning to it in order to build to the archetype, instead of using the class that was designed well?

[Qwertystop]

Yes, drop the maneuvers from a swordsage and it probably drops down to Tier6, because at that point it actually is worse than a monk.

Yes maneuvers make that big of a deal.

Yes maneuvers are the class features that actually matter.

Which is why no, you can't just ignore the maneuvers when comparing a Swordsage to anything else.

I think he was saying exactly the opposite of what you're saying, because his whole post was about how the other features were useless. Pretty sure it was "what if you dropped all the class features except Maneuvers".

[TheLastSane1]

I am just going with the popular choice here that Swordsage is basically flawless and the monk is a steaming pile at least from what I have seen here.

[eggynack]

I am just going with the popular choice here that Swordsage is basically flawless and the monk is a steaming pile at least from what I have seen here.
It's probably not flawless, but yeah, pretty much. I don't see the problem with that stance. The swordsage is really well designed, and the monk is the opposite of that.

Edit: Heh. Stance.

[Starbuck_II]

Ki Pools-Stunning Fist is

A feat! Seriously, if you lower the Prereq to sanity levels and make everyone 1 use/level, the feat is useful for all.
These nerfs are the only reason no one else uses it.

[(Un)Inspired]

Honestly if you dropped the maneuvers from a swordsage and slightly rejiggered its class features to not involve maneuvers I would probably still play one over a monk.

Free weapon focus isn't amazing but it helps mid bab at low levels

An initiative bonus is always great

If we assume the save bonus and wis to damage to be only a few times a day instead of in conjunction with maneuvers they still exist as a compliment to a swordsage's fighting power.

Sense Magic doesn't set the world on fire but I'd rather have it than immunity to all non dangerous diseases or immunity to enlarge person.

Evasion does come online later than is does on a monk but I'm perfectly happy prolonging acquiring it in exchange for good skill points eahc level.

[ryu]

It's probably not flawless, but yeah, pretty much. I don't see the problem with that stance. The swordsage is really well designed, and the monk is the opposite of that.

Edit: Heh. Stance.

The only major flaw you might wriggle out is a few extremely poorly worded maneuvers. For example just look at Iron Heart Surge, come back here, and we can start talking about how its extreme vagueness allows it to break the freaking sun.

[Beowulf DW]

*Points down at signature.*

[(Un)Inspired]

The only major flaw you might wriggle out is a few extremely poorly worded maneuvers. For example just look at Iron Heart Surge, come back here, and we can start talking about how its extreme vagueness allows it to break the freaking sun.

Breaking the sun isn't even a problem compared to breaking strong nuclear force or electromagnetism.

[Seerow]

The only major flaw you might wriggle out is a few extremely poorly worded maneuvers. For example just look at Iron Heart Surge, come back here, and we can start talking about how its extreme vagueness allows it to break the freaking sun.

Iron Heart Surge isn't a Swordsage maneuver, so not really a good argument against Swordsages. The other regularly cited one (White Raven Tactics) is also not from a Swordsage discipline.

[eggynack]

The only major flaw you might wriggle out is a few extremely poorly worded maneuvers. For example just look at Iron Heart Surge, come back here, and we can start talking about how its extreme vagueness allows it to break the freaking sun.
Yeah, true enough. That's really more of a piece of warblade stupidity though, with the crusader ones being stuff like the 1d2 crusader, the idiot crusader, and white raven tactics (also for warblades, obviously), and the swordsage ones being the Ex teleportation and weird first level skill bump, though I actually kinda like that latter one. Still the overall design is pretty great, even if there are some bumps here and there.

[Sir Chuckles]

The only major flaw you might wriggle out is a few extremely poorly worded maneuvers. For example just look at Iron Heart Surge, come back here, and we can start talking about how its extreme vagueness allows it to break the freaking sun.

Sooo...a Fire Elemental who picked that up? Or a Fire Subtype Undead (does not breathe) could borrow several wands of fly and destroy the sun? I like that.

Anyway, ignoring maneuvers on a ToB class is like ignoring spells on a Druid.

What I'm curious on is what the argument is here. Is TheLast"sane"1 trying to defend the Monk? Or his personal choice? If it's the latter, then it doesn't matter what either side says, as he's having fun and we can't stop him.

Or are we trying to explain why the Monk is a terrible clustereggplant of poorly designed, and sometimes poorly worded, "features" that come far too little too late? Because it seems we all understand that...

[TheLastSane1]

Here is my homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17132187#post17132187) I made, I did focus on the monk as a first class. And yes I prefer them personally.

[eggynack]

Anyway, ignoring maneuvers on a ToB class is like ignoring spells on a Druid.

I'd probably go with archivist or something. A druid without spells is kinda awesome. Archivists hit that nice balance of having abilities that aren't spells, but not having any particularly amazing abilities that aren't spells.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'd probably go with archivist or something. A druid without spells is kinda awesome. Archivists hit that nice balance of having abilities that aren't spells, but not having any particularly amazing abilities that aren't spells.

Well at least I didn't say Wizard.

[Nihilarian]

I'm not sure I understand the point of stapling maneuvers onto the monk when maneuvers already do most of what a monk does, but better.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm not sure I understand the point of stapling maneuvers onto the monk when maneuvers already do most of what a monk does, but better.

Thus, the inherent design problem with the Monk (and, to an extent, Fighter).

It's a simple matter of "It was practically the first thing we made".

[Captnq]

None of you get monk.

Monk has a secret power. It's not listed under the Class features so most people miss it. It's called, CHEAP WEAPONS.

Allow me to explain:

By the rules, a normal person is only allowed to wield two weapons. That means he can only benefit from having two weapons at the ready. While so many people may claim that you can stick extra WSAs in your elbow blade and what not, by the rules, if you aren't prepared to stab someone with it, it's not ready, and you don't get the benefit. So pick two weapons and make them count.

Monks have 9 locations at the ready.

Those nine locations can get WSAs from implants, ward cestus/battle gauntlets, NoNW, BoS, and even the Kensi class (if you are that stupid)

Energy damage stacks. It's theoretically possible to have 15d6 Acid/15d6Cold/15d6 whatever fists of death. You simply cannot make that sort of weapon any other way without going epic. The other 8 locations have all the defensive powers. Or you buy Flying (+1 WSA) nine times and your entire body acts like 9 different animated objects that each attack one at a time. Sure the chance to hit is a natural 20. It's 9 times a round for only 18,000 gp.

Yes, they are a one trick pony, but it's a good trick. If I can only hit you on a natural 20, I'm going to attack you 20 times. If I hit, my triple dagger morphed into a ward cestus makes each blow do triple damage. My Fist has sizing on it so it's large enough to two hand wield (for the extra damage of a full power attack) and I used oil of greater mighty wallop. Gonna miss a whole lot, but when I hit, I doubt I'll need to do it twice.

Remarkably cheap for a monk to pull off.

Stop trying to compare the Class abilities. They suck. The monk's strength is and has always been the ability to min/max multiple obscene "weapons" with horrific amounts of damage at minimal WBL cost.

[Juntao112]

Monks have 9 locations at the ready.

10, if male.

[Rubik]

None of you get monk.

Monk has a secret power. It's not listed under the Class features so most people miss it. It's called, CHEAP WEAPONS.

Allow me to explain:

By the rules, a normal person is only allowed to wield two weapons. That means he can only benefit from having two weapons at the ready. While so many people may claim that you can stick extra WSAs in your elbow blade and what not, by the rules, if you aren't prepared to stab someone with it, it's not ready, and you don't get the benefit. So pick two weapons and make them count.

Monks have 9 locations at the ready.

Those nine locations can get WSAs from implants, ward cestus/battle gauntlets, NoNW, BoS, and even the Kensi class (if you are that stupid)

Energy damage stacks. It's theoretically possible to have 15d6 Acid/15d6Cold/15d6 whatever fists of death. You simply cannot make that sort of weapon any other way without going epic. The other 8 locations have all the defensive powers. Or you buy Flying (+1 WSA) nine times and your entire body acts like 9 different animated objects that each attack one at a time. Sure the chance to hit is a natural 20. It's 9 times a round for only 18,000 gp.

Yes, they are a one trick pony, but it's a good trick. If I can only hit you on a natural 20, I'm going to attack you 20 times. If I hit, my triple dagger morphed into a ward cestus makes each blow do triple damage. My Fist has sizing on it so it's large enough to two hand wield (for the extra damage of a full power attack) and I used oil of greater mighty wallop. Gonna miss a whole lot, but when I hit, I doubt I'll need to do it twice.

Remarkably cheap for a monk to pull off.

Stop trying to compare the Class abilities. They suck. The monk's strength is and has always been the ability to min/max multiple obscene "weapons" with horrific amounts of damage at minimal WBL cost.I prefer to stack everything onto my generic "unarmed strike," as so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[chaos_redefined]

Anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike can get what you are describing. Also, I don't think any DM I've played with would let that work. You are still only striking with one weapon at a time. You could argue that you could have multiple bane weapons, a warning weapon, and other stuff like that. But having all of them hit at the same time is not going to work.

[Talya]

I'm not sure I understand the point of stapling maneuvers onto the monk when maneuvers already do most of what a monk does, but better.

Well, you can synergize them. Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja is actually a decent build that benefits from Flurry of Blows.

[Rubik]

Anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike can get what you are describing. Also, I don't think any DM I've played with would let that work. You are still only striking with one weapon at a time. You could argue that you could have multiple bane weapons, a warning weapon, and other stuff like that. But having all of them hit at the same time is not going to work.You only have one "unarmed strike," and anything that applies to it applies to all of it, assuming it's not, say, an enhanced gauntlet or boot.

[Snowbluff]

Well, you can synergize them. Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja is actually a decent build that benefits from Flurry of Blows.

Nah, the best part of that is playing a Necropolitan with Human Heritage. When I play a concept... I TAKE IT TO THE MAX! YEAH! :smallfurious:

[TuggyNE]

Monks have 9 locations at the ready.

Didn't you already mention this earlier in this thread? And didn't I already express my doubt that this is in any way based on any RAW or RAI? And didn't you already neglect to post any sort of reasoning for this? :smallconfused:

[Nihilarian]

Well, you can synergize them. Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja is actually a decent build that benefits from Flurry of Blows.Doesn't Shadow Sun Ninja grant you flurry of blows without the monk level? I thought it did.

[The Trickster]

10, if male.

Well, a woman could have 11, depending on the size of their...

...wait what were we talking about again?

[Sir Chuckles]

Well, a woman could have 11, depending on the size of their...

...wait what were we talking about again?

*sigh*
...I'll get the BoEF...
...and the Nymphology one...

[squiggit]

... I'd like to see Zen Archer's Zen Archery become baseline for all monks (minus the bow requirement).

Monks have 9 locations at the ready.

Is there RAW for this of any sort?

[TheLastSane1]

Homebrew question about this Monk thing (Monkday after all)
Qinggong PF Monk
Give it full BAB, d10 HD, Ki pool is character level + Wis
Allow the Qinggong's features to not be one time replacements but rather floating features that allow the monk to use those abilities freely so long as they have Ki points to expend on them.

Would this make the PF Monk decent?

[Sir Chuckles]

Homebrew question about this Monk thing (Monkday after all)
Qinggong PF Monk
Give it full BAB, d10 HD, Ki pool is character level + Wis
Allow the Qinggong's features to not be one time replacements but rather floating features that allow the monk to use those abilities freely so long as they have Ki points to expend on them.

Would this make the PF Monk decent?

Yes.
It's not entirely known why this was not done in the first place. Aside from that Paizo and not-Wizards don't mix.

A Ninja's Ki pool is Class Level/2+Wisdom, so the Monk's pool would actually be better.
In fact, I'd change Character to class level, to avoid Monk 1/Something 19 having the same Ki as Monk 20, at least without one of those lovely little Theurge feats that make me squeal in joy.

[TheLastSane1]

What if you removed Slow fall feature and gave them at level 4 Feather Fall for 1 ki point per use. That gets ride of that painfully bad capstone.

Maybe add something like Insightful Strike adding Wis to Hit and Damage rolls with his Unarmed Strikes. This allows them to not need to pump Str as much as Wis would help boost damage.

To offset their slight need for Int and Cha maybe add something like Force of Insight adding Wis to Int and Cha based skill checks a number of times per day equal to his Wis modifier.

Those would be flavorful and fit well doesn't it? It would also allow a lot less focus on those three abilities.

Edit: That would be a good idea.

[Komatik]

...So the answer is "Its got teh maneuvers" that about sum it up?
It has a total of 7 class features, 8 class features if you count the ability to use maneuvers as a feature.

And yes there are some of us who just don't know maneuvers by heart like the lot of you do. Began D&Ding last year in mid july. I have learned a ton of systems and yes Maneuvers just seem like more 'meh' to me with more rules for performing a martial action then should be required.

Also as a fan of Monk//Psionic gestalts I just don't get the same flavor for the character who has poured his life into learning to make his mind and body reach the peak of their potential.

Now I am sure there are some of the fans of the SS saying right now "but the Swordsage is even better then that it could totally be like five times as peak as monk"

Just about every ability a Monk gets has a maneuver that does the same or super super similar thing, with the same or super super similar flavour. If you chose a maneuver/stance assortment for the Unarmed Swordsage and just wrote those onto a class feature sheet as preset things you get each level, you'd just have a richer-looking Monk that actually works mechanically.

As far as it being a complicated way of performing a martial action, it's really not. Actual martial arts are very much composed of defined techniques executed a certain way, techniques which you don't just forget after use, but can't realistically just be used over and over again in combat. Readying maneuvers is an excellent abstraction of this. It's pretty much the closest to how actual martial arts work that's ever been published by WotC.


Also as a fan of Monk//Psionic gestalts I just don't get the same flavor for the character who has poured his life into learning to make his mind and body reach the peak of their potential.

That's Swordsage. To an S, because there's no T in Swordsage.

[Man on Fire]

2) Lack of Ability Synergy

First time I've heard of this term, what does it mean?

Also, while we are on topic of Monks, I think of making my own monk fix. My goals are
1) Better damage and hit rate, while keeping flurry in some form
2) Expanded feat selection akin to fighter bonus feats
3) More variety via martial maneuvers and stances (it is related to idea of making all meele classes martial classes I once talked on this forum)
4) Fixing some of class features, like slow fall.

Anything else I should keep in mind?

[Komatik]

First time I've heard of this term, what does it mean?

Either that all the things they're supposed to be doing ask for different ability scores - Wis for special attacks, Str to hit at all and do any damage at all, Wis/Dex to have any AC, Con to not die. Int if you want to actually have the skills to be a reasonable scout.

That, or the fact that many of their class features just work against each other, the most prominent being Flurry of Blows which wants you to stand still and the movement speed bonus which wants you to move, but then you waste any damage output you could possibly have to begin with.


Contrast with a caster that wants a high casting stat and Con so they don't die and that's it. Or a martial adept who gets bonus damage from maneuvers and is much more free to focus on Str/Dex to hit things in the first place.

Martial adepts and casters both typically do their thing as a standard action so they can move and do something in combat. Or they do stuff like the Swordsage teleport that's a move action to teleport and then you have your standard action left to use some good maneuver to murder the opponent.

[Hecuba]

Remember my caveat. Totemists definitely get that.

The goal was to point out that your caveat applied (and why), not to disagree with it.

[SinsI]

Monks are unfortunately an extreemly stat hungry class. and even if you get all your optimal stats you are not necessarily optimal.
Not only there is a good chance your dm will look at you as an alien if you go with the 4 16s + they need to be effective, the other player will see you as an eyeshore for asking those rediculous stats. Then you will start underperforming unless its a low low magic campaign setting... But if it is a low low magic campaign setting, play a spellcaster. (marshal classes are screwed in that kind of settings unless the low low magic = a campaign wide antimagic field)

What if you start with all base 18 in a no-magic setting? Maybe there are conditions under which monks can shine?

[Beowulf DW]

What if you start with all base 18 in a no-magic setting? Maybe there are conditions under which monks can shine?

Just about any class that doesn't cast can shine under those conditions.