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War
2007-02-01, 03:25 AM
Just so you're forewarned, I have this awful tendency to make speeches whenever I start talking for too long. I apologize in advance.

Well, you folks don't need me to tell you that, in light of recent in-comic events, the forum's been going just about crazy discussing a few certain characters. Lines are being drawn, readers are being polarized. This stuff is getting almost as bad as the arguments over Belkar's and Thog's alignments, which were a fair bit more specious in origin. And in many ways the subject is very similar. Or at least, there's a certain perception of it that is.

The idea that, to be a fan of a character, one must agree with them. And that, therefore, if they do something you don't like, or have a recurring trait you don't like, you are obligated to find a way to write it off as nothing. Many people certainly seem to think their opponents have this mindset, but how many fans of currently-controversial characters actually do? Obviously, not a lot of people actually come out and say "I think Miko was right to do this because she's hot," so it's hard to exactly judge. I'm sure there are some.

Whichever side you're on, I want to make it plain that it's not true. Things don't have to work that way. For some people they do, and I think some of them like it that way, but personal bias is not the only motivation that exists. It is possible to agree with an unpopular decision without being deluded. And you don't have to struggle to make sure your favorite character is right all the time, either. Good people make mistakes, bad people have their reasons. That doesn't change who they are, it just makes them more real and more interesting.

So why let this idea continue? Do you feel that way, even if perhaps you don't consciously think it? Do you believe that everyone arguing against you must be arguing from the same reason? You don't have to.

As for me, I'll demonstrate. I think that many of Miko's actions are absolutely debatable, but there are some cases in which she was flat-out wrong. I think she's a fascinating character, I think she's a better person than circumstances and perspective have made her appear, I think her actions make 100% complete sense from her point of view, I think she's fairly deluded, and I think she made an enormous mistake. I want to see her development treated with respect and fairness, even though I expect it won't go anywhere pleasant.

Roy certainly has good reasons for attacking her now, but it's still not a great course of action. I think he's acting on impulse and emotion, I think things would have gone a lot better for everyone if he'd been calmer, and I think he's made a mistake that is overall less serious than Miko's, but strikingly similar in nature. And I think it'll be great if the strip treats it that way, cause I think he was getting kinda boring, and I think exploring that angle would make me like him more, not less.

Belkar and Thog are just evil, guys, seriously. I think there are a few cases which could be used as reasonable arguments to the contrary, except that those cases are in the vast minority and anyway there's official decrees saying otherwise, and I think they're perfectly fun as they are.

These are the characters you fell in love with. They haven't changed, they've always had these flaws and the capacity to make these mistakes. And to those of you who hate them, sorry, they still make sense, and no, one character being wrong doesn't make everyone else right. Hell, if Miko didn't have believable reasons for doing everything she's done, it wouldn't make her more of a bad person, just more badly written.

A real tragedy is not something bad people do to good. It's when good people, for good reasons, mess up and make things very, very bad.

Which is not to say we can't argue about the specifics and our interpretations, of course. Please, let's! :smallbiggrin:

Tadpole
2007-02-01, 05:38 AM
Yeah, the comic is great, the characters have awesome depth. If I were to sit down and really think about it, there are things I admire and dislike about pretty much every character. But who wants to spend time thinking about it? These aren't role models, and this isn't a pro-social Saturday morning cartoon from the 80s with moral messages in every one.

I'm too busy being entertained by the characters to wonder if I would admire or dislike their personalities or actions in real life. I don't know why there seem to be personality wars fought over the characters' effigies, or why people get polarized about it.

TreesOfDeath
2007-02-01, 05:42 AM
Scrubbed, just in case

Serenity
2007-02-01, 09:35 AM
I'm not defending Roy because I'm a fanf and feel I have to agree with him. I'm defending him because I firmly believe that he is right. Maybe he could have talked her down. Maybe he could have helped redeem her. Maybe, maybe, maybe.All those what-ifs still don't add up to Roy being wrong for moving immediately to take down a dangerous, unstable murderer. I wouldn't fault a paladin for doing as Roy did. Though with a paladin I suppose I might be a bit uncomfortable with the insults.

Silverlocke980
2007-02-01, 06:26 PM
This thread is reasonable, good, and humble.

For all these reasons, it will go unread by those who need to.

*Sigh.*

I'm a Roy supporter, but only because I agree with his actions, not his character... he is a wee bit jerkish and willing to use the OotS, in my opinion, but redeems himself from time to time on a regular basis.

Miko doesn't know what redemption is. (At the moment, literally.)

Mr Teufel
2007-02-01, 06:33 PM
This thread is reasonable, good, and humble.

For all these reasons, it will go unread by those who need to.

*Sigh.*



QFT

But if people didn't argue over these things, what would they post about?

PaladinBoy
2007-02-01, 06:39 PM
Well, I would say that I just like debate. That's one reason why I'm posting about the Miko and Roy issues. (In fact, I registered just to get in on the debate.) Another is that I particularly like debating morality, good and evil, etc., and part of the argument is about the morality of Roy's actions.

That said, I try to avoid debates that are too acrimonious, and I don't think that I have to write Miko's actions off as nothing. They aren't nothing, they're an open act of evil that caused her to fall. Just out of curiosity, where have you seen people that try to explain it away? Most of the people I see just think that Roy's actions were wrong. (I do agree with that.)

I do think that this is a very nice and reasonable thread.

War
2007-02-01, 06:44 PM
Well, arguing can be fun. As can be playing devil's advocate. It's not so good to get wrapped up in it to the point of losing all perspective. And the more people you have around, the more likely there is to be someone who's gonna mess that up.

Personally, I've seen very little of people trying to completely write off certain characters' actions in a way that really smacks of taking it personally. I've seen far more of people accusing each other of that, though. I'm sure it happens, but not so much as some people seem to genuinely think -- and it's really the exact same misconception from that end.

krossbow
2007-02-01, 07:39 PM
Eh, I don't think that what miko did was good or right. What I DO object to is that, simply because miko killed Shojo, everyone has assumed that Roy's getting a free pass on the crimes he just basically confessed to, and his self-agrandizing dialouge gets on my nerves.


Truthfully, were that any other character than roy beating the crap out of her, even BELKAR, I wouldn't care so much-- because those characters, even if they disliked them, wouldn't take it as an opportunity to posture and try to act awsome (I.E., his speech boils down to basically "Hah bitch! Should of had sex with me, cause now your fallen, AND you won't get any!"

Lord Zentei
2007-02-01, 07:55 PM
Eh, I don't think that what miko did was good or right. What I DO object to is that, simply because miko killed Shojo, everyone has assumed that Roy's getting a free pass on the crimes he just basically confessed to, and his self-agrandizing dialouge gets on my nerves.

I don't really get the impression anyone is saying such. He does get a free pass on attempting to take her down, though.

And yes, he is self-aggrandizing. Roy is Roy, not mister perfect, after all. :smallwink:

(There is a reason Thog calls him "talky man", after all).

Greebo
2007-02-01, 07:58 PM
What crimes?

Setra
2007-02-01, 08:03 PM
Nice speech, I hope some people are pacified by it.

Lord Zentei
2007-02-01, 08:04 PM
This thread is reasonable, good, and humble.

For all these reasons, it will go unread by those who need to.

*Sigh.*

Who?

On the OP, I disagree with the perception that there is polarization. As far as I can tell, there are plenty of Roy fans who thought he acted less than optimally, and Miko fans who thought that she deserved to fall and be whacked around by Roy.


I'm a Roy supporter, but only because I agree with his actions, not his character... he is a wee bit jerkish and willing to use the OotS, in my opinion, but redeems himself from time to time on a regular basis.

Indeed, yes - such as when he threw out the written contracts.


Miko doesn't know what redemption is. (At the moment, literally.)

Too early to tell, since she hasn't been aware that she needed any up until this point.

Kraitos
2007-02-01, 08:46 PM
(I.E., his speech boils down to basically "Hah bitch! Should of had sex with me, cause now your fallen, AND you won't get any!"

Just thought I'd drop in a contribute mi dos centavos from the peanut gallery.

Neh. I just read it as taking the Freudian view to things and suggesting that her actions derived from a lack of sexual activity. Didn't strike me as suggesting a particular partner.

Almost every one of the triggers which has set her off in the last several strips have been ones which you have to be ignoring other possibilities for it to make sense.

"You can't even tell me you'd be this up tight if you were getting laid regularly." to paraphrase.

The entire dialogue sounded more like Roy rhetorically exploring his own initial interest in Miko. And being very confused as to what characteristic he had initially been attracted to.

I don't think theres been a character yet which hasn't rubbed me wrong at one point or another. On the other hand, very nearly all of them have maintained internal consistency (from their own perspective, the course of action they took made sense and/or agreed with their morality.)

Oh. As a side note:
Some of the alignment related quibbles strike me as fundamentally related to how D&D uses its alignment system. If you categorize -any- morality, or point of view on a nice neat little scale, then of course you'll have a lot of "edge conditions" - or conditions not neatly correlating to the definitions you've just set forth.
Not that it usually gets in the way for the typical D&D game.
Just that it doesn't lend itself too well for abstracted philosophical discussions on motivations and behavior in fictional characters on an internet webcomic. :smallbiggrin:


Back to Lurk mode...

Elliot Kane
2007-02-01, 10:45 PM
As for me, I'll demonstrate. I think that many of Miko's actions are absolutely debatable, but there are some cases in which she was flat-out wrong. I think she's a fascinating character, I think she's a better person than circumstances and perspective have made her appear, I think her actions make 100% complete sense from her point of view, I think she's fairly deluded, and I think she made an enormous mistake. I want to see her development treated with respect and fairness, even though I expect it won't go anywhere pleasant.

Agreed. I find Miko to be one of the most fascinating characters in the strip because of her complexity. She's trying desperately to do the right thing, but her incredibly limited understanding of people always made that hard for her, and her frustration at having to deal with others when she has no understanding of them has led to her fall.

In Miko-world, there is only 'Good' and 'Evil', and both exist only in the definitions she has been taught. This leads to her making a lot of mistakes and a lot of very bad conclusions.


Roy certainly has good reasons for attacking her now, but it's still not a great course of action. I think he's acting on impulse and emotion, I think things would have gone a lot better for everyone if he'd been calmer, and I think he's made a mistake that is overall less serious than Miko's, but strikingly similar in nature. And I think it'll be great if the strip treats it that way, cause I think he was getting kinda boring, and I think exploring that angle would make me like him more, not less.

Totall agree. Roy is a warrior, so reacts to a threat by fighting it, which is how he's been trained.


Belkar and Thog are just evil, guys, seriously. I think there are a few cases which could be used as reasonable arguments to the contrary, except that those cases are in the vast minority and anyway there's official decrees saying otherwise, and I think they're perfectly fun as they are.

Both great characters, both obviously CE. I'm new to the forum so I missed the debates, but is there really any doubt of their alignments at all? "I do what I want right now and if it hurts others so what!" = CE.


These are the characters you fell in love with. They haven't changed, they've always had these flaws and the capacity to make these mistakes. And to those of you who hate them, sorry, they still make sense, and no, one character being wrong doesn't make everyone else right. Hell, if Miko didn't have believable reasons for doing everything she's done, it wouldn't make her more of a bad person, just more badly written.

Completely agree. I think OOTS is as popular as it is because of the great characterisation throughout. It certainly is with me :smallsmile:


A real tragedy is not something bad people do to good. It's when good people, for good reasons, mess up and make things very, very bad.

Agreed.

Great post, btw :smallsmile: