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Spore
2014-03-04, 12:18 AM
Hi guys,

do you think halflings can be threatening? Obviously your players are - more or less - human and are by far taller than halflings. And one of my groups actually has a halfling demonologist as one of the villains.

For my own group I want an agile (check) and charismatic (check) leader for the royal navy in an setting close to Imperial Spain and Portugal. He should be an swashbuckling charismatic kind of fighter. I want him to be a corrupt bastard trying to gain enough wealth to overthrow the government. But instead of making the king peaceful, good and kind and him evil corrupt and vile, I want this part of the conflict to be more of an chaos vs. law kind of thing. But back to the matter at hand:

Do you find an halfling navy general believable or ridiculous? Which character trademarks would you give him to be more believable.

On his plot importance: He should be an lowly raised everybody's man and have the favor of the crowd being disgruntled by the current government and king. Physical and mental freedom is his highest goal and he will pay any price to make this come true for everybody in the kingdom. His rise will increase the influence of the gunpowder guild which supports him secretly and could maybe provoke wars with the nation. The king on the other side is an old man set in his ways. Commoners will be treated as such, laws will be important to him and nothing will really change when he stays in power. The poor will continue to suffer, the pirates and bandits will be dealt with and so on.

So I think as an potential adversary OR quest giver hw will be okay. But could this be an evil guy? And only one of three guys knows Belkar so the comparisons won't take over here.

Twixman
2014-03-04, 12:28 AM
Very interesting, I believe this could be done. But for believability of the lowly man raised leader, you may need examples of this, so maybe have him do speeches and such where the players can actually get a feel of who he is and how he got to where he is.
Sorry for not being much help, but I do like the idea and wish you well, I am all for unconventional villains.

Felhammer
2014-03-04, 12:28 AM
Make sure he is cunning and devious yet also likable and sympathetic. Allow him to get to know the PCs. Have them almost trust him.

Then something goes wrong.

Then the Halfling slits the throat of one of his own guards in front of the PCs.

Then everyone will take him seriously.

Twixman
2014-03-04, 12:34 AM
That works very well. Haha

Slipperychicken
2014-03-04, 01:35 AM
Just make him look like this:

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/evilbilbo.jpg

Hytheter
2014-03-04, 01:50 AM
Why shouldn't a halfling be a BBEG? What are you, racist?

Shiki-pon
2014-03-04, 06:19 AM
Why shouldn't a halfling be a BBEG? What are you, racist?

Technically that would be speciesist.

Back on topic, I think it might work. There might be problems with taking him seriously, as he is a halfling... Then again, you could actually have him play that angle, seemingly being just a wannabe villain with some popularity among the people. After this has been established, and the PCs don't take him seriously, then you spring out all of his plans, backers, and all the other things that make him actually threatening.
Just a thought.

BWR
2014-03-04, 06:39 AM
Nothing wrong with halfling navies or scary halflings. The halflings of Mystara's Five Shires have a navy and there are many notorious halfling pirate ships who are the terror of the waters. Roving gangs of halfling juvenlie delinquents rob and pillage and plunder neighboring lands.
The halflings of Athas were the original race, look down (ha) on the other races as being inferior mutations, and eat them.

I think the thing to do is overcome the idea that something small isn't very dangerous. Don't play halflings as feeling size-conscious of themselves. Play them as people who are stuck in a world where everyone is bigger, stronger, stupider and looks down on them (ha). You aren't undersized, everything else is oversized. If you want a halfling BBEG, make a BBEG. Size matters not.

The only size issues I can see are if the rest of the country and are generally mediumn sized creatures and tend to think of halflings as children or incompetant or whatever.

Hytheter
2014-03-04, 06:44 AM
Technically that would be speciesist.

The game calls them races...

Gavran
2014-03-04, 06:55 AM
The game calls them races...

I was going to post this. :P

It makes some absurd implications about the setting's biology but it's quite clear that it's a race you choose.

HammeredWharf
2014-03-04, 07:22 AM
I had a halfling BBEG. The players took him quite seriously, because he was a level 20 wizard. At that point, his race was of little importance. If your players find your villain's race funny, he's not intimidating enough.

mig el pig
2014-03-04, 08:08 AM
Do you find an halfling navy general believable or ridiculous? Which character trademarks would you give him to be more believable.

So I think as an potential adversary OR quest giver hw will be okay. But could this be an evil guy? And only one of three guys knows Belkar so the comparisons won't take over here.

A halfling in the navy isn't so ludicrous, space is probably the most valuable commodity on a ship so a small posture is quite beneficial. You've also got lot's of possibilites on how he managed to achieve a high rank within the navy.

pos1: He was a first mate on ship A that boarded ship B. He got transferred to Ship B with a skeleton crew (not actual skeletons) to bring it home for salvaging. On the way home he manages to board an even bigger ship with a valuable cargo (gold, silver) and with his share of the loot he became a partner in a shipping comany or a privateer. Due to his succes he was enlisted by the king/emperor to reform the navy but his policy of focusing on small/swift ships to attack enemy trading vessels made him unpopular with the 'old school' admirals who prefer big ship-of-the-line.

pos2: Their was a mutiny on the ship he was on but he managed to liberate the captain and the officers. He was promoted and throughout the years he climbed the ranks of hierarchy due to his expertise and capabilities. Although some suspect favoritsm from his former captain who is now the head of the admirality.

pos3: He was a childslave on a pirate vessel (think northafrican berber galley) that got boarded by the 'Royal Navy'. He got adopted by the captain, first lieutenant, first mate, navigator or ship's cook who always took him along on sea voyages. He has spent nearly his entire life on the sea. (he might even get 'landsick' when he leaves his ship and the shore). He saw alot of action and became something of a sailor legend due to his heroism, skill and is generally considerd as a lucky charm by the crew. He can predict the weather, knows which islands have good natural harbors and drinkable water, he can navigate through reefs at nights and can recognize most ships. In the end his fame became known to the king who invited him to the court as a curiosium. At court a admiral of noble descent tried to humiliate him with a bet (or something) but in the end it was the admiral who was shamed.*
Anyway, he left the court as an officer in the 'Royal Navy'.

* their is a story about Robert Surcouf, a french freebooter/privateer who captured alot of English ships during the Napoleonic Era. He was on a dinner party with several English Lords (mostly captains and admirals) where on of them insulted Surcouf by saying Surcouf only fought for money while they fought for honor. Surcouf replied it was only natural that a man would fight for something he doesn't posses.

You can change or combine these backgrounds to give some 'flesh' to your Halfling. To make him into a BBEG you'll need something more, although trying to overthrow the King or the king's government (maybe he only wants to remove certain advisors and not the King himself) is a good start.

A lot will depend on his personlity.

As a captain he will be harsh, the tasks on a ship are of paramount importance and a slacking succesful captain is unheard of. For outsiders he might seem extreme but to his crew he's a hero, even after keelhauling or flogging on of their own.

He might use tactics that are considered 'unethical' by the traditional ways of warfare or plain risky.
- changing flags and the paintjob on his ship
- dumping his larger cannons to gain some speed in a pursuit/escape
- sail through a reef at night during the low tide
- Bluff his way through a blockade by pretending to be a trader

He might be unpopular with certain colonial governors, administrators or other privateers.
- He dumped a chest of gold into the sea instead of surrendering it to local authorities who wanted to take away his and his crews share.
- His reckless attacks destabilizes certain unofficial treaties/conventions in the colonies.
- He once "stole" a competitors crew by changing the boarding list of their ship with his own.
- he refused to relinquish his ship to a governor who wanted to use it as protection.

Ways to make him "evil" in the setting
- His word is law on his ships, all captains are harsh but he's infamous for certain creative punishments
- He's a slave trader although it's considerd illegal
- He's against slave trading even attack a friendly ship that was carrying slaves
- He has no respect for class. He might let off a enemy who's a poor sob while he would go the extra mile to humiliatie, punish a noblemen/upper class.
- He worhips and old god of the sea

Imho their are lot's of possibilites for a legendary halfling buccanneer who's loved and hated at the same time.

Ravens_cry
2014-03-04, 08:49 AM
I imagine a halfling BBEG like a godfather from the Mafia. Sure, physically, he (or she!) may be physically weak, but they are cunning, very cunning, cunning enough to survive making it to the top of the heap. and the power they wields makes far bigger, stronger beings tremble. Surround him with big, beefy people who nonetheless are incredibly deferential to the boss, walking on eggshells around someone they could snap like a twig but who could get them, and their families, killed at word.

Hyena
2014-03-04, 08:55 AM
No. I would never take a halfling seriously. He might recite entire "Godfather" script to me, but he's still Bilbo Baggins with hairy feet.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-04, 09:37 AM
No. I would never take a halfling seriously. He might recite entire "Godfather" script to me, but he's still Bilbo Baggins with hairy feet.

That's precisely what he wants you to think. If enemies underestimate him, then he can take them by surprise and win.

paddyfool
2014-03-04, 09:46 AM
A halfling pirate with a cutlass? Silly.

A halfling pirate with a pistol? Better.

A halfling pirate with grenades? Better still.

A halfling pirate with cannons and mortars? Better still.

A halfling pirate who's managed to repeatedly ambush you, and who has a highly effective ship and crew plus maybe a pet wizard and/or sea monster in the mix? Very credible threat.

----

Also, don't make them fear him for who he is physically. Make them fear and hate him for the **** he pulls on them.

"Now we've got you!" say the heroes as they face their diminutive foe across a burning deck.

"Have you?" (Cape of the Mountebank -> Dimension door out of there)

(Ship blows up)

----

Or make him a sea druid/MoMF, and do make them fear him physically.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-04, 10:04 AM
You could also run him as a sorcerer. With enough layers of nested illusions, disguises, and tricks (plus the everything-proof shield Wings of Cover spell) you can make him basically impossible to find. While the party sidts through illusions, the BBEG can monologue, call forth spells and allies, and escape without taking a single hit point of damage.

Also, it should be obvious that a halfling BBEG is going to be dangerous for his network of allies and cunning tricks. If the PCs face him in a straight-up fight, he's basically lost anyway.

GungHo
2014-03-04, 12:06 PM
As a caster, arcane or divine, it doesn't really matter that he's small. He's just as dangerous as any other character, whether you're just going by numbers or otherwise. He can make himself, his pets, his summoned monsters, or his fireballs as big as they need to be.

If he's a barbarian or something... okay, you can laugh when they're low level, but after a certain point, that size adjustment down for damage dice and strength penalty doesn't mean a whole lot. Feats, specialization, and magic items can make that difference basically not mean squat.

imaloony
2014-03-04, 12:26 PM
do you think halflings can be threatening?

Let me answer your question with another question: Is Tyrion Lannister threatening?

paddyfool
2014-03-04, 12:37 PM
BTW, this comic (http://mightygodking.com/al-rashad/comic/book-1-page-1/) presents an excellent example of a threatening pirate in the first chapter or two, without giving them any (overt) magical abilities or similar. And if you made them a halfling, it wouldn't matter a tiny bit to the threat they pose and why they pose it.

ScubaGoomba
2014-03-04, 01:00 PM
Make sure he is cunning and devious yet also likable and sympathetic. Allow him to get to know the PCs. Have them almost trust him.

Then something goes wrong.

Then the Halfling slits the throat of one of his own guards in front of the PCs.

Then everyone will take him seriously.

I know this was an older post, but I can't not think of Gus Fring with this. Was that intentional?

Jay R
2014-03-04, 01:33 PM
The top big bad evil guys threaten you with their minions, not their own physical prowess. I really don't care how tall he is, or how hairy his toes are, if he's sending armies, squads of spellcasters, and hordes of undead after me.

But technically, a halfling would be a LBEG.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-04, 02:14 PM
Really, what you need is to make the BBEG a Halfling spellcaster who just broke out of prison and can cast Contact Other Plane.


He's a small medium at large.

You know you want to use this in a game. Bonus points if his full epithet is "Tiny, the small medium at large".

Forrestfire
2014-03-04, 02:30 PM
Let me answer your question with another question: Is Tyrion Lannister threatening?

I was going to post something similar. A halfling BBEG may be small, but if played right, his reach can be very long (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOQsYk8cbnE).

Hytheter
2014-03-04, 11:15 PM
No. I would never take a halfling seriously. He might recite entire "Godfather" script to me, but he's still Bilbo Baggins with hairy feet.

OP: If, despite your best efforts, some of the players don't see the Halfling as a credible threat like the poster I've quoted, have the Halfling kill that player. That should get them in the mindset you're looking for.

GPuzzle
2014-03-04, 11:37 PM
A good Halfling BBEG is the scariest. Sure, every half-fiend can be a BBEG. It takes a really scary and really badass 4-foot tall pirate that you can't see and is now cutting your feet into oblivion. Seriously, a Halfling BBEG RP'ed well would make me be thankful I brought my brown pants that day faster than a Tarrasque would.

NotAnAardvark
2014-03-04, 11:53 PM
I played an MMO once that had a rather frightening (insert Halfling standin race name) in it. admittedly he was a wizard but proceeded to earn his cred by doing standard wizard stuff: Gets thrown in the most secure prison on the planet, walks out when he gets bored. Glares at people so hard they fall over. etc.

Cliché tactics, but they honestly do a good job if presented in the right way.


On the other hand, playing into the players' expectations can be effective too. Make him not particularly threatening, make him rather amiable for a villain. Then you bait and switch when they get comfortable with him and suddenly have him do something really crazy.

Spore
2014-03-05, 12:26 AM
I have to leave for work soon but I just wanted to pitch in that his minions may as well be magically talented but I want him to be rather mundane. His power should stem from leadership and diplomacy not summoned forces.

Berenger
2014-03-05, 03:50 AM
Make sure he is cunning and devious yet also likable and sympathetic. Allow him to get to know the PCs. Have them almost trust him.

Then something goes wrong.

Then the Halfling slits the throat of one of his own guards in front of the PCs.

Then everyone will take him seriously.



Yeah, but make sure he has a legitimate reason to gut the guard - mutiny, for example. Killing guards just because they bring bad news or were unable to carry out their orders despite honest effort doesn't state "Im a serious badass in command!" but "Im a sad idiot that will be marooned really soon."

Stoneback
2014-03-05, 06:51 AM
Napoleon Bonaparte was unavailable for comment.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-05, 11:13 AM
Napoleon Bonaparte was unavailable for comment.

The dude was 5'6''. French inches were larger than british ones, so british people looked at his measurements and thought he was 5'2''. After that, it just became a meme of sorts.

Jay R
2014-03-05, 11:58 AM
Out of idle curiosity, am I the only one who remembers who the psychopathic murderer in the Order of the Stick is?

GPuzzle
2014-03-05, 12:37 PM
Out of idle curiosity, am I the only one who remembers who the psychopathic murderer in the Order of the Stick is?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicComedicSociopath

TvTropes black hole link.

The quote at the top of the page IS a quote from Belkar.

The Oni
2014-03-05, 05:10 PM
The dude was 5'6''. French inches were larger than british ones, so british people looked at his measurements and thought he was 5'2''. After that, it just became a meme of sorts.

This, plus he was short relative to his peers, because military men obviously tended to be larger, and it didn't help that he was frequently flanked by his very large bodyguards. AND, this was seized on by the British as propaganda - the same as when the Japanese were portrayed as very silly-looking in WWII recruitment posters. All of this culminated to produce the three-foot-nothing Napoleon we know and love today.

More to the point, a villainous Tyrion Lannister would be a very good model for this sort of villain. He's used to the jibes, counters them with a dark sense of humor, and exploits his apparent disadvantage to open his enemies' weak points FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE. And play up his strategic acumen so that he always has the high ground, the better to look down upon his larger foes.

paddyfool
2014-03-05, 05:57 PM
Also, if you want him to be physically imposing, just give him a great big bodyguard. MasterBlaster style.

Rover
2014-03-05, 09:10 PM
He could throw his own people at you...

Intimidating:smalleek:

Stoneback
2014-03-05, 09:37 PM
Yep. I'm referencing the meme.

Pokonic
2014-03-05, 10:14 PM
At one point, you need to have a traumatized survivor of the halfling's attack say the following:

"And he just kept stabbing them, again and again... He's a halfling, he's supposed to be jolly... Why wasn't he jolly? WHY WASN'T HE JOLLY!"

Spore
2014-03-05, 11:56 PM
At one point, you need to have a traumatized survivor of the halfling's attack say the following:

"And he just kept stabbing them, again and again... He's a halfling, he's supposed to be jolly... Why wasn't he jolly? WHY WASN'T HE JOLLY!"

"I knew as a sailor he wouldn't be as cute as land hobbits but DAMN did I ever think wrong!" :smalleek:


Also, if you want him to be physically imposing, just give him a great big bodyguard. MasterBlaster style.

Actually that's a pretty good idea. A big lumbering intimidating bodyguard will be put at his side. For ingame reasons that not every stupid kid tries to kick him only to feel a dagger entering his knees (the fact that he CAN defend himself doesn't mean that he enjoys to do so on a daily basis) and for flavor reasons because a small antagonist is more intimidating when he can command a jacked up fighter around.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-06, 09:55 PM
More to the point, a villainous Tyrion Lannister would be a very good model for this sort of villain. He's used to the jibes, counters them with a dark sense of humor, and exploits his apparent disadvantage to open his enemies' weak points FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE. And play up his strategic acumen so that he always has the high ground, the better to look down upon his larger foes.

Honestly, you could probably convince people he was a villain just by sticking to the books' description of (i.e. actually looking like a demon monkey).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/6/60/Pulled_from_the_Rhoyne.jpg/350px-Pulled_from_the_Rhoyne.jpg

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/thumb/8/82/Roman_V._Papsuev_Double_Bluff.jpg/350px-Roman_V._Papsuev_Double_Bluff.jpg

hellmonkeyd2
2014-03-10, 10:07 AM
On the subject of making halflings intimidating, I was almost laughed out of the table for proposing a Halfling Barbarian, so I went about writing up a backstory for it. This was for a 5e game.

My name is Hemel Havik, Barbarian of the Havik clan. When I was a boy, my father told me of the halfling races who gave birth to our forefathers. "Our ancestors were a kind people with strong hands, strong backs, and no taste for bloodshed, but when the Orc warparties began their marches, our forefathers were cut and bled until only the most willful survived. Your Grandfather's Grandfather was a child in those times, and the land was not so black, and the earth unsalted by the tears and blood of war."
"Were we as rotting wood and brittle leaves? How could our tribe have ever been so weak?"
"Our people were not prepared child, they had lived in a time of plenty and peace. We are told that none of our kind had ever heard the thunder of war. Try to understand that they did not know."
I viewed our ancestors with disdain that day, and it was many years before my father's lesson truely struck home. I was reaching my twenty fifth season, and the thunder of war came to us as it never had before. Tides of Orc flesh wrapped in skins and paint, gripping blade and bone poured into our small clearing in the swamps, and the smell of death breached our walls to prepare us for what would be. I still remember the thrum of the Orc war chant roaring to the tempo of the ram at our gates. It was that day that my grandfather taught me my greatest lesson.
He stood among the other men of the tribe, his body painted black and white in the colors of our clan, his beard tightly braided silver beneathe the furious face above, making use of every etched wrinkle and scar that had for so long gone uncreased, but now in the grips of fury and in defense of his homeland I could finally see ages of conflict from whence they came. My father moved to join him on the field of battle and fear was wrapped about him like slaver's shackels. I had never seen him afraid.
The skies were overcast and the ground wet with the cold mud, I was huddled inside our Hule, our den, looking out from its earthen walls across the camp to the gate as it splintered open and death poured through. The next few moments were terrible chaos as the Orcs clashed with our warriors, blood and screams filled the air as they so often now fill my dreams, I saw my father die in that first collision, falling to an orc berserker, after taking the lives of barely two of their kin. I felt more sorrow than shame as he fell into the mud, my grandfather saw him fall too, but sorrow was nowhere near him. The ancestral Stoutblades in his hands lashed out in a flurry of blood and rage, Orc after orc falling as they cleaved blackened flesh and shattered countless bones. He channeled the fury into a terrifying dance, the wrath of our ancestors and the pulse of vengeance guiding him, he moved through the Orc horde, dropping body after body, leaping high into the air and plummiting to the ground blades first into their warriors. Cut by cut, arrow by arrow, my grandfather was struck again and again, his bloodlust sustaining him, until he finally found the Orc Warchief.
The warchief stood tall, towering over my grandfather, a mass of muscle, trophies, and warpaint branishing a Fang of Orcus Greatblade. My grandfather leapt, lunging at the titanic foe, slashing and striking in a dervish of shining metal. The warchief raised his Greatblade high and brought it down hard as my grandfather guided it away with one blade plunging the second into the Orcs stomach, black blood pouring onto the ground. The warchief staggered back and raised his blade high, and build great momentum in it as he stepped forward slinging it around.
My grandfather's body crumpled sideways as the blow split his spine.
Our camp was overrun and our people taken in shackels, but when the warchief found me, he saw my grandfather upon my face, and took me aside.
"Your elder was great man, his blades struck with might of land. I honor him."
He thrust my family's ancestral blades into my hands and as the warband left I was alone. I buried my father and grandfather, and the other warriors of our tribe. I wept tears of many kinds in step with the changing faces of my woes. I replayed their deaths in my mind again and again, and as I did, I heard my fathers story of our ancestor's fall and knew we were just as them. I no longer felt disdain for them, I felt pity for them and my father, they were unprepared. I would not be like them, I would not be weak, or complacent, I would not be filled with fear when my death came, I would be like my grandfather, I would be ready, and I would die with Honor.

Metahuman1
2014-03-10, 12:06 PM
Make him swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade with Throw anything, and give him a small unit of halflings with spiked chains and swordsage levels of there own.

Then he can really throw his own people at you.

And make his body guard a Half Minotaur Half Oger Ice Dweller Rhino Tauric Water Goliath Barbarian with a couple of levels of Drunken Master and Barbarian before going Warhulk, and uses a Riverine Ships mast for Combat.

If that doesn't make players start wetting themselves nothing short of Tier 1 shenaniganry will.

Calen
2014-03-12, 01:54 PM
There was campaign thread that I read here a while ago.(Sorry I forget what it was or I would post the link) The main villain was a halfling bard. At least in the reading he came across as both charming and scary at the same time.

Jakodee
2014-03-12, 11:14 PM
Instead of being laughed at for being short have him laugh and degrade humans for being big, slow, stupid, mudwallowing, inbred, nearly blind and deaf, idiots. And they smell.

Jay R
2014-03-13, 10:50 AM
Having thought about it, I don't think I'd make the munchkin BBEG a halfling. I'd make him a true Oz Munchkin.

[I might even introduce Winkies, Quadlings, or Gillikins first.]

veti
2014-03-13, 05:51 PM
A halfling in the navy isn't so ludicrous, space is probably the most valuable commodity on a ship so a small posture is quite beneficial.

Small size, a bonus to agility, decent speed - combine that with a head for heights (climbing rigging), and you've got a huge asset on board any sailing ship. The only drawback is the STR penalty, but let's assume she's employed in tying knots rather than pulling ropes.

I imagine a charismatic halfling inspiring the crew with energy and dynamism. And give her Assassin levels.

Off topic: a campaign I once played in had a faction, which automatically sided with any halfling in any situation, called the Society of Hobbits In Trouble, also known by its acronym. They were fierce.

Another_Poet
2014-03-14, 09:22 PM
Well, Napoleon did okay...

:smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, it sounds like a great villain. I had a halfling villain as the leader of a band of thieves, once. (Not like a "thieves guild in the city" type, more of a "roving group of bandits terrifying the countryside" type.) It was a solo campaign, and the PC learned to hate him not only because he was dangerous, but because he was cunning, suave and smooth-talking. More than once he tricked her out of a victory or got himself spared from the gallows by one dirty trick or another.

Being a villain isn't (always) about being big and strong. Smart, charismatic villains in small packages can be the scariest of all. I think your admiral sounds terrific.

edit: I have been ninja'd, and ninja-debunked on the Napoleon comment.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-03-15, 11:40 AM
A halfling Big Bad? It sounds like you're running a bit short on ideas there...

:smallbiggrin:

I'll be here all night. :smalltongue: