Ammunation of plenty.

[Kafros]

This is a house rule I added to my latest campaign to accomodate one of the players desire to use firearms instead of crossbows or bows. I post it here cause I could not find any proper firearms advises anywhere. Feel free to discuss it and rebalance it if you think I was overly too strict

The problem with firearms is that the loading times makes them pretty useless after the midlevels and their high cost makes them unattainable on low levels (where they are still underpowered) so to fix that I added this enchant.

Ammunation of plenty:
This enchant can be given to the loading barel of a weapon without increasing the weapons total enchant rating. The effect is to automatically replicate the last ammunition (and associated chemical components like gunpowder) loaded to the weapons barel. This works for nonamagical ammunition at cost 2250, or magical ammunition with a total enchant +1 for 4500, +2 for 12000, +3 for 30000 , +4 for 69.000, and +5 for 150.000. The ammunition is recreated immidietly after the shot is fired allowing the user to use his full number of attacks with the weapon.

Behind the scenes:
I used the quiver of plenty base enchant for this with a 50% increased cost as described in the wondrous items section of the DMG for moving an enchant from an optimized location to a not optimised location. In terms of game balance I think its underpowered. The user still has to pay for his ammunation at +50% cost than the corresponding crossbow/bow class who could just use the original quiver and only adds extra damage depending on the setting the gm uses. Eg in some settings firearms are weaker than crossbows, in others firearms add +1-2~ average damage compared to crossbow so in higher levels that is not cost effective since with the same gold you could add a number of d6 in your damage instead, in lower levels the high cost also takes its toll, since the resourses at that point are limited. This enchant can also be applied to the barel of a repeating crossbow but is practically a waste of gold. To fix that maybe remove the 50% cost increase from the enchant relocation and add +2000gp on the cost for an autoreaload feat enchant equilevant.

In short I dont see any harm in allowing the sniper feats to work as normal with firearms, but that is always on the gm's discretion. Maybe instead he would allow a completely new build for the firearms depending on the other classes and mechanics available to the campaign.

Notice this is intended to just add flavour rather than another exploit (I am sure we got a lot of those already) by making a firearms build valid rather than overpowered.

[nobodez]

Well, considering how rapid loading firearms is in D&D (and PF), they might as well be cartridge based (whether brass or merely paper is of no consequence).

As to how I'd rule it:

Assume nearly any enhancement that can be applied to a crossbow can be also applied to a firearm. This is a big assumption, but since the DMG states "Firearms should be treated like other ranged projectile weapons.", I'm fine with it. Since reloading is a standard action, I'd allow the Rapid Reload feat to lower that to a move action (or perhaps a swift, since unlike the heavy crossbow you're moving from a Standard action rather than a Full-Round action). Add in the Quick Loading enhancement from the MIC, and you've got that down to a Free Action (as well as loading in 100 rounds of ammunition, and in the case of a firearm, powder as well). If you're willing to import stuff from Pathfinder, you've now got a container of ammunition, which makes it a relevant target for the Abundant Ammunition spell from Ultimate Combat. Since it's a minute per level spell, to make that a permanent effect is a 4,000 gp magic item (SL x CL x 2,000 gp X 2 for the base duration). There, for the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus and 4,000 gp (as well as a feat for Rapid Reload), you've got a firearm that never runs out of ammo and reloads as a move action.

[Kafros]

That is a nice suggestion. Since in higher level the cost disparity far outweights the benefit from not having to pick an extra feat. On the other hand the +1 cost on the weapons enchant is also painfull since it also increases the cost and limits the maximum enchants it can take before epic levels, and again it has to be taken 1nce per weapon. So lets see is it more cost effective for what I suggested?

The player wishes to dual wield pistols, he can buy 2 masterwork pistols for a 1000 gp each. further more to add the enchant I suggested he needs to have the base weapon as a +1 cost 2000 gp, the enchant I suggested works on the weapons barel, considering the barel as a different enchanting spot than the weapon so even with the +50% increase it would cost the player 5250 gp /pistol that can repeat ammunation at the cost of 1 piece of ammo. eg 2 silver bullets cost 5 gp. Total 10500 gp

What you suggest will make the weapon a +2 weapon that would mean each weapon costs 9000 gp 1000 for each weapon and 8000 for the enchantment. further more the player also has to spend a feat, and buy lets say 200 silver bullets with a cost 1160 gp. A total of 19160 gp

Hm I already mentioned that I felt my option was underpowered because of the rediculous cost ... but now the player already has no money to do what he wants cause by cost he already exceeds his starting gold. But maybe it gets better on higher levels so

on level 20 the player in my case he would have to pay 350000gp for endless +5 ammunation for a +10 enchantment weapon (total eg, fire,ice,acid, sonic, lightening, holy, lawfull +1) total of 750000gp +2000 for the weapons

in your case the player will have to pay 200000 for the weapons enchant and he wont be able to enchant it for more than a total of +9 since that enchant takes a +1 slot the ammunation will have to be calulated seperately but straight 200 +5 ammunations would cost 200000 as such the total cost for the player would be 800000gp...+2000 for the weapons.

In my case if I remove the cost for the +50% movement of the enchant to the barel I can also reduse the cost by 75000 gp and still I feel it would be too much of a cost. But in your suggestion the total cost is 200000 gp cause I dont think he can use the quiver of plenty on each weapons extradimentional storage therefore he will still have to pay for the ammo.

As I mentioned I dont try to gimp the player he is already playing a tier 3 class and I want him to be relevant not make him feel useless by making him sub par to a tier 6.

Of course I might have messed my calculations somewhere. Or misunderstood your suggestion.

[Kafros]

Omg ... I better not do math today.
So the cost for level 20 for my suggestion should be 700000 with my suggestion, -100000 if I dont increase the enchant's cost. total 600000
your suggestion would cost 400000 total for the weapons and 200000 for the ammo. Wonder if I left my brain somewhere.
So I guess your suggestion has a merrit in that is cost effective on higher levels. Probably better on epic levels if the campaign goes that far.
hm I guess I ll let the player choose what he wants.

[Erik Vale]

Quick thing to make it cheaper.
There is a +1 Enchantment that reduces the reload time a step.
Alchemical Cartridge reduces Reload times a step, and Advanced Firearms have a reload time 1 step lower than normal.

This combined means, for a +1 Enchantment bonus and a 2000gp enchantment [abundant ammunition item], you can have unlimited ammo for any material while reloading as a free action. Let the gun make it magical.

Or, scrap the enchantment and grab rapid reload, which I'm sure is a tax for many gun related feats, and skip out on the enchantment, or use a 1 hand firearm and you can use normal ammunition to reload for free actions, and then pay for ammo [or abundant ammo] as normal.

[Slipperychicken]

[Okay, I already tried to post this two times now, so let's try it again]

You don't need homebrew to make guns awesome, and I'll show you why:


This is a house rule I added to my latest campaign to accomodate one of the players desire to use firearms instead of crossbows or bows. I post it here cause I could not find any proper firearms advises anywhere.


Guns look like garbage at first, but they're awesome if you build it right. Gunslinger1/Trench Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter) +X gets you dex to damage at level 4, plus a bunch of bonus feats which you need. Take the pistolero archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/pistolero) for free Rapid Reload (pistols) if you want to specialize in pistols.

Take the following feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim. Also Rapid Reload (your favorite type of firearm) if you didn't get it as a bonus feat. Being a human helps to pick up those feats, but isn't mandatory since we're taking fighter levels. After you take those, take whatever you want, like Clustered Shots, Snap Shot, or the weapon focus/specialization tree.

Ability scores are as follows: Dex maxed > Con at least 12 ~= Wisdom >> Everything else.

Every round, rapid shot with deadly aim. You're dealing archer-level damage while swinging against touch AC, so you should basically always hit. You'll deal plenty of damage. You can also full attack normally in the next part of my post:

When you can afford it, upgrade your gun to a +1 Seeking (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/seeking) (firearm). Maybe put Reliable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/reliable) on it later if you hate misfires.



The problem with firearms is that the loading times makes them pretty useless


Rapid Reload (Pistol) + Alchemical Cartridge = reload pistols as a free action = full attack with pistols.

Musket Master Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master)3 + Rapid Reload (Muskets) [this is a bonus feat] + Alchemical Catridge = reload musket as a free action = full attack with muskets.

Advanced Firearm + Rapid Reload = free action reload = Full Attacks.

Beneficial Bandolier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bandolier-beneficial) (1000gp) = Reload as a swift action once per round (it's something).




after the midlevels and their high cost makes them unattainable on low levels (where they are still underpowered) so to fix that I added this enchant.


Gunslingers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) get a free gun at level 1.

The Gunsmithing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunsmithing) feat which gunslingers get for free at 1st level lets them craft ammunition and firearms for 10% the listed cost.