[3.5] My simple monk fix

[Keld Denar]

I really like Tashalatora. I think that psionics, especially PsyWar psionics most appropriately captures the concept of "ki", or inner potential. So I came up with a VERY simple monk fix and I was curious what anyone else thought of it.

Take monk, strip out all of the SU abilities and slow fall, and replace with full 20 levels of PsyWar manifesting, including powers known and PP/day. Basically, everything is gone but the AC bonus, the bonus feats, and the UAS damage.

Done.

I'm planning on having a friend playtest this at about level 7 over the next couple months in my campaign, so I can give updates on how it feels.

Want Slowfall? Catfall is there, or Psionic Levitate/Fly. Want Abundant Step? Psionic Dim Door is your friend. Healing? Body Adjustment. Most monk powers are replicable with PsyWar powers, plus it has a built in equivalency chart for alternate "ability" selection in that two monks from different monasteries might pick different powers known.

Thoughts?

[TheOOB]

Thats a)not simple, but rather an entire class rebuild, and b) just a psychic warrior who can unarmed strike.

You are not fixing the monk because it's not a monk anymore.

[The Trickster]

Thats a)not simple, but rather an entire class rebuild, and b) just a psychic warrior who can unarmed strike.

You are not fixing the monk because it's not a monk anymore.

Depends on what your definition of "Monk" is. If you think a monk is a character who punches and kicks his enemies with great force and speed, can move across the battlefield in the blink of an eye, and someone who can manipulate the life energy known as "ki", then I would say this fix keeps the "monk" a monk.

I would also say that this is an easy fix, because it doesn't really require much fixing by the DM. It is basically a one-step process.

[Cwymbran-San]

Also, the only thing missing is the fluff. And you could easily state, that the PsyWar advances his/her special powers through personal enlightenment like the monk does.
This would also fix the issue, that a primary melee character is unable to hit the proverbial barn door, given the PysWars full BAB.

[Waddacku]

Also, the only thing missing is the fluff. And you could easily state, that the PsyWar advances his/her special powers through personal enlightenment like the monk does.
This would also fix the issue, that a primary melee character is unable to hit the proverbial barn door, given the PysWars full BAB.

PsyWar is 3/4 BAB. Using the Monk chassis is actually flat-out an upgrade, with more skill points and three good saves instead of just one.

[Gwendol]

I would keep the speed bonus (of the monk).

[The Trickster]

I would keep the speed bonus (of the monk).

With this fix, it wouldn't go away. IIRC, fast movement is an (Ex) ability, and this fix removes the (Su).

[Eldariel]

Just to be sure, the Ki Strike abilities are included, right? They're quite useful for the Unarmed Strikes as it can be a bit of a pain to get Adamantine UA Strikes otherwise (though yes, there are powers to get around these issues).

Ultimately this is pretty much just a Tashalatora Monk in one class; I quite approve. Default Monk pretty much shouldn't exist anyways; Monk is magical and has a power source (Ki) so he should get some actual magic instead of once/day spell-likes. Default Monk is kinda like MM Illithid: It's not a real Illithid unless it's Psionic.

[Zubrowka74]

I like this. I'm usually not a fan of psionics in "medieval" fantasy, I don't think it fits the flavor. But refluffed as Ki power? Yeah, this works for me.

[Zombulian]

To emulate specialist monks you could use maybe Ardent progression? I like this idea, Wis synergy is nice.

[Eldan]

I like this. I'm usually not a fan of psionics in "medieval" fantasy, I don't think it fits the flavor. But refluffed as Ki power? Yeah, this works for me.

Why wouldn't it? Psionic-like magic is usually everywhere in fiction, but Hermetic, nevermind proper Vancian magic is rarely anywhere.

That said, I've done exactly what the OP proposes. Or rather, something similar. I've gone the other way, basically, but with the same result.

Monk (Psychic Warrior Variant)

Lose: Weapon Proficiency, Armour Proficiency, Bonus feats
Gain: Unarmed Strike Progression, Flurry of Blows, Armour Bonus


Works pretty well. You might even put some of the bonus feats back in, as you suggested.

[Fax Celestis]

Keld, aren't you just stretching Psychic Fist to 20 levels?

[The Trickster]

Just to be sure, the Ki Strike abilities are included, right? They're quite useful for the Unarmed Strikes as it can be a bit of a pain to get Adamantine UA Strikes otherwise (though yes, there are powers to get around these issues).

Ultimately this is pretty much just a Tashalatora Monk in one class; I quite approve. Default Monk pretty much shouldn't exist anyways; Monk is magical and has a power source (Ki) so he should get some actual magic instead of once/day spell-likes. Default Monk is kinda like MM Illithid: It's not a real Illithid unless it's Psionic.

Ki Strikes are (Su) too, so by strict interpretation of the OP, no. To be honesty thougt, I would add them in as well. No need to make the punches worse then what they already are.


To emulate specialist monks you could use maybe Ardent progression? I like this idea, Wis synergy is nice.

I have had a friend do this and he loved it. Decently powerful, without going overboard, while still keeping a monk-like character design. As soon as I learn about how MoI works, I'm going to try it as well.

[Zubrowka74]

Why wouldn't it? Psionic-like magic is usually everywhere in fiction, but Hermetic, nevermind proper Vancian magic is rarely anywhere.

It's a matter of personnal taste, I guess? Or we do not read the same books.

[Snowbluff]

Keld, aren't you just stretching Psychic Fist to 20 levels?

No, he's just giving PsyWar monk abilities and better saves/skills without the feat tax. I approve. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd look at it more as an Unarmed PsyWar, akin to the Unarmed Swordsage.

On principle, I agree that a subsystem helps monks. But, I think mechanically that monk revolves around the normal melee schtick of being ready to go whenever (ignoring that the rather moronic core monk is full of 1/day or *gasp* 1/week abilities). Not that PsyWar is gonna run out of oomph on the average day, but there is definitely an archetypical player that doesn't want to be keeping track of expendable resources beyond hp and gp. I have several friends that like that type of character and seriously skew in the direction of record-lite classes (warlock, fighter, etc).

[Person_Man]

There are a bunch of synergies to your proposed fix; Monk Unarmed Strike damage + Expansion, Wis to AC + Inertial Armor, Fast Movement + Hustle + Flurry, and it can very easily be made Wisdom SAD. It'd be a fun class - basically just a more powerful version of Monk/Psychic Warrior/Tashalatora.

But what you propose would be strictly better then the Psychic Warrior, particularly at low levels. It's not broken by any means. But it would be a problem if another player wanted to use the Psychic Warrior at the same table, or even some of the weaker Tier 3 classes.


Might I offer a counter proposal - Monk, remove all Su abilities except for Ki Strike. Add Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) power progression using the Psychic Warrior's power list.

That would give you 15 powers, 100 power points, and max 5th level powers. It'd be slower then the Psychic Warrior's 20 powers, 127 power points, and max 6th level powers. But given how much (Ex) stuff the Monk gets, I think it'd be fair trade off.

[Eldan]

It's a matter of personnal taste, I guess? Or we do not read the same books.

Really? How many books do you know where mages prepare their magic ahead of time, compared to just casting what they need at the moment? How often did Gandalf throw bat poo at goblins while gesturing, as opposed to just willing things to happen?

[Eldan]

How is it stronger than a PsyWar?

Let's say Level 2. The Monk would have:

+3 will save (and I will never understand why PsyWars have a low will save)
Flurry of Blows (which isn't very good)
1d6 unarmed strike
Evasion
Wisdom to AC
Either Improved Grapple or stunning Fist, either combat reflexes or detect arrows. None of these are great feats, but occasionally useful.

The PsyWar has:
Weapon proficiency. Instead of 1d6 unarmed, he can deal 1d8 one-handed or 2d6 two handed.
Actual armour
Two free feats, including psionic feats.


Looks about fair to me, really. Maybe even skewed a bit to the Psywar's side.

[Phelix-Mu]

Really? How many books do you know where mages prepare their magic ahead of time, compared to just casting what they need at the moment? How often did Gandalf throw bat poo at goblins while gesturing, as opposed to just willing things to happen?

To be fair, many novels regularly omit details of life that are not supporting the dramatic course of the story. Maybe Gandalf did have a book under that robe of his (or hidden in his mind...Eidetic Gandalf now on sale!) and spent time every morning looking at it (or during the night while he was "sleeping"...yeah, like Gandalf sleeps). It's possible that, like Sam making oatmeal over the morning campfire, it was not among the things Tolkien decided to include.

Novels follow only the rules necessary to guide the reader through the plot, and the writer can pretty much redesign the rules when necessary (within limits). A game with multiple protagonists with differing goals, and lacking the kind of plot horizon present in much writing needs a more detailed level of mechanic. Even if the DM skips details and scenes where boring stuff happens, the next day those details might be important. The rules try to cover these bases (with a cursory effort at being--and failing to be--balanced).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Really? How many books do you know where mages prepare their magic ahead of time, compared to just casting what they need at the moment? How often did Gandalf throw bat poo at goblins while gesturing, as opposed to just willing things to happen?

Ha, that's a fantastic mental image.

I've always thought of Gandalf as a Bard who hates that he isn't a real wizard and gets mad when people question his magical ability... But a Psionic class works too.

[Eldan]

Ha, that's a fantastic mental image.

I've always thought of Gandalf as a Bard who hates that he isn't a real wizard and gets mad when people question his magical ability... But a Psionic class works too.

Personally, I'd stat him as a shapeshifted celestial. Planetar, maybe. Cleric or Druid casting seems to fit him best anyway.

[Keld Denar]

Might I offer a counter proposal - Monk, remove all Su abilities except for Ki Strike. Add Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) power progression using the Psychic Warrior's power list.

That would give you 15 powers, 100 power points, and max 5th level powers. It'd be slower then the Psychic Warrior's 20 powers, 127 power points, and max 6th level powers. But given how much (Ex) stuff the Monk gets, I think it'd be fair trade off.

This is not a bad proposal to bring it down a little in power. Then again, nearly everyone laments over the lack of PP/day on most PsyWars, which is a big reason why all of the little tricks like Manifester Arrows and PP recharge tricks exist.

[Eldariel]

This is not a bad proposal to bring it down a little in power. Then again, nearly everyone laments over the lack of PP/day on most PsyWars, which is a big reason why all of the little tricks like Manifester Arrows and PP recharge tricks exist.

I definitely find Psy War needs more PP if anything; Powers Known/Per Day/Level is not that big of a deal tho. PP is basically "do I get to play or not"-kinda deal tho so it needs to be a somewhat plentiful supply.

[Person_Man]

This is not a bad proposal to bring it down a little in power. Then again, nearly everyone laments over the lack of PP/day on most PsyWars, which is a big reason why all of the little tricks like Manifester Arrows and PP recharge tricks exist.

I mostly agree.

Having DM'd in a game with a strait Psychic Warrior without any power point tricks, I would say that they do sorely lack power points at low levels, but that it's not that big of a deal once you hit 7th-ish level or higher (assuming that you optimize your Wisdom). You just have to be very judicious about how you spend them. Lean heavily on powers with long durations and/or low power point costs, and avoid overusing powers that need to be augmented in order to be useful.

If I were to DM a game with another Psychic Warrior, I would institute a house rule: When at 0 power points, you may spend 10 minutes concentrating in order to regain 1 power point. You may do this a number of times per day equal to your primary psionic attribute bonus. This would allow them to always "do something" psionic at least once per combat.

[Phelix-Mu]

This is not a bad proposal to bring it down a little in power. Then again, nearly everyone laments over the lack of PP/day on most PsyWars, which is a big reason why all of the little tricks like Manifester Arrows and PP recharge tricks exist.

Also, many lower op campaigns better tolerate restricted amounts of PP, allowing the restriction to be a concern for players and their characters, without having running out be some kind of automatic death sentence. Rather, more of an adventure hook or challenge of its own.

Obviously, at higher op levels, a character deprived of one of its major resources will perform at significantly lower level, and enough rocket tag will make such under-performance lethal in all but the lowest doses.

[Phelix-Mu]

I mostly agree.

Having DM'd in a game with a strait Psychic Warrior without any power point tricks, I would say that they do sorely lack power points at low levels, but that it's not that big of a deal once you hit 7th-ish level or higher (assuming that you optimize your Wisdom). You just have to be very judicious about how you spend them. Lean heavily on powers with long durations and/or low power point costs, and avoid overusing powers that need to be augmented in order to be useful.

If I were to DM a game with another Psychic Warrior, I would institute a house rule: When at 0 power points, you may spend 10 minutes concentrating in order to regain 1 power point. You may do this a number of times per day equal to your primary psionic attribute bonus. This would allow them to always "do something" psionic at least once per combat.

And that is an excellent house rule to fix the aforementioned problem. I may have to adopt that myself.

[illyahr]

I like your fix, OP. I like psionics, but was never able to fit them into a campaign. Nothing to do with flavor, I just never had anywhere I could put a psionic society without disrupting the rest of my campaign.

I seriously want to give this a try.

[Zubrowka74]

Really? How many books do you know where mages prepare their magic ahead of time, compared to just casting what they need at the moment? How often did Gandalf throw bat poo at goblins while gesturing, as opposed to just willing things to happen?

Oh, I don't know, a couple? Aside from the obvious Vancian novels and numerous works based on D&D universes, Terry Pratchet has used them. Are you familiar with Discworld? The Chronicle of Amber also comes to mind. And this is strictly vancian... I guess "A Song of Ice and Fire" is not as known as Tolkien's work, as well as many other that depicts magic used via rituals, witches spells. But I suppose H.P. Lovecraft and J.K. Rowling don't count either, eh?

Anyhow, I was only stating a preference. I do not wish to argue over straw men so I'll leave it here.