Best idea ever- Miko the lousy Blackguard

[Charles Phipps]

I had a great idea.

Miko becomes a Blackguard only to constantly act in a good manner in the pursuit of greater evil.

"I shall have these peasants clothed, fed, and treated kindly to force them to better appreciate our evil ways."

"I shall spare this mortals life because it will confuse his sense of good and evil."

And otherwise until she completely screws up by sparing Roy's life or something else and is stripped of her blackguard status.

[Demented]

Oh, lousy? Maybe... Hehehehehe...

You lose Paladin abilities when you fall or you stop being Lawful Good. But, if you manage to become Lawful Good again, you can always atone and get your abilities back. Therefore, a Paladin that becomes Evil in order to be a Blackguard is screwed for those good ol' abilities.

But, here comes the rub...
Blackguards don't suffer this restriction.

Become a blackguard.
Then go all the way back to Lawful Good and atone!
Congrats, you are now a completely and utterly absurd Paladin/Blackguard multiclass with all your abilities.
(W-T-F Mate?)

Admittedly, you can now not gain levels in either of those two classes (multiclass paladins can't gain more Pally levels, and you aren't Evil, so you can't gain more Blackguard levels), but the results are hilarious, especially if you have a goodly number of levels from both.

The head of anyone with a Detect Alignment ability is going to explode when you come near. (Aura of Good/Evil)
Dual personality?

Speaking of which, you're in trouble. You can Detect and Smite both. (Detect/Smite Good/Evil)
So you can kill your Roys AND your Xykons.

Your saving throws make Jesus cry. (Divine Grace, Dark Blessing)
That's double your CHA mod to saves.

You can turn, command, and rebuke Undead. It makes THEM cry.
As if having Lay on Hands didn't already. (The Blackguard version of Lay on Hands is pathetic!)

To top it all off, you have two (maybe three) creatures to serve you... a celestial mount, a fiendish servant, and an undead companion. Of course, if you can't get the latter two to redeem, you'll have to smite the shenanigans out of them. Ah well. Bonus XP! ...Right?

[TreesOfDeath]

Funny, but not happening

[Fronko]

He ... I just got an idea for my next character build ... lol!

[Iranon]

I've actually done that... long story. I've only played 2 paladins ever, and both ended up borderline insane.

Maybe that's why I like Miko...

[Varmus]

Hello everybody, this is my first post!

Hiliarous build, but not happening... probably. Even when becoming LG after advancing in Blackguard, you can't have your paladin abilities back, until use of a particular spell... forgot name... Penence? Yeah, something like that. Anyway, you'll probably need to lose allbenefits from Blackguard class in order to gain Paladin ones. But if not... :D Looking forward to use that build!

Oh, and one thing: sorry for my misspelling, mistakes and other things that may appear in my posts. Still learning English, y'know.

[Charles Phipps]

I just think it's a great twist that the problem with Miko isn't she's naturally violent and intolerant but that she's so utterly devoted to her point of view that ANYTHING she does will be utterly boned.

I have the funny idea she was a rotten monk too.

[Demented]

Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) isn't all that hard to do.

Wait a minute... It can change alignments....
*pokes Belkar*

[Balok]

I think the spell Varmus refers to is called atone. I believe, too, that the gods are free to impose other requirements; i.e. a quest. Gamemasters differ, but I would rule that advancing in any class that requires an evil alignment would make impossible any return to the Paladin class. There is, after all, a difference between making a mistake, and being deliberately evil over a long period of time.

[Varmus]

Yeah, Atonement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) That's the spell I was meaning... ah, well. That's how translation works... "Atonement" was translated into polish "pokuta", and thus is rather translated into "penance" than "atonement". Sorry, my bad.

[fwiffo]

...she's so utterly devoted to her point of view that ANYTHING she does will be utterly boned.

Now, now, this is not the time to discuss this aspect of Miko.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Yeah, Atonement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) That's the spell I was meaning... ah, well. That's how translation works... "Atonement" was translated into polish "pokuta", and thus is rather translated into "penance" than "atonement". Sorry, my bad.
Thats what happens when you translate one word into another language and then back again.

[elliott20]

Now, now, this is not the time to discuss this aspect of Miko.
sigh... Type O Treasures

[Eela6]

Doesn't work.

According to the FAQ, if you fail to meet the entrance requirements of any prestige class, feat, or other ability, you lose all abilities gained from it unless otherwise stated (see Lawful Bard).

A LG Atoned Paladin11/Blackguard 2 has the abilities of a level 11 Paladin. That's it. So no.

On the other hand, a silly build like Paladin of Tyranny5/Sorcerer1/Monk1/Arcane Duelist 2/Blackguard2 will give you completely cheesy bonuses to saves and AC if you take the proper feats, so it's hardly a pipe dream.

[Yogi]

That would be interesting. Miko becomes Blackguard, takes over Azure city, but keeps it the way it is, acting as a fair and just ruler. Even though she's evil, she knows the gate needs to be safe or else she (and the world) will be destroyed. She doesn't want the peasantry to revolt, so she keeps them as happy as reasonably possible. Plus, she'd have no problems doing all sorts of nasty stuff to secure her position and expand her power base.

[dragongirl13]

I think that's a good idea, but since when has Miko shown a concern for the dignity of sentient beings?

[Yogi]

I think that's a good idea, but since when has Miko shown a concern for the dignity of sentient beings?She'll really just pretend to like them, while manipulating them from behind the scenes. Sort of what she was accusing Shojo of doing.

[Jewel Thief]

Maybe Miko will become a blackguard and become "evil" solely for the purpose of gaining paladin-like powers again, so she can destroy the Order of the Stick and Xykon.

[The Extinguisher]

I prefer Fallen Blackguards.

Which actually happened to me. Or one of my characters I created. Anyway, it's quite funny.

[Charles Phipps]

I was more thinking it'd be hilarious if Miko became closer to the ideal of "good" while she was evil than she ever was whiel Lawful Good. I.e. evil allows her to see the dignity of sentient beings.

Does it make sense? Maybe not but then again the idea is that she's going to "Rise" is the punchline.

[NecroPaladin]

I've actually done that... long story. I've only played 2 paladins ever, and both ended up borderline insane.

Maybe that's why I like Miko...

The only paladin I ever played was the origin of my forum name-lo and behold, an undead paladin. He provided some very interesting roleplaying challenges, like trying to obscure his nature from a necromancer when he's defeated him and is making him swear to never create undead, for the sake that chances are it would weaken the argument if the necro knew..

[Don Julio Anejo]

Hm.. Demented - that would be awesom! Double +charisma to saves (from paladin and blackguard).. coupled with Evasion from her monk levels... I'd like to see a mage who could take her out.

On topic now - I think that's similar to what she's been up to now. She has good intentions, she tries to do good deeds (successful 50% of the time), but she's not farsighted enough to realize that what she does will end up being evil.

[Tokiko Mima]

Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) isn't all that hard to do.

Wait a minute... It can change alignments....
*pokes Belkar*

Well, it depends on how lenient your DM is.


This spell removes the burden of evil acts or misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

i.e. if you just went over to Blackguard and are trying to get your Paladin powers back, are you truly repentent when you seek to return your Paladin powers for the sake of doubling up? Sounds to me like you never really cared about your paladin code and powers except what they could do for you, as demonstrated by your attaining Blackguard class for it's power.

If I was DM, I think it would be fair to rule that a Paladin turned into a Blackguard will never be repentent enough to make Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) work, no matter how hard they try or what they do to earn/prove it. It's a closed chapter in their life.

Now, if you wanted to make this combo really work, take 8 levels of Lawful Evil Monk, then become a Blackguard for 6-7 levels, then have a epiphany and turn Lawful good and become a Paladin for your remaining levels. Then all your powers will operate and you never needed to use an Atonement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)

[AmoDman]

Doesn't work.

According to the FAQ, if you fail to meet the entrance requirements of any prestige class, feat, or other ability, you lose all abilities gained from it unless otherwise stated (see Lawful Bard).

A LG Atoned Paladin11/Blackguard 2 has the abilities of a level 11 Paladin. That's it. So no.

On the other hand, a silly build like Paladin of Tyranny5/Sorcerer1/Monk1/Arcane Duelist 2/Blackguard2 will give you completely cheesy bonuses to saves and AC if you take the proper feats, so it's hardly a pipe dream.

Point me to the actual rule quoted in the FAQ. I've seen this discussed elsewhere, but no one's ever pointed to an actual rule. I don't believe in the FAQ. I've seen it wrong too many times. It's not RAW.

[AmoDman]

Well, it depends on how lenient your DM is.



i.e. if you just went over to Blackguard and are trying to get your Paladin powers back, are you truly repentent when you seek to return your Paladin powers for the sake of doubling up? Sounds to me like you never really cared about your paladin code and powers except what they could do for you, as demonstrated by your attaining Blackguard class for it's power.

If I was DM, I think it would be fair to rule that a Paladin turned into a Blackguard will never be repentent enough to make Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) work, no matter how hard they try or what they do to earn/prove it. It's a closed chapter in their life.

Now, if you wanted to make this combo really work, take 8 levels of Lawful Evil Monk, then become a Blackguard for 6-7 levels, then have a epiphany and turn Lawful good and become a Paladin for your remaining levels. Then all your powers will operate and you never needed to use an Atonement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)

Having Blackguard abilites is just that, having Blackguard abilities. If you repent, who says your abilties repent with you? I don't see a Blackguard to Paladin conversion chart, though I imagine one could easily be house ruled in. You can be a Paladin/Blackguard while not good, I don't see not while good, as long as Blackguard doesn't have the same restriction to lose abilites upon turning Good.

And you don't believe in redemption? I think that's a little ridiculous. Maybe it's just the RL religion in me, or the Angel being my favorite show ever, but I kind of always imagine that no matter how great the sin, painful, tenacious redemption is still possible even to the most lost of souls.

[Charles Phipps]

Actually, odd fact, that Blackguards can switch over their levels to Paladin if they repent.

But Paladins can't normally atone.

So Miko would have to become a Blackguard in order to get her paladin abilities back.

[Konrad]

I had a great idea.

Miko becomes a Blackguard only to constantly act in a good manner in the pursuit of greater evil.

"I shall have these peasants clothed, fed, and treated kindly to force them to better appreciate our evil ways."

"I shall spare this mortals life because it will confuse his sense of good and evil."

And otherwise until she completely screws up by sparing Roy's life or something else and is stripped of her blackguard status.

Now, NOW thats an idea :smallbiggrin: That would be totally awesome!

[Millennium]

Actually, odd fact, that Blackguards can switch over their levels to Paladin if they repent.

But Paladins can't normally atone.

So Miko would have to become a Blackguard in order to get her paladin abilities back.
Um... what edition is this? I've never seen either of these assertions in 3e.

[Charles Phipps]

Well that's how it works in Star Wars.

[Demented]

If I was DM, I think it would be fair to rule that a Paladin turned into a Blackguard will never be repentent enough to make Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) work, no matter how hard they try or what they do to earn/prove it. It's a closed chapter in their life.

I would expect no less from a logical DM that a Paladin could not atone with Blackguard levels.

It's mainly just the illogical nature of the idea, and that the rules allow it, that amuses me. The atonement part in particular, since it's not just that the ex-Paladin WAS a Blackguard, but that he still has those tainted, evil abilities following him around. The fiendish servant alone would make him fall again the moment he atones, unless he redeems or kills it.

[Erk]

If I were GMing it, I would base the atonement on how good of a blackguard the character was. If Miko were to become a blackguard and be a really crappy one, as Charles suggests, then crawl her way back up to good and try to atone, as GM I might grant a tough and appropriate quest (probably based largely on righting the wrongs she did to pull herself down to blackguard level, but with a bit more even than that) and then allow atonement to simply convert the levels gained as blackguard into Paladin levels, to prevent utter absurdity. I.e. a level 2 monk 11 paladin 3 blackguard would become a level 2 monk 14 paladin, probably with some XP penalty. Given that Blackguard already stacks significantly with paladin I don't see that being imbalanced... less imbalanced than allowing her to be 2m/11p/3b and then start gaining paladin levels again. A paladin with smite good is just.... incredibly dumb.

Of course, as GM I would also limit her use of blackguard powers if she made it to Lawful Neutral, and deny them altogether once she got back to Lawful Good. Until her Atonement was done she would be 2monk/11 fallen paladin/3 "risen" blackguard. Not the best class combo ;)

[silvermesh]

Point me to the actual rule quoted in the FAQ. I've seen this discussed elsewhere, but no one's ever pointed to an actual rule. I don't believe in the FAQ. I've seen it wrong too many times. It's not RAW.

actually, I think it's in the DMG. I dunno, as I don't have my books, but it's not in the FAQ, and it's not in the SRD. But I have read it before :smallbiggrin:

[Tokiko Mima]

Having Blackguard abilites is just that, having Blackguard abilities. If you repent, who says your abilties repent with you? I don't see a Blackguard to Paladin conversion chart, though I imagine one could easily be house ruled in. You can be a Paladin/Blackguard while good, I don't see not while good, as long as Blackguard doesn't have the same restriction to lose abilites upon turning Good.

Your abilities demonstrate your intentions. You could houserule in just about anything, but a possessing Blackguard abilities is a permanent reflection on how you not only fell, but actually did so willingly and with a desire to gain from that experience.


And you don't believe in redemption? I think that's a little ridiculous. Maybe it's just the RL religion in me, or the Angel being my favorite show ever, but I kind of always imagine that no matter how great the sin, painful, tenacious redemption is still possible even to the most lost of souls.

I'm not saying I don't think a sinner could be saved, so don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is if you approach the subject of repentance with the attitude of 'Awesome Dude! I can totally get double charisma on saves! Sweet!' that's not even close to repentance. You'll be lucky if the god you're asking for Atonement doesn't strike you down for sheer insolence.

I'm also saying that making a commitment to the Forces of Darkness might make one permanently ineligible to possess the Powers of the Light. It's not that you can't turn away and become a good person again, but Paladinhood is an elevated state, which requires one to act good at all times. Knowing that you have failed before, and very badly (taken an evil class) a truly repentent person would probably not even want his/her Paladin Powers back, as they would be a constant temptation to fall again.

This is all my opinion though. It's up to each individual GM to decide for themselves. I just dislike Paladinhood being cheapened this way.

[agentx42]

Well that's how it works in Star Wars.

Maybe the comic would be better if it were Order of the Force?

[Twilight Jack]

One thing to keep in mind here is that anyone can become a Blackguard by meeting the prerequisites, but ex-Paladin Blackguards get special abilities that far outstrip those of the regular PrC. They do this by trading in their Paladin levels. Hence, a Paladin-gone-Blackguard who then returns to Lawful Good and Atones will regain her Paladin abilities (if at all) at whatever level is left after having traded in for 10 levels in Blackguard. Furthermore, the character should then be severely penalized for any uses of Blackguard abilities.

More likely, I'd probably just allow an Ex-Paladin/Blackguard to trade those Blackguard levels back for Paladin (after a lengthy quest without the abilities of either class). To paraphrase Claudius from Hamlet, atonement doesn't mean much if you still hold on to the rewards of your sin.

[Krytha]

This smells like Garland...

[AmoDman]

Your abilities demonstrate your intentions. You could houserule in just about anything, but a possessing Blackguard abilities is a permanent reflection on how you not only fell, but actually did so willingly and with a desire to gain from that experience.

I don't agree with this. I don't think being a Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Cleric, or whatever necessarily dictates anything about a character's intentions. Their abilities are tied to arbitrary mechanical classes which are a means to an end. Classes do not define a character whatsoever unless they choose to let them do so. The only difference with Paladin is that there are rules (the exception, not the norm) on the character's actions to retain the class abilities.



I'm not saying I don't think a sinner could be saved, so don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is if you approach the subject of repentance with the attitude of 'Awesome Dude! I can totally get double charisma on saves! Sweet!' that's not even close to repentance. You'll be lucky if the god you're asking for Atonement doesn't strike you down for sheer insolence.

I'm also saying that making a commitment to the Forces of Darkness might make one permanently ineligible to possess the Powers of the Light. It's not that you can't turn away and become a good person again, but Paladinhood is an elevated state, which requires one to act good at all times. Knowing that you have failed before, and very badly (taken an evil class) a truly repentent person would probably not even want his/her Paladin Powers back, as they would be a constant temptation to fall again.

This is all my opinion though. It's up to each individual GM to decide for themselves. I just dislike Paladinhood being cheapened this way.

If a champion of good can become a champion of evil, I still say the opposite is possible, if not probable. This is fiction, after all. I don't think you can make a blanket statement or rule to say a player doing this...odd combination with their character isn't following the course out very strictly IC, whatever their motivation OOC. IC is what matters, and if they can pull off a character with enough motivation to fall from good into the depths of evil, and then perhaps even back again who wants to fight, fight, fight to atone for their horribly evil fallen past, I'd say go for it.

The only way Paladinhood (Which, I stress, is a direct result of the code flavored into the class and not the class's abilites) is being cheapened in the fake scenarios we are discussing is through the conclusion that a character is acting they way they are directly because of the player's motivations stats-wise. All players make decisions and optimizations stats-wise. It's the role-playing in these sorts of instances that matters. I never make assumptions about a character based purely on their character sheet, odd (different from the norm) as it may seem.

[The_Weirdo]

I had a great idea.

Miko becomes a Blackguard only to constantly act in a good manner in the pursuit of greater evil.

"I shall have these peasants clothed, fed, and treated kindly to force them to better appreciate our evil ways."

"I shall spare this mortals life because it will confuse his sense of good and evil."

And otherwise until she completely screws up by sparing Roy's life or something else and is stripped of her blackguard status.

Spanish Inquisition sketch? :p

I mean, she could make the peasants sit in comfy chairs too. :D

Nice idea though.

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

smells like Garland

I think I know what you mean. I really want that to happen.

Paladin: Does evil act(s): Becomes evil: Blackguard: Stumbles apon ludicrous speed power: Becomes hyper powerful monster god thing: Becomes me (but only in very rare situations).

[fruityjanitor]

I had a great idea.

Miko becomes a Blackguard only to constantly act in a good manner in the pursuit of greater evil.

"I shall have these peasants clothed, fed, and treated kindly to force them to better appreciate our evil ways."

"I shall spare this mortals life because it will confuse his sense of good and evil."

And otherwise until she completely screws up by sparing Roy's life or something else and is stripped of her blackguard status.

Sounds like Garland from 8 bit theater.