[PF] Monk of the Sacred Mountain

[Yanisa]

So I suddenly found myself in the player role and needed to build a character on the fly. I was replacing the paladin, who is now the DM. I often argued with him about the power (or lack of power) of monks yet somehow I ended up picked a monk.
Thematic it fitted replacing a paladin. It is a strong devoted class often associated with good alignments. It is more famous for high armor class and low damage, just like the paladin in the party was. (Well his smites could pack a nasty punch, but he was really famous for his "tankadin" attitude and 28 AC)
Besides for as bad the class it, I do like some of the ideas I build and I quickly got a good idea for what roleplay direction I wanted to take it and the group isn't that optimized. (We are talking Alchemist/Master Chymist, Barbarian and Druid with some bear themed archetype).

But to the point. I found the Snake Style Feats, Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-style-combat-style), Sidewind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-sidewind-combat) and Fang (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snake-fang-combat) and decided to roll with that. Snake Fang allows an attack of opportunity when an enemy misses and with the tank idea in mind I figured I would be missed a lot. At the moment I am an level eight monk with about 25 AC, which is decent but not always misses (although hitting myself is a challenge).

But I have the change to pick archetypes before the next session and I noticed the Monk of the Sacred Mountain, which adds some armor class (3), toughness, damage reduction, and immunity prone and forceful movement. While replacing mostly lesser abilities (slow fall.. high jump...) and evasion (ouch?). The armor stacks with all others sources (it's natural and shield ac), but forces the poor monk to even stand more on the same square during combat. There are options to increase it with a swift action, but due Snake Style I am already limited on those... and there is also a Vow of Silence at level 17 which is pretty much a tossed away ability. (I am not going to stop talking to my party members, even being shy already made the introduction hard.)

So all and all I am pretty meh about it. It seems to fit at the one side, but too limited at the other side.

So the question is: Is the Monk of the Sacred Mountain worth it for a tank focused monk?

P.S. I was also considering Qinggong Monk for at least Barkskin and probably some more abilities...

[Psyren]

Well, for starters you don't really "tank" in D&D/PF because you have no way to force enemies to attack you. But I'm going to assume that you are functionally tanking because your DM is choosing to target you for standing in front of everybody.

Even with that boon - I would personally say no, the small amount of DR and AC you get is not worth losing evasion for. Most of your defense in this build is coming from Snake Style, which can work on any archetype anyway. Bastion Stance is the only nice thing about this archetype really, the rest of it is a collection of very tiny bonuses. Worse still, the bonuses are typed, so they won't stack with your gear.

Personally I think a Dex-based Flowing Monk would make for a better defensive build. (Actually, come to think of it, those two can be combined.)

[Yanisa]

Well, for starters you don't really "tank" in D&D/PF because you have no way to force enemies to attack you. But I'm going to assume that you are functionally tanking because your DM is choosing to target you for standing in front of everybody.

Yeah its more the feeling of tanking then true mmo tanking (else our barbarian never would have died those three times), it's the idea of standing between your friends and the hordes of evil. That was what the paladin did, and hopefully the monk will have the same feeling. But with nimble dodging instead of a shield.

Sadly there is a cool monk archtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/nimble-guardian-monk-catfolk) that allows to protect friends... but is stupidly limited to a race (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) that makes pretty bad monks ability score wise.


Worse still, the bonuses are typed, so they won't stack with your gear.)

It is Natural Armor, which is a stacking bonus (sorta) and Shield Bonus, which monks normally don't have access too. So stacking doesn't seem an issue.


Personally I think a Dex-based Flowing Monk would make for a better defensive build. (Actually, come to think of it, those two can be combined.)

Sadly the Agile enchant is not within the sources we allow, so a full dex monk was never a true option for me. Still with 25 point buy (compared to 4d6 times 7 the group rolled, although they had insane luck(!)) is still nice enough to handle a the MAD stats and have a decent dex to boot.

[klarg1]

Yeah its more the feeling of tanking then true mmo tanking (else our barbarian never would have died those three times), it's the idea of standing between your friends and the hordes of evil. That was what the paladin did, and hopefully the monk will have the same feeling. But with nimble dodging instead of a shield.

Sadly there is a cool monk archtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/nimble-guardian-monk-catfolk) that allows to protect friends... but is stupidly limited to a race (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) that makes pretty bad monks ability score wise.



It is Natural Armor, which is a stacking bonus (sorta) and Shield Bonus, which monks normally don't have access too. So stacking doesn't seem an issue.



Sadly the Agile enchant is not within the sources we allow, so a full dex monk was never a true option for me. Still with 25 point buy (compared to 4d6 times 7 the group rolled, although they had insane luck(!)) is still nice enough to handle a the MAD stats and have a decent dex to boot.

Can you use Piranha strike? (From Sargava: The Lost Colony) It would help you make do with a lower strength, even in the absence of the agile enchantment. (To reallllly stretch things to ridiculousness, you could try to combine dervish dance and crusader's flurry, but I am assuming that you don't want to do that.)

One caveat to Flowing Monk + Snake Style is that both Snake Style and the Flowing Monk redirection depend on using immediate actions to do their thing, making it hard to combine them effectively.

[Yanisa]

Can you use Piranha strike? (From Sargava: The Lost Colony) It would help you make do with a lower strength, even in the absence of the agile enchantment. (To reallllly stretch things to ridiculousness, you could try to combine dervish dance and crusader's flurry, but I am assuming that you don't want to do that.)

Well the vague answer is that we are limited to books we have a real life physical copy off. This was an attempt to keep the laptops at the table at a minimum and keep it simple for the new guy.

In practice it means we have access to all advance and ultimate books + core rules + a couple of odd books I have here or there. (Mostly newer splash books, not really any adventure paths/modules, so no Sargava: The Lost Colony is not one of them.)

Well Piranha strike is off the table... with 25 point buy I can easily score 13 str/18dex/14con/14wis (instead of 17str/15dex/14con/14wis) to illustrate that the power attack's strength requirement is not my problem. Not sure if it is worth though, lowering my damage for more armor seems like a bad dnd tactic, but that more armor does mean more attacks of opportunities... Although attacks with less damage...

This might be worth considering... It's basically +2 dam per hit vs 2 AC (Against most hits), +2 initiative and 2 more attack of opportunities.
I also gain more attack (+1), at the cost of a feat (weapon finesse) and maybe I can beg for mythic weapon finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/weapon-finesse-mythic) because that's a book we do have, although mythic was off the table when I DMed because we were a low level low power party..
Not sure if the +3 damage per hit is worth a feat though, Weapon Specialization rarely was worth the feat to.


One caveat to Flowing Monk + Snake Style is that both Snake Style and the Flowing Monk redirection depend on using immediate actions to do their thing, making it hard to combine them effectively.

And two more points against Flowing Monk for me. First off it looses movement speed, and I am stuck to being a dwarf... introduced in game as a dwarf so sudden race changes are off the tables... and without he movement speed I be running at 20 feet.

Also I wanted to play the classic stupid Flurry of Blow Monk while avoiding maneuver builds. I know it is shooting myself in the foot and monks can do far better in both support and damage with maneuvers. I wanted to stick the more core of the monk, how sucky that may be.

And for the record, in my opinion, the monk core is Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, High AC and Unarmed damage. Most of the other Monk Abilities are either too situational, too mediocre, or deal with swift actions and that's why they feel less "core monk". Thank Paizo for Qinggong Monk so I can cherry pick my abilities a bit more.

Yeah I don't think there is any archtype fitting my fluff role play criteria while making the monk better. (I was also looking at Monk of the Four Winds , but that also felt mehish... not worse but not clearly not better either, it also did not fit my fluff ideas.)

[SamsDisciple]

I think you should really check out the Master of Many Styles since you can combine several of the very unique style feats and cherry pick the best ones out of the lists. This can also help with damage that doesn't rely on str and many other cool combos (run through the enemy and punching them all while simply moving through their ranks)

[Psyren]

^ Barring Flowing Monk, MotSM + MoMS + Qinggong is probably the way to go.

I still don't think what MotSM gives you is worth what you're giving up, but it's not the worst archetype out there either.

[klarg1]

I think you should really check out the Master of Many Styles since you can combine several of the very unique style feats and cherry pick the best ones out of the lists. This can also help with damage that doesn't rely on str and many other cool combos (run through the enemy and punching them all while simply moving through their ranks)

Unfortunately, Master of Many Styles gives up Flurry, which breaks the stated story/role criteria.

Personally, I think MoMS is better as a dip for another class, than as a pure monk build. Giving up Flurry, also means giving up your ability to full attack at full BAB. (I'm sure that more than one person disagrees with my assessment.)