PDA

View Full Version : Is it me, or is the Beguiler a tad overpowered?



Saph
2007-02-01, 06:59 AM
Apologies if this has been brought up before, but I'd like to hear current opinions on this.

I was looking through the Beguiler details. I love the idea and all the stuff you'd be able to do, and I think the class would be great fun to play next time I make up a character - but I'm worried that it's way overpowered. Comparing a beguiler to a sorcerer:


Areas in which the two classes are identical

- Same spellcasting (full arcane, one level behind wizard, level 9 spells).
- Same saves.
- Same base attack.

Areas in which the beguiler is better

- Better HD (d6 instead of d4)
- Much better skill points (6 instead of 2)
- Much better skill list (every skill you could ever want)
- Better casting stat (Int is better than Cha)
- Light armour spell use (more AC)
- More weapon proficiencies
- Full spontaneous casting! You can spontaneously cast and choose between EVERY spell on your spell list, whenever you want, and you automatically gain access to all your spells, like a cleric or druid!
- Various other minor goodies (trapfinding, silent and still spell, cloaked and surprise casting)

Areas in which the sorcerer is better

- Bigger spell list
- Familiar


Now the sorcerer already is a decent class (not as powerful as a wizard, but not many classes are) but it seems to me that a beguiler is so much stronger than a sorcerer it's not even funny. The only weakness a beguiler has is their limited spell list - but since they can cast so many spells, they effectively have MORE flexibility than a sorcerer. A 4th-level sorcerer knows 3 first-level spells and 1 second-level spell. A 4th-level beguiler knows 10+ first-level spells and 15+ second-level spells.

Admittedly a Beguiler's spell list is enchantment and illusion heavy, but there are so many good spells from those schools that you're never going to be short of things to cast. And they have several of the best conjuration and transmutation spells, like mage armour, haste, and slow. And if there's one spell they really want, they can get it anyway with their Advanced Learning feature. Meanwhile, the sorcerer can pick from a bigger spell list but can only learn a tiny handful of them.

Oh, and the sorcerer gets a familiar.

So, am I missing something here, or is the Beguiler a much better overall class than the sorcerer? Is the class allowed in your games? If it is, and it's not too overpowered, I'm definitely playing one next chance I get.

- Saph

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-01, 07:07 AM
The Beguiler is basically the same as a Warmage, just with a slightly different focus.

He's marginally good at his one thing and can't really branch out into anything else.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 07:18 AM
You're missing the fact that the spell list the sorcerer can select his spells from is enormous compared to the Beguiler's fixed list--which is largely lacking when it comes to non-mind-affecting spells. They have a bunch of gems--haste, slow, solid fog, freedom of movement--but their spell list is lacking in versatility for anything other than a mind affecting social/skillmonkey role. This is especially noticeable with their higher level spells. Advanced Learning only gets them a few spells, and they have to be enchantment/illusion (Shadow Evocation/Conjuration are good bets).
If you'd like, I can name you, oh, let's say, 20 first-class spells that the Beguiler will never know. Most of these will be fairly essential to being a quality arcanist.

The Beguiler should really be compared to a rogue, rather than a true arcanist; he fills the skillmonkey role. His spells in part help him do that, and in part are equivalent to the Rogue's sneak attack--a way to make the skillmonkey functional in combat. He's not a true caster, he's a skillmonkey with some extra tricks. At high levels, mind-affecting spells lose a lot of their utility (just like sneak attack does).

The Beguiler IS much better than a Warmage, though (at their respective roles).

The class is a lot of fun--they're rarely short of things to do, have a lot of skills, and fill an essential party role (skill/trapmonkey) while still leaving room to branch out. It's also worth taking all the way through to 20th (although a Mindbender dip is also good). Overall, it's very well designed.

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-02-01, 07:28 AM
I have played a beguiler, and I can say only one thing: Use Magic Device. Get it. It is very valuble, basically allowing you to use any scrolls that you can find. It expands the useage of the beguiler in a big way.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 07:30 AM
That's pretty much true for any class that has UMD as a class skill.

Saph
2007-02-01, 07:31 AM
If you'd like, I can name you, oh, let's say, 20 first-class spells that the Beguiler will never know. Most of these will be fairly essential to being a quality arcanist.

Actually, I would like. Which spells were you thinking of, especially at lower levels? Say you're at level 10 and in a combat - you've got haste, slow, solid fog, greater invisibility, glitterdust, displacement, freedom of movement . . . I would have thought one of those would deal with the problem, whatever it is.


The class is a lot of fun--they're rarely short of things to do, have a lot of skills, and fill an essential party role (skill/trapmonkey) while still leaving room to branch out.

They definitely look that way.

Well, if my DM agrees with you, I'll try and play one next chance I get.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 08:09 AM
Actually, I would like. Which spells were you thinking of, especially at lower levels? Say you're at level 10 and in a combat - you've got haste, slow, solid fog, greater invisibility, glitterdust, displacement, freedom of movement . . . I would have thought one of those would deal with the problem, whatever it is.
Core--
Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Identify, Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Shield
2: Resist Energy, Web, Shatter, Scorching Ray (which is fairly nice at low-to-mid levels, despite being a damage spell), Rope Trick, Alter Self
3: Magic Circle Against, Protection from Energy, Stinking Cloud, Wind Wall, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Greater Magic Weapon, Blink, Phantom Steed
4: Dimensional Anchor, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Scrying, Shadow Conjuration, Enervation, Polymorph
5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Prying Eyes, Wall of Force, Overland Flight, Telekinesis, Shadow Evocation
6: Acid Fog, Contingency, Disintegrate, Analyze Dweomer, Repulsion, Greater Heroism
7: Magnificent Mansion, Greater Teleport, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Forcecage, Limited Wish, Control Weather
8: Prismatic Wall, Maze, Irresistible Dance, Greater Prying Eyes, Greater Shadow Evocation, Horrid Wilting, PAO
9: Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Shades, Wail of the Banshee, Shapechange

Spell Compendium and others--
1: Benign Transposition, Serene Visage, Ray of Clumsiness, Spirit Worm, Nerveskitter
2: Baleful Transposition, Create Magic Tattoo, Ray of Stupidity, Bladeweave (for gish), Shadow Spray, Greater Slide, Whirling Blade, Wraithstrike
3: Anticipate Teleportation, Bands of Steel, Greater Mage Armor, Unluck, Sonorous Hum, Deeper Darkvision, Dragonskin, Steeldance
4: Celerity (PHB II), Ray Deflection, Greater Resistance, Orb of Force, Assay Spell Resistance, Burning Blood, Voice of the Dragon
5: Contingent Energy Resistance, Viscid Glob, Mass Fire Shield, Moonbow, Graymantle, Greater Blink, Xorn Movement
6: Greater Anticipate Teleportation, Superior Resistance, Freezing Fog, Illusory Pit, Fleshshiver, Bite of the Weretiger, Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability
7: Hiss of Sleep, Avasculate, Bite of the Werebear, Brilliant Aura
8: Wrathful Castigation, Avascular Mass, Veil of Undeath
9: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Eye of Power, Absorption, Reaving Dispel



Obviously, you don't need all or even half of these to be a great arcanist. However, several of each level are pretty vital, and these are all good to best-in-class spells of their level. (I could make you a smaller list of "never skip these spells" if you'd like.) Many of them are vital utility, party buffs, enemy debuffs, keeping-yourself-safe spells, and the like. The Beguiler can only get a small handful of them, via Advanced Learning.
At low to mid levels, yeah, the Beguiler can be very useful every fight. Probably not quite as useful as a wizard or sorcerer, but he can improvise better and do things more often. At higher levels, his ability to keep up, magic-wise, declines sharply.




They definitely look that way.

Well, if my DM agrees with you, I'll try and play one next chance I get.

- SaphIf you can, get an item of at-will Prestidigitation (it's a damn shame Beguilers don't get it as a cantrip; I have no clue why). Those are loads of fun, too.

Saph
2007-02-01, 10:08 AM
Obviously, you don't need all or even half of these to be a great arcanist. However, several of each level are pretty vital, and these are all good to best-in-class spells of their level. (I could make you a smaller list of "never skip these spells" if you'd like.)

Actually, that would be very useful, yeah. I'm currently playing both a wizard and a sorcerer in two different campaigns, so it's something I'm interested in.

If things change and I need a new character, I think I'll go for a Beguiler next.

- Saph

Person_Man
2007-02-01, 10:10 AM
One of my PC's is a Beguiler. And let me just say that she is far more useful and interesting then the standard Rogue, who often get themselves killed trying to Sneak Attack enemies.

I've had to throw in a greater variety of enemies. Especially enemies with tremorsense or blind sense/sight or Dispel Magic or whatnot, since the Beguiler can spontanously become Invisible. But really that's no different then having an intelligent Sorcerer in the party.

She rocks in certain Skill encounters, is a great toolbox, and is very helpful against humanoids with low Will Saves and/or Sense Motive Skill. But she sucks against Undead/Constructs/Plants and monsters with high Will Saves. So she falls back on wands for those instances. Since limited use items can be expensive, I think its a reasonable tradeoff.

I think the Beguiler, along with the Knight and Duskblade, should be the model of balance for other classes. Each fills one role well, without serious potential for abuse - mostly because the Beguiler and Duskblade have limited spell lists, and are therefore not subject to codex creep. I hope that when 4.0 eventually comes out, that the other classes are re-balanced to match them.

Lapak
2007-02-01, 10:31 AM
Hmm. Between the comments of Bears-With-Lasers (fills one role well, magical capacity lags at high levels) and the comments of Person Man (agrees with role ful-fillment, argues that limited spell list keeps the arcane power of these classes in check) I have to wonder:

Would it balance magic with melee as an option if one tossed out standard Wizards and Sorcerors entirely in favor of an array of superspecialist magic classes like this? If you want blasting magic, play a warmage; if you want illusions, play a Beguiler; but permitting no class that allows full-spectrum spellcasting.

Would it be worthwhile to fill out the set of these? I suppose Clerics could be reconstructed similarly, around Domains rather than spell schools. Has this already been done?

ken-do-nim
2007-02-01, 12:52 PM
Core--
Spell Compendium and others--
9: Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Eye of Power, Absorption, Reaving Dispel


Now that Complete Scoundrel gave us the skill trick "swift concentration", I'd add Summon Elemental Monolith to that list. I'd also add Summon (Iron) Golem (PHII) because it lasts so long and if you pick Iron you can keep healing it with fireballs (or scorching ray).

jayphonic
2007-02-01, 12:55 PM
One of the best things about beguilers is that they have a truly desirable capstone ability at level 20 (being able to circumvent SR). I would like to see WoTC do this with their other classes. Give people a reason to take a class to 20.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-01, 01:01 PM
I've been statting out a 6th level character who's a Rogue 5/Chameleon 1. I was thinking of trading out a few of his Rogue levels for Beguiler, but I've never played one before and am not sure how the class functions.... what do ya'll think?

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 01:02 PM
A beguiler gets real good if you are a gnome, and do shadowcraft mage. Effectively adding all the conjuration and evocation spells to your list spontaneously. You don't get the teleport spells though, but the short distance ones can be simulated via maneuvers which you get from the TOB items that grant maneuvers.

He isn't a full wizard, he is still a hybrid a jack of all trades, he is just now very good at conjuration, evocation, illusion, enchantment, while still being spontaneous and having 6 skill points per lvl.

Druid
2007-02-01, 01:12 PM
I played a beguiler once. At low levels they can be pretty good through spamming save or dies (sleep and color spray) but it's nothing a wizard or sorcerer couldn't do while having other viable options that the beguiler doesn't. I'd say that it's a very fun, well designed, and well balanced class.

Caelestion
2007-02-01, 01:16 PM
I was thinking of a Changeling Beguiler. It's one of the few splat core classes that I actually like (Warlock, Knight and Healer being the others).

MrNexx
2007-02-01, 01:39 PM
Actually, Beguiler is one that would seem to work really well in pretty much any specialist build for Ultimate Magus... just forbid Enchantment and Illusion.

Galathir
2007-02-01, 01:56 PM
I am currently playing a changeling Beguiler in a new campaign and I don't think it is overpowered at all. Sure, he is unbeatable at what he does well (enchantments and illusions) but he is very limited. My character is essentially incapable of dealing direct damage so I have to rely on other party members to knock down anything I can't enchant. While the advance learning skill does allow a Beguiler to learn a few spells not on his spell list, they must be of the enchantment or illusion school, so you are still limited to a few spells.

I think it is a very fun and balanced class with lots of flavor and role playing potential.


edit: spelling

Talya
2007-02-01, 01:59 PM
What book is this in? I'm wishing I had it when I started the campaign I'm in, but my DM doesn't allow non-core base classes anyway.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 02:02 PM
Beguiler is in PHB2
Shadowcraft Gnome is in Races of Stone
Warmage Minature Handbook and Complete Arcane

Talya
2007-02-01, 02:02 PM
I was just referring to beguiler. I have the others. :)

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 02:04 PM
I was just referring to beguiler. I have the others. :)
I can't read minds so I was being over helpful ;)

Meat Shield
2007-02-01, 02:04 PM
What book is this in? I'm wishing I had it when I started the campaign I'm in, but my DM doesn't allow non-core base classes anyway.Beguiler is in the PHBII

Logos7
2007-02-01, 02:06 PM
I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

Logos

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-02-01, 02:15 PM
All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells. That being a level 1 spell, I can see why beguilers are not very useful in combat. Here's a list of creatures beguilers are useless against in combat:

Undead
Constructs
Plants
Vermin
Swarms
Oozes
High CR Outsiders (most of them either have protective aura or at will protection from alignment SLAs)

That's almost half the creatures in the DMG, closer to three quarters in any monster campaign. And that's not including creatures with spellcasting abilities that can cast protection from alignment.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 02:33 PM
I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

Logos

Sorcerers are also able to choose there spells while remaining spontaneous. No other spontaneous class has polymorph for example, lets combine it with wraithstrike and go into a form with alot of natural attacks. Lets take power attack for good measure.

Your are right most of the time the beguiler is better, but I can think of some spell combos that a sorcerer can do but a beguiler can never do. The only other class that comes close to doing that is the wizard, but then he is no longer spontaneous.

Talya
2007-02-01, 02:35 PM
I think it's more that sorcerer's are screwed.

Begiler seems fine, but compare sorc to any prepared or spontaneous caster and he comes up short. Just the way it is.

Oh no Your Sorc Might be able to cast an extra high level spell of a certain level, hot damn, quick we better can all the class abilities we had planned and just leave it at that.

I think Sorcs need expanded HD and Skills ( So that they fit between wizard and bard as apposed to being a sucky wizard )

Logos

You just have to plan very carefully with a sorceror.

I'm playing a non-optimal build, but I'm still the most effective character in my party. The character is built for Roleplay/background concerns, as opposed to mechanics. She's a human Bard (2), Sorceror (6), Heartwarder (4) (Forgotten Realms - Faiths & Pantheons) at present. Heartwarder is improving the Sorceror casting, not bard, so her sorceror caster level is 11.

She's got Practiced Spellcasting, Energy Substitution [Fire], Bloodline of Fire, and some major enchantment bonuses/focus from her PrC. Her Charisma is 24 (+equipment), her caster level is 16 for fire spells (18 for caster level checks), 14 for other spells (16 for caster level checks). In a party with a cleric, paladin, Ranger/Fighter, Monk, & Rogue. She's able to outdamage most of them in any given situation as well as buff them to do more damage themselves (or avoid damage.) She's also got an armor class as good as her martial companions, and saving throws that look like a monk's.

Morty
2007-02-01, 02:36 PM
All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells. That being a level 1 spell, I can see why beguilers are not very useful in combat. Here's a list of creatures beguilers are useless against in combat:

Undead
Constructs
Plants
Vermin
Swarms
Oozes
High CR Outsiders (most of them either have protective aura or at will protection from alignment SLAs)

That's almost half the creatures in the DMG, closer to three quarters in any monster campaign. And that's not including creatures with spellcasting abilities that can cast protection from alignment.

Well, it's preety normal for class to have weaknesses. Not everyone is The Batman. Plus, Beguiler still has spells that affects such creatures. And what DM uses oozes anyway?
Personally, I have a feeling that Beguilers are overpowered compared to Rogues... but that's just a feeling, I don't have any experience with that.

Marius
2007-02-01, 02:57 PM
Well, it's preety normal for class to have weaknesses. Not everyone is The Batman. Plus, Beguiler still has spells that affects such creatures. And what DM uses oozes anyway?
Personally, I have a feeling that Beguilers are overpowered compared to Rogues... but that's just a feeling, I don't have any experience with that.

That's because rogues are underpowered. And yeah a beguiler can be usefull vs undeads and the like buffing his party members his haste for example.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 03:13 PM
All of the Beguiler's offencive capabilities are neutralised by Protection from Evil and similar spells.

That's a common misconception. Protection spells really only protect you from Charm, Dominate, and maybe a couple other spells. It doesn't render you immune to the entire Enchantment school of magic, just things that give the caster "ongoing control" over you.

Mike_G
2007-02-01, 03:17 PM
Beguilers aren't useless against those opponents, but are certialy less effective. They will rock in a city campaign, a campaign against human or hamanoid foes, or pretty much anywhere a Rogue would rock. In the Crypt of the Lich King, maybe not so much.

A Sorcerer has a bigger list to choose from, and can cover the weaknesses that a Beguiler can't. That balances the Sorcerer out as a better all purpose caster, and the Beguiler as a much better Rogue/caster hybird.

All in al, nicely balanced.

Person_Man
2007-02-01, 03:38 PM
Hmm. Between the comments of Bears-With-Lasers (fills one role well, magical capacity lags at high levels) and the comments of Person Man (agrees with role ful-fillment, argues that limited spell list keeps the arcane power of these classes in check) I have to wonder:

Would it balance magic with melee as an option if one tossed out standard Wizards and Sorcerors entirely in favor of an array of superspecialist magic classes like this? If you want blasting magic, play a warmage; if you want illusions, play a Beguiler; but permitting no class that allows full-spectrum spellcasting.

Would it be worthwhile to fill out the set of these? I suppose Clerics could be reconstructed similarly, around Domains rather than spell schools. Has this already been done?

I don't think anyone has done it yet, but I couldn't agree more. Ask yourself a simple question, "Is the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list inhearently superior to the Cleric or Druid spell list?" I would argue that if you're just going off the PHB and nothing else, then maybe. But with a million expansions, a Cleric can fufill any role just as well as a Wizard can, but they get more hit points, full armor, Domain powers, etc.

A better idea would be to have a limited lists of spells for each class, that should rarely overlap onto other classes. When they publish new spells, they should create a class specifically built around those spells, instead of dumping them into Clerics, Druids, and Wizards/Sorcerers, thus making them even more powerful then every other class.

That setup would also create a much greater variety of classes, and it makes party balance much easier to accomplish.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 03:44 PM
It would also sell less books :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 03:45 PM
It would also sell less books :smallwink:

Actually, it'd sell more, since there would be a different kind of caster in every book.

EDIT: And I may have found my next project.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-01, 03:52 PM
Damnit, I was gonna do it.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 03:52 PM
Actually, it'd sell more, since there would be a different kind of caster in every book.

EDIT: And I may have found my next project.

Lets say the original PHB had 4 casters, sorcerer, wizard, druid, cleric. Book 2 introduces 2 more casters, Book 3 introduces 2 more casters, etc, etc, etc. By the time we get to Book 5 we have 12 casters, why would we want to buy Book 6 when that would just increase our amount of casters by 2. The utility goes tremendously down.

At the same time you have a 15th lvl wizard, he gains nothing for buying book 2, 3, or 4. This is because he can't use those spells. It doesn't improve his character why should he be into it a new book?

The marketing strategy you suggest only works if the person is creating a character right about the time he goes book shopping.

------------------------------------------------------

A better option is to have limited spell lists and then with each new splatbook suggest this spell is appropriate for these 2 or 3 classes based off a theme. They have to permanently swap out a spell they have known to learn that spell.

The_Snark
2007-02-01, 03:55 PM
Hmmmm... I'm liking the idea of cutting the sorcerer and wizard in favor of beguilers, dread necromancers, warmages, and similar classes. Those are all fine classes (except maybe the warmage, and even then the fault lies mostly with blasting magic rather than the class), and you don't usually hear people complain about how they destroy the game and dominate every encounter.

Of course, you do have to do something about the cleric and druid, then... Perhaps drop the cleric altogether, and use the Favored Soul instead? Cloistered Clerics might be tolerable too, with a little editing of the spell list. Druids could probably be fixed by using the Shapeshift variant and reducing their spell list some.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-01, 03:55 PM
For new characters that I will be DMing, I plan to play with the house rule that clerics & druids start with the PHB spell list as their known personal spell list. Anytime they want spells from another sourcebook, they can use the PHBII retraining rules to swap out up to 2 spells per level from their current list and gain new ones from any book. Of course their class list still contains everything so using scrolls & wands won't be an issue.

Morty
2007-02-01, 04:04 PM
As for wizards, it can be one class, but with very restricting specialization. For example, we'd have Beguiler Wizard, Destroyer Wizard and Transmuter Wizard. Also, there could be Generic spell list containing spells every wizard can use regardless their specialization. Kinda like psionics, but I was mostly inspiered by Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 04:10 PM
Kinda like psionics, but I was mostly inspiered by Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
That is what I am thinking, are we recreating psionics?

JaronK
2007-02-01, 04:13 PM
I think the main reason why Beguilers are so much more balanced that Wizards is not just that they're focused... it's also because a lot of the really nasty overpowered spells (Alter Self, Polymorph line, Shivering Touch, etc) aren't on their list. As a result, even though they're more flexible in their element than a Sorcerer, they never have the game breaker spells.

That said, a Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage is all kinds of nasty.

JaronK

Lapak
2007-02-01, 04:27 PM
Damnit, I was gonna do it.You can both do it. Then I'll sit back and pick up the classes I like best, and reap all the benefits of having suggested it! :smallwink:

Heck, I've already snagged Fax's Loup du Noir; I may be able to completely repopulate my class list if you guys pick up this idea and run with it. :smallsmile:

BCOVertigo
2007-02-01, 04:27 PM
I think the main reason why Beguilers are so much more balanced that Wizards is not just that they're focused... it's also because a lot of the really nasty overpowered spells (Alter Self, Polymorph line, Shivering Touch, etc) aren't on their list....

Maybe, but it seems to me that breaking the 'overpowered' spells apart would fix the problem just as well. True one specialist mage would be able to do something awesome like polymorph, but they couldn't disjunction. I think it would effectively solve the issue many full casters have of being able to answer every obstacle by themselves and cover up their own weaknesses.
*Glares at the wildshaped bear throwing lightning*

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 04:43 PM
Maybe, but it seems to me that breaking the 'overpowered' spells apart would fix the problem just as well. True one specialist mage would be able to do something awesome like polymorph, but they couldn't disjunction. I think it would effectively solve the issue many full casters have of being able to answer every obstacle by themselves and cover up their own weaknesses.
*Glares at the wildshaped bear throwing lightning*
Exactly that is why the Beguiler at first glance seems a lot more powerful than a sorcerer, he just seems to have everything. Well the sorcerer on the other hand can combine all those overpowered spells, yet a beguiler can not (yet has more spells known, skillpoints, hp, and a few other benefits), thus the beguiler is more balanced and is more regular. One sorcerer can be the roXor (shudders when he says that word), yet another sorcerer can frankly suck. Beguilers are almost always decent/good and some can approach greatness.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 04:44 PM
You can both do it. Then I'll sit back and pick up the classes I like best, and reap all the benefits of having suggested it! :smallwink:

Heck, I've already snagged Fax's Loup du Noir; I may be able to completely repopulate my class list if you guys pick up this idea and run with it. :smallsmile:

You may be interested in my Paladin (see sig) and my wiki collection (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/).

I'm currently working on remaking the Sorceror so it doesn't suck, though that may get scrapped in favor of making specialist classes instead.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-01, 04:51 PM
Of course, one wonders if the poor Bard has any use at all with the Beguiler specializing in Enchantment and Illusions...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 04:58 PM
Of course, one wonders if the poor Bard has any use at all with the Beguiler specializing in Enchantment and Illusions...

Beguilers don't sing. :D

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 05:08 PM
Of course, one wonders if the poor Bard has any use at all with the Beguiler specializing in Enchantment and Illusions...


Beguilers don't sing. :D

Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 4/Virtuso 10

Take the apprentice feat from DMG 2 to get Perform as a class skill. I believe it was the "entertainer" subset of apprentice.

Remember also "A prestige bard casts arcane spells from the schools of divination, enchantment, and illusion at +2 caster level. She casts arcane spells from the schools of evocation and necromancy at -2 caster level."

Additionally according to page 71 of UA (note it isn't at d20srd for d20srd doesn't publish those small boxes in the corner/bottom of the page) you also gain all the bard unique spells as the way your class learns spells. Thus all the bard unique spells are insantly transfered to the beguiler spell list.

Won't get 9th lvl till lvl 20 though. But you will "sing" as a 14th lvl prestige bard which is enough for inspire courage +3, competence, + the sing abilites virtuso grants

BCOVertigo
2007-02-01, 05:11 PM
Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 4/Virtuso 10

Take the apprentice feat from DMG 2 to get Perform as a class skill. I believe it was the "entertainer" subset of apprentice.

Remember also "A prestige bard casts arcane spells from the schools of divination, enchantment, and illusion at +2 caster level. She casts arcane spells from the schools of evocation and necromancy at -2 caster level."

Additionally according to page 71 of UA (note it isn't at d20srd for d20srd doesn't publish those small boxes in the corner/bottom of the page) you also gain all the bard unique spells as the way your class learns spells. Thus all the bard unique spells are insantly transfered to the beguiler spell list.

Won't get 9th lvl till lvl 20 though. But you will "sing" as a 14th lvl prestige bard which is enough for inspire courage +3, competence, + the sing abilites virtuso grants

Gg bard, gg. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 05:14 PM
Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 4/Virtuso 10

Take the apprentice feat from DMG 2 to get Perform as a class skill. I believe it was the "entertainer" subset of apprentice.

Remember also "A prestige bard casts arcane spells from the schools of divination, enchantment, and illusion at +2 caster level. She casts arcane spells from the schools of evocation and necromancy at -2 caster level."

Additionally according to page 71 of UA (note it isn't at d20srd for d20srd doesn't publish those small boxes in the corner/bottom of the page) you also gain all the bard unique spells as the way your class learns spells. Thus all the bard unique spells are insantly transfered to the beguiler spell list.

Won't get 9th lvl till lvl 20 though. But you will "sing" as a 14th lvl prestige bard which is enough for inspire courage +3, competence, + the sing abilites virtuso grants

Ramza, sometimes you scare me.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 05:19 PM
Bah I miscounted the spell levels you lose. If you want to cast 9th lvl spells at lvl 20 it is Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 2/Virtuso 10/X 2.

Prestige Bard 4 loses a total of 2 lvl of spellcasting. You lose your second lvl of spellcasting at lvl 3 for inspire compontence. Virtuso also loses a lvl of spellcasting during its 1st lvl

So effectivley two builds
Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 2/Virtuso 10/X 2. for 9th lvl spells at lvl 20
or
Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 4/Virtuso 10 for 9th lvl spells at lvl 21+inspire compontence

Ramza, sometimes you scare me.

Is this a compliment:smallredface::smalleek::smallfrown:?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-01, 05:24 PM
Is this a compliment:smallredface::smalleek::smallfrown:?

Yes. Yes it is.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 06:25 PM
"Is the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list inhearently superior to the Cleric or Druid spell list?" I would argue that if you're just going off the PHB and nothing else, then maybe. But with a million expansions, a Cleric can fufill any role just as well as a Wizard can, but they get more hit points, full armor, Domain powers, etc.
Um--YES. Yes, it is inherently superior. I posted a list of Good To Awesome Sor/Wiz Spells just above. How many of those can a cleric or druid know? Only a few. And those few Sor/Wiz Only that you can get with domains, you can cast once per day.
Splatbooks or no splatbooks, clerics and druids can't do the wizard thing anywhere near as well as wizards. Even Archivists can't do the wizard thing.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-01, 06:55 PM
Actually, that would be very useful, yeah. I'm currently playing both a wizard and a sorcerer in two different campaigns, so it's something I'm interested in.

If things change and I need a new character, I think I'll go for a Beguiler next.

- Saph

Okay, here's a pared-down list, with as many as a sorcerer would know at 20th. It's not a perfected list; there'll be substitutions and options you can make, and it's biased heavily towards the debuffer/disabler/save-or-I-Win caster. It also doesn't take into account that you learn spells slowly as you level up (which spell besides Sleep should you learn at level 1? It's a toss-up) or that you swap a few out for new ones as you level up (at 4th, you probably lose Sleep for, say, Color Spray).

So, with that said, here's a core-only list:
Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Silent Image, Color Spray, Mage Armor
2: Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Alter Self, Mirror Image, Web
3: Haste (swap out for something once party all get boots of speed/Speed weapons/etc), Slow, Fly (might wanna swap it out for, oh, Wind Wall once you get Overland Flight, unless you use it on party members), Ray of Exhaustion
4: Enervation, Solid Fog, Confusion OR Fear, Greater Invisibility; swap one out for Polymorph if you're allowed to use it and don't feel dirty doing so.
5: Teleport, Overland Flight, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone
6: Disintegrate, Repulsion, Greater Dispel Magic
7: Finger of Death, Spell Turning, Greater Arcane Sight
8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Mind Blank, Irresistible Dance (if you have Arcane Reach)
9: Disjunction if you're playing with it, Shapechange if you're playing with it; Dominate Monster and, oh, Imprisonment if you're not using the other two. Time Stop.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-02, 11:09 AM
So, Fax, wanna try it? I take 4 schools, youtake the other 4? Dibs on Abjuration.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-02, 12:13 PM
Getting back to the original poster's question, I do believe that beguilers are better at their role than sorcerers are at their role. In fact, beguilers are considered the top expert (according to posters here); better than rogue, better even than arcane trickster (who can get to 17th level wizard casting, btw).

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 12:16 PM
Here's the thing--the Arcane Trickster is a better caster than the Beguiler, especially now with Unseen Seer. He's just not as good a skillmonkey. Of course, he's an *adequate* skillmonkey, which is all you need...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 12:18 PM
So, Fax, wanna try it? I take 4 schools, youtake the other 4? Dibs on Abjuration.

Sure. I'll take Illusion, Evocation, Divination, and either Transmutation or Necromancy.

Ramza00
2007-02-02, 03:18 PM
Here's the thing--the Arcane Trickster is a better caster than the Beguiler, especially now with Unseen Seer. He's just not as good a skillmonkey. Of course, he's an *adequate* skillmonkey, which is all you need...
The skillpoints are near identical, assuming 18 int at lvl 1, you put all 5 stat increases into Int and buy a +4 tome (or +5 at lvl 19)

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/575/skillpointstj2.jpg

In the end the beguiler has 20 more skill points, but the Rogue/Wizard 5/US 10/AT 4 has more skill points in the beginning till lvl 4. Anyway at 232 skillpoints that is more than enough to master 10+skills, do you really need more skillpoints?

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-02, 03:36 PM
Sure. I'll take Illusion, Evocation, Divination, and either Transmutation or Necromancy.
umm. Ill take Necromancy, Abjuration, Conjuration and Enchantment. Shall we call them Abjurer, Necromancer etc, or shall we come up with swanky new names? I like the second, but the first would be better for familiarity.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-02, 03:45 PM
umm. Ill take Necromancy, Abjuration, Conjuration and Enchantment. Shall we call them Abjurer, Necromancer etc, or shall we come up with swanky new names? I like the second, but the first would be better for familiarity.

Eh, swanky new. You want to make a thread in Homebrew or should I?

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-02, 03:48 PM
You do it.

Person_Man
2007-02-02, 05:03 PM
Okay, here's a pared-down list, with as many as a sorcerer would know at 20th. It's not a perfected list; there'll be substitutions and options you can make, and it's biased heavily towards the debuffer/disabler/save-or-I-Win caster. It also doesn't take into account that you learn spells slowly as you level up (which spell besides Sleep should you learn at level 1? It's a toss-up) or that you swap a few out for new ones as you level up (at 4th, you probably lose Sleep for, say, Color Spray).

So, with that said, here's a core-only list:
Level 1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Silent Image, Color Spray, Mage Armor
2: Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Alter Self, Mirror Image, Web
3: Haste (swap out for something once party all get boots of speed/Speed weapons/etc), Slow, Fly (might wanna swap it out for, oh, Wind Wall once you get Overland Flight, unless you use it on party members), Ray of Exhaustion
4: Enervation, Solid Fog, Confusion OR Fear, Greater Invisibility; swap one out for Polymorph if you're allowed to use it and don't feel dirty doing so.
5: Teleport, Overland Flight, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone
6: Disintegrate, Repulsion, Greater Dispel Magic
7: Finger of Death, Spell Turning, Greater Arcane Sight
8: Greater Shadow Evocation, Mind Blank, Irresistible Dance (if you have Arcane Reach)
9: Disjunction if you're playing with it, Shapechange if you're playing with it; Dominate Monster and, oh, Imprisonment if you're not using the other two. Time Stop.

A core only Wizard's spell list is much better then a core only Cleric's spell list. I won't argue against that.

But consider a Cleric with the Time and Travel domains (possible gods - Hermes, Mercury, H.G. Wells, Scott Bakula).

He gets access to Haste, Freedom of Movement, Contingency, Time Stop, Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport - plus good old Cure Spells, Summon spells, Sanctuary, Cause Fear, Silence, Hold Person, Protection from Evil, Protection from Energy, Divine Power, Death Ward, Blindness/Deafness, Greater Magic Weapon, Anti-Life Shell, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

If you're worried that you won't be able to use your excellent domain spells often enough, just invest in the Domain Spontaneity feat.

Throw in a copy of the Spell Compedium, and you get another metric ton of cleric spells. With enough suppliments, I'm pretty sure you can find a Cleric spell that does an effective job at any task (battlefield control, save or lose, buff spells, heal spells, divination, summoning, etc) that a Wizard spell can accomplish. And if there's a few spells that you can't get access to but desperately need (Invisibility, perhaps) you can always buy magic items.

Your initial list of arcane spells is pretty darn impressive. And I'm sure that if you put slightly more effort into it, you could come up with an even more impressive list. But there's an avalanche of suppliments out there, with hundreds (thousands?) of spells and over a hundred different domains. And unlike arcane spells, all you have to do is own the suppliment and have it approved by your DM to get access to any divine spell. Given all of that, I find it hard to believe that the arcane spell list is superior to the divine spell list.

Hopefully in the next edition, WotC will move towards limited list casters like the Beguiler, eliminating the whole codex creep problem (and debates like this one).

ken-do-nim
2007-02-02, 11:32 PM
Of course, one wonders if the poor Bard has any use at all with the Beguiler specializing in Enchantment and Illusions...

Poor bards. If you do a class ability comparison of beguiler or cleric to bard, you really have to ask how their spell list only goes up to 6. Bard is such a great concept, it's a shame they are underpowered. Of course there's that prestige class that jumps in and suddenly makes them go up to 9, but then they stop gaining music.

Ramza00
2007-02-02, 11:58 PM
Poor bards. If you do a class ability comparison of beguiler or cleric to bard, you really have to ask how their spell list only goes up to 6. Bard is such a great concept, it's a shame they are underpowered. Of course there's that prestige class that jumps in and suddenly makes them go up to 9, but then they stop gaining music.

Bard 9/Virtuso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuso 8