How to force people to keep deals?

[Nettlekid]

A cool kind of character, as either an NPC or a PC, is the kind of "make a deal with the devil" character who offers contracts and deals, usually somehow swung in their favor or just useful for both parties in a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" kind of way. I think Lawful Evil is really fun if played in this kind of way. But the difficult thing is getting the people you make the deals with to keep their end of it. I don't want a wishy-washy solution like "Wait for them to do their part first, and if they don't, don't do yours." I want to find some way that if two characters agree on a deal, then it will be DONE.

Problem is, the way for that to happen is to make a penalty for it not to be done, which tends to be pretty trivial. Mark of Justice is a pretty easy go-to spell for this, but Break Enchantment gets rid of it easily. The Contract of Nepthas from Complete Arcane would be perfect, and is perfect in flavor, but again Remove Curse or Break Enchantment render it null. Similarly, some kind of Contingent Spell crafted onto the target of the contract could just be dispelled, and if you wanted to make a Contingent Spell with the trigger that any Contingent Spell is dispelled, then you start getting into days of sitting there crafting spells, which isn't economical in any capacity.

Basically, something akin to Planar Binding, where once the terms of the deal are agreed upon the Outsider cannot go back on the terms, but I want it to be less of a coercive process and more of a forced agreement. I also don't want to resort to "If you go back on your word I'll blast you to pieces" because if that was the case, why bother with the deal at all?

So yeah, does anyone have suggestions on magical means that force parties making a contract to keep the bargain?

[Fouredged Sword]

I think this calls for a fair, impartial middle man with enough power to really hurt one side or the other.

Calling an Kolyarut sounds about right. Have it oversee the deal and promise to punish any side that breaks their word. Call several. Right up their ally.

[Nettlekid]

At mid-to-high levels, no one is going to be worried about Kolyaruts. Any number of them. Imagine a level 15 Wizard who has a great deal of power. You are the deal-maker, and for some reason you have some leverage over the Wizard. What are you going to do to make sure the Wizard keeps his side of whatever deal you pose?

[JeenLeen]

The only ways I can see it working are
1) the deal-maker is powerful enough to kill/deeply-hurt the one who agrees to the deal, such that not fulfilling their half of the bargain is bad. This could be not simply killing, but hurting one's assets or family. (not usually an issue in D&D)
2) society is set up such that if you do not fulfill your part of the bargain, you are socially dead. Think vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade; not fulfilling a favor is social/political suicide. This could work in D&D, or at least it could cut off the PC from future deals, but that might ruin fun, especially if the player doesn't think the threat is real beforehand.
3) the deal-maker has, or more reasonably works with/through someone who has, an artifact-level power/item that creates a 'greater geas', making it either literally impossible not to fulfill the deal or giving great consequences; and this is immune to Break Enchantment and the like (except other epic/deity-level means). This is a DM fiat sort of thing, but I think if you have the NPC be upfront with the player, then it's fair. (Make it not something the NPC themselves have, but maybe their deity's agent? The risk is what if the player steals said artifact, or justifying this guy having it.)


#1 and #2 could work if the deal-maker is a PC, but you probably don't want the PC to be strong enough to enforce #1. #2 only works if the setting allows such.

Personally, I like #2. But the big risk is if he makes his one big trade, then decides he doesn't need future ones, so he's fine with political suicide.

[Madeiner]

At mid-to-high levels, no one is going to be worried about Kolyaruts. Any number of them. Imagine a level 15 Wizard who has a great deal of power. You are the deal-maker, and for some reason you have some leverage over the Wizard. What are you going to do to make sure the Wizard keeps his side of whatever deal you pose?


I think Kolyaruts are the right answer, they just need some kind of different fluff. I am, they ARE inevitables, right? Means you can really get rid of them.
I'd send one kolyarut and if he fails, then send two. Then four. Stop at like sixteen kolyaruts, but send them each day. Each night. Each hour. Do not let the oathbreaker breathe without finding a kolyarut ready to attack.

They might not be able to kill him.. at first. Even if they never do kill him, the oathbreaker's life is destroyed anyway. Because each encounter he falls into, kolyaruts attack.

You going to bed? Sixteen inevitables in your room. You going to church? Talking to someone? Random encounter? Now it also has 16 inevitables.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think Kolyaruts are the right answer, they just need some kind of different fluff. I am, they ARE inevitables, right? Means you can really get rid of them.
I'd send one kolyarut and if he fails, then send two. Then four. Stop at like sixteen kolyaruts, but send them each day. Each night. Each hour. Do not let the oathbreaker breathe without finding a kolyarut ready to attack.

They might not be able to kill him.. at first. Even if they never do kill him, the oathbreaker's life is destroyed anyway. Because each encounter he falls into, kolyaruts attack.

You going to bed? Sixteen inevitables in your room. You going to church? Talking to someone? Random encounter? Now it also has 16 inevitables.

It's not like the cosmos will run out of them, and that kind of thing is exactly what mechanus would do if it got pissed at someone.

[tzar1990]

I tend to go for one of three ways:

1: Doing your part is part of making the deal - I'd go for this with critters that don't plan long term. For instance, making a deal with a short-sighted demon would require you to perform an evil, corruptive act to seal the deal.

2. The letter of the contract is magically unbreakable - you sign away your free will to perform or not perform in exchange for power. You can still get out, though, as long as you find some acceptable way to fulfill the letter of your comtract without obeying the intrnded meaning.

3. Some big scary jerk will wreck you if you fail to uphold your end of the deal. This works best for low-level / E6 games, where unleashing a demon by breaking your word isba legitimately terrifying prospect.

[Xervous]

I think Kolyaruts are the right answer, they just need some kind of different fluff. I am, they ARE inevitables, right? Means you can really get rid of them.
I'd send one kolyarut and if he fails, then send two. Then four. Stop at like sixteen kolyaruts, but send them each day. Each night. Each hour. Do not let the oathbreaker breathe without finding a kolyarut ready to attack.

They might not be able to kill him.. at first. Even if they never do kill him, the oathbreaker's life is destroyed anyway. Because each encounter he falls into, kolyaruts attack.

You going to bed? Sixteen inevitables in your room. You going to church? Talking to someone? Random encounter? Now it also has 16 inevitables.

Additionally, there is much precedence for Mechanus to dispatch upgraded inevitables designed to succeed where their predecessors failed, so by all means the kolyaruts may quickly end up being designed to counter every facet of the oath breaker in question.

[BWR]

Earlier editions of the game had spells for this, like

Contract of Nephthys
(Enchantment)
Level: Clr 4
Range: touch
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting time: special (about 10 minutes)
Duration: 1 year
Area of Effect: 2 creatures
Saving throw: none
Spell resistance: no

Two willing beings make a contract with each other. If the conditions of the agreement are broken, the guilty party will suffer penalties. If the breach occurs despite the best efforts of the involved party, they cannot profit on the venture in any way, but may possibly break even. Any party that deliberately breaks the contract will lose all wealth and material possessions, be driven to bankruptcy and possibly worse, and be unable to regain any material wealth. The spell ends after one year, at which point both parties are free to break the contract if they so desire, and all penalties will end at this time. Both parties mcan meet and agree to cancel the spell so long as a forfeiture price is paid to the cater or another priest of Nephthys, of equal or higher level.
Material components: hair or similar substance from both parties and a gold chain worth 1000 gp.

[Zaq]

This wouldn't work if deals of this caliber are very rare, but if they're relatively common (not necessarily every day, but often enough that it's going to hurt to not be able to do them), then simple reputation is a powerful deterrent. You might not be able to physically rough up the dealbreakers, but if you don't hold up your end of the bargain, then guess what? You're not getting any more bargains. From anyone. Because no one wants to deal with a dealbreaker.

This shifts the issue into how that's enforced. How do you prove that someone did or did not hold up their end of the bargain? That could be part of some magical contract (sure, it can't Dominate you into doing your part, but it can mark you as a dealbreaker if you don't), or there could be a relatively impartial organization (think one of the Eberron Dragonmarked Houses, or maybe one of the more Lawful-leaning Planescape factions) dedicated to recording that sort of thing, or it could just be so deeply ingrained in the culture of the world that there's no real getting around it. Whatever will do the least harm to your setting (and whatever the PCs will be least inclined to try to game), I guess.

Maybe even just a common magic item or ritual that you can only perform if you've been faithful to your deals. Let's say there's a cheap and commonly-available (yet hard to fake . . . again, I'm thinking something like what a Dragonmarked House would come up with) magical token for swearing this kind of oath . . . when you make a deal, you break the token and swear to uphold your end of the bargain. The catch, of course, is that if you don't uphold your end of the bargain, then any time you try to break another one of these tokens, it just doesn't break. (Think Roy trying and failing to summon Celia, though obviously for different reasons.) Or it's a specialized scroll that you read when you make a deal, and if you've broken a deal sworn with one of these scrolls, then you simply can't read any others; your tongue dries up, your breath won't leave your throat, and you just can't recite the words, because dealbreakers can't read these scrolls out loud. So everyone involved in these kinds of deals will, naturally, insist on both participants using one of these tokens or scrolls, both as assurance up front (if you can use the token, then you're not in the habit of breaking deals) and as an automatic deterrent (if you break this deal, you're never getting another one).

[Nettlekid]

Okay, these answers/suggestions aren't really what I was hoping for. Let's say this is a PC, who's basing their character around having some network of favors and deals and bargains. A PC who, if built with it in mind, could have phenomenal blasting power, sure, but would prefer to either not go that route or never have to use it, because that's boorish. A PC that doesn't want to rely on the input of third-parties, be it the forces behind Inevitable deployment in Mechanus or the social expectations of a town.

To make it even more narrow, imagine a DM who loves Chaotic Neutral bordering on Chaotic Stupid characters, and the kinds of NPCs this DM would make. Potentially powerful (in some way) NPCs that would love to do the usual "Yes, fetch me the ancient artifact and I will give you your reward...(WHICH WILL BE YOUR DEATH!)" kind of thing if there's nothing preventing that from happening. How could a player build a character with abilities that could lock in a deal that was agreed upon by both parties and make things Lawful to a fault, knowing that if these failsafes that we're trying to figure out weren't in place, he'd be betrayed all over the place?

Ideally it could be something usable repeatedly and frequently. A super-Lawful and paranoid character who might make a contract with a tavern owner that upon payment for food in a restaurant he will receive food, and food that's not knowingly poisoned by the tavern owner or any of the tavern owner's associates. That kind of thing. Or like, imagine that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon claims that it'll give him half of its hoard for a certain service. This character, knowing the Red Dragon would never do that and so is going to lie and betray him, sets up a contract that would FORCE the dragon to do so if it's agreed to, and will probably make the dragon just attack because the dragon won't agree to it. What kind of ability could that be?

[Fouredged Sword]

Nothing like that can stand up to a powerful caster. Anything short of epic casting will fall to some form of magical removal, and epic casting can be defeated by epic casting.

When dealing with powerful characters who have no social or moral resistance to betrayal, there is no means to stop them short of payment up front.

[Nettlekid]

Nothing like that can stand up to a powerful caster. Anything short of epic casting will fall to some form of magical removal, and epic casting can be defeated by epic casting.

When dealing with powerful characters who have no social or moral resistance to betrayal, there is no means to stop them short of payment up front.

See, I'm doubtful of this, just because there doesn't seem to be anything in D&D that CAN'T be done, or have some kind of counter, just by virtue of WotC's love of absolute statements.

For example, the Contract of Nepthas from Complete Arcane, while a magical effect when broken, doesn't state that it's any kind of lingering effect on the signers and doesn't have any protocol to being dispelled or broken before the actual curse goes off. Once the curse DOES go off it's trivial to remove, but that kind of thing.

Similarly, there seems to be no defense against Planar Binding. Or well, there's defense, but no absolute guard. If it was an Outsider you wanted to make the deal with, you could Planar Bind them and once terms were agreed on there's nothing that either of you can do to break them for the duration of the contract.

How do Devils in the D&D cosmology enforce the deals they make? Is it just a fluffy "they drag your soul away if you don't" and that's it, or is there an actual ability anywhere?

[Madeiner]

imagine a DM who loves Chaotic Neutral bordering on Chaotic Stupid characters, and the kinds of NPCs this DM would make. Potentially powerful (in some way) NPCs that would love to do the usual "Yes, fetch me the ancient artifact and I will give you your reward...(WHICH WILL BE YOUR DEATH!)" kind of thing if there's nothing preventing that from happening. How could a player build a character with abilities that could lock in a deal that was agreed upon?


That's a completely different question than before!
Here i would not think of abilities or powers. If the DM WANTS to screw you over, he always can.
I'd roleplay this, trying to outsmart the NPC, not rely on any abilities or spells.
Because clearly the NPCs are trying to outsmart you; if you can lock em down with a single spell or ritual, then that part of the game is gone. Either the DM decides the spell doesnt work and you get "betrayed", or he decides it works and he wont even try to make these kind of deals anymore, knowing they are not effective.

[madtinker]

For enforcing deals with social mechanics, you could use something like the shame mechanic with ex-samurai/ronin. -2 to social interactions for every deal broken. Can beadjusted based on magnitude of broken deal and parties involved.

[Nettlekid]

That's a completely different question than before!
Here i would not think of abilities or powers. If the DM WANTS to screw you over, he always can.
I'd roleplay this, trying to outsmart the NPC, not rely on any abilities or spells.
Because clearly the NPCs are trying to outsmart you; if you can lock em down with a single spell or ritual, then that part of the game is gone. Either the DM decides the spell doesnt work and you get "betrayed", or he decides it works and he wont even try to make these kind of deals anymore, knowing they are not effective.

I KNOW that the DM can do anything, that goes without saying. But my example is based off of a DM whose default setting is "screw them over in a CN style" but doesn't care enough to railroad. And more importantly, it's the PC, the player, who's making these deals. It's what the PC does. Imagine someone like Crowley from Supernatural, who I think is a good example of Lawful Evil. Doesn't make bad deals, and makes ones that are always beneficial to him, and he doesn't really care if they are or aren't helpful to other people, even his enemies. What I'm trying to find is some way to ensure that the deals are kept by the other side, because they will be by him.

See, it's stuff like this that makes people think Chaotic Neutral is the "best" alignment, because there are no consequences for doing whatever you want and breaking laws if you're always stronger than the one making the rules (and you probably will be).

[squiggit]

snip.

Crowley enforces his deals by having an army of demons that can drag your soul away ( as well as being powerful himself ).

And besides, that's slightly a bad example considering thatHe's run into the exact situation you've described and he got screwed over by the more powerful entity

[NichG]

You don't need magical compulsions or hordes of inevitables for this. You basically need some form of leverage or collateral. It becomes harder when you're talking about high level wizards and the like, but it can still be done.

For example, in a short-term contract you could hold the wizard's spellbook as collateral for him completing the contract. If the contract is lucrative enough for him to be interested in making a deal in the first place, then that might be enough to convince him to offer collateral. Then, when the contract is done, you release the book to him.

Or even simpler - half paid now, half paid on delivery of a successful outcome. You can't stop him from taking the first half of the pay, but if he wants the second half he'll deliver. And if you betray him, he keeps whatever he was tasked to deliver and half the pay. So neither side really gains from betraying the other (harder if the contract isn't a retrieval but is something else, like an assassination).

If it isn't a retrieval, then the best way to do it is an extended business relationship, such that ending the stream of new deals itself would be a punishment for both sides.

Now, if you're talking something one-off like a devil's bargain, that becomes trickier because you can't use the loss of future gains as a threat. The structure of the interaction then becomes something more like compulsion - which means that its likely that there's not really a deal, and one side could just force compliance without offering anything in return (or at best, offering a release of their leverage). For this to work, the 'deal maker' would have to have something the wizard needs, and simply refuse to release it unless the deal was honored. For example, the 'deal maker' wants the wizard to not help a certain kingdom in their war, and has a tuning fork to a demiplane that contains a hint to the location of one of the Nether Scrolls that the wizard wants. The deal-maker says 'you stay out of the war for 6 months and I will give you the tuning fork'. If the wizard doesn't play along, he doesn't get the fork (the deal-maker could simply destroy it).

Guaranteeing very long-term good behavior is proportionately much harder. You really do need leverage that keeps on lever-ing and can't be shortcut by e.g. killing the deal-maker. This can sometimes be managed by using things designed to be publicized upon the deal-maker's death and which the wizard and deal-maker are, by design, both complicit in. Of course that requires the wizard to care about being outed. An example might be if the wizard wanted a top-tier position in a magic academy, and the deal-maker used their contacts to make it happen, but with the clause that it must be renewed every year, which requires active effort on the part of the deal-maker. If the wizard reneges on their deal, the position is not renewed. If the deal-maker fails to come through, the wizard is no longer bound by the deal.

[Zweisteine]

At mid-to-high levels, no one is going to be worried about Kolyaruts.
Advanced Kolyaruts!
Kolyaruts with class levels!
Kolyaruts with class levels instead of RHD!

The possibilities are endless!

[Slipperychicken]

There's a simple solution which works IRL: If the guy can't be trusted, don't do business with him. Or simply require he pays upfront.

Collateral helps too. Family members are good for this, assuming a non-murderhobo. Assuming a murderhobo, then some of his stuff (especially primary weapon and stat-boosters) should do nicely.

[Crake]

You don't need magical compulsions or hordes of inevitables for this. You basically need some form of leverage or collateral. It becomes harder when you're talking about high level wizards and the like, but it can still be done.

Yup, I was gonna suggest collateral myself.

Whether the other party gives you the collateral willingly, or you do some research on your business partner and collect the collateral yourself, something near and dear to the opposing party is what you are looking for.

Of course, if the opposing party is a murderhobo PC, that might be a bit hard, as they have completely detached themselves from the world, and all their prized possessions are on their body. But in a case like that, you can ask them to give up their most valuable possession as collateral. If the deal goes through, they get it back, if not, the dealmaker gets to keep it.

e:f;b

[XionUnborn01]

I thought there was a magical blank contract in one of the books that was what devils used. I don't really remember where to look for it, or even if it's actually a thing. Anyone know for sure?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The collateral is Gate.

It can be used to exact a prolonged or more involved service from any creature, but you have to offer fair trade or reward for it. If you do not, you're automatically subject to service to that creature, or his master.

Gate cannot be dispelled or later removed as it is an instantaneous effect. In addition, it is not mind-affecting so most creatures are not immune to it.

[Nettlekid]

The collateral is Gate.

It can be used to exact a prolonged or more involved service from any creature, but you have to offer fair trade or reward for it. If you do not, you're automatically subject to service to that creature, or his master.

Gate cannot be dispelled or later removed as it is an instantaneous effect. In addition, it is not mind-affecting so most creatures are not immune to it.

Okay, that's pretty clever. Do you get them to Gate you, so if they break their word you automatically control them, or do you just Gate them in the first place?

How would you suggest circumventing the fact that they must be Extraplanar to call them? True, you can catch a lot of Wizards and the like if they're hiding out on a Genesis-built plane, but it doesn't do much good to anyone who isn't.

In either case, the XP costs will get pretty high after a while. Is this a time for the Truenamer to shine?

[Crake]

Okay, that's pretty clever. Do you get them to Gate you, so if they break their word you automatically control them, or do you just Gate them in the first place?

How would you suggest circumventing the fact that they must be Extraplanar to call them? True, you can catch a lot of Wizards and the like if they're hiding out on a Genesis-built plane, but it doesn't do much good to anyone who isn't.

In either case, the XP costs will get pretty high after a while. Is this a time for the Truenamer to shine?

Extraplanar is a relative term, all you need to do is go to a plane where they aren't native (except the astral plane, no creatures are extraplanar there iirc) and you can gate them from there.

Also hmm, that's actually a good point, truenamer could be quite good at a role like this.

[Segev]

How would you suggest circumventing the fact that they must be Extraplanar to call them?

This part's easy: you go to another plane, yourself, and then Gate them to it. It doesn't say YOU can't also be extraplanar.



But I think what the author is looking for is a way for the character with the contract to actually have power granted by said contract. Power to take what he is owed, power greater than he normally would have over and with the one who made the deal with him, and power only insofar as it aligns with enforcing the contract.

[Nettlekid]

Extraplanar is a relative term, all you need to do is go to a plane where they aren't native (except the astral plane, no creatures are extraplanar there iirc) and you can gate them from there.


This part's easy: you go to another plane, yourself, and then Gate them to it. It doesn't say YOU can't also be extraplanar.



But I think what the author is looking for is a way for the character with the contract to actually have power granted by said contract. Power to take what he is owed, power greater than he normally would have over and with the one who made the deal with him, and power only insofar as it aligns with enforcing the contract.

Don't they have to be on the non-native plane to be Extraplanar?

And no, I really just wanted to be able to enforce the contract. In the simplest terms, for two creatures to say "I will do this thing, and you will do that thing," and then they do it and can't choose not to do it.

[TuggyNE]

Don't they have to be on the non-native plane to be Extraplanar?

Possibly, but only by a dysfunctional reading that only allows e.g. gating Planetars if they are not on the upper planes, or Balors only if they are absent from the Abyss. Generally that reading is not considered useful for a practical game, so the alternate reading of "extraplanar" (being "on and from a different plane than the caster such that they will possess the [extraplanar] subtype upon successful calling") is used instead.

[Nettlekid]

Possibly, but only by a dysfunctional reading that only allows e.g. gating Planetars if they are not on the upper planes, or Balors only if they are absent from the Abyss. Generally that reading is not considered useful for a practical game, so the alternate reading of "extraplanar" (being "on and from a different plane than the caster such that they will possess the [extraplanar] subtype upon successful calling") is used instead.

Ah, that does make sense. Hadn't thought about the full implications of forcing the target to start off Extraplanar.

Okay, so Gate seems like the best way to enforce that two people do what they intend to. A verbal deal is made, the PC Plane Shifts somewhere else (perhaps their personal deal-making Genesis bubble) and proceeds to Gate the other party in. The dealmaker states the bargain in the style of Planar Ally or Planar Binding (although Gate doesn't actually state any way for the Called creature to refuse the offer...I guess it should just work as Planar Ally) and the deal should be accepted since it's what was just agreed upon. And then I guess from then on the Gated creature absolutely cannot break the terms of the contract because Gate forces them not to, and the caster can't break the terms or else they immediately give the other party control over them. That seems like it works pretty well.

The only issue is cost. Apart from using a cheesy custom magic item of Gate that has the XP cost paid off (several fold, but as a one-off payment) during its creation, what's the best means to build this without having to spend 1000 XP on every deal you want to make? Truenamer does get a free Gate, but that Duration: 1 minute looks like it might override the Instantaneous duration of the normal spell, and that would be bad. If you could mass-produce Candles of Invocation and know the alignment of the other party you could use that, but I don't know (apart from Wish and stuff) an effective means of doing that. What else might work? Obviously I know Gate can be seriously cheesed, and I guess I'm looking for mild forms of that since I'm looking to wipe off the XP cost, but I do not want to be chain-Gating Solars.

[BrokenChord]

Ah, that does make sense. Hadn't thought about the full implications of forcing the target to start off Extraplanar.

Okay, so Gate seems like the best way to enforce that two people do what they intend to. A verbal deal is made, the PC Plane Shifts somewhere else (perhaps their personal deal-making Genesis bubble) and proceeds to Gate the other party in. The dealmaker states the bargain in the style of Planar Ally or Planar Binding (although Gate doesn't actually state any way for the Called creature to refuse the offer...I guess it should just work as Planar Ally) and the deal should be accepted since it's what was just agreed upon. And then I guess from then on the Gated creature absolutely cannot break the terms of the contract because Gate forces them not to, and the caster can't break the terms or else they immediately give the other party control over them. That seems like it works pretty well.

The only issue is cost. Apart from using a cheesy custom magic item of Gate that has the XP cost paid off (several fold, but as a one-off payment) during its creation, what's the best means to build this without having to spend 1000 XP on every deal you want to make? Truenamer does get a free Gate, but that Duration: 1 minute looks like it might override the Instantaneous duration of the normal spell, and that would be bad. If you could mass-produce Candles of Invocation and know the alignment of the other party you could use that, but I don't know (apart from Wish and stuff) an effective means of doing that. What else might work? Obviously I know Gate can be seriously cheesed, and I guess I'm looking for mild forms of that since I'm looking to wipe off the XP cost, but I do not want to be chain-Gating Solars.

Why not? Solars are fun :smalltongue: Not cheesy at all.

More seriously, I think the above businesslike options are probably better for multiple deals. Gate is mainly for those one-shot deals.

... Which sans scrolls still doesn't really work until level 17, but hey, it's something.

Actually... Doesn't Planar Binding generally do this? I mean, it's not technically force, but if the wizard fails on their end of the bargain with a demon/devil who is actually powerful enough to offer you something you can't get yourself, there is little time predicted to be remaining in the wizard's life. Or at least free will, depending upon the creature in question.

Of course, this is all kind of over my head. I just stick to making deals with Good creatures.

[Sith_Happens]

A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.

That should be good for most things.

[Malroth]

Take the Mother Cyst feat and refuse to deal with anyone not implanted with your Necrotic Cyst, concider removal of the cyst a breach of contract.

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually, I have an idea. Use one of the contract items. If I am not mistaken, you are informed when the deal is broken by one side or the other.

Then write INTENT to break the deal or double cross as a deal breaker. This way, if they intend to double cross you, you will get a heads up.

[SiuiS]

Okay, these answers/suggestions aren't really what I was hoping for. Let's say this is a PC, who's basing their character around having some network of favors and deals and bargains. A PC who, if built with it in mind, could have phenomenal blasting power, sure, but would prefer to either not go that route or never have to use it, because that's boorish. A PC that doesn't want to rely on the input of third-parties, be it the forces behind Inevitable deployment in Mechanus or the social expectations of a town.

Courtesan class from rokugan campaigning setting. You get x amountst If clout, where any city you walk Into owes you favors, payable in troops, items or money up to a certain amount, or social favors. You also get a cohort network, with a cohort getting a free cohort. It's a base class.

[JeenLeen]

For Gate: perhaps make it a special magic item (that the PC got somehow) that only works to Gate someone who is willing and anticipating the gate? That way it avoids most cheese, as you cannot use it to summon whatever whenever, but basically only for said contracts. Have the PC pay for it out of some of his gold, but probably not a ton... or whatever seems fair.

So, basically a magic item of Gate (infinite uses or 1/day), with no cost or limit of charges. Perhaps put a casting time on it of an hour or something, if Gate doesn't already have such. (I'm not very familiar with the spell besides knowing it's cheesey and has an xp-cost, which together make me avoid it.)

If the DM and player are okay with vague rules for the sake of fun, they could just say OOC that they both understand the purpose of the item and, for some reason, it doesn't work for other purposes (i.e., using it for something other than these contracts or similar things.)


But if you want something strictly RAW (i.e., not a custom item with vague rules) and without xp-cost and/or Gate shenanigans, then having some sort of collateral or a 'pay half up front; half on delivery' sounds best. That's all RP, not rules (besides perhaps some Sense Motive and Bluff checks to detect who is screwing who.)

EDIT: what level is the PC, what level does the party plan to reach by end of campaign, what level range are the NPCs? We're talking level 9 spells here, but if it's a party of low-level, then it changes the setup.

[Fouredged Sword]

Though, on the sense motive front, burning a divine insight and a guidance of the avatar may be worth it for a sensitive deal. +25->35 to your sense motive check will offset even glibness. That should help you stay out of traps.

[Nettlekid]

Why not? Solars are fun :smalltongue: Not cheesy at all.

More seriously, I think the above businesslike options are probably better for multiple deals. Gate is mainly for those one-shot deals.

... Which sans scrolls still doesn't really work until level 17, but hey, it's something.

Actually... Doesn't Planar Binding generally do this? I mean, it's not technically force, but if the wizard fails on their end of the bargain with a demon/devil who is actually powerful enough to offer you something you can't get yourself, there is little time predicted to be remaining in the wizard's life. Or at least free will, depending upon the creature in question.

Of course, this is all kind of over my head. I just stick to making deals with Good creatures.

Yeah, I guess for a deal-making character they're going to want several ways of keeping bargains. When dealing with someone of much lower level, any leverage or even the threat of violence should hold them over. Someone of somewhat lower level, a Contract of Nepthas or a Mark of Justice should do it. Someone of about equal level but maybe lower power (not a caster, and so long as they aren't immune to mind-affecting) is dealt with by Geas. And someone of higher level or power should have Gate used to seal the deal.

Planar Binding works perfectly for Outsiders and the like. If there was some form of it that I could use for everyday folk, or failing that an easy spell to cast to make someone else count as an Outsider and subsequently Bind them.

[Segev]

This might be best done as a class feature or ACF, but you'd have to choose the class (or design it) carefully to make it useful. I'm going to write it as a feat, for now, so we can examine it on its own and see how to pull it apart. It is an effort to mechanically represent the kind of advantage a "deal-maker" has over those who violate their deals.


Bound By Contract
You never break an agreement. None should dare break one with you.
Prerequisites: Lawful alignment
Benefit: When you and another willingly agree to a bargain (where "willingly" means both parties are aware they are agreeing to something and none are under any Compulsion effects that restrain their ability to refuse), you gain certain privileges and the power to enforce the contract.

When acting to claim your due according to such a contract, spell resistance and saving throws do not apply to your class abilities, spells, spell-like, or supernatural abilities, and you receive an axiomatic bonus to skill checks, armor class, saving throws, and attack bonuses equal to the highest CR of all individuals who are party to the contract.

If you are, yourself, in violation of such an agreement, you instead automatically fail any saving throw, have an effective spell resistance of 0, and suffer axiomatic penalties of the same severity to your save DCs, armor class, saving throws, skill checks, and attack bonuses against any who are rightfully opposing you in pursuit of their due.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Uhuh. And what happens when people exploit it?

For example, individuals A and B make a contract that B will kill individual C in exchange for A paying them 10.000 gp. B kills C, pays 5000 gp to raise him from the dead and then goes to collect the 10.000 gp from A for the "kill". A pays but a week later he sees C walking around very much alive. Is he entitled to a breach of contract?


For another example, a summoner summons a succubus, wards her from divinations and has her make deals with people with that feat while wearing the likeness of other individuals who have no idea what is going on and will surely "violate" those deals. Hilarity ensues, as well as many lawful people with this feat dying when trying to claim their due and believing they're invulnerable. Oh, and the succubus has hot sex with the summoner. A lot.

[Segev]

Uhuh. And what happens when people exploit it?

For example, individuals A and B make a contract that B will kill individual C in exchange for A paying them 10.000 gp. B kills C, pays 5000 gp to raise him from the dead and then goes to collect the 10.000 gp from A for the "kill". A pays but a week later he sees C walking around very much alive. Is he entitled to a breach of contract?You are familiar with "deal with the devil" kinds of stories, right?



For another example, a summoner summons a succubus, wards her from divinations and has her make deals with people with that feat while wearing the likeness of other individuals who have no idea what is going on and will surely "violate" those deals. Hilarity ensues, as well as many lawful people with this feat dying when trying to claim their due and believing they're invulnerable. Oh, and the succubus has hot sex with the summoner. A lot.

I'm not following this one. How is the succubus's behavior going to invalidate the protections of this feat? Or am I missing something in your assumptions?

[Nettlekid]

Uhuh. And what happens when people exploit it?

For example, individuals A and B make a contract that B will kill individual C in exchange for A paying them 10.000 gp. B kills C, pays 5000 gp to raise him from the dead and then goes to collect the 10.000 gp from A for the "kill". A pays but a week later he sees C walking around very much alive. Is he entitled to a breach of contract?


For another example, a summoner summons a succubus, wards her from divinations and has her make deals with people with that feat while wearing the likeness of other individuals who have no idea what is going on and will surely "violate" those deals. Hilarity ensues, as well as many lawful people with this feat dying when trying to claim their due and believing they're invulnerable. Oh, and the succubus has hot sex with the summoner. A lot.

I think in that first example, although it's treacherous move by person B, it's not a breach of the contract. In that instance, person A was too lax in making that deal. In our world, killing is pretty absolute, but in D&D with the revolving door afterlife, person A should have stipulated that person C be killed with a Thinaun weapon and request the weapon, soul-intact, be brought to him, or worded it such that to uphold the contract person B must make all necessary arrangements to make person C stay dead, though still when the contract is over person B could Raise person C. Still, from a totally Lawful point of view, person B followed the contract.

In the other case, I'm not sure what the purpose is. I think as an addendum to the feat, alongside the whole "compulsion effects" thing, any deal made under false pretenses should be rendered null and void. It was sort of stated in the whole "both parties are aware they are agreeing" thing, since if one is fake, the other isn't aware of it. I suppose the Succubus could then take advantage of the other party's regular stats when they think they're invulnerable, sure, but it would be a lot of effort to get what amounts to a surprise round. But regardless, that doesn't really pertain to making deals, just lying about making deals.

If that feat existed, I think the point is that the dealmaker is the one that controls the argument. The dealmaker shouldn't be tricked into making a bad deal, because if the deal is bad then the dealmaker just rejects it. Only when a deal that the dealmaker wants is designed should the dealmaker agree to it, at which point that feat makes it so that the enemy party cannot overpower the dealmaker when they decide to throw the contract out the window.

Unfortunately, no such feat like that exists, and I'd be annoyed to have to homebrew something like that. I was hoping to find a spell or class feature that did much the same.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Magical identity theft via succubus shapeshift. If the succubus makes a deal in your name while looking like you, there will be people trying to enforce contracts you never made - and they'll be convinced you did.

Illusion. Someone goes to a contract-making and casts a (silent+stilled) illusion that conceals what he's actually saying while he's saying something else. So he could sound like he promised to "work for 8 hours in exchange for X gold" while what he really promised is "I'll kill you and take X gold from your corpse". So when he makes the murder attempt and you try to defend yourself, you find out you've agreed to your own death!
Or more simply, someone has an invisible imp in their shoulder. When "promising" stuff, he's just pretending to speak while the imp produces the voice. He never swore anything (the imp did) so he isn't bound.

Magical compulsion to force someone to invalidate a contract. I.e. someone sworn to protect someone else is dominated into killing them instead.







And so on and so forth. In a magical world, trying to uphold the Law is a nightmare with the number of things that can warp reality itself so that someone's actions are not really their actions.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The dealmaker shouldn't be tricked into making a bad deal, because if the deal is bad then the dealmaker just rejects it.
Bluff of 30+ vs Sense Motive of 10: "This IS the deal you're looking for"



Only when a deal that the dealmaker wants is designed should the dealmaker agree to it, at which point that feat makes it so that the enemy party cannot overpower the dealmaker when they decide to throw the contract out the window.
Of course they can overpower the dealmaker. They stab him in the back before they break the contract. It's not as if a contract about killing target C specifically prevents them from killing dealmaker A. And after they kill dealmaker A, the "protection" of the feat is rather irrelevant.
Or, you know, hire/gate/summon/raise/craft somebody else to overpower the dealmaker - someone that didn't sign any contract. When an Archdevil promises not to kill you, he doesn't promise the several thousand pit fiends in his service will not.

[Seto]

Magical identity theft via succubus shapeshift. If the succubus makes a deal in your name while looking like you, there will be people trying to enforce contracts you never made - and they'll be convinced you did.

Yeah. Great adventure hook. If your point is "a Succubus can screw you over by looking like you and doing things in your name", you're right ; but the problem isn't with the feat, it's with the Succubus.


Illusion. Someone goes to a contract-making and casts a (silent+stilled) illusion that conceals what he's actually saying while he's saying something else. So he could sound like he promised to "work for 8 hours in exchange for X gold" while what he really promised is "I'll kill you and take X gold from your corpse".So when he makes the murder attempt and you try to defend yourself, you find out you've agreed to your own death!

No, of course it wouldn't work. "Both parties know they're agreeing to something" means that they agree upon the same thing. "Something" is here used as a reference to a precise thing, not as "whatever, the important is the agreement".


Or more simply, someone has an invisible imp in their shoulder. When "promising" stuff, he's just pretending to speak while the imp produces the voice. He never swore anything (the imp did) so he isn't bound.

Ok, a clause should be added to verify not only the contract, but the identity of the persons who agree. Something to the effect of "this feat only has effect if the contract is void of any deception or falsehood by the contracting persons."


Magical compulsion to force someone to invalidate a contract. I.e. someone sworn to protect someone else is dominated into killing them instead.

And so on and so forth. In a magical world, trying to uphold the Law is a nightmare with the number of things that can warp reality itself so that someone's actions are not really their actions.

I think Devils have encountered that issue and I'm sure they have something thought out. We could turn to that. Or simply add "willfully" in front of the violation clause.

The problem I have with that feat is that it feels really too powerful to be a feat. A class feature could be better, and even then... I could see it better as, like, a 7th or 8th level spell.

[Segev]

Magical identity theft via succubus shapeshift. If the succubus makes a deal in your name while looking like you, there will be people trying to enforce contracts you never made - and they'll be convinced you did.Technically, the succubus is bound by the deal she made. She agreed to it, even if under a false name. She knew to what she was agreeing. Now, if a third party compelled her to, it wouldn't stand, but then, there is no agreement.


Illusion. Someone goes to a contract-making and casts a (silent+stilled) illusion that conceals what he's actually saying while he's saying something else. So he could sound like he promised to "work for 8 hours in exchange for X gold" while what he really promised is "I'll kill you and take X gold from your corpse". So when he makes the murder attempt and you try to defend yourself, you find out you've agreed to your own death!Then it isn't the agreement to which you signed, so it's invalid. In fact, if the other guy knows he is agreeing to something else, he's still bound by what he agrees to.

Or more simply, someone has an invisible imp in their shoulder. When "promising" stuff, he's just pretending to speak while the imp produces the voice. He never swore anything (the imp did) so he isn't bound.The imp is bound.


Magical compulsion to force someone to invalidate a contract. I.e. someone sworn to protect someone else is dominated into killing them instead.Unless the contract stipulated "best effort" or "willingly" or the like to protect against such clauses, being forced/compelled to break your part of the deal is no different than failing to complete it for any other reason.


And so on and so forth. In a magical world, trying to uphold the Law is a nightmare with the number of things that can warp reality itself so that someone's actions are not really their actions.Not really; note again that the point of this is to make the contract-maker character archetype, not to create a spirit-and-letter-of-the-law protection. It's fundamentally designed to allow the holder of the feat to exploit his power over those who break deals (or to gain something worthwhile from said deals). If the feat-holder is somehow tricked or otherwise made to default...well, his own power turns on him. Live by the sword...


Bluff of 30+ vs Sense Motive of 10: "This IS the deal you're looking for"If your deal-maker has a crappy Sense Motive, that's his own fault. Also, he can analyze the deal for its own merits, so unless the other guy has a better skill at making a twisty-worded deal with loopholes than does our deal-maker, he's not going to be fooled. More importantly, he again is meant to be the one holding the cards: he won't make a deal that's not good for him. That includes deals he isn't sure he understands through and through. (If he does, more the fool him.)


Of course they can overpower the dealmaker. They stab him in the back before they break the contract. It's not as if a contract about killing target C specifically prevents them from killing dealmaker A. And after they kill dealmaker A, the "protection" of the feat is rather irrelevant.By that logic, they can overpower him before making the deal and force him to sign whatever deal they want to make on the terms they want, under penalty of death or maiming. Note that it is only compulsion, not coercion, which makes the deal fail.


Or, you know, hire/gate/summon/raise/craft somebody else to overpower the dealmaker - someone that didn't sign any contract. When an Archdevil promises not to kill you, he doesn't promise the several thousand pit fiends in his service will not.
Ah, but that's where the wording of the feat is important: if you are acting to obtain your due in the contract, you get the benefits. It doesn't matter whether others signed it or not. The archfiend sends his bone devils to skewer you on their stingers, and, as long as they act to oppose you obtaining your due from their master (who signed the contract), they get no saves or SR, you have your bonuses to saves and SR (equal to the CR of the archfiend!), etc.

[Nettlekid]

Magical identity theft via succubus shapeshift. If the succubus makes a deal in your name while looking like you, there will be people trying to enforce contracts you never made - and they'll be convinced you did.

Illusion. Someone goes to a contract-making and casts a (silent+stilled) illusion that conceals what he's actually saying while he's saying something else. So he could sound like he promised to "work for 8 hours in exchange for X gold" while what he really promised is "I'll kill you and take X gold from your corpse". So when he makes the murder attempt and you try to defend yourself, you find out you've agreed to your own death!
Or more simply, someone has an invisible imp in their shoulder. When "promising" stuff, he's just pretending to speak while the imp produces the voice. He never swore anything (the imp did) so he isn't bound.

Magical compulsion to force someone to invalidate a contract. I.e. someone sworn to protect someone else is dominated into killing them instead.

And so on and so forth. In a magical world, trying to uphold the Law is a nightmare with the number of things that can warp reality itself so that someone's actions are not really their actions.


Bluff of 30+ vs Sense Motive of 10: "This IS the deal you're looking for"

Of course they can overpower the dealmaker. They stab him in the back before they break the contract. It's not as if a contract about killing target C specifically prevents them from killing dealmaker A. And after they kill dealmaker A, the "protection" of the feat is rather irrelevant.
Or, you know, hire/gate/summon/raise/craft somebody else to overpower the dealmaker - someone that didn't sign any contract. When an Archdevil promises not to kill you, he doesn't promise the several thousand pit fiends in his service will not.

People already replied to this pretty fully, so I'll be succinct. For one, we're assuming that the person who's proposing the deal to the other is ACTUALLY Lawful, and wants to keep the deal, and is trying to make the other person keep the deal too, even if they're Chaotic. If the dealmaker is a CE Succubus then yeah, deals aren't going to work, but that's because the Succubus doesn't want it to. If the dealmaker is LN and making a deal with a Succubus in disguise, then it's up to the dealmaker to make sure everything's on the up-and-up, with regard to premises, identities, and hey, the forum favorite of RDAW vs RDAI. At this point it boils down to the kind of lawyering you do when casting a "greater function" Wish spell, but you're LN, this is the stuff you like!

Before the deal is made, you should definitely have True Seeing up and maybe a backup of some kind to make sure Insidious Magic isn't messing with you. Some kind of Mind Blank or Dispel Magic (on the other party) would be good, to make sure they aren't hiding behind (or involuntarily affected by) Charms and the like. Magical and mundane lie-detection (Zone of Truth and a high Sense Motive) would be useful, but if you play your cards right (and phrase a contract appropriately) then them lying doesn't really matter, because it's what they're contracted to that counts, not what they WANT to be contracted to. That's kind of the whole point of this thread, to find a way to make that the case.

Everything you've said falls into one of a few categories:
1) False pretenses on the part of someone making a deal. This ought to render the deal null and void, and it breaks down to being in a situation where no deal is ever made and it's basically just fighting as normal. If someone claims to have made a deal with you and they haven't (so someone was pretending to be you,) it's as easy as asking how the deal was made, because you'll have your own style by now. If we're using what was discussed earlier in the thread, Gate should play a big part in it, and you can't exactly lie to Gate. (If the Succubus was disguised as you, making a deal with someone else, then if they used Gate under false pretenses the Gate ought to register the caster's promise as having been broken and Joe Commoner suddenly has control of a Succubus.) If the Succubus tells someone that they agreed to a deal that they didn't want to agree to, then too bad for the Succubus: They didn't actually agree to that deal. You can't be tricked into saying yes to a question that was never asked. Again, the person who takes that homebrew feat above is the one who should be setting the terms of the deal, not just blithely agreeing to whatever is shoved in front of them.

2) Poor phrasing on the part of the dealmaker. This is where the Wish-lawyering comes in. You're quite right, that if the deal persons A and B make is that person B kills person C, then nothing stops person B from killing C, raising C, and killing A too. But if A includes the clause that person B must bring something of person C's to person A, then person B cannot kill person A until that is done, because (as you'll spell out in the contract) you can't receive an item if you're dead, and the contract is broken if you don't receive the item, and the contract can't be broken. Making it a Thinaun Steel weapon containing C's soul ensures that C can't be brought back to life. The dealmaker should be clever enough to think of all plausible eventualities, and write against them. If person B does not agree to the terms, they know they can't game the system, and it just dissolves into a fight again. If B does agree to the terms, wants to betray A, and realizes he can't, then good for A. A better get out of there quickly when the deal is done, but hopefully he's written in a clause about exactly when the deal ends, and the like. If B agrees to the terms and manages to loophole a way into betraying A anyway, I think A would probably be impressed that he'd been beaten fairly and note not to be so careless next time.

All of this is contingent on hoping that a deal made is absolutely unbreakable once actually agreed upon. Which is what this thread is trying to find a way of doing. That homebrew feat is okay, but still more of a "if you do a bad thing this happens" as opposed to "you cannot do the bad thing." Planar Binding is pretty good if it works, but comes with the limitation of Outsiders only. Maybe discuss the terms of the deal with someone, give them an Amulet of Devil's Ego to hold, and then Planar Bind them? Gate is pretty airtight, and comes with the neat reversal clause, but is expensive.

[NichG]

All this magic is messy, prone to the other side trying to use mechanical loopholes to evade the contract, etc. Want to break a Gate contract? Have a handy AMF, or, since its Instantaneous, have a handy friend with Mindrape ready to remove the mental constraints. The more you try to use mechanical tricks to secure something, the more mechanical tricks will be brought to bear to un-secure it. It also means you have to be pretty high level before this kicks in, or that it costs you a large chunk of WBL (item of at-will Gate? by that point most campaigns have been over for many levels)

But, just using game theory and designing the terms and conditions of fullfilment well, you should be able to get a Balor to keep its word to your Lv1 commoner, at least for deals which make sense to make (e.g. are clearly defined, have deliverables, etc) and for which you actually have something real to offer that the Balor wants (as opposed to Bluff-based 'I'll trade you this piece of straw if you topple an empire for me' sorts of deals where 1 round later the target wises up).

[Nettlekid]

All this magic is messy, prone to the other side trying to use mechanical loopholes to evade the contract, etc. Want to break a Gate contract? Have a handy AMF, or, since its Instantaneous, have a handy friend with Mindrape ready to remove the mental constraints. The more you try to use mechanical tricks to secure something, the more mechanical tricks will be brought to bear to un-secure it. It also means you have to be pretty high level before this kicks in, or that it costs you a large chunk of WBL (item of at-will Gate? by that point most campaigns have been over for many levels)

But, just using game theory and designing the terms and conditions of fullfilment well, you should be able to get a Balor to keep its word to your Lv1 commoner, at least for deals which make sense to make (e.g. are clearly defined, have deliverables, etc) and for which you actually have something real to offer that the Balor wants (as opposed to Bluff-based 'I'll trade you this piece of straw if you topple an empire for me' sorts of deals where 1 round later the target wises up).

I'm not sure that I agree with that. As far as Gate goes, it's a separate entity. The spell is instantaneous, but it probably shouldn't be, because it can keep acting on a creature. You couldn't Mindrape someone back from Flesh to Stone or a Fireball, and I don't think you can Mindrape away the Gate. Likewise, it's Instantaneous, so there's no lingering magic to be suppressed by AMF. It's true, the level problem is an issue, but perhaps using cheaper methods like Mark of Justice, Geas, and the item Contract of Nepthas will tide you over until then.

And true, hopefully the deal is signed on largely good faith alone, but that still doesn't remove the possibility of "I destroy the empire for you and you give me the artifact, only to kill me the next round and take the artifact back." But if you make an unbreakable pact which includes "Neither you nor any of your allies (defined somewhere else) may take hostile action against me within one hour of the artifact transaction being completed" or something more clever than that, then you're pretty golden.

[Vhaidara]

I feel like some form of the Binder's Pact Magic would come into play.

There's also the Pact Domain in Complete Divine/Spell Compendium, which could give some ideas for homebrew pact spells.

[Sheogoroth]

You could cast Mark of Justice twice- the first unacceptable behavior being the breaking of the deal, the second unacceptable behavior being the seeking of freedom from the contract and otherwise a dispelling of the mark.

For a high level caster, just create a greater version of Mark of Justice that bestows Greater Curse.

[Segev]

All of this is contingent on hoping that a deal made is absolutely unbreakable once actually agreed upon. Which is what this thread is trying to find a way of doing. That homebrew feat is okay, but still more of a "if you do a bad thing this happens" as opposed to "you cannot do the bad thing." Planar Binding is pretty good if it works, but comes with the limitation of Outsiders only. Maybe discuss the terms of the deal with someone, give them an Amulet of Devil's Ego to hold, and then Planar Bind them? Gate is pretty airtight, and comes with the neat reversal clause, but is expensive.
I agree with most of the post from which this quote comes, but the premise of this quoted bit strikes me as off. I do not think the context of the OP is asking "how do I make an unbreakable deal" so much as "how do I make the iconic deal-maker character?"

He wants to play Rumplestiltskin or the Crossroads Demon, if I'm reading him right. He wants to play the devil who always comes out ahead and always gets his pay, the G-Man who almost WANTS to trap you into a no-way-to-keep-it contract so that he can exert greater power and control over you in the future. This is less about making the contract unbreakable (which is nice and all, but isn't this archetype) and more about being the deal-maker who everybody hopes they can double-cross or outsmart, but who nobody really can. Even if they have the choice and ability to try.

[NichG]

I'm not sure that I agree with that. As far as Gate goes, it's a separate entity. The spell is instantaneous, but it probably shouldn't be, because it can keep acting on a creature. You couldn't Mindrape someone back from Flesh to Stone or a Fireball, and I don't think you can Mindrape away the Gate. Likewise, it's Instantaneous, so there's no lingering magic to be suppressed by AMF. It's true, the level problem is an issue, but perhaps using cheaper methods like Mark of Justice, Geas, and the item Contract of Nepthas will tide you over until then.

Except that those don't really do the job, so long as the payout for betraying you is larger than the cost for getting them removed/suffering through them.

That's my point - if you rely on some mechanical trick to enforce the contract, then the threshold for betrayal is always the same: can they manage to circumvent your defenses, and how much does it cost?



And true, hopefully the deal is signed on largely good faith alone, but that still doesn't remove the possibility of "I destroy the empire for you and you give me the artifact, only to kill me the next round and take the artifact back."

Not good faith. There's no good faith between a Lv1 Commoner and a Balor. You can usually design some sort of system of payout/exchange that enforces the good behavior of both parties because the key element of a deal (rather than, say, blackmail) is that both sides desire something out of the deal.

To safeguard your life, you just have to arrange the deal such that the other side cannot prosper if they kill you as part of the goings-on.

In the Balor case (I do not know why the Balor is afraid of a Lv1 Commoner, but I'm willing to go with that I guess), this is as simple as having the drop be set up in such a way that the Balor can retrieve the artifact remotely and/or get Planeshifted away immediately after receiving it.

The bigger issue is guaranteeing payment, since one thing (destroying an empire) sort of has to be done to completion and the second thing (receiving a particular item) is sort of a one-time event so it can't be divided up. The best way to do it in a case like this is to involve a neutral third party who both sides can trust and who has a long-term reputation to uphold. For example, leave the artifact with the Guvners in Sigil to be released to the Balor on the condition that said empire is destroyed. The Guvners might want the artifact, but taking it for themselves costs them the reputation for being epitomes of law.

If the commoner wanted to preserve his own life for a duration after the deal, then trading an artifact for an empire's destruction is probably a bad exchange. He needs the Balor to depend on his continued existence long after the deal is done. So in order to do that, he can request collateral from the Balor in the form of some secret that the Balor does not want to get out, and make it so that upon death-by-Balor that secret would be released. The Balor knows that the commoner does not stand to gain from releasing the secret (since then it'd be open season on the commoner), and while he might be able to get someone else to kill the commoner, at that point he's taking a risk with his secret and for very little real gain - he's a Balor, he might do it anyhow, but it depends how painful the release of the secret would be. The bigger issue would be if the Balor lied in providing the collateral, so you have to look into it, verify the secret, understand its consequences, etc. Due dilligence.

You can't eliminate the possibility of a betrayal, but you can try to make it stupid for all sides to betray the others.


But if you make an unbreakable pact which includes "Neither you nor any of your allies (defined somewhere else) may take hostile action against me within one hour of the artifact transaction being completed" or something more clever than that, then you're pretty golden.

Except that I'm not convinced there's actually such a thing as an unbreakable pact anywhere in the rules, including Gate, and especially in actual play situations rather than theoretical RAW discussion. Would a DM allow a Wish to negate the lingering manipulation of Gate even though its not on the safe list? Quite possibly! Its a murky area, but there's nothing saying that Wish can't do that.

Not to mention that once you invoke Gate and other rules-based thing, circumventing the intent of the contract by locating loopholes in the wording becomes a thing, and thats basically impossible to stop.

[Mootsmcboots]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but I'm in a hurry so I didn't read all the prior posts.

What about a beauty and the beast magic rose situation. A magic item, that with each action the PC takes which goes against the agreement, the item takes it's toll. Maybe lowers a stat each time, or there are only x number of charges/petals/doohickeys and one falls off each time. If it falls to zero? Death.

This gives the player some freedom still but makes them weigh their decisions heavily.

[Lord Torath]

Tamora Pierce's "Tortall" books have a "Blood Oath." You cut your thumb (or other extremity if you have no thumb) and press it to the contract. If you break it, the gods make your blood boil, killing you most painfully. There are no known methods of preventing this, other than living up to your half of the bargain.

So invent something similar if you're the DM, or ask your DM for something similar if you're a player.