Can Nightsticks be used for Divine Metamagic Feats?

[yaluckyboy09]

So one of my players is throwing a fit over another player using a bunch of Divine Metamagic Feats with Nightsticks

So can Turn Attempts from Nightsticks be used for Divine Metamagic and do multiple Nightsticks stack?

[tyckspoon]

The answers are yes and most probably yes, by RAW, although the intent of them may not have been to stack. They definitely do work to power Divine feats, tho. There's absolutely nothing about them that says otherwise - they give you extra Turn Undeads, you can use them for whatever Turn Undeads are used for.

[eggynack]

Yeah, that pretty much covers it. General consensus is that they stack, but there's a decent chunk of folks that think they don't. I would advise coming to some consensus about how you fellows want it to work, based upon the power level of the game you're playing, and just general preference. If you are just curious about the base rules though, it's probably a yes.

[yaluckyboy09]

Thanks guys

I was thinking that's what it was, I just needed some confirmation

[Yogibear41]

Yes they work for powering the feats, but I did read that multiple nightsticks do not stack, basically you get 4 extra turn attempts if you have 1 nightstick, and 4 extra turn attempts if you have 100 nightsticks.


http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1292291


This has a link to a non-existent page about some ruling that was made, so really its up to the DM I suppose, but if I were him I would go with the 1 nightstick limit just to keep things from getting ridiculous.

[Segev]

How I've always argued it, and what I feel is an accurate and close reading of the RAW, is that nightsticks increase your maximum number of turn attempts per day by 4 when wielded. This means that, yes, if you are holding two nightsticks, you have +8 turn attempts over your normal limit.

However, nowhere are nightsticks listed as charged items that store turn attempts. They specifically buff your number of turn attempts per day. It's the difference between bonus hp and temp hp: the latter add on top and are lost first. The former are lost last, so your barbarian whose con dropped due to losing rage can go below 0 hp when he loses those extra hit points.

Let's say you've normally got 6 turn attempts per day. You expend them. Then you pick up a night stick! You now can make up to 10 turn attempts in that day! This means you have 4 more you can make! You pick up a SECOND nightstick and hold it in your other hand, so now you have up to 14 for the day; you have 8 unspent!

You go ahead and spend them on divine metamagic, because you can. Now, you put down those sticks. You've got a maximum of 6 turn attempts you can make in a day once more. You've already made 14 turn attempts today. You therefore cannot make any more, because you have no turn attempts left.

If you pick up a new pair of night sticks, it still only lifts you back up to a maximum of 14 turn attempts per day. You've made 14, so you still can't make any more. The new pair aren't holding another 4 each; they each just buff your maximum number for the day.

You CAN cheese this, still, but it requires growing extra limbs with which to wield more of them, and that's getting to a level of effort that probably balances out the bonuses.

[Bloodgruve]

As a DM I limit Night Sticks to one set of 4 extra turns daily regardless of how many you have. I personally don't believe they were intended to fuel metamagic. I put it in the same category as 'similar bonus types don't stack'.

Blood~

[Jeff the Green]

You CAN cheese this, still, but it requires growing extra limbs with which to wield more of them, and that's getting to a level of effort that probably balances out the bonuses.

No it doesn't. You need to possess the rod, not hold it. It can hang at your belt and still function, probably even hang out in your backpack.

[Segev]

No it doesn't. You need to possess the rod, not hold it. It can hang at your belt and still function, probably even hang out in your backpack.

Rods are priced as slotted items. The slot for a rod is "held." If you do not slot an item appropriately, you can't use it.

[Stoneback]

Yeah. If you want crazy nigh-infinite tricks, let them but lots of nightsticks. But if you want to keep them within reason, just allow one.

[eggynack]

Rods are priced as slotted items. The slot for a rod is "held." If you do not slot an item appropriately, you can't use it.
Where does the game actually say that all rods must exist in the "held" slot? I can't find that information, and it seems that nightsticks imply that the exact opposite is true.

[Crake]

How I've always argued it, and what I feel is an accurate and close reading of the RAW, is that nightsticks increase your maximum number of turn attempts per day by 4 when wielded. This means that, yes, if you are holding two nightsticks, you have +8 turn attempts over your normal limit.

However, nowhere are nightsticks listed as charged items that store turn attempts. They specifically buff your number of turn attempts per day. It's the difference between bonus hp and temp hp: the latter add on top and are lost first. The former are lost last, so your barbarian whose con dropped due to losing rage can go below 0 hp when he loses those extra hit points.

Let's say you've normally got 6 turn attempts per day. You expend them. Then you pick up a night stick! You now can make up to 10 turn attempts in that day! This means you have 4 more you can make! You pick up a SECOND nightstick and hold it in your other hand, so now you have up to 14 for the day; you have 8 unspent!

You go ahead and spend them on divine metamagic, because you can. Now, you put down those sticks. You've got a maximum of 6 turn attempts you can make in a day once more. You've already made 14 turn attempts today. You therefore cannot make any more, because you have no turn attempts left.

If you pick up a new pair of night sticks, it still only lifts you back up to a maximum of 14 turn attempts per day. You've made 14, so you still can't make any more. The new pair aren't holding another 4 each; they each just buff your maximum number for the day.

You CAN cheese this, still, but it requires growing extra limbs with which to wield more of them, and that's getting to a level of effort that probably balances out the bonuses.

The problem is that nightsticks don't need to be held in hand, merely carried. The other problem is that nightsticks are same source same bonus, so they wouldn't stack. But otherwise your reasoning is sound.

[Eldaran]

The MIC has this to say about rods:


You cannot activate an item that you do not properly possess,
hold, or wear. A rod or wand must be held in your hand, a cloak
must be worn on your back, and so on. Some items merely require
that you carry them on your person but not specifically worn in
a slot or carried in a hand

So on the one hand it states that rods must be held, but it also says some items need only be in your possession to function and the nightstick itself mentions only possession.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

An even more relevant rule is this;

An unnamed bonus stacks with every other bonus.


So it won't stack with itself no matter how many nightsticks you have or can wield - it's the same effect so no stacking.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, it's a rod that does not stack with itself. You get 4 extra uses per day, not 4 uses per rod, it eats your hand slot when used, and it can be used to do anything a normal turn undead use could do.

[AlanBruce]

Sadly, yes, they do fuel DMM.

I say sadly because it is yet another item and mechanic that adds a bucket of salt to the wound that the fighter as a concept has become.

I ran a campaign awhile back where I foolishly allowed the party cleric to get ahold of as many nightsicks as he could, going with the "worn, not held" clause.

Add in the fact he somehow had 3 or 4 turning pools and nobody bothered to check how it worked, we were looking at a cleric who walked around all day as a giant, with 30-40 Strength, flight, DR, the ability to inflict monstrous damage and an AC in the upper 30's... at around level 11.

Needless to say, the rest of the party was not having as much fun, since Clericzilla curbstomped an encounter designed in a "balanced" way for 4 PCs on his own.

And he still had more turns in store, in case he got dispelled.

Many have said it here and I will give my piece of advice: Keep it to one nightstick per customer. If the cleric wants to get more turns, he or she can always raise their charisma through spells, ability increase every four levels, wish, etc.

It will hopefully maintain a balanced level of play, depending on what other classes are found in your party.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I wonder...

If you're wielding your holy symbol in one hand for the focus requirement and the nightstick in the other, which free hand are you using to actually cast the spell? :smalltongue:
Same applies with wizards and spell components while using rods.

[AlanBruce]

I wonder...

If you're wielding your holy symbol in one hand for the focus requirement and the nightstick in the other, which free hand are you using to actually cast the spell? :smalltongue:
Same applies with wizards and spell components while using rods.

Unless I misread, spells that specifically require your divine focus need not be held- you are usually carrying it around your neck orm, as I have seen in some games, painted on your shield or armor.

For wuzards, the whole taking out the component to cast the spell is all one action- at least that's how I rule it in my games.

They can still hold the rod with a free hand and apply whatever metamagic effect they want.

[ahenobarbi]

I wonder...

If you're wielding your holy symbol in one hand for the focus requirement and the nightstick in the other, which free hand are you using to actually cast the spell? :smalltongue:
Same applies with wizards and spell components while using rods.

IIRC you don't have to hold the stick, it works if you just have it.

[Bloodgruve]

It looks like its considered a Rod which does require being held and has a 'space limitation'. I'm not real good with Item Creation but maybe someone could confirm by the price of the item?

"No space limitation. Multiply item cost by 2"
CL 10th and 7500G

However the description of the item states 'possesses' but we all know how well descriptions were checked against rules in this edition ;)

[JeenLeen]

I don't have the description in front of me, but I think nightsticks explicitly say that they work when in possession, as opposed to held, wielded, or used. From the quote earlier about "not properly possess, hold, or wear", I can see taking it to mean that rods must be held to be considered properly possessed, but I think nightsticks are a case of specific-trumps-general. Generally, rods must be held, but the nightstick text says it need only be possessed.

I forget why the thoughts on stacking. Our group said they should stack, but the DM either ruled they did not or ruled that you had to hold them to use them. (We decided this was not too much of a debuff to the outrageously strong cleric-zilla.) So we got at most a +4/+8 when setting up our divine metamagics, but we could carry another one later one for a different spell or to use to turn undead naturally.

(Again, could be wrong as I'm away from books, but I used this trick a few times and think I remember it well.)

I would recommend saying they do not stack, and you get a +4 bonus to your daily turn undead regardless of how you use it/how many you have. (I think it's okay to have it in your possession, though. If using it to actually just turn undead, it's not a major buff. If using it for divine metamagic, then you probably are getting into Persist territory and thus could use the nightstick during morning buffing instead of in-battle, so it's not a big deal either way.)

[kabreras]

Yeah, that pretty much covers it. General consensus is that they stack, but there's a decent chunk of folks that think they don't. I would advise coming to some consensus about how you fellows want it to work, based upon the power level of the game you're playing, and just general preference. If you are just curious about the base rules though, it's probably a yes.

No thats the general cheese théorycraft concensus.

The general ingame concensus is that they do not stack.

[Brookshw]

Agreed they work for dmm feats. I limit them to one a player. This isn't Wisconsin and I have ranged specialization dmg.

[Segev]

"same source doesn't stack" is pretty persuasive to me, regarding where the overriding applicable RAW lies. (I will note that this represents a change in my thoughts on the matter; I had thought they would stack as long as you could properly wield them all simultaneously.)